Ultra-Disturbing News Story.... [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

PaceAdvantage

11-24-2005, 03:53 AM

Hundreds of Thoroughbreds killed after racing halted in Beijing (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=59095&subsec=3)
About 600 Thoroughbreds have been killed after racing in Beijing was discontinued in October, Racing Post reports. Thoroughbred Times (http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=59095&subsec=3)

Kevin Connolly, racing director at Beijing racecourse, confirmed some of the killings but said they were not out of line with the typical end-of-season practice of culling.

"All the horses have not been culled. We normally cull at the end of each season, such as retired and injured horses, mares that have not conceived for a number of seasons, the same as most places," Connolly told Racing Post. "Should racing start again, we will [have] more than enough horses to race."

Wow. :mad: :eek: :mad: :confused: :mad: :( :mad:

DerbyTrail

11-24-2005, 05:04 AM

PA,

With their typical Chinese "Darkness at Noon" method of operation, authorites turned around and said yesterday that ONLY 110 were actually culled. "600? did we say 600..? No.. no.. it was 100.. yeah.. 100." Like that would make it better.

I was on "At the Races" on Tuesday and we talked about it. Are you telling me that that in all of China this Connolly couldn't find farms on which to place these horses? Beyond belief. There's been a worldwide outcry and backlash about this.

http://www.thoroughbrednews.co.nz/international/?id=21199

bobbyb

11-24-2005, 06:03 AM

Not Just in China

DISGUSTING PRACTISE

I know of a buyer, just 20 miles from where I live, who picks up race horses from tracks - yes, some of them are injured beyond repair, but there are many others that are not - and off they go to slaughter. He's been at it for over 30 years.
He told me gets more for slaughter than trying to sell to anyone. :mad:

bobbyb

CryingForTheHorses

11-24-2005, 10:14 AM

Tom

11-24-2005, 10:23 AM

Finger Lakes just had a disposal auction - for horses no longer able to race.

Hats off to them - no one gets a horses without a serious background check - no "killers" allowed. Only people willing to give the horses a good home. A year or two ago, someone mis-represented themselves and violated purpose of the sale - the track actually provided for searching out the horses at risk and getting them back.

westbridge

11-24-2005, 10:23 AM

The race track was privately owned by certain businessman from either Hong Kong or Macau. Not government owned.

And guy has no business to start a racetrack to begin with. Betting is illegal in the mainland China. The guy was taking a huge gamble himself. And taking the life of the horses down with his venture. The Irish guy who manages the track said they cannot afford to rehouse the horses.

Sad sight for sure.

PA,

With their typical Chinese "Darkness at Noon" method of operation, authorites turned around and said yesterday that ONLY 110 were actually culled. "600? did we say 600..? No.. no.. it was 100.. yeah.. 100." Like that would make it better.

I was on "At the Races" on Tuesday and we talked about it. Are you telling me that that in all of China this Connolly couldn't find farms on which to place these horses? Beyond belief. There's been a worldwide outcry and backlash about this.

http://www.thoroughbrednews.co.nz/international/?id=21199

kenwoodallpromos

11-24-2005, 11:38 AM

Yes killing at a young age is a shame, especially just because the mare was barren a few years and perfectly healthy.
But each year the Jockey Club numbers show the number of USA starters is double the yearly foal crop. Too many horses.
With many horses "retired" at no older than age 5, and a lifespan of 20+ years, the numbers dictate an overload of ex-racers doing something, or nothing.
As long as owners are willing to buy bred horses and average money spent far outweighs winnings, then there will be horses no one wants to feed.
As I have stated prior, the only answer I have is for the horses to stay healthier to race longer, and to card races for cheap older horses.
What % of maiden or other claiming racea are run just for 2 or 3 year olds?

Tom

11-24-2005, 12:48 PM

......And guy has no business to start a racetrack to begin with. Betting is illegal in the mainland China. The guy was taking a huge gamble himself...

It would be fitting if the chinnese government grabs this SOB and kills him, too. With all the people to DO kill, it would be nice to see this POS added to the list.

PaceAdvantage

11-24-2005, 01:05 PM

Why Wow..Would LOVE to see stats of these poor horses that are killed in the USA...These poor defensless animals get abused all the time.

Why wow? Well, for starters, the cavalier tone of Mr. Connolly's explanation, and the use of the word "CULL"

kenwoodallpromos

11-24-2005, 03:21 PM

Yes, his tone makes it sound like it is no big deal- which is why the concern for how big the problem is here.
"the same as most places".
At least there are conferences beginning to explore the problem here of unwanted horses, headed by the AAEP. And some breeders are helping.

kenwoodallpromos

11-24-2005, 03:31 PM

http://equineextension.colostate.edu/articles/auctionhorses.html.
Condition, color, breed of slaughterhouse horses.

NY BRED

11-25-2005, 05:55 AM

as the bejing tongshun jockey club states that culling is not an unusual
practice for thoroughbreds unable to meet racing standards at their
putrid and pathetic racetrack(s), why not geld and then cull the owners as
well as the racing official at this jockey club?

thoroughbred owners take a necessary financial and psychological risk
in this game , and yes , at certain times must retire their horses or
drop the horse into claiming races or to a racetrack where lower class differences may allow the horse to be competitive and survive.

condoning the murder of 110 defensless horses is criminal
and barbaric.this owner, and the officials of this track should
be brought to justice.

