Brisbet Players Pool At CD

[oexplayer68]

Well, these guys were at it again today, and of course I bit. They had two tickets alive going into race 9, one had 10 horses and the other had four. Just like the Breeders Cup, they get beat by one of the two horses they don't have.



While I love the concept of this, does anyone else besides me wonder what these jokers are thinking when they select horses and set up the tickets? The large ticket they played on Breeders Cup day was perhaps the most amateurish structure I have ever seen. Couple that with the fact these guys are leaving off fairly obvious horses, and it tells me they either don't really know what they are doing, or are spending very little time handicapping. Maybe the BRIS hall of fame is not all it's cut out to be.



Shame on me for even investing in this non-sense. Pick Six's have never been of too much interest to me, even though I have hit more than a few. I know it's always easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback", but it's pretty sad that 100K worth of tickets keeps coming up empty.



What do you all think of their concept? Do you think that there is a better way to derive the selections? It will certainly be difficult for me to invest in this stuff again, as long as the same people are making the ticket. Maybe that's just the best thing to do either way?

[BillW]

I don't understand the reason to play. Even if they would have won - you would have won $0.50 for each dollar you sunk into it (per winning ticket - less withholdings). A show bet in anyone of those races would have probably brought that in.

Bill

[exiles]

These guys really stink,i thought what they did on breeders cup day was they worst, but they outdid them selfs yesterday. the player's pool is only good for America Tab as they get a big % of the takeout on the 57000 . Notice how the tone of their pitch for the player's pool changed after the breeders cup debacle.

[midnight]

If they had ten horses in the ninth race and didn't have Sundrop, then they're clueless. I would throw out 2, 7, 10, and 12 in that race before I'd throw out Sundrop, and that's just at a glance.

[exiles]

these are the tickets .

123591112
4589
13578101112
124567810
134678101112
2
cost 36.288

1259
145689
10
1245678910
146811
24789
10.800

1259
45689
131012
146910
14811
247
9.600 plus 2 smaall tickets i for $720 1 for $64

[highabove]

I learned my lesson on BC day. It pays to go in with those that can handicap and not those trumpeted by Bris. Remember Bris brought us the likes of the great Dick Powell who made an a## of himself by stating full fields at Churchill were to hard to handicap.

[oexplayer68]

You guys all bring up good points. My reasoning for playing today and in the past has been to have a shot at making 50-100X my money. Obviously that hasn't happened, and the $$$ I put in would have been better off on a two-horse entry to show.

As far as leaving out Sundrop, I totally agree this was stupid. I had that horse in the top 5 for sure. I still can't get over them leaving out Intercontinental from the BC ticket.

IMO, the concept is really pretty solid, but the strategy is severely flawed. The last time I spoke to John Broadbent, I suggested they maybe limit either the $$$ amount, or number of players. Of course this when they were having reasonable success cashing tickets.

Anyway, this is the last time I contribute to the pool. You guys should probably jump in next time as my absence will guarantee a big score :D .

[xfile]

If they had ten horses in the ninth race and didn't have Sundrop, then they're clueless. I would throw out 2, 7, 10, and 12 in that race before I'd throw out Sundrop, and that's just at a glance.

They didn't have Sundrop?????????:confused:

[cj]

57,000 in tickets? Wow, seems like you would have had to try extra hard not to hit that thing.

[xfile]

57,000 in tickets? Wow, seems like you would have had to try extra hard not to hit that thing.

57,000 and no Sundrop? lol....I understand she was vanned off at BC but she had a very impressive workout since then. That told me the vanning off was just a precaution. She was dropping waaaaaaaay down in class from G1 BC to G3 regulars....Incredible they played 10 horses in that race and not her. I had it narrowed down to 4 horses, 3 of which made up the trifecta. But then again ask Simon Bray and he'll say I'm not an astute handicapper...lol......see blinkers off post......I see a trend across the board where the so-called experts keep coming up empty. Oh well....more money for me in the overlay pools. :cool:

[garyoz]

Do you think that Bris will give up these player pools now? It is pretty embarassing.

[exiles]

Why give it up it's very embarassing but very profitable for BRIS

[Speed Figure]

Why stop something that SUCKERS keep coming back to play! :lol: :faint: :D

[midnight]

They won't give it up. They're getting a percentage of those bets. That's the whole idea behind offering it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm still trying to figure out how it is legal....didn't Gordon Jones get in trouble for doing exactly this (only on a much lesser scale) in California?

