Poker is it good for horse racing?

[Vegas711]

When Canterbury Park first got their card club it was an instant help to their bottom line, a couple of years have since past , the card club with its poker tables is always packed. The indian casinos who also began their card clubs are not seeing the same amount of action, it is not even close. It seems that the tribes patrons prefer the other games where as canterburys prefer poker.

What has happened at canterbury is that their hard core regulars are giving up trying to win at the horses and are instead playing poker. Canterbury last night had less than 75 people playing the simulcasts where as the card club had atleast 300 to 400 people ( it was packed! ). A friend of mine who played the horses for over 15 years at canterbury and who would drive 3 1/2 hours to play the races at Praire meadows when canterbury closed 1992 to 1994, has only been to canterbury 2 times this year.What is he doing? .....playing texas hold em on the internet.

Unlike other tracks Canterbury treats their customers very well, dispite this last year they had a very big decline in their handle. Slot machines just take the small better away from horse racing, Poker takes away the die hard players who are the life blood of this sport.

[JimG]

Vegas 711,

Interesting post. Not sure if there have been any studies done on the topic, but it seems reasonable to me that regular horseplayers would be more apt to become interested in poker than slot machines. Many of us are attracted to horseplaying because we try to solve the handicapping puzzle using our brain and outthink our fellow player. Poker involves a similar mindset. And as we all know, pulling a lever on a slot machine requires no thought.

Jim

[GMB@BP]

they are both games of skill with alot of luck mixed in....lots of similarities.

[Overlay]

they are both games of skill with alot of luck mixed in....lots of similarities.

You're probably thinking of things such as playing "hot" versus "cold" machines, or varying wager sizes according to some plan depending on past results, and so forth. But as far as I am aware -- and unlike poker or thoroughbred handicapping -- there is no systematic way to assure a long-term profit on slots through the application of skill. I'm not saying that it's not possible to make money in the short term, but it's strictly a matter of luck. Results on slots are randomly determined, with a constant negative expectation for the player in terms of the amounts of payouts versus the frequency with which they occur, and anyone who plays them long enough is sure to lose some or all of their money. It seems to me that this would make slots unattractive as a serious betting option both to the kind of people who like poker, and to those who bet primarily on horses, since poker and handicapping pit people against each other, rather than making them buck an unchanging house edge. I may play slots if there's no other game in town, but only with money that I know I can afford to lose, and never with a realistic belief that I can beat the game through skill.

[rokitman]

I believe GMB waa referring to poker and horse racing, not poker and slots.

[blind squirrel]

i just saw that STEVE DAVIDOWITZ is going to
write a POKER column for DRF.....this is not
a good sign for handicappers.

[Red Knave]

When Canterbury Park first got their card club it was an instant help to their bottom line, a couple of years have since past , the card club with its poker tables is always packed. ...
Poker takes away the die hard players who are the life blood of this sport.
FWIW, poker and horses are the only gambling that I'm interested in.

This might make a good poll. "What other gambling venue do you like besides betting on horses?"

[Overlay]

I believe GMB waa referring to poker and horse racing, not poker and slots.

Thanks for setting me straight there. Re-reading GMB's post in context, you're absolutely correct. Sorry for the unnecessary comment. (Apologies to GMB for the misinterpretation, also.)

[midnight]

I made a lot of money off of the slots in 1997-99. They had visual bonus slots then. Not a lot of people knew about them at first. "Cherry Pie", "Diamond Mine", "Temperature Rising", "Baloon Race", "Racing 7's", "Coming Soon" bonuses, etc. Vegas caught on in early 1998, so I went on the road: Mississippi, Ontario, Michigan, the Midwest, etc. It was good until late 1999, then there were too many people doing it. The slot companies did their part to make it tougher: each successive generation of chip was tighter on bonus symbol frequency.

The bonus machines still exist, but it's beaten to death. The machines are tight, and there are about three times as many people looking for plays on them as there are machines to let one of those three grind out a small living.

[classhandicapper]

I play both games and can speak from experience.