:mad::mad:

Topcat

11-25-2005, 04:00 PM

Starting a race track in mainland China is a better bet then
many think.

While gambling is not officially sanctioned in mainland China it is as popular as smoking. (And just to be clear smoking is very popular there. About 60% of the men smoke there and it provides about 10% of the state revenue.) The Chinese goverment routinely looks the other way on gambling and "unoffical" fees or bribes are thought to be a high as smoking revenue.

As a matter of fact the HKJC advertises for mainland customers,specifically advertises in Bejeing. I've been told mainland China provides a majority of the huge pool money.

THE HKJC says:
" In major cities in the mainland China, you could enjoy our toll free service to place bets by using fixed-line telephone. (IDD charge is waived, the total investment per football bet should be $200 or above during the racing period) The Toll Free Service in China is divided into two geographical areas -- 'North China' and 'South China'.

South China North China
Cantonese Service 10800 152 8881 10800 852 8881
English Service 10800 152 8883 10800 852 8883
Putonghua Service 10800 152 8887 10800 852 8887
South China – refers to 22 provinces and municipalities, including Anhui, Chongqing, Fujian, Gansu, Guangdong (including Shenzhen), Guangxi, Guizhou, Hainan, Hubei, Hunan, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Ningxia, Qinghai, Shaanxi, Shanghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang, Xizang, Yunnan and Zhejiang.

North China - refers to 10 provinces and municipalities, including Beijing, Hebei, Heilongjiang, Henan, Jilin, Liaoning, Neimonggol, Shanxi, Shandong and Tianjin. "

IMHO I see this extermination of horses as an example of cruelty and cruelty comes under one big umbrella. e.g. The way some people treat humans is often the way people treat animals.

While cruelty can be found everywhere I've got to say, at the risk of getting too political, that this is not too much of a surprise in a country that has forced abortions and an estimated 4 to 6 million political prisoners in Laogais. (Think Gulags) The estimated number is according to the Laogai Research Foundation.

kenwoodallpromos

11-25-2005, 05:49 PM

usa football bets in red china?

Topcat

11-25-2005, 06:23 PM

I beleive that is soccer not USA football.

They have a maximum bet on soccer of $50,000-and I think a total one day maximum telebet on horses and football of $500,000.

My point is that it is widely recognized that gambling is considered the national pastime in mainland China.

Zman179

11-26-2005, 10:02 PM

It would be fitting if the chinnese government grabs this SOB and kills him, too. With all the people to DO kill, it would be nice to see this POS added to the list.

Do you honestly believe that a government that will confiscate a newborn baby from their parents if they've previously had a child will give a damn about a race horse being culled? C'mon, we're talking about the Chinese communist government here, an entity that doesn't give a damn about human life let alone that of an animal.

sniezer

11-27-2005, 01:48 AM

JustRalph

11-27-2005, 02:10 AM

sniezer

11-27-2005, 06:50 AM

is there any appreciable difference? I don't see any..........

Huge difference. I don't agree with killing a horse just because they are no longer making money for their owners. I think all racehorse breeders and owners owe it to their horses to find a home for them.

But,if they are going to be killed I would prefer they be put down in a humane fashion. In China the horses were said to be put down by injection.

Over here most,not all, unproductive racehorses are sold for meat. That involves being crammed onto trailers, dropped at killpens and then shipped to slaughterhouses.

When they are at the killpens they have to fight for food,being kicked and bit by the stronger horses. At the slaughterhouse they are shot with a captive bolt system. If the shooter misses on the first try, they rarely try again,they just hang them by a hind leg and cut their throat. They also are pushed through a chute system were they can hear and smell the horses in front of them being killed. All this for a few hundred dollars and to not have to pay to bury or remove the body after a humane injection.

So yes, big difference.

CryingForTheHorses

11-27-2005, 10:30 AM

Huge difference. I don't agree with killing a horse just because they are no longer making money for their owners. I think all racehorse breeders and owners owe it to their horses to find a home for them.

But,if they are going to be killed I would prefer they be put down in a humane fashion. In China the horses were said to be put down by injection.

Over here most,not all, unproductive racehorses are sold for meat. That involves being crammed onto trailers, dropped at killpens and then shipped to slaughterhouses.

When they are at the killpens they have to fight for food,being kicked and bit by the stronger horses. At the slaughterhouse they are shot with a captive bolt system. If the shooter misses on the first try, they rarely try again,they just hang them by a hind leg and cut their throat. They also are pushed through a chute system were they can hear and smell the horses in front of them being killed. All this for a few hundred dollars and to not have to pay to bury or remove the body after a humane injection.

So yes, big difference.

Glad there is someone out there that knows what he is talkin about, Its very easy to yell and vent about what they do in other countries. Time the USA addressed this problem as its WAY out of control,Myself have claimed several horses that never got to race again, I myself cant kill them, Its much better to find them a new caring home and I have!!

