Had it with Pinnacle as a primary out [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

RaceIsClosed

11-27-2005, 10:06 PM

Pinnacle is the best offshore horse outlet, without question, but they can be a primary out only for the recreational horseplayer. A pro will usually miss out on enough wins to make the rebates dubious at best. It's best to keep Pinnacle as a backup out and a rebate out for certain types of bets, but if you're playing seriously, you should get an account at BRIS or Phonebet because of:

1. What's my name? Pinnacle should keep a clock running and check the off time for each race, then void wagers as necessary. Odds are any true sharp action won't be left to the last second anyway.

2. Bad scratch info. Your 33-1 shot wins the first race, and you're "alive" with the 8-5 ML favorite in the second, only you forgot to check and he's SCRATCHED, with the 2-1 second choice now at 4-5, making for a $130.80 double you didn't have, plus a $562.00 pick-3 (what, me bitter?).

3. Busy sports days and "big games." They take an hour to grade in some cases, and they do make occasional errors (I have a theory that they do this to see if you're paying attention and are a sharp), plus you get connection errors more often than usual, and you have to check the bet after it goes through to see if it was put in.

4. "Insufficient balance" hijacks your existing balance until it clears the system four minutes later, like if you bet $18 and only have $17, you won't be able to touch your money for another five minutes.

5. Your 26-1 shot won the 10th at Philadelphia Park, keying a $1,500 pick-3 and $2,000 superfecta that you didn't have because you couldn't get down.

6. That 99-1 shot you wanted to wheel in all three slots in the 10-cent super scored, and would have let you clean out the pool, but Pinnacle doesn't take those.

7. More than one withdrawal a month is $15.00 a shot. Boo!! Hiss!!!

8. If you win on a regular basis, your money picks up groupie money along the way back to the mutuel pools. You effectively become a free tout for them.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 10:47 PM

8. If you win on a regular basis, your money picks up groupie money along the way back to the mutuel pools. You effectively become a free tout for them.

What makes you think that every other online wagering site doesn't do the same thing? And if the company itself doesn't have a policy to piggyback the wagers of its best customers, what makes you think some enterprising employees with access to betting info can't resist this kind of "investment" opportunity.....

Hell, people fixed the BC Pick 6 one year. What makes you think these same kind of folks wouldn't look up the most successful players and tag along?

It's a risk all winning players take when they bring their action to a place that has the capability to track them....

BetHorses!

11-27-2005, 11:11 PM

enterprising employees with access to betting info can't resist this kind of "investment" opportunity.....

Very well said and it goes for sports too

oexplayer68

11-28-2005, 01:24 AM

You forgot to mention the $14000 superfecta you hit, that only paid out 5K plus your base bet due to max-race payout limits.:mad:

Seriously though, while a do agree with many of your points, I totally disagree that Pinnacle is not for the serious player. I do this for a living, day in and day out, and there is no way I could ever make the money I do with BRIS, Youbet, ect.

The rebates are going to be a huge safety net for most players, most especially people who bet more than a thousand or two per week. Couple that with the fact they're booking your wagers until your at least six figures ahead, and it's difficult to even calculate how much greater your payoffs are.

While Pinnacle is far from perfect, I do think they are the best alternative out there. They pay out within an hour normally, no matter when you make a withdrawal. Many times I'll withdraw money at 3:00AM in the morning, and it's always in my Neteller account right away. The few problems I've had with their site pale in comparison to what I've recently experienced at one of their competitors. I have also found their CSR's to be both extremely prompt and helpful in the event of problem/error.

Your points are definitely well taken, but let's face it, these aren't new issues, and there are certainly ways to get around them. I believe Pinnacle is probably the best thing to come around for me personally, and any other horse player no matter what their level of play.

midnight

11-28-2005, 01:43 AM

kingfin66

11-28-2005, 02:02 AM

I agree with some of your points. I recently got torched by a race closing early and posted in detail about it. You failed to mention that they don't report signers to the IRS. Oh wait, that would be a positive. Seriously though, there are good points and bad points with using Pinnacle or any other offshore book. The bottom line is that there is some risk involved, but there is much less risk with using Pinnacle than other services. See another post on PA about how one offshore book has taken over a full day to grade a wager. Now that is ugly.

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 06:47 AM

Seriously though, while a do agree with many of your points, I totally disagree thatPinnacle is not for the serious player. I do this for a living, day in and day out, and there is no way I could ever make the money I do with BRIS, Youbet, ect. The rebates are going to be a huge safety net for most players, most especially people who bet more than a thousand or two per week. Couple that with the fact they're booking your wagers until your at least six figures ahead, and it's difficult to even calculate how much greater your payoffs are.