Without question, poker is massively easier to beat and has the potential for very significant profits if you get very good. I was beating poker after only 6 months of playing a few hours per week at night after work. All I did was read the David Sklanksy/Ed Miller books (and a few others) on my commute to work and I was prepared enough to win almost as soon as I absorbed it all.

The great thing about poker is that you can move up and down the ranks (stakes) and play against people you are better than. You can become a winner quickly and then slowly raise the stakes as you get better.

In horseracing, you are thrown to the wolves immediately and must compete against very efficient pools with a large take.

When I first discovered poker on the internet, my first impression was that horseracing was in trouble because it's a perfect fit for "thinking" horseplayers and a natural fit for pure gamblers.

One thing that might save racing "from poker" is that there are rebate and other lower take betting options springing up on the internet that are making horseracing a little easier to beat.

Don't get me wrong, I'll always love the great races and follow the sport etc... I can't see myself ever quitting horses, but I could easily see myself cutting back on the horses to weekend bets on the stakes exclusively and spending more time at the poker tables as my skills at the latter improve.

Unless the track take gets lowered enough to make betting on horses more lucrative by opening more real opportunities to bet overlays instead of forcing people to just spin money through the windows, I think racing will slowly lose customers to poker and certainly not attract as many new ones.

[classhandicapper]

i just saw that STEVE DAVIDOWITZ is going to
write a POKER column for DRF.....this is not
a good sign for handicappers.

He and Crist both play a lot of online poker and I'd be willing to bet anything (without even knowing) that they both make more money playing poker than playing horses if the time spent is even remotely similar. Keep in mind that they both practically dedicated their lives to horseracing and in the case of Davidowitz, just recently took up poker.

[Tom]

Being honest, if they had a poker rooom at the track, I would not be watching 80 pound people rinding 1,000 pound animals around in circles all day.


"Shuffle up and deal!" would replace "They're off!" rather quickly.

[cj]

I guess I'm going to have to do some studying on poker. I mean, and I say this without sarcasm, how hard can it be?

[Tom]

I guess I'm going to have to do some studying on poker. I mean, and I say this without sarcasm, how hard can it be?

:cool: What days you going to be at Toga next year? ;)

[blind squirrel]

I guess I'm going to have to do some studying on poker. I mean, and I say this without sarcasm, how hard can it be?

JENNIFER TILLY won a tournament in VEGAS, got a feeling she won't be at
any MENSA meetings.....but i will say that's quite a rack!

[Tom]

When is a pair a full house?

When JT is holding it! :D

[blind squirrel]

When is a pair a full house?

When JT is holding it! :D

youv'e "obviously seen JENNIFER!

[cj]

what self-respecting racing fan hasn't?

[SAL]

Jennifer Tilly's boyfriend is Phil Laak (aka the "Unibomber"), a poker professional that you see on TV. So I'm sure she got a few pointers on playing poker from him. She beat a big field at the WSOP, so I imagine she must be pretty damn good.

[so.cal.fan]

Texas Hold'em popularity has been devastating to horseracing, in my opinion.
I know several former serious horseplayers who have given up the game to study, master and make money at Texas Hold'em.
My own husband, a lifelong handicapper....rarely bets horses anymore, even though he is at the track often (he works there).
His main interest now, is going to Las Vegas several times a year to play poker.
I don't like Las Vegas, never go, and wasn't real keen on him spending so much time there, but I can't complain because he has only lost ONE time (and only a few hundred dollars) in the past 4 years! I am telling the truth.....I was willing to have him go even if he didn't win, because the man works hard all year and really deserves to enjoy himself and spend his money as he wishes.....however, when he goes and brings back hundred dollar bills and puts a few in my purse.....well......the man is a KING :D
Point is.......most smart players can win MORE money on poker than on horses.
Only good news is......you do have to be very sharp and of a certain temperment....to be a good poker player....I do not fit into either catagory....so I will stick with horses.
Still, can horseracing really afford to lose it's very BEST players to the poker tables/tourneys? Can small part time racing fans like me support the game?
I don't think so. We are in trouble.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just remember, Poker is approaching its peak in popularity. There are many people out there playing the game that have no business playing the game....that is what makes it a bit easier to beat nowadays.