Tom

11-27-2005, 10:41 AM

Do you honestly believe that a government that will confiscate a newborn baby from their parents if they've previously had a child will give a damn about a race horse being culled? C'mon, we're talking about the Chinese communist government here, an entity that doesn't give a damn about human life let alone that of an animal.

No, no...I mean they get for running a race track. God knows the chinneses are not human enough to care about any living creatures.

McShell...Hats off to you. This country has a LONG way to go.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 03:23 PM

I don't think we should point fingers at China. Breeding farms in this country cull mares and young horses every year. At least in China they were put down,rather than shipped to a slaughter plant like they do here.

So you guys are trying to lead me to believe that 30% of the USA's racing and breeding population is killed every single year? I find that very difficult to believe. But if you have proof, bring it on.

If not, then the situations don't compare....not in the least....

Remember, they weren't just killing off the injured horses. They were also killing off retired (and presumably HEALTHY) horses and mares that could no longer conceive. I don't doubt that there are some folks in the USA that ship their unwanted horses to the killers (and yes, I know how a slaughterhouse works....I suspect LOTS of people on this board know EXACTLY how the killing process works, from BEGINNING to end)....but to the tune of 30% every year?

Not bloody likely....

46zilzal

11-27-2005, 03:35 PM

So you guys are trying to lead me to believe that 30% of the USA's racing and breeding population is killed every single year? I find that very difficult to believe. But if you have proof, bring it on.

I look after a fellow (nice guy who was hit by a drunk and is now a paraplegic) who is a breeder. I was shocked at the ease he has in putting horses down......many at a time, every year once they are no longer useful in the breeding operation.

Second, as much as our culture does not like it, Asian cultures eat horse meat.

CryingForTheHorses

11-27-2005, 04:45 PM

So you guys are trying to lead me to believe that 30% of the USA's racing and breeding population is killed every single year? I find that very difficult to believe. But if you have proof, bring it on.

If not, then the situations don't compare....not in the least....

Remember, they weren't just killing off the injured horses. They were also killing off retired (and presumably HEALTHY) horses and mares that could no longer conceive. I don't doubt that there are some folks in the USA that ship their unwanted horses to the killers (and yes, I know how a slaughterhouse works....I suspect LOTS of people on this board know EXACTLY how the killing process works, from BEGINNING to end)....but to the tune of 30% every year?

Not bloody likely....

You need to wakeup and smell the roses PA, You are the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen, In essence you are sayings its ok what we do but its not ok for the chinesse.The USA does the same thing...You just dont want to face the facts..

JustRalph

11-27-2005, 05:09 PM

Second, as much as our culture does not like it, Asian cultures eat horse meat.

Hell, the French eat horse meat. Just another reason not to like them.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 05:13 PM

You need to wakeup and smell the roses PA, You are the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen, In essence you are sayings its ok what we do but its not ok for the chinesse.The USA does the same thing...You just dont want to face the facts..

Not in the least! And how insulting that you will sit there and proclaim that I am "ok" about horses being shipped to slaughter in this country! How dare you! Where the hell did I say that I was OK with unwanted USA horses being shipped to slaughterhouses?

The USA does not do the same thing. I am talking about orders of MAGNITUDE. If you can't grasp this concept, it is not my fault. But don't go around insulting me with some of the most heartless charges I ever seen thrown my way on this board.

I suggest you read the story about the Chinese track again. Then maybe you will come back and apologize for being so insensitive.

RXB

11-27-2005, 05:34 PM

Hands up: how many who don't like the slaughter of horses, eat the flesh of other animals?

Killpens are no more pleasant for a pig, or a cow, or a chicken. Oh, and you should see what they do to chickens' beaks at the commercial egg farms.

Freaking out over the slaughter of racehorses strikes me as a bit strange (vegans excepted) considering the almost unimaginable pile of carcasses of other animals that we stack up every day.

I'll be cooking up a steak tonight with the usual twinge of guilt.

saratoga guy

11-27-2005, 05:39 PM

Freaking out over the slaughter of racehorses strikes me as a bit strange (vegans excepted) considering the almost unimaginable pile of carcasses of other animals that we stack up every day.

I've got to admit -- I've never understood this outrage either.

I've had people explain that somehow horses were an integral part of the establishment of this country (?!) and therefore deserve special status.

I eat hamburger -- why should I be outraged that horses are killed but not cows?

...But, to each is own I guess...

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 05:44 PM

One giant flaw in your reasoning RXB.

In the UNITED STATES, horses are NOT RAISED as LIVESTOCK with the express purpose of being slaughtered for HUMAN CONSUMPTION, as are COWS, PIGS, and CHICKENS.

And another thing nobody has brought up, but is equally if not more repugnant as the MASS KILLINGS in China (perhaps I can SCORE SOME POINTS with MCSCHELL for what I am about to post):

Fillies and mares in this country are used for the production of the hormone PREMARIN, which is a conjugated estrogen that helps women cope with the side effects of menopause. In order to get the hormone, mares are intentionally impregnated (the hormone is only produced by pregnant mares), kept in their stalls, and tapped for their urine.