[BillW]

I'm still trying to figure out how it is legal....didn't Gordon Jones get in trouble for doing exactly this (only on a much lesser scale) in California?

I think that was a Calif issue - Bris doesn't play Calif with this thing.

[Indulto]

PA,

In Gordon Jones' on-track seminars at Hollywood Park, he would specify the Pick Six combinations he intended to play in advance, calculate the total investment, and then invite any seminar attendees that wished to participate to sign in and purchase whatever portion of that investment each desired. I don't know if there was a limit placed on individual attendee contributions, but I understood that he himself contributed the un-purchased balance of the wager thereby assuming at least some, if not most, of the risk.

I never even suspected that there was anything wrong with this practice until one of his off-track seminars during a Santa Anita meeting was raided by the Arcadia police, reportedly to terminate an "illegal bookmaking" operation. I never learned of any subsequent conviction. I also never personally knew any players who shared the profits from such collaborations or heard how IRS signings were handled as I recall only Phone #s and not SSN #s were recorded at signup. It was my impression that such seminars were encouraged by Hollywood Park because they helped advertise the then new wager and created interest and enthusiasm for it as well.

It would make more sense to me to see tracks lower the price of P6 combinations to encourage low-budget players to make their own selections, but Jones' approach seems preferable to the blind-faith, blinkers-on betting Brisbets brings on-line to bulk-up its bottom-line at the apparent expense of uninformed fans unaware of (or uncaring as to) who really benefits from the "Players Pool" concept.

[PaceAdvantage]

I know in NY it is technically illegal (or at least it used to be if it isn't anymore, and I doubt they changed this law) to place a bet with SOMEONE ELSE'S money....

I wonder if this law applies when someone in NY gives their money to the BRIS folks to BET on the Pick 6....

I also imagine a number of other states have similar arcane laws on the books, which is why I question the legality of the BRISbet Players Pool.....

[WJ47]

I'm in NY and I've bet on the Brisbet Players Pool before. I stopped betting it when they lost because they failed to include Rock Hard Ten on the ticket when he was a pretty obvious contender. Their picks amaze me! They are totally shameless! :D It seemed promising at first, the first one I bet on, I received around $45 back per $10, plus a tax form for the IRS! The Breeders Cup ticket was unbelievable! :bang:

[JustRalph]

Matt Carrothers on TVG got 5 of 6 on a $144 ticket. He does pretty well on a regular basis..........why don't these idiots let Carrothers pick the ticket?

[rrbauer]

Indulto wrote:
"I never even suspected that there was anything wrong with this practice until one of his off-track seminars during a Santa Anita meeting was raided by the Arcadia police, reportedly to terminate an "illegal bookmaking" operation. I never learned of any subsequent conviction. I also never personally knew any players who shared the profits from such collaborations or heard how IRS signings were handled as I recall only Phone #s and not SSN #s were recorded at signup. It was my impression that such seminars were encouraged by Hollywood Park because they helped advertise the then new wager and created interest and enthusiasm for it as well."

Gordon's Arcadia bust was on a technicality. He was taking the money at an off-track site (a restaurant). Charges were dropped when he agreed to stop taking the bets. (He was putting in the bets.) There also were some grumblings because Gordon kept the withholding credits and did the "signers" in his name when they had a winner.

Later, when he ran his P6-club from on track at Hollywood there was no "bookmaking" issue. At that time Marjorie Everett owned Hollywood and the quid pro quo with Gordon (for getting the free publicity and using the meeting facility for no charge) was that he told Hollywood how to structure their race card each day so that the P6 races were the toughest on the card. This was done in hopes of getting carryovers.

I think that today he still has the group P6 plays, on track, when they race at Fairplex. I'm out of touch with his Vegas' situation today, but a few years ago he was doing the group P6 thing from Sams Town.

The BRIS "everybody jump in the pool" thing is dumb. We've thrown plenty of darts at that on this board (from a little-guy player perspective) and their experience just bears out the dominant opinion that the returns just aren't there....even when they win something.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"no Sundrop? lol....I understand she was vanned off at BC".
We had a thread on comment lines you can take a look at- I said my favorites to bet next race or 2 out was "vanned off" and "lost rider. :jump:

[toetoe]

Indulto,

How are you, at this advanced age? And your stablemate, Kfar Tov? And I'm guessing you raced for Mmes. Rous and Millard?