If you're that much of a pro why aren't you grabbing the 10-12 percent rebate through a shop like RGS?

In my post, I said that Pinnacle is a great offshore for horses, but that they shouldn't be the *only* out for a professional. I love the rebates as much as the next guy, but there are too many situations in a day where I wind up needing BRISBET. Ideally, a player should have both.

11-28-2005, 06:58 AM

1. What's my name? Pinnacle should keep a clock running and check the off time for each race, then void wagers as necessary. Odds are any true sharp action won't be left to the last second anyway.

The best way to do it, and I've been hounding them to do this for a month, is to simply "Grey Out" a race once it is closed.

2. Bad scratch info. Your 33-1 shot wins the first race, and you're "alive" with the 8-5 ML favorite in the second, only you forgot to check and he's SCRATCHED, with the 2-1 second choice now at 4-5, making for a $130.80 double you didn't have, plus a $562.00 pick-3 (what, me bitter?).

I do not, and won't ever, get my scratches from Pinnacle.

3. Busy sports days and "big games." They take an hour to grade in some cases, and they do make occasional errors (I have a theory that they do this to see if you're paying attention and are a sharp), plus you get connection errors more often than usual, and you have to check the bet after it goes through to see if it was put in.

I haven't seen this happen in a few months, seems they have made improvements. There was a month where it was really bad, maybe September?

4. "Insufficient balance" hijacks your existing balance until it clears the system four minutes later, like if you bet $18 and only have $17, you won't be able to touch your money for another five minutes.

If you only have $17 in your account, you have bigger problems than where to place a bet! :D

5. Your 26-1 shot won the 10th at Philadelphia Park, keying a $1,500 pick-3 and $2,000 superfecta that you didn't have because you couldn't get down.

No reason to bet these at the last second. Further, I wouldn't play too many 26-1 shots in exotics at Pinnacle at Philly do to limits which are well published.

6. That 99-1 shot you wanted to wheel in all three slots in the 10-cent super scored, and would have let you clean out the pool, but Pinnacle doesn't take those.

No argument there, not sure why they won't do this, though I imagine it has to do with risk.

7. More than one withdrawal a month is $15.00 a shot. Boo!! Hiss!!!

Plan accordingly

8. If you win on a regular basis, your money picks up groupie money along the way back to the mutuel pools. You effectively become a free tout for them.

The very same thing could happen at YouBet, or BRIS, or with your local teller.

andicap

11-28-2005, 09:21 AM

I keep two or three accounts. Pinnacle, Brisbet and Ct OTB with most of my betting done at Pinnacle, enough at Brisbet to insure the free video and CT OTB for when I'm at the track or simulcast and bet by phone on my account rather than carry cash.
If I run into some problems at Pinnacle I always have BRISbet open to make the play. I just make sure I don't wait too long to drop a bet especially on a longshot.
Besides why bet at 2 minutes to post on a longshot. What? You want to see if the horse goes off at 30-1 instead of 20-1?
The last minute decisions are on the 4-1 types you want to see if they go to 3-1 or 5-2. Unfortunatly it doesn't matter how long you wait because the odds are most likely to change after betting has closed anyway.

11-28-2005, 09:37 AM

You hit the nail on the head Andi, its a crapshoot anyway and not worth the aggravation of trying to bet at the last second. Stick to horses 4-1 and up, and 95% of the time your horse will stay the same or go up. You can get some huge jumps. I've bet horses at GLD at 8-1 with 1 MTP and received a $42 payout. I bet one yesterday in the feature at Crc that was 6-1 with 1 MTP and paid $23.

If you are betting short prices, just assume they will drop two or three clicks at the smaller tracks, by which I mean anyplace not NYRA or Churchill. Even SoCal seems to be infected by the late odds drops, maybe due to the short fields. By the way, kudos to NYRA who seem to have very few big odds changes after the bell has rang for whatever reason.

hurrikane

11-28-2005, 10:46 AM

Pinnacle stops booking your bets after you've beaten them for anything that makes them believe that you're a net winner. They stopped booking mine before I even got to five figures ahead. Now I don't mind if they put mine into the pools, as long as I still get the 7% rebate, but the other problems (closing races early, etc.) made it more aggravation than worth the effort, and that's why I left a few weeks ago and only play with them when I'm betting well in advance of the race.

I have been with pinnacle for 2 yrs and have been a consistant winner throughout that period. I have emptied a few pick 4 pools and cost them some money on one that no one in the mutual pools won.
They have never refused a bet from me.
I was using ATR to do auto betting and in the process they ended up dumping some bets that should have been made. They said the reason was that the server was busy when the program tried to place the bet.
Frankly I did'nt care why and went back to betting based on mlo instead of the odds board. Thats for daily spot plays. In the end it didn't cost anything and actually missed more losing bets than winning. I just don't like doing business that way.