The resultant foals are basically useless, and sent to slaughter, as are the mares who no longer can be kept perpetually pregnant.

More info here:

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/equine_protection/the_facts_about_premarin.html

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 05:46 PM

I've got to admit -- I've never understood this outrage either.

I've had people explain that somehow horses were an integral part of the establishment of this country (?!) and therefore deserve special status.

I eat hamburger -- why should I be outraged that horses are killed but not cows?

...But, to each is own I guess...

Hey, why not fry up some dog or cat while we're at it....they do it in other parts of the world, right?

Why should you be outraged that horses are killed but not cows? For the same reason we in this country DON'T fry up some dogs or cats and serve them on a bun....that's why....

RXB

11-27-2005, 05:49 PM

One giant flaw in your reasoning, PA. Do you think that the pig cares that it's been raised as livestock?

"Well, pig, I know you're not happy about what's going to happen, but hey, you are officially sanctioned as a livestock animal by the American government, so go quietly and let's not have any quibbling or whining."

"Oh, okay Mr. Slaughterman. Sorry about my fit of existential pique. Now, it's to the left, did you say?"

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 05:54 PM

Well, then RXB, I'll pose the question I posed to Saratoga Guy:

Using your reasoning, why not fry up some dogs and cats at your next picnic? You won't. If you did, there would be shock and horror displayed by most....

But why not do it? Using your logic, it wouldn't be much different than frying up a pig or a chicken, right? Why should dogs and cats enjoy a hands-off policy?

When you reach your answer, you'll then have the answer as to why horses should enjoy the same status, and why pigs, chickens and cows do not.

RXB

11-27-2005, 06:00 PM

Does the pig enjoy the slaughterhouse experience? Does it feel any less pain or fear than a cat or dog would?

Does the lobster enjoy being boiled alive? Man, that must feel good.

In India, cows are sacred. Does that mean that cows shouldn't be killed anywhere else?

11-27-2005, 06:19 PM

I don't know what to think about all this really. I mean, I love horses and racing, but on the other hand, they are still animals.

Here is a question, what do you do with all the horses that no longer serve a human purpose? I don't know the answer, I'm being serious. I imagine its not cheap to just take them in as pets.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 06:20 PM

In India, cows are sacred. Does that mean that cows shouldn't be killed anywhere else?

There you go. You've answered the question. Different cultures have different viewpoints as to the hierarchy of animals. In the US, the rule is that humans don't eat horse flesh. That's just one of the reasons why they are different from cows, pigs and chickens. They aren't raised for the express purpose of human consumption in this country.

I take it you might be a vegetarian? If so, more power to you. I wish I were.

RXB

11-27-2005, 06:35 PM

No, PA, I'm not a vegetarian. (My 'steak' comment was related to that point.) I eat less dead animal than most people, but I do consume some.

I agree that different cultures have different values; my point is that the cultural values seem rather patchy and frequently indifferent when it comes to animal welfare. I am a horseplayer and a non-vegetarian, so while I don't like the idea of slaughtering horses (or any other animals), there I am at the racetrack, and there's the steak in the fridge today.

As cj noted, it's not cheap to keep a horse and it's not easy to find homes for many thoroughbreds-- partly due to the number of horses and partly due to many thoroughbreds lacking the temperament to be enjoyable pets.

CryingForTheHorses

11-27-2005, 06:44 PM

Not in the least! And how insulting that you will sit there and proclaim that I am "ok" about horses being shipped to slaughter in this country! How dare you! Where the hell did I say that I was OK with unwanted USA horses being shipped to slaughterhouses?

The USA does not do the same thing. I am talking about orders of MAGNITUDE. If you can't grasp this concept, it is not my fault. But don't go around insulting me with some of the most heartless charges I ever seen thrown my way on this board.

I suggest you read the story about the Chinese track again. Then maybe you will come back and apologize for being so insensitive.

quote..The situations dont compare..Not in the least!

This is where you are very wrong, Do you know how many small towns have auctions of horseflesh every 2 weeks?.I can name several to you but I wont!! .Have you seen horses herded onto cattlecars getting ready for the killers..I bet if you really did see some of the things that happen with horses you would be sickened.Its very easy to watch the races and not ever think about what happens in the background ..Didnt mean or try to insult you..sorry

kenwoodallpromos

11-27-2005, 06:48 PM

"Who eats horsemeat, and where does it come from? The majority of horsemeat is consumed in France, Belgium, Japan, Italy and Switzerland, as well as smaller pockets of people of French descent in Canada and other European Union member countries.

Whose horses do they eat? Well, they don't eat their own country's horses; they eat horsemeat shipped from China and North America. They eat American horses slaughtered right here in the good old U.S. of A."
The numbers or % of racing T'Breds slaughtered varies gfreatly according to who you believe.
Those who buy horses at auction do not care where they come from and plants do not know and do not try to find out.
7,000-9,000 is claimed form the owner of Tasig auction.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 06:53 PM

quote..The situations dont compare..Not in the least!

They don't compare. I'm not talking about the ACT of slaughtering horses, which we know DOES GO ON in the USA (although there are bills out there ready to stop it). I'm TALKING ABOUT THE MAGNITUDE OF SLAUGHTER talked about in the case of the Chinese racetrack. They killed THIRTY PERCENT of the horses that were at the track for the last racing season!!!!

