Graded stakes committee . . .

[Bobby]

what a joke . . . .

Per Arkansas Dem-Gazette, Andrew Schweigardt, sec of the graded stakes committee, said the the comm. felt the Ark Derby "wasn't quite there yet."
To RETURN to GI status . . .

2005 ark derby - included of course Afleet Alex winner of Preakness and Belmont.

Flower alley - 2nd AR Derby, winner of GI travers, GII Jim Beam, and game 2nd in BC classic

Andromeda's Hero - 3rd AR derby, 2nd in the Belmont.
Real Dandy - 4th in AR derby won WV Derby(G3) at MNR.
Rush Bay - 7th, won GIII Jefferson Cup
Wild Desert - won Canada's KY derby.

2004 AR Derby

Smarty Jones - first
Borrego - GI pacific classic and GI jockey club gold cup
Purge - GI cigar mile

2003

St Laim - 7th, won of course BC Classic this year and 3 other GI stakes.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Did you CC the committee?
Is there a required correlation between stake grades and purse size?

[Bobby]

YEa, its ridicoulous.

Its a 1 million dollar race. Absolutely no reason why it should not be a GI race. Look at the names up there. Some big ones in recent years


To be fair, there is a story behind this . . . OP owner Cella got mad at GR stakes comm when they dropped the Apple Blossom to a GII. OP ignored graded stakes from then on, at least until Smarty Jones. He also, in 1990, took out an advertisement in the DRF that "chided" the commitee, per Arkansas Dem-Gaz.

[Speed Figure]

One thing I know is, the Santa Anita derby should be a G2. That race has been weak the last 4 years. :ThmbDown:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Article about Oaklawn ownership history; 2005 Eclipse merit award- first to a racetrack. I guess the NTRA still likes them! :jump:

[DrugSalvastore]

One thing I know is, the Santa Anita derby should be a G2. That race has been weak the last 4 years. :ThmbDown:

They should rename it the Jeff Mullins Derby---since he's won the last three runnings with impossible longshots!

He also was 3rd in the race four years ago with Lusty Latin--and really, that horse ran good enough to win that day, if he had more favorable circumstances.

All four of those horses (Lusty Latin, Buddy Gill, Imperialism, and Buzzards Bay) could have been bought quite cheaply as 2-year-olds. Neither one looked that promising until Mullins got a hold of them.

I'm out of Pennsylvania at last.

[cj]

...All four of those horses (Lusty Latin, Buddy Gill, Imperialism, and Buzzards Bay) could have been bought quite cheaply as 2-year-olds. Neither one looked that promising until Mullins got a hold of them.


They all could (or will be able to) have been bought cheaply as 4 year olds too! :)

[cj]

The Arkansas races definitely deserve the G1 status after the last couple years.

One thing, anyone notice how well the horses Smarty Jones routinely crushed did this year? Purge, Borrego, Eddington, Rock Hard Ten come to mind.

[Indulto]

SF,

The KY Derby finishes of Giacomo, Don’t Get Mad, Buzzards Bay and Wilko suggest that the 2005 SA Derby was the strongest prep race and should remain a G1. 2004 SA Derby winner, Castledale, and runner-up, Rock Hard Ten, both won G1 races in 2005.

Mullins seems to have mastered 1-1/8 m, but keeps coming up short at 1-1/4 m.

I agree with those who feel the Oaklawn Derby deserved G1 status next year. IMO the Hollywood Gold Cup should have been downgraded to a G2.

[GMB@BP]

One thing I know is, the Santa Anita derby should be a G2. That race has been weak the last 4 years. :ThmbDown:

yea, you are right there, only had the rock hard ten and this years derby winner.....what a junk race!

[Valuist]

The committee has rocks in their head. But that could be a good thing. If you keep charts, you know a race like the Arkansas Derby should've been a Grade 1, and a Grade 1 like the Prioress was weaker than many strong classified allowance fields. Yeah, I'm sure the connections of Acey Deucey were happy they got their "Grade 1 win" (on paper, not in reality) but its very deceptive to blindly believe the grading designations.