Curious about one thing though. How many professional players have problems with making and $18 bet with only $17 in their account?
I"m guessing they think you should sit down for 5 min and think about what you're doing.

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 12:32 PM

I have been with pinnacle for 2 yrs and have been a consistant winner throughout that period. I have emptied a few pick 4 pools and cost them some money on one that no one in the mutual pools won.
They have never refused a bet from me.
I was using ATR to do auto betting and in the process they ended up dumping some bets that should have been made. They said the reason was that the server was busy when the program tried to place the bet.
Frankly I did'nt care why and went back to betting based on mlo instead of the odds board. Thats for daily spot plays. In the end it didn't cost anything and actually missed more losing bets than winning. I just don't like doing business that way.

Curious about one thing though. How many professional players have problems with making and $18 bet with only $17 in their account?
I"m guessing they think you should sit down for 5 min and think about what you're doing.

I often remove my money from places where I can bet it as a self-protective measure. If I didn't win long-term, I'd easily be in GA. I bet every race and do so quite compulsively until I have nothing left to play with. Luckily, I score a good ROI so that's actually a plus most of the time. I think all pros are compulsive gamblers at heart. Sometimes I leave rebate money only in there just to see if I can roll it up again, and also with the fee for withdrawals, I might yank out more than I otherwise would have to get the one freebie that they give. With BRIS, I can play with a more stable bankroll and get it out of there more easily without cost.

I love your portrait of the professional gambler as this creature of discipline and prudence, but the reality is often very different.

Jeff P

11-28-2005, 12:47 PM

posted by RaceIsClosed - I often remove my money from places where I can bet it as a self-protective measure. If I didn't win long-term, I'd easily be in GA. I bet every race and do so quite compulsively until I have nothing left to play with. Luckily, I score a good ROI so that's actually a plus most of the time. I think all pros are compulsive gamblers at heart. Sometimes I leave rebate money only in there just to see if I can roll it up again, and also with the fee for withdrawals, I might yank out more than I otherwise would have to get the one freebie that they give. With BRIS, I can play with a more stable bankroll and get it out of there more easily without cost.

I love your portrait of the professional gambler as this creature of discipline and prudence, but the reality is often very different. This post clearly shows a complete lack of discipline. I'd even say it borders on irrationality. IMHO, discipline is the one quality that separates the true pro from the recreational player.

You say you have an overall positive roi. That's a great starting point. Most players can't truthfully claim to do this. But you also say that you bet every race and do so quite compulsively until you have nothing left to play with. Try and re-frame this in the context of using a pct of bankroll or Kelly approach to your betting. If you can do this you'll find that a losing streak won't ever come close to emptying your account.

-jp

.

BetHorses!

11-28-2005, 02:13 PM

:ThmbUp: I really thought they did good on Breeders Cup Day as far as increasing limits and rebate in NY.

Also some advice for next year, my friend invested $20,000 in the pick 6 at Pinny (750,000 limit payout) he only needed to do it for $1 and invest $10,000 since they take dollar Pick 6's

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 02:20 PM

posted by RaceIsClosed - This post clearly shows a complete lack of discipline. I'd even say it borders on irrationality. IMHO, discipline is the one quality that separates the true pro from the recreational player.

You say you have an overall positive roi. That's a great starting point. Most players can't truthfully claim to do this. But you also say that you bet every race and do so quite compulsively until you have nothing left to play with. Try and re-frame this in the context of using a pct of bankroll or Kelly approach to your betting. If you can do this you'll find that a losing streak won't ever come close to emptying your account.

-jp

.

What lack of discipline? I get my money out of harm's way as much as possible. I'd call that extremely disciplined. Why should I leave a thousand dollars in a betting account where I might get stupid with it at the wrong time?

Yes, my ROI is positive. Doesn't mean it's always positive. One reason it's positive is that I force myself to physically deposit money before I make bets. I don't bet every day of the week or every week of the year. If I did that, I'd have a negative ROI. When I play, however, I'll bet anything that moves and set stop-loss limits on the day's action ("nothing left to play with"). If so "few" people achieve a positive ROI, who are they to tell me to operate differently?

The flaw in the Kelly approach is that past performance does not reliably predict future performance. I believe a "half-kelly" approach may take that into account. Still, I find the best money management is to just take my best shot at the greatest amount of money involving horses I give the best chance to win the race to (meaning that "value" isn't enough; the horse has to be the top rated horse as well, and with a top trainer I'd bet blind anyway).