That would be akin to going to Belmont and sending 30% of the horses off to slaughter once the meet is over. I can tell you for a fact that 30% of the horses are NOT sent to slaughterhouses at the end of the Belmont meet.

Taken NATIONWIDE, as a whole, I would seriously doubt if 30% of the horses running at racetracks and in breeding farms across the USA are sent to slaughter at the END OF EACH YEAR. Yet, this is what happened in the case of the Chinese racetrack.

Read the story again. The guy is quoted in the story as saying "they were not out of line with the typical end-of-season practice of culling." Meaning, this is BUSINESS AS USUAL.

The situations DO NOT COMPARE. Not in the least. I stand by my statement.

11-27-2005, 06:59 PM

...That would be akin to going to Belmont and sending 30% of the horses off to slaughter once the meet is over. I can tell you for a fact that 30% of the horses are NOT sent to slaughterhouses at the end of the Belmont meet.

You are right, they go to Finger Lakes, Penn, etc. first.

JustRalph

11-27-2005, 07:37 PM

You are right, they go to Finger Lakes, Penn, etc. first.

Sure enough! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

sniezer

11-27-2005, 08:56 PM

The situations DO NOT COMPARE. Not in the least. I stand by my statement.

Your right they don't compare. Kudos to any horsemen that given a choice to send a horse to slaughter and make $500 or PAY $150-$750 to have one put down humanely, chooses the non-traumatic route of a vet's injection.

Will you really see 70% of the horses from Belmont race there next year. Hardly. Just because they squeeze a few more races out of them at a lower track and then ship them down the road, makes it better? That those horses are sore and sour and still running a few more races is good? Where do you think the cheap tracks get their horses from?

I've been to tracks where 10-20 horses a week are loaded onto the killer truck. This number increases at the end of a meet. With the northern tracks closing,New Holland is going to be very busy for the next few months.

As far as broodmares and young stock. What do you think happens to the weanlings and yearlings that don't even get a $500 bid at an auction end up? How many chances do you think they give a mare to produce a runner?

And as for closing the US slaughter plants.The horses will have to spend an extra day or two crammed on the truck as they head for Canada and Mexico.

So I'll stand by my statement that we have no right to point fingers at China. 20%-30% here? I don't have figures. I only know what I've seen.Look at a trainers stable from one year to the next. Do they have 70% of the same horses. I don't think so.

PaceAdvantage

11-27-2005, 09:47 PM

Why do you assume every horse that is unwanted at the racetrack is sent to slaughter? That simply is not the case, especially these days with so many more rescue organizations in existence.

Observer

11-27-2005, 10:51 PM

I find it surprising how little shock there is over the mass extermination of the horses in Beijing. Does slaughter happen here in the U.S.? Yes, it does. However, there are movements that have gained momentum with each passing year since the TRF began in 1981 when Creme de la Fete became the first resident at their New York facility.

What's that? The TRF? That's the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation. And in the years since its inception, it has grown tremendously while many other similar organizations have popped up all over the country as well. Kudos to all those who have worked so hard for such a great cause.

What do you do with all those "unwanted" horses? You work with them and hopefully find them new homes with loving owners. It's amazing how a racehorse can be transformed. They are capable of so much more than just racing .. including being a horse on which children take riding lessons.

The arguments here seem to be going in different directions. But ultimately, I think it's lousy when owners are too thoughtless to consider options other than euthanasia. If it's so humane .. humans should be permitted to do it to each other under the "right" circumstances.

And yes, different cultures have different beliefs. But this was simply sickening, and to think its done every year routinely .. I can't even find the right word. I find it baffling how people were so outraged over the slaughters of Exceller & Ferdinand, but very little is being made of these mass killings. Why? Because the horses involved weren't American stars?

Level of achievement should not be a deciding factor in whether a horse is entitled to a good home. Just like every person can not be expected to be great at the same thing, not every horse is going to be great at running. That doesn't mean you kill them because they're no good, or not capable anymore.

Indulto

11-28-2005, 01:48 AM

Every racing fan at least implicitly accepts the idea that it is OK to race horses until they can no longer perform despite the increasing discomfort and injury it causes for most of them which leads to their devaluation and eventually becoming a financial liability. However those that perform well are usually treated very well; some of them more so than some humans. A few even qualify for notices of their passing in the trade press. Is concern for these animals in this particular thread motivated by sentiment, morality, economics, or simply aversion to waste?

Humans control and select the breeding of horses for entertainment purposes as well as food, just as they do bulls (for rodeos), chickens (for cock fighting), and so on. Monkeys are bred for research, but maybe some human somewhere is masticating a primate limb in a Donner-like dinner party.

On what basis can we claim that our society/culture is superior because horsemeat is not expressly raised for human consumption here? Pigs are more intelligent than horses and we eat them in tremendous quantity with some commercial pig farms destroying their surrounding environments and lowering the quality of local human life. Is the commercial slaughter of these smarter and thus more traumatized animals any less distasteful?