[Indulto]

RB,

Thanks for resolving a number of questions I’ve had for a long time. I wish the “Prof” well. His “projection play” has remained a staple in my handicapping tool bag and his “Herald Examiner” selections provided me with an excellent reality check for as long as they existed. He appeared charming and very entertaining at the lone seminar I attended and gave straight answers to difficult questions.

Sometime during that era, a “Best Seven” wager was offered at 50 cents per combination. It never generated much of a pool and was soon discontinued, but as it included feature races from several tracks, it did offer a series of interesting races that I felt were pickable. While not as competitive as the BC Ultra P6, it had greater payoff potential than a “Choose Six” at a single track or the “Magna Pick Five.” And those races certainly weren’t chosen to spawn carryovers.

Given the apparent demise of the Thoroughbred Championship Tour, perhaps the tracks should consider cooperatively experimenting with separately-priced simulcasting (on weekends only) of the 6 highest purse races of the day nationwide. At 25 cents per combination, it could be dubbed the “National Two-Bit Pick Six” and the participating sources of those 6 races would receive full, unrebateable shares of handle through a legal on-line interstate account wagering cooperative.

In this particular fantasy, the takeout would always be the lowest of any participating track and the races would be carried on free network TV. Multiple network crews would initially be scheduled over a period of weeks until more frequent assignments could be earned through demonstrated competence and/or popularity as determined by account holders. Ultimately, the account holders could also pre-select the participating races (tracks) to encourage lower takeout, larger fields, minimal scheduling conflicts within divisions, and increased rooting interest. Bottom-up programming?

So there you have it – a level playing field with frequent, maximum nationwide exposure and access as well as responsive management. If that doesn’t bring in new fans, what will? NTRA refusal to support and facilitate the formation of such a cooperative is unlikely to increase the number of people asking, "Who do you like, today" in which case the NYRA should probably defer its dues even if Overseer Stone takes credit for it in the process.

It seems to me that the lower combination price and lack of rebates should discourage player pools and other whales whose handicapping and/or ROI need improvement to survive.

[Indulto]

TT,

I believe the namesake of my pseudonym raced under the colors of Mrs. E. Lasker in NY, but I don’t know about CA where the stubborn gelding left the game on his own terms by refusing to leave the gate. Rumor has it the announcer yelled, “They’re off” rather than “There they go.”

As you sound like another old-timer, maybe you can tell me whatever happened to trainer W.P. King and his jockey Jamie Arellano?

[toetoe]

So many Kings, I'm not sure. Arellano doesn't sound familiar, but Miss Arellano I remember.
How about King Of Cricket. He's in the dictionary, under hard knocker. He's harder than both of you-know-who's put together.

[falconridge]

King of Cricket was one quick quadruped. I remember the time the son of Coursing breezed three furlongs in 32 4/5 in a GGF work. 'Cricket's six-furlong track record at Del Mar has had the kind of staying power worthy of his trainer, Noble Threewit, who's been around the shedrow long enough to have seen Phar Lap. A lot of fast horses have hit the cinders at the seaside over the years, but more than three decades after K of C put up his 1:07 3/5, nothing's covered the distance faster than the King.

Miss Arellano was a crack two-year-old in the mid- to late '70s, when she ran up a string of stakes victories at the NoCal fairs. She didn't win much--that I recall, anyway--after her juvenile season.

The Indulto that toetoe and I are thinking of was an impressive and important racehorse--at least for a while. When he was in the mood to run, the chestnut son of Royal Coinage was talented enough to beat any man's horse--and frequently did so, in prestigious stakes contested over distances from five to nine furlongs. Notable races he won include the Withers Mile; the Albany, Hollywood Express, Los Angeles, Roseben, Sierra Madre, and Fall Highweight Handicaps; and the Flash and Jim Dandy Stakes. He placed in the Jersey Derby, the Hopeful and Futurity Stakes, and the Carter, Cabrillo, and Long Beach Handicaps.

Toe, was it Indulto who occupied the stall gate next to a crack quarterhorse in an ill-starred match race at Hollywood Park (that would have been in the Marje Everett years)? I vaguely recall the match being a fiasco, and the thoroughbred being soundly whipped after (perhaps) dwelling in the gate. Can't remember the name of the quarter-pather, either, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kaweah Bar--though it was one that campaigned during KB's floruit. If it was Indulto that spoiled the show, that might have been the race that marked the beginning of the end for the headstrong gelding.