My approach is not undisciplined, but more of a "roll with the punches" philosophy in a game where four figures can easily hinge on the bob of a head, as it did for me at CD the other day. What's a professional anyway other than a guy on a winning streak that may or may not continue? Focus on picking winners, bet more when the price is good, and the money management stuff usually takes care of itself.

Dave Schwartz

11-28-2005, 02:44 PM

RaceClosed,

I think all pros are compulsive gamblers at heart. ... I love your portrait of the professional gambler as this creature of discipline and prudence, but the reality is often very different.

Personally, I know a dozen or more players who would easily fall into the "professional" category and not a single one that I am aware of could ever be described as "compulsive" in his gambling.

If you have achieved a professional level of play and are still compuslive with your gambling I would say that you have achieved the near-impossible.

Compulsive or not, I congratulate anyone who has achieved a positive expectation and held it for any length of time.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PaceAdvantage

11-28-2005, 03:26 PM

hurrikane

11-28-2005, 03:37 PM

as I said in a previous post by race....I smell a rat

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 03:38 PM

I would just as soon not want to have to move six figures from offshore to the US if I can avoid it.

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 03:42 PM

Either RaceClosed is conveying himself poorly in this written online medium, or he/she is setting us up for a big ol' leg pulling later on down the road (or is it happening already....it's difficult to say)

I see a dozen guys here claiming to be pros who keep quiet about the specifics of what they do. One of the limitations of a forum like this is you can share some general knowledge, but no pro is going to share his bread and butter. That limits how helpful this or any board can be.

Even if you don't believe me, there are guys just like me out there who do win at this and who don't follow your rules for money management or discipline. In any "workplace" you're going to have guys who live paycheck to paycheck and those with 401(k)s that are loaded. The track is no different. It's not like my horses become weaker all of a sudden because of it.

hurrikane

11-28-2005, 03:42 PM

$17.00 is only 4 figures. :bang:

joeyspicks

11-28-2005, 03:43 PM

from $17 to worrying about moving 6 figures ? ? :lol:

joeyspicks

11-28-2005, 03:53 PM

Dave Schwartz:

"If you have achieved a professional level of play and are still compuslive with your gambling I would say that you have achieved the near-impossible.":bang:

Dave...........Well said again!
.................................................. .......
Near- Impossible to TOTALLY Impossble. NO WAY is what I would say !!

how about a........new book......"compulsive with profits"? ? ?

PaceAdvantage

11-28-2005, 04:54 PM

I see a dozen guys here claiming to be pros who keep quiet about the specifics of what they do. One of the limitations of a forum like this is you can share some general knowledge, but no pro is going to share his bread and butter. That limits how helpful this or any board can be.

Even if you don't believe me, there are guys just like me out there who do win at this and who don't follow your rules for money management or discipline. In any "workplace" you're going to have guys who live paycheck to paycheck and those with 401(k)s that are loaded. The track is no different. It's not like my horses become weaker all of a sudden because of it.

I've just never known anyone who was successful at this game for any significant period of time who also was a self-proclaimed compulsive gambler:

I bet every race and do so quite compulsively until I have nothing left to play with

Maybe I need to get out more...but you lost me with that one....

You're violating all the horseplaying "laws of nature" and getting away with it...more power to you....

Buckeye

11-28-2005, 05:03 PM

Step up to the plate on a neutral field.

Don't play if you don't want to, this is the last thing you're gonna see.

Settle down boys.

JustRalph

11-28-2005, 06:38 PM

it seems to me that there are a ton of professional players popping up around here lately (proclamations if you will) and they are all getting rich..........

did another board shutdown again?

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 06:55 PM

I've just never known anyone who was successful at this game for any significant period of time who also was a self-proclaimed compulsive gambler: Maybe I need to get out more...but you lost me with that one....

You're violating all the horseplaying "laws of nature" and getting away with it...more power to you....

If most of the people recommend these "laws" and most of them don't make money (or they wouldn't all be called liars so much), maybe the laws are wrong.

How many pro gamblers do you actually know? I've known about a half-dozen over the years, and two of them went broke before getting backing from someone to get back into the game. None of them worries much about managing their money and just gets down as much as they can without killing their price. Sometimes their entire bankroll will be in play on a big day.

Besides, since DENIAL is a key symptom of compulsive gambling, maybe these pros are all compulsive and just refuse to see or admit it. The willingness to fight down to one's last dollar is almost a requirement for pros, who are taught to stick it out during bad times, not panic, and work their edge. By definition, if they don't turn it around, they are doing what compulsive gamblers do, i.e., continuing to play constantly while losing.