How many horses actually become pets? Have you ever knowingly purchased pet food or glue made from slaughtered horses? Is it distressing to know that pet food of all types is consumed by some humans who can’t afford anything else (though some apparently develop a taste for it)?

Observer observed, ‘"You don't throw a whole life away because it's banged up a little," (from Seabiscuit).’ Apparently it’s not a mistake to throw a lot of them away rather than admit a mistake.

PaceAdvantage

11-28-2005, 02:20 AM

On what basis can we claim that our society/culture is superior because horsemeat is not expressly raised for human consumption here?

Where did anyone write that our society/culture is superior because horses are not raised for the purpose of human consumption?

Pigs are more intelligent than horses and we eat them in tremendous quantity with some commercial pig farms destroying their surrounding environments and lowering the quality of local human life. Is the commercial slaughter of these smarter and thus more traumatized animals any less distasteful?

Again, I don't believe anyone raised the spectre of animal intelligence (or lack thereof) as a deciding factor in their ultimate demise. I fail to understand the point.

How many horses actually become pets? Have you ever knowingly purchased pet food or glue made from slaughtered horses? Is it distressing to know that pet food of all types is consumed by some humans who can’t afford anything else (though some apparently develop a taste for it)?

Man, you are really pushing the envelope of "far out" examples....how about sticking to the main point of this thread?....that being the EXTREME measures taken by the Chinese racetrack.

Why is everyone so afraid to admit that what they are doing over there is WRONG.....don't try and RATIONALIZE it by comparing it to what happens in America. Americans don't slaughter 30% of their active or just retired racehorses every year.

Why does everything have to be beaten to death? Argued ad infinitum. Rationalizations galore. Jeez.....

CryingForTheHorses

11-28-2005, 05:54 PM

Your right they don't compare. Kudos to any horsemen that given a choice to send a horse to slaughter and make $500 or PAY $150-$750 to have one put down humanely, chooses the non-traumatic route of a vet's injection.

Will you really see 70% of the horses from Belmont race there next year. Hardly. Just because they squeeze a few more races out of them at a lower track and then ship them down the road, makes it better? That those horses are sore and sour and still running a few more races is good? Where do you think the cheap tracks get their horses from?

I've been to tracks where 10-20 horses a week are loaded onto the killer truck. This number increases at the end of a meet. With the northern tracks closing,New Holland is going to be very busy for the next few months.

As far as broodmares and young stock. What do you think happens to the weanlings and yearlings that don't even get a $500 bid at an auction end up? How many chances do you think they give a mare to produce a runner?

And as for closing the US slaughter plants.The horses will have to spend an extra day or two crammed on the truck as they head for Canada and Mexico.

So I'll stand by my statement that we have no right to point fingers at China. 20%-30% here? I don't have figures. I only know what I've seen.Look at a trainers stable from one year to the next. Do they have 70% of the same horses. I don't think so.

Thankyou for this post!!

CryingForTheHorses

11-28-2005, 06:01 PM

46zilzal

11-28-2005, 06:02 PM

remember your namesakes' big match race at Hollywood?

Indulto

11-28-2005, 06:18 PM

PA,

I am surprised you didn’t take exception when another poster took the opportunity to denigrate the French for eating horsemeat. While I’m not crazy about their cuisine, I have long admired the French for their assistance when requested in our own revolution, for their overthrow of a tyrannical ruling class without assistance, for their WWII resistance to the Nazis defining the term “Freedom Fighters” in its most positive sense, and for getting out of Viet Nam when confronted with reality.

Earlier comparisons between pig slaughter and horse slaughter were raised by others. I indeed contributed the spectre of intelligence because the slaughter of intelligent beings always disturbs me. The more intelligent the being, the more disturbed I become.

Finally, this has been an interesting thread which attained elements of absurdity long before my own attempt to contribute more of the same.

I too appreciate the comments of snieser and those of RXB as well.

Indulto

11-28-2005, 06:25 PM

46,

I only got to witness my namesake's exploits on the East coast. I would love to hear any memories of his exploits you and others may care to share, but I don't want to support hijacking of this thread as I may be in enough trouble already.

chickenhead

11-28-2005, 06:54 PM

I'd never eat a cat or a dog, but I think I probably would eat horsemeat if I was convinced it was tasty. From what I've read it's supposed to be pretty good.

There are plenty of animals I wouldn't eat just because I think they'd be nasty, but there are only three I wouldn't eat on ethical (cultural) grounds, thats cats dogs and monkeys. And anything where there are only a few left.

Other than that I say Bon Apetit!

I ate a seagull once in the Cook Islands, nastiest greasiest meat I ever had, but the locals seemed to like it.

kenwoodallpromos

11-28-2005, 06:59 PM

"The more intelligent, the more disturbed I become":
From the web Nov 26, 2005-
"Report co-author and edition editor Culum Brown, of the Institute of Cell, Animal and Population Biology at the University of Edinburgh, said: “Learning plays a pivotal role in the behavioural development of all vertebrates, and fish are no exception. Although it may seem extraordinary to those comfortably used to pre-judging animal intelligence on the basis of brain volume, in some cognitive domains, fish can even be favourably compared to non-human primates."
_________________
I'll never eat fishsticks again!