[Speed Figure]

yea, you are right there, only had the rock hard ten and this years derby winner.....what a junk race!Just because the race had the derby winner does not make it a strong race. He was 50/1 in the derby.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"The purpose of the American Graded Stakes Committee is to provide owners and breeders of Thoroughbred horses a reliable guide to the relative quality of Thoroughbred bloodstock..."
To push breeding. Have recent winners of the AR Derby been cheap or fancy expensive bred?

[Bobby]

AA was bought for 75K at Fasig Tipton. smarty not sure. I think he was just a homebred. The chapmans owned the mare, Ill Get Along, Smarty's momma!

Northern Afleet is no Storm Cat, but he's not bad. Neither is Elusive Quality.

Yea, some of the graded races are just mediocre allowance fields

[kenwoodallpromos]

Aside from everyone loving horses, breeders love prestigious breeding and want graded stakes to promote expensive horses. Owners want purses. Trainers and jockeys want flat rate + % of purses. Betters want all they can get for their $$. Tracks and racing businesses want fans and more money flowing everywhere.
So the common denominator goals are big purses and more fans and betting. That means more bigshot horses in big races at major tracks.

[Snow Chief]

Why doesn't the committee grade races at the year's end? As people on this thread point out, just because a committee says a race is a grade one doesn't mean it will attract a G1 field. Meanwhile, tracks like Oaklawn, that want to try to attract some nice horses by putting up good money, lose them to a race New York with half the money. Unfortunately, owners can boost the value of their horses by running in races with this committee's "blessing" and thus skew the scale toward established racing circuits that they approve of.

[foregoforever]

I hate to be contrary, but how many Grade 1 Derby preps do there need to be? The grades on the series are already inflated. The trainers of some of the horses you mentioned made a point of saying that they went to Oaklawn to take a less demanding route to the Derby.

And I don't think that citing Borrego and St Liam makes sense. At the time they ran in the La Derby, neither was anything special. St Liam finished 7th, beaten 15 lengths! Achievements one or two years later, when the horse has matured and much of the competition has retired, shouldn't reflect favorably on earlier races.

I was amazed that with more and more mediocre Grade 1 fields, more top horses retiring early, and the between-race interval for top horses getting longer, the committee saw fit to increase the number of Grade 1 stakes. The number should be going down.

[GMB@BP]

Just because the race had the derby winner does not make it a strong race. He was 50/1 in the derby.

and just because he was 50/1 does not make it illigit as well.

the santa anita derby has proven, over a long period of time, that it is a grade 1 race.

[GMB@BP]

Why doesn't the committee grade races at the year's end? As people on this thread point out, just because a committee says a race is a grade one doesn't mean it will attract a G1 field. Meanwhile, tracks like Oaklawn, that want to try to attract some nice horses by putting up good money, lose them to a race New York with half the money. Unfortunately, owners can boost the value of their horses by running in races with this committee's "blessing" and thus skew the scale toward established racing circuits that they approve of.

that works well with the breeding and racing industry......can you imagine trying to plot out a plan for your top class horse, executing it, like say lost in the fog did, then have them come back and say "well no one showed up when you raced, were downgrading them all to listed races".

[Indulto]

SF,

Your suggestion that Giacomo’s final odds diminished his accomplishment in winning the KY Derby, thus reflecting poorly on the strength of the SA Derby field deserves rebuttal.

A lot of bettors thought Bellamy Road was the second coming of Secretariat (myself included) and made him the favorite thereby inflating the odds for all other entrants. Many others simply failed to recognize or appreciate Giacomo’s conditioning foundation established through competition.

The fact remains that he beat 19 of the highest earning 3-year-olds including several prior and subsequent G1 winners and the four SA Derby “refugees” finished 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th in a field of 20.

[Bobby]

\

And I don't think that citing Borrego and St Liam makes sense.


Ill give you St Liam but . . .Borrego NO WAY.


To be honest, the graded fields out west are overrated, FOR THE MOST PART. Your lookin at 7, 8 horse fields that many times the ponies ran out of the money in other graded contest.