Btw, I never said I only have $17 in Pinnacle, only that it's possible after a withdrawal to have it. I just have a rule not to have one dime more than I need for betting in an account, because there's no reason for it to be there otherwise, and bad things can happen to it.

Jeff P

11-28-2005, 07:22 PM

posted by RaceIsClosed - ...two of them went broke before getting backing from someone to get back into the game. None of them worries much about managing their money... Assuming each of these so called pros does in fact have a true long term edge, tell me with a straight face you can't see the importance of discipline here. :)

I submit to you that these guys are not the true pros you think they are.

-jp

.

RaceIsClosed

11-28-2005, 07:58 PM

posted by RaceIsClosed - Assuming each of these so called pros does in fact have a true long term edge, tell me with a straight face you can't see the importance of discipline here. :)

I submit to you that these guys are not the true pros you think they are.

-jp

.

They're pros, alright, and had enough favors to call in when they were on a bad streak that they never suffered. The backers wanted a source of future picks so they didn't mind spotting them a few grand until the tide turned, which it did.

I look at it this way: the less money I have to play with, the sharper I handicap, and forcing myself to be sharp is what keeps me sharp, rather than to try to exploit some theoretical 2.6 percent advantage while I sip pina coladas on the beach with my wireless hookup. I can always reload if I want, but I often have a cooling-off period that prevents prolonged losing streaks. Right now I make money about two out of every three days I bet. The last time I won more than a dime in a day I had about $30 to start with. I've had days where I start with $500 and get wiped out in three hours. I just don't factor my account balance into the betting, figuring it'll go up during the winning streaks and down during the losing streaks.

People don't trust those who talk about playing intuitively, but I don't trust those guys who act like Fortune 500 CPAs and say they spend their lives at the track. Sanitized tales of winning with perfect money management are what I find suspect, given how the real world works. What about the guy who won $264,000 on a pick-6 in New York from a $4 ticket? Proper money management would have dictated his not even making the bet.

hurrikane

11-28-2005, 08:54 PM

you keep talking about these professionals that go broke.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but you imply it's no big deal.

Sometimes their entire bankroll will be in play on a big day.

I don't know any succesful pros that would have their entire bankroll out on the line at once. A percent of the bank yes..the whole enchilada...no

I take my hat off to you if what you say is in fact true. Just when you go broke don't call me to put you back in the game.

sly fox

11-28-2005, 09:04 PM

Tom

11-28-2005, 11:03 PM

Seems like RIC knows a lot of pros.
We should be taking notes. I think this guy might the real deal.
Only 14 post and I already know so much more than I did yesterday.

Hosshead

11-29-2005, 09:51 AM

...I take my hat off to you if what you say is in fact true. .Kane, you can put your hat back on, besides it's gettin cold outside ! <g>

RaceIsClosed

11-29-2005, 08:20 PM

QUOTE
I look at it this way: the less money I have to play with, the sharper I handicap, and forcing myself to be sharp is what keeps me sharp,

Little money= good handicapper

Lots of money= lousy handicapper

Makes no sense to me??????

I said the less I have TO PLAY WITH, not the less I have.

I was referring to keeping low balances in my betting accounts deliberately so I force myself to be sharper as a handicapper.

RaceIsClosed

11-29-2005, 08:22 PM

Seems like RIC knows a lot of pros.
We should be taking notes. I think this guy might the real deal.
Only 14 post and I already know so much more than I did yesterday.

This was a thread about the viability of Pinnacle for the serious horseplayer. I wasn't here to teach anything.

Besides, is there a way to use this board to make money that I'm not aware of? I mean something I can do (that isn't redboarded) with the posts here at the track (or OTB) that will ensure me a profit? Unless there is, everyone's the same level of useful here.

frankfig

11-29-2005, 10:17 PM

RaceIsClosed

11-29-2005, 10:26 PM

I have been with them a few months and they are the best i have seen. everybody remembers getting shut out on a winner , but how about all the losing tickets we have saved money on. if you are betting mid-to smaller tracks you should send it in around the 3-4 minute mark and you wont have a problem. i think this guy raceclosed is just another shill for another book bad mouthing the top book in the biz !!!

I don't shill for anyone, and I still say Pinnacle's the best offshore out and the only thing a recreational player needs. I just don't like them as a primary out anymore even with the rebate.

However, for the professional or serious player, there are nagging little problems with them that cause me to no longer feel comfortable unless I also have money in BRIS or Phonebet, or some other US-based outfit that operates like a real racetrack.

I consider the thread of interest because the problems with Pinnacle are offset by a very generous rebate of 7 percent, so one really must take the bad with the good here.