Indulto

11-28-2005, 08:56 PM

KW,

Given the whales and sharks in the pools, we’re all part of the food chain, so whether it’s minced fish, mincemeats, or candy mints -- devour at will.

JustRalph

11-28-2005, 09:23 PM

I ate a seagull once in the Cook Islands, nastiest greasiest meat I ever had, but the locals seemed to like it.

A Seagull? Some of the nastiest creatures on earth...........Greasy my ass, that was pure sludge!

I did taste rattlesnake and armadillo while in Texas at Combat School. The Army instructors would kill them and basically force the Air Force Troops to taste it. It was some kind of right of passage bullshit. You just knew that if you didn't taste it, they would find some reason to give you pushups for the next week...

Tom

11-28-2005, 10:44 PM

11-29-2005, 03:25 AM

I'd never eat a cat or a dog...

To quote a character from one of my favorite shows, Deadwood:

Don't guarantee what you will never do

sniezer

11-29-2005, 08:46 AM

Why do you assume every horse that is unwanted at the racetrack is sent to slaughter? That simply is not the case, especially these days with so many more rescue organizations in existence.

Assume?!! I do not assume anything about what I have stated. You are on the outside looking in. I am from the inside speaking out.

I have spent 30 yrs working with racehorses. From Gulfstream to the Mass fairs. Trust me I know how many horses get a good home. The people willing to give an ex-racer a chance,want the slow,non-aggressive,only started a few times maidens. That leaves the majority of your,oh they don't do that at Belmont horses, out in the cold. Do you think that when that $40,000 2-3yr old doesn't come back off a lay off able to compete, those Belmont owners and trainers take $1,000.00 and sell them as a riding horse. Or do you think they sell them to Del or Philly for $10,000 knowing that horse will keep getting sorer with each start.

OK, I guess the fact that he can run medicated from the pain of his initial injury for maybe 2 more years makes that all right. Oh, and if he can keep winning he gets to live 1 more year and grow grapefruit ankles and pineapple knees. The ridinghorse people are just begging for those kind of horses. And if he was aggressive enough to want to run on those legs,do you think there are many people that can handle that type of horse.

I'll get off my soapbox now and stop trying to remove your pink-tinted spectacles. You go right ahead and point your finger at China. I don't wish to be a hypocrite.

Oh,and I do love racing and handicapping,but I know we have a long ways to go to make it better for the horses.

McSchell, thanks, I needed to hear that. Coming from a fellow horseman I appreciate the backing. I sort of feel guilty exposing the darker side of racing. I know you and I aren't the only ones backside willing to keep feeding those old class horses. I wish more owners would,but, I'm also aware of how hard it is to find a home for a lawn ornament.

chickenhead

11-29-2005, 10:46 AM

A Seagull? Some of the nastiest creatures on earth...........Greasy my ass, that was pure sludge!

I was stuck on this little coral atoll called Manahiki for weeks and weeks installing of all things cell phone towers for the pearl farmers.
I have to be honest, after a month of eating nothing but fish every meal...that seagull looked mighty good!

Observer

11-29-2005, 11:06 AM

They wont take stallions that are very gentle (I know this as I have tried)..They dont want lame horses or horses that are fiesty.

Can't understand why you wouldn't get the horse gelded than. Yes, it's another financial investment, and the horse would need a little more time to recover from the procedure, but it seems to me it would be worth the $600 or so, plus 1 more week in the barn.

I'm also aware of how hard it is to find a home for a lawn ornament.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough .. because there are places willing to take horses with major problems. The TRF is NOT the only answer.

I sort of feel guilty exposing the darker side of racing.

Maybe if more of the "darker side of racing" was exposed, more would be done. It seems the biggest boosts in the fight against the "darker side of racing" came when word spread of the slaughter of Exceller, and then Ferdinand.

__________________________________________________ _______________

What still amazes me though, is how far off the original topic this thread has gone. Instead of comments on what happened in Beijing, it has turned into a discussion of what goes on here in America, with not just horses, but various animals.

Weird.

Anyway .. I'm gonna shed a positive light on this thread, since it's already been taken in a wide range of other directions:

Here's a horse making a wonderful difference as a lesson horse:
C'mon Bayou (http://pal-o-mine.org/cbu_detail.php)

Here are success stories of rescues, including Premarin cases:
NYHR Successes (http://www.nyhr.org/success.html)

Here are some horses, available & adopted:
NYHR Horses (http://www.nyhr.org/horses.html)

Here are special needs horses:
Sponsor Horses (http://www.nyhr.org/sponsor.html)

PaceAdvantage

11-29-2005, 01:19 PM

You are on the outside looking in. I am from the inside speaking out.

And you ASSUME this how? I have plenty of sources inside, and I do work in the racing industry. But thanks for assuming.

You don't need to tell me we have a long way to go in the US. I thought that was understood.

It still doesn't excuse or mitigate the original post in this thread. It is pure distraction to compare what happens here in the US to what happened at that one track in China.