(Though it was toe who first 'jacked this thread, blame the undersigned for taking it on a merry chase cross country. On second thought, blame toe. ;) In any event, regrets to those who don't cotton to such maneuvers. On second thought, tough darts if you do.):D

--falconridge

[rrpic6]

Hi Everyone:

Sorry we could not make any cash for you guys. It was some of our money also. I hope I can answer any of the questions posted here.
Leaving INTERCONTINENTAL off of The Breeder's Cup ticket had much to do with B. Frankels "mysterious" poor percentage at Belmont vs. all other tracks. Mullins in California has similar mysterious percentages on occasion. Alas, she wins, and must have passed all post race tests. If Taste of Paradise gets free a second earlier in the Sprint, we do collect about 800k for 5 of 6 times 9. That's the point of playing such a massive and amateurish ticket, to win big, or not at all.
We also have to spend all of the money collected, so the price of the ticket reflects that. Since the 3 of us decided that there would be a great possibility of only one winning ticket, as we did last year, we chose this method.
In the Cardinal Handicap, Brad Anderson (one of the Handicappers) owned #10, Lenatreuse, so we were obligated to use her due to any possible conflicts. Naturally, we would have used Sundrop with that extra pick. Hence a so called Bad-Beat. If you parlay a $2 bet from the morning line odds of each winner, its $109,760 for the pic 6, so a $34,000 payout was terrible, again, this was not expected.

[lsbets]

Ron, thanks for posting. I hope you have thick skin, because some of your comments might draw (and will from me) some tough questions.

You said that one of the handicappers owned one of the horses so you had to use it to avoid a conflict. Was this conflict - that you were obligated to make an inferior selection (I base this on you saying that naturally you would have used Sundrop if you didn't have to use the one owned by the handicapper) - was this conflict released to the people who invested their money in the ticket? Did Bris say "As you invest your money, you should know that we are obligated to put together an inferior ticket because one of the handicappers owns a horse in one of the races" If decisions on the ticket are made on that basis, that information should be readily available from Bris as people decide to throw their money in.

[rrpic6]

The decision was not made by BRIS, so they were not obligated to make any announcement, but a disclaimer is on the Players' Pool page stating there are no guarantees of winning. It is also not ethical to say that Brad Anderson owns a horse in a Grade 3 Race that has no chance of winning but we must use it. If we did not use this horse, I'm almost sure that someone would have seen Brad's name listed as an owner, and we would have been questioned of having inside information that his horse would not win, even though a morning line of 50-1 would indicate that.

[rrpic6]

PS. Sundrop was ranked 9th in this race by myself and Rich. Thus it was the next horse in.

[chickenhead]

or, maybe the logical solution is to not use him as a handicapper if there is a conflict.

[Indulto]

FR,

It has been just over 40 years since I unsuccessfully bet on Indulto to beat Buckpasser (hardly any man’s horse) and his important rabbit, Impressive, in the 1965 Hopeful, but it has been even longer since I last heard the term, “tough darts.”

The record of the equine express we are all thinking of may be viewed at:
http://www.tbcprojects.com/career.php?search=3153 (http://www.tbcprojects.com/career.php?search=3153)

If it’s not cricket to hijack threads, is it acceptable to hardknock them? If so, I nominate TT for King of StickiTTOEm. Thanks to both of you for the merry chase.

[lsbets]

If its not ethical to say that the horse has no chance of winning but you have to use it, wouldn't it also not be ethical to not say that due to conflicts of interest you are obligated to use certain horses regardless of their chances of winning and that doing so may reduce the chances of the ticket winning? We're not talking about a no guarantee of winning disclaimer. I assume that people place their money in the pool under the good faith assumption that the handicappers do their best to put together a winning ticket, and that clearly was not the case here. The solution, as chickenhead said, would be to use a different handicapper. Any time you have people making a decision on a good faith assumption (okay there's no guarantee of winning, but these guys are going to try their best) without a clear disclosure of a conflict of interest, plantiffs lawyers salivate and corporate lawyers cringe. Was Bris aware of the conflict? If they were, I'm amazed that they were willing to risk the potential liability.