Give it a few years....as the newbies who never belonged in the game in the first place start to go broke and quit, the games will start to get tougher and tougher.

I'm not saying poker is going to die anytime soon, but it won't remain such an easy game (for those that take it SERIOUSLY and are DISCIPLINED) forever....unless you never aspire past the $2/$4 table that is....

[cj]

I'm not saying poker is going to die anytime soon, but it won't remain such an easy game (for those that take it SERIOUSLY and are DISCIPLINED) forever....unless you never aspire past the $2/$4 table that is....

I'd stay there if the profits are easy! Why move to tougher competition? Keep in mind, I don't play yet, but if you could make $15 to $20 an hour playing, that would be plenty for me.

[so.cal.fan]

I sure hope PA is right!
Just a passing fad.......
horseracing is still a sport.....those of us who truly love the sport would be very sad if it died out to a riverboat gambling game!

[PaceAdvantage]

I'd stay there if the profits are easy! Why move to tougher competition? Keep in mind, I don't play yet, but if you could make $15 to $20 an hour playing, that would be plenty for me.

Actually, even at $2/$4, it isn't that easy. $15 to $20 an hour is 4 to 5 big bets an hour, which is a VERY GOOD, if not impossible earning rate when you factor in the rake, and at live casinos, tipping....

Although your win rate will go up against softer competition, you will still be subjected to the variance inherently involved in the game. After all, luck still plays a role, even at the $2/$4 level.

Most pros agree that a good player can expect to make just ONE or 1.5 big bets per hour (net profit) in games of $15/$20 and higher....

An interesting article:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=94

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, I didn't necessarily say Poker is a passing fad. Poker has been around for quite some time....lol

It is sure to get less popular at some point....lots and LOTS of newbies are jumping in as if they are giving money away....lots of these folks are going to get burned and will go away, leaving just the good players (sharks) to fight amongst themselves for whatever profits remain....

Sort of like the racetrack.....lol

[Tom]

Nothing gets the old adreneline flowing like a good hand of poker. Not like watching a 3-5 shot wire the field on the inner track at all. Poker is mano-a mano - you look into the other guys eyes, you look for signs, you aren't betting against the crowd, you are playing against HIM (or her) and it just you two at the end. All the while, you are trying to control your tells. And the whole pot is right there in front of you, calling your name, whispering your name.

Ahhhhhh.

[Niko]

Great point Pace, just look at daytrading. A dissimiliar fad that didn't disappear but greatly died down as a lot of people thought there was easy money to made after hearing all the get rich quick stories of the 90's. A lot of those people went bust and even some that greatly profited in the late 90's can't make it anymore. Poker will follow a similar path as the weak hands get shook out but probably not to the same extent.

I can always get people to play Poker but my old horseplaying friends won't set foot in a racetrack anymore except for an occasional day or two of live racing during the year. I've kicked around learning Poker but thought after spending all this time learning horseracing I didn't want to go through another steep learning curve. May not be so steep after all (except for the betting and psychological part which betting on the horses has already prepared me for-somewhat)

[PaceAdvantage]

Poker players, horseplayers, and daytraders are all cut from the same cloth, IMO.

[drareg58]

"Without question, poker is massively easier to beat and has the potential for very significant profits if you get very good. I was beating poker after only 6 months of playing a few hours per week at night after work. All I did was read the David Sklanksy/Ed Miller books (and a few others) on my commute to work and I was prepared enough to win almost as soon as I absorbed it all." - Classhandicapper

Is there any such thing as a poker book slanted towards a handicappers mentality?

[Vegas711]

I would advise people to avoid internet poker, unlike playing against players you can see, how can you be sure that you are getting an honest game?


I hope that poker does die out, otherwise racing may. Yesterday evening at canterbury I counted 46 people playing the simulcasts, from 1992-2004 i am going from memory but it is my best guesse that they had atleast 300 to 400 people on a sat. night. What they have left are hard core players but those which bet very little $. The betters who wagered $100 on a race are gone, instead you find maybe $20 per race. This is what i have been seeing, i may be wrong on somethings.