Indulto

11-29-2005, 03:44 PM

PA,

You wrote, “It still doesn't excuse or mitigate the original post in this thread. It is pure distraction to compare what happens here in the US to what happened at that one track in China.”

I haven’t seen where anybody attempted to excuse or mitigate the tragic loss of equine life brought to light in the original post. What some others have achieved here was to put that tragedy in perspective. You may not find such points of view compelling, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t valid or relevant. As you are the one who feels distracted -- and appears to be on the defensive -- why not simply state the objectives/intentions of that original post and let it go at that?

PaceAdvantage

11-29-2005, 04:38 PM

I haven’t seen where anybody attempted to excuse or mitigate the tragic loss of equine life brought to light in the original post. What some others have achieved here was to put that tragedy in perspective.

Achieved? How so? If you are saying that the posts in this thread have been successful in equating (or placing into perspective as you say) what happened at that one racetrack in China to what happens in America, then they have in some way mitigated the tragedy, have they not?

I maintain there is no equating what happened in China with what happens in America. At least in America, some people apparently still give a damn about what happens to some of these horses.

The objectives of the original post were to bring to light the callous nature in which racehorses are handled around the globe....treated as nothing more than commodities that can be discarded into the "death pit" when they are no longer needed. If you are going to sit there and tell me that the degree of senseless horse killing that occurred is the same as what happens here in America (and especially to the same magnitude), then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

In the meantime, I'm going to go and donate some more $$ to some horse rescue organizations. If there are similar organizations in China, I'd like to send some $$ their way as well....

And on a personal note, why is your font so much smaller than everyone else's?

Indulto

11-29-2005, 06:14 PM

PA wrote:

“If you are going to sit there and tell me that the degree of senseless horse killing that occurred is the same as what happens here in America (and especially to the same magnitude), then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.”

We could agree if it weren’t for statements like the following:

“At least in America, some people apparently still give a damn about what happens to some of these horses.”

Why do you assume there aren’t some people in China that do care and are just as appalled by that action. You paint with an awfully broad brush for someone who wants to be taken seriously. Fortunately for me, I don’t operate under that restriction

Re: the smaller font: When I compose off-line using MS-Word and then paste it into the on-line editor, the size is reduced. I’ll try to enlarge it if it bothers you. BTW no size change occurs when I cut a portion of a post I want to quote and then paste it into Word.

Question for you: How does one prevent the online editor from inserting so many blank lines between paragraphs.

sniezer

11-29-2005, 08:43 PM

Maybe you're not looking hard enough .. because there are places willing to take horses with major problems. The TRF is NOT the only answer.

I was rehabbing racehorses long before there was a CANTER or TRF. I have hands on retrained a few hundred horses and fed those horses out of my own pocket. I then gave them away for free. Please don't insult me.

Observer

11-29-2005, 11:50 PM

My post was not meant to insult you, but rather to point out that there are places that do take horses with major issues. I'm not trying to suggest this is an easy task, but there are places who can provide homes for horses that will never be able to be more than just a pasture horse.

PaceAdvantage

11-30-2005, 02:30 AM

We could agree if it weren’t for statements like the following:

“At least in America, some people apparently still give a damn about what happens to some of these horses.”

Why do you assume there aren’t some people in China that do care and are just as appalled by that action. You paint with an awfully broad brush for someone who wants to be taken seriously. Fortunately for me, I don’t operate under that restriction

I can only paint with the tools I am given. Nowhere in the article do I sense remorse from Mr. Kevin Connolly, racing director, (who we can safely assume is not Chinese, and who is probably very familiar with the concept of a rescue organization). We don't hear Mr. Connolly talk at all about any steps that may have been taken to try and find something else for these horses to do, even temporarily while other options were being investigated.

And please, I urge you again to read the article, and make the following distinction:

The killings included 400 Thoroughbreds in training

"All the horses have not been culled. We normally cull at the end of each season, such as retired and injured horses, mares that have not conceived for a number of seasons, the same as most places," Connolly told Racing Post. "Should racing start again, we will [have] more than enough horses to race."

I take that last quote to mean that they NORMALLY kill injured and retired horses that have no use for anyone at the end of the regular racing season. But THIS TIME, they had to kill viable thoroughbreds....hundreds of healthy, ACTIVE horses. They were not killed because they were broken down or sick. They were killed because racing, for whatever reason, had been DISCONTINUED in Beijing. THIS is a major source of my anger (not that it would have made me any less angry if they had indeed been broken down or sick).

"Should racing start again, we will [have] more than enough horses to race."

Oh thank God for that. You mean they actually let a few live? You see what I mean here? No remorse at all....

"It's nothing personal....it's simply business"

And yes, I get it, as I have ALWAYS gotten it, that horses in this country aren't treated any better (and in fact, are treated WORSE) when they are put on the killer trucks and shipped to the death box to get a bolt in their head, hung upside down, and have their throats slit (with some maintaining consciousness as they bleed out if the bolt missed its mark). I get that. I have ALWAYS gotten that.

It still doesn't make me any less outraged. If this story had been based on a racetrack in the US, and not China, I'd be equally, if not more upset. It has nothing to do with where it happened. It just has to do with the horses. That's it.

Really, I'm on your side here.