[rrpic6]

I guess this would be a case of "what could go wrong did". Since the Pick 6 Carryover went over 1.6 million, a quick decision by BRIS was made to put the Players' Pool together.You'd have to ask AmericaTab if they were aware of the situation. In less than 17 hours all e-mails and other contacts were made, as well as the Handicapping done by myself and Rich. Brad was at Churchill when the announcement was made. He did express his concern and wanted Rich and myself to do the Majority of the work. We all ranked his horse 12th, yet believed the 9th ranked Sundrop had less than a 5% of winning so we did what we thought was the most honest thing to do. It has bothered all of us that this was the race we lost. In all of the other legs, the next lowest ranked horse to win was 4th.

PS. I am thick skinned. Just to add, in 7 attempts at this, we have shown a profit 3 times. I believe we have wagered approximately $420,000 and have returned about $560,000. Too bad we could not do this in Canada or offshore so the IRS would not be so happy with this project.

[lsbets]

Like I said, welcome to the board and please don't take it personally. When I read that in your initial post it sent all kinds of red flags up to me. We can be a tough, and usually fair group here.

[rrpic6]

I don't mind being on the "hot seat". This concept of ours does need fine tuning, if you want my true opinion. Yet, Mark Cuban, multibillionaire and owner of the Dallas Mavericks has mentioned doing this with Sports Betting (coincidentally one week after our initial Players' Pool last year). With constant questions of legality poping up, we know that this concept is unnerving many areas of State Legislators and Gambling Commissions. We are very close to beating a game that was always thought of being unbeatable.

[JustRalph]

Ron, you got some big ones to come strutting in here and explain yourself....:D

Wow! answers from the horses mouth........we don't get that very often.

On the topic...........missing Sundrop was unforgiveable.....

Get your flame shield out..........I have a feeling the heat is about to be turned up.........:D :D Welcome to the board! From a fellow Buckeye!

[WaHoo]

:ThmbDown: rrpic6

your not getting closer to beating the game your getting close to ruining it for the average players..
Do you also play a pick6 ticket on your own????

[rrpic6]

That Damn Godolphin Racing Inc. always gets me. I bet everyone of their Ky. Derby imports from the desert. Now that Pat Day is done, they are my new arch-enemy.

[rrpic6]

I do play the Pick 6 on my own, except when we do it with the Players Pool. The most I've won was about 200K in 1999 at Bay Meadows. I've been fascinated by the ten cent superfectas recently. In Sept. I cashed for over $5,300 on one at Turfway. Plus 5 other signers with this bet since it started this year. I also play the Pick 4 quite often. This would be my way to improve the Players' Pool, by spending the money on other high pay-out possibilities. I don't think that showing a profit in betting will ruin it for anyone. Why do you think so many people have wanted us to stop? If the same people keep winning, try to get rid of them, or just hate them. The Yankees do it every year. Spend the most cash to win it all.

[JimG]

:ThmbDown: rrpic6

your not getting closer to beating the game your getting close to ruining it for the average players..


How is he "ruining it for the average players"?

[JimG]

I do play the Pick 6 on my own, except when we do it with the Players Pool. The most I've won was about 200K in 1999 at Bay Meadows. I've been fascinated by the ten cent superfectas recently. In Sept. I cashed for over $5,300 on one at Turfway. Plus 5 other signers with this bet since it started this year. I also play the Pick 4 quite often. This would be my way to improve the Players' Pool, by spending the money on other high pay-out possibilities. I don't think that showing a profit in betting will ruin it for anyone. Why do you think so many people have wanted us to stop? If the same people keep winning, try to get rid of them, or just hate them. The Yankees do it every year. Spend the most cash to win it all.

Welcome to the board, especially considering the flak you have gotten for the ticket. I carefully looked at your ticket and could not figure why for the life of me you all put the 10 in the Sundrop race. I thought maybe you meant the 9 and made a mistake. Now that I know why, I would never get involved with one of your tickets. For that kind of money being invested, you owe it to choose the best horses you think should make up the ticket. If there is a suggested conflict of interest, then that handicapper should not participate. Including the 10 when you felt it had no chance was just plain wrong.

Jim

[Indulto]

rrpic6,

I do have a few questions for you:

1) When, relative to post-time, are the actual plays determined?

2) Can different amounts be allocated to different combinations?

3) Are you actually out-of-pocket when the play is not profitable or is compensation for your involvement a function of your success?

a) A percentage of the payoff or the pool,
b) An additional contribution to the pool on your behalf,
c) Independent of the wager,
d) Other
e) None

4) Who receives a rebate (if any) on the Player Pool wager(s)?