Their simu handle i read drop something like 35 % this year,for all other years going back to 1995 when they reopened their simu handle never fluctuated more than 2-3 %. It is not looking good for CBY.

[classhandicapper]

I'd stay there if the profits are easy! Why move to tougher competition? Keep in mind, I don't play yet, but if you could make $15 to $20 an hour playing, that would be plenty for me.

If you are a VERY GOOD player playing on an easy table you can average about 3 big bets per 100 hands in the lower limits. ($1-$2, $2-$4). The speed of play at the table varies, but 50 to 60 hands per hour is average. After awhile you can multi-table. I play 3 tables at once at times, but many people play 4 or even more. You don't sacrifice a lot of return that way. When there are account reload bonuses (which is when I usually play), you make an extra few dollars per table as you play raked hands. It's close to being free money during the bonus periods because they are ususally generous enough that you can be a slight loser at the poker and still net profits from the bonus. When you are a winner, collecting bonuses, and multi-tabling it's well worth playing between races.

[classhandicapper]

Well, I didn't necessarily say Poker is a passing fad. Poker has been around for quite some time....lol

It is sure to get less popular at some point....lots and LOTS of newbies are jumping in as if they are giving money away....lots of these folks are going to get burned and will go away, leaving just the good players (sharks) to fight amongst themselves for whatever profits remain....

Sort of like the racetrack.....lol

At that point you are either good enough to continue, drop down in class, or find a new game. Right now though, it's easy money.

[so.cal.fan]

I agree with Vegas on internet poker......I checked it out.....had a REALLY BAD feeling about it.....and PASSED. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[classhandicapper]

I agree with Vegas on internet poker......I checked it out.....had a REALLY BAD feeling about it.....and PASSED. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

I had the same reservations as you. In the Poker forums they discuss collusion and other such issues. It's probably a problem despite the fact that the poker sites have a vested interest in keeping the games honest. They supposedly use software to monitor for "red flags" in the betting and participant patterns. They are making a fortune off the rakes. Some companies are coming public for billions etc.... That would all go away if the sites were proved corrupt. No one would play there anymore. So the interest in keeping games honest is very strong at the larger sites.

The real proof that the games are honest enough is that players like me are winning. If I've been exposed to collusion or any other type of cheating, it hasn't been often enough to prevent me from winning.

By the way, I'm not saying that I'm a really good player. I'm just saying that I've been playing online for the last couple of years and got good enough to win very quickly.

In fact, I would say that if you do the following you will be a winner within 6 months.

1. Read Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones a couple of times.

2. Practice for 2 or 3 months in the lowest possible limits with various sign up bonuses accruing.

3. Read Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller 2-3 times

4. Go to the 2+2 Poker Forum and read/post hand discussions etc...

5. Practice some more

[so.cal.fan]

My husband is a good player, he plays in Las Vegas several days a year.
He immediately didn't care for online poker......when you don't know who you are playing with, can't see their faces and get an intuition about them......he is not interested.
He is a left handed/right brained guy....who goes a lot on his intuitive skills be it horses or poker.....online betting on either doesn't interest him.
Other gamblers have different methods......fair and good, whatever works for YOU.

[drareg58]

Thanks Class for the recommendations.

[Zaf]

What is the takeout on Poker ? What % of the players money is raked out of the pot ???

Z

[superfecta]

Because its easy to make the transition from the good horseplayer to poker player.Very similar process in figuring odds and betting strategy.If you are not disciplined in your betting on horses,you are an easy mark in poker.I was amazed how easy it is to see the same traits in poker players that you see in horseplayers.Ive gotten too deep into poker this year.Almost completely gotten away from the horses.Didnt even bet one race in the breeders cup,didnt take interest in the triple crown either.Done well in local tournys,Ive won several,and am considered a threat at the table,I know this cause I have had people refuse to play against me and have said so to my face.Also have a few oldtimers like to play against me or at least the same table,and they respect my game,or so they say.The poker craze is not good for horseracing.I wish it wasnt this way but it is,at least in the forseeable future.
As for books on poker,unless you are a total newbie,they are just like handicapping books,most are worthless.I would recommend the new ESPN book,The Best Hand I Ever Played,because it gives you some perspective on how others think poker should be played.