Thanks,
Indulto

[rrpic6]

Indulto:


You've touched on the biggest problem with question#1. My tickets are made up the night before. i try to decide the most it will take to win the Pick 6. I then try to predict the possible pay-out. My max ticket for this last one was $20,000. I thought the payout would be in the $45-125Krange. I would have had 5 of 6 five times with this bet. The infamous Cardinal Race--I had 1,4,6,8,11. The pool closes about 90 minutes before the wagers are placed, so this is logistically difficult to bet all the money that comes in. When we think there might be only one ticket (the last 2 Breeder's cups, zero tickets) we play one huge ticket, which looks idiotic, but might win 3 to 4 million. When we think the payout will be less than we collected, we play multiple tickets to try and hit it more than once, which we did in April.
I'll answer the other questions in a minute.

[rrpic6]

Indulto:

Question 3 is B. Plus I decide to put in my own money if I think about it!
Question 4 You'd have to ask AmericaTab or BrisBet or WinTicket.

[Indulto]

rrpic6,

There may be room to complain about your selections, but not about your ability to handle the “hot seat.”


Who is -- and how would I contact – the appropriate person(s) at Brisbet or WinTicket?
Should I really expect an answer?

[exiles]

(in 7 atttempts at this we showed a profit 3 times)


With an avg stake of more than 40000 BIG DEAL.

[toetoe]

RRpic6,

How about scratching the horse, paying the fine, putting in Sundrop, and everybody lives happily?

Indulto,

I saw your name in the entries many years after Buckpasser retired. Which reminds me of a laid-off-for-4-years horse, Kissin' George. Ever come up against him?

[cj]

...The Yankees do it every year. Spend the most cash to win it all.

They do? Who won last year? How about the year before last? How about the year before that? Should I keep going?

On the topic of putting the chanceless horse on the ticket, that is unforgivable. You put the interests of one of your handicappers ahead of the hundreds (maybe thousands) that invested in the P6. Almost as bad was having Sundrop rated 9th in that field, but we all make bad handicapping decisions from time to time, can't be avoided.

[Indulto]

TT,
So many Georges. George Navonod (horse), General George (race), Gorgeous George (wrestler), Curious George (monkey), George III (king), and so on. Kissin’ George, eh? I wouldn't hold it against him.

[blind squirrel]

ron,

we sat beside each other at the ORLEANS
in the 98{i think}}contest.
good to see you found this board.

it was my first big contest and i can
remember you giving me some good
pointers.

hey,we were both bitching about PAT
DAY{I live in louisville}well,finally he's
gone,who are we gonna rip now!

didn't play the players 6,but i gotta say
your'e a stand up guy to come to the board
with these players,some of the sharpest around.


mike lou ky

[rrpic6]

WinTicket is located at Beulah Park. The phone number is 614 871 9600. I wager thru them and do not receive rebates, so the only likely profit for them is the percentage taken out for placing the wager thru their hub.

[rrpic6]

Hi Mike, small world. Glad to jump in this pool with all these sharks. I'm just curious. How many in here bet Sundrop to win? Its easy to second guess our decisions when its over. We did not put one Handicapper above the customers. 99-1 horses have won big races in the past, Arcangue -BC Classic, Rockamundo - Ark. Derby. Again, a total coincidence that a huge carryover happens when Brad has a horse entered. The promotion starts at FRI. 6:00 PM EST. and all must be done by SAT. 2:00 PM the next day. Again, Brad let Rich and myself handicap, but his name and picture are on all promos. I stand by our decisions.

[linrom1]

That Damn Godolphin Racing Inc. always gets me. I bet everyone of their Ky. Derby imports from the desert. Now that Pat Day is done, they are my new arch-enemy.

You need to bet into their strength, which is turf and not dirt racing. But, of course, expert cappers like you that spend other peoples money know this already. :lol:

[MikeDee]

Ron, I just want to add my thanks to you for identifying yourself and posting on the board. It is very refreshing to get real information from one of the participants.

I am very happy to hear that you are in fact basing the tickets on a big score. I always throw in my 10 bucks, it's a lot of fun. I don't want you guys trying to put in any saver type tickets. I would much rather see you load up with bombers so that if you hit it there are only going to be a few winning tickets. Last thing I want is getting a few bucks back for my 10 spot and W2 to go with it.