[Nikjak]

JENNIFER TILLY won a tournament in VEGAS, got a feeling she won't be at
any MENSA meetings.....but i will say that's quite a rack!
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/report.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/report.php?p=232419)

Actually, she showed considerable "decision skills", winning TWO tournaments (albeit both against the ladies); some of that prowess coming from some heavy tutelage from the poker professional, "The Unabomber".

Jack

[Nikjak]

Vegas711:
I would advise people to avoid internet poker, unlike playing against players you can see, how can you be sure that you are getting an honest game?

--------------------------------------------
Bad advice. And only true experience can show why. The "honest" game argument can apply to the brick and mortar casinos, since colusion is easy if people are so inclined. Two or three people at a table could easily colude, easy to think of the way and the signals.

Online advantages: table changing. This is instant. Of the most important facets of profit in poker is playing at the correct table with the correct players.
Tells: Yes, you can actually pick up "tells" and "patterns" and "inclinations" from the players. Sites also have a "note-keeping" feature, where you can keep notes on your opponents. While, of course, there are no visible tells for you to see, your opponents, likewise, cannot see your tells.
You can play at multiple tables at the same time. My son usually plays in four tourneys simultaneously. He has been playing online for over 6 or 7 years. He is a professional poker player whose main income is from online. I've been playing online for that time period, too, and if I thought for one second that it was not legit, I would have been long gone. Honesty and legitimacy are crucial, as in horse racing.
Depending upon you deposit setup, payouts are instant, or can be mailed to you, and if the amount is of a certain figure, many will Fed-Ex your check, at no cost to you.
Convenience: nothing can compare. Play any time. Play multiple games at once. Tournament selection is HUGE and continuous. There are many promotions and incentives. 24/7
So, wanna play poker? Online's the ticket!

Jack

[dancingbrave]

I think there is a strong overlap between horse racing and poker - similar mind sets and thinking required. So undoubtedly the growth of poker especially online is hurting horse racing.

The biggest factor is that it appeals to the horse racing bettor and gives them more value for their betting dollar. For the average bettor who loses a 15-20% take at the track is just too much and the online poker gives them more fun for the same betting dollar.

Only the die hard horse race bettors like me and many others here will make the effort to find cheaper ways to do the horses.

[Wiley]

What is the takeout on Poker ? What % of the players money is raked out of the pot ???

Z

Anybody know the answer? From the general discussion here it must be far less than the 15% to 20% in racing.

My nephew is a freshman in college and plays in games at school and with friends back home not online, though many of his friends do, live games only. I gave him some info on racing over the years and he plays a few bets with me on the big racing days so I think if I pushed it he might look more seriously into racing too.
The people that look at racing as just gambling and not the sport side also I can see them easily heading to poker which like others mention here looks to me to have a lot of technical similarities to handicapping. I don't necessarily think racing and poker are mutually exclusive meaning since they are similar maybe some poker players could with the proper initiation to the game take up handicapping as well. A major problem is the racing industry as a whole never helps itself in in this area. I personally like the performance and sport element to racing over poker but I am not a day to day player mainly just the bigger race days.

[rokitman]

http://www.onlinepokerfaq.com/guide/rake.html

[Pace Cap'n]

What is the takeout on Poker ? What % of the players money is raked out of the pot ???

Z


On Pokerstars, the maximum rake for a pot of any size is $3.00. At stakes of 100-200 limit poker, the pot can often reach $4,000. The rake % on this pot would be .00075.


For a complete summary: www.pokerstars.com/rake.html (http://www.pokerstars.com/rake.html)

[Zaf]

So then it appears that the takeout on Poker is significantly lower than racing. When will the racing people get it :bang:

Z

[rokitman]

Any day now.