P.S. I have no problem with "no chance" horses on the ticket if you want to win it all, it is only going to happen when you have the "no chance" horses and no one else does.

[WaHoo]

JIMG
How is he "ruining it for the average players"?

the Whales Bets are killing the payoffs, If i play a small ticket and actually Handicap and not just play money and i hit 5 of 6 then their tickets knocks down my payoff. The way they're are betting the pick6 with $50k or 60k and if it doesn't hit, the ones that has the losing tickets can use this on their taxes to deduct losing on the IRS tickets that they do hit. 4 or 5 big losing tickets that others paid for will make them alot of money. :lol:

[cj]

P.S. I have no problem with "no chance" horses on the ticket if you want to win it all, it is only going to happen when you have the "no chance" horses and no one else does.

But this is not what he said at first. He implied the ONLY reason the horse was on the ticket was because one of the handicappers owned the horse. Period. Seems he is changing his tune a bit now.

[highnote]

Quick question... apologies if this has been asked already...

What would have happened if they would have left the horse that is owned by one of the handicappers off the ticket and the horse won?

[toetoe]

I agree it's very refreshing to hear rr.

P.S. Struttin' George, My Pal George.

[lsbets]

I don't think it was done intentionally, but it seems clear to me that based on the conflict of interest coming from the ownership of the horse, the handicappers and AmericaTab did not live up to their fiduciary responsibilities in selecting a ticket with the best interests of the investors in mind.

[JustRalph]

Quick question... apologies if this has been asked already...

What would have happened if they would have left the horse that is owned by one of the handicappers off the ticket and the horse won?

it would imply inside info. The howling would start 30 seconds after the race

[highnote]

it would imply inside info. The howling would start 30 seconds after the race


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[cj]

The answer is to just disclose the information to those investing. Now, hats off to the poster for stepping up and saying what happened, he didn't have to say a word. I imagine they will learn something, all you can ask really. I don't think anything was done with bad intent.

[Indulto]

rrpic6,

I think of myself more as a jellyfish in this “pool “with not as effective a sting.

Your straight-up approach is indeed refreshing. Thanks for the WinTicket phone#. Would I be correct in assuming that although your personal bets go there, the Player’s Pool Wagers do not? Actually my question #4 was poorly posed. It probably isn’t important WHO receives a rebate, only whether or not ANYONE does. I’m sure if no rebate were involved, you would have been allowed to tell us that yourself, and certainly would have.

Please do not consider me a detractor of you, personally. Who of us here wouldn’t accept this plum of a role you play in the process though few anywhere could match your credentials and previous successes. Is it possible, however, that your participation in this thread is motivated by a need to bail out a sinking ship?

Horseplayers cannot be protected from themselves. Wagers placed on Shake You Down in the BC Turf and the rabbit entry in the Woodward proved that. If some of the points made and information provided in this thread aren’t convincing enough to cook this “Golden Goose” . . .

Anyway, I hope other industry insiders will follow your lead and participate with equal candor here for whatever reasons they may have for doing so.

Regards,
Indulto

[Indulto]

TT,

George of the Jungle (cartoon). As worthy an avatar as Foghorn Leghorn, he should be the official mascot of the Society for the Prevention of Players Pool Participants Postrace Pouting.

P.S., my all-time favorite thread here was the one about Jay Ward (Bullwinkle).

[rrpic6]

Linrom1:

Saeed Bin Suroor, Godolphin's main man, is 18% on the Turf this year. His total win percentage is 23%. Don't let the truth get in the way of making your opinions.

[rrpic6]

Swetyejohn:

Great Question! I was waiting for that one. That scenario was far more scarier than dealing with you guys here. We would have been investigated by the NTRA and the FBI for fraud and possibly worse. We could not take the chance that one of Brad's friends could have hit the Pick 6 by blind luck by singaling his horse. Someone did hit the Ultra Pick6 when Arcangue won, by pressing the wrong number on a SAM Machine. Just another crazy thing to chew on.

[rrpic6]

Indulto:

I appreciate your candor. You certainly pose great questions. A budding reporter? I actually stumbled on this webpage by talking to a guy that works at Mountaineer Park. Great info from some great minds ( and a few smartasses). I enjoy shooting the s**t with horseplayers. I wish I was able to bet the Players' Pool money thru my own account, but its not the case. That would make the 27 or 28% the IRS has gotten from anything over 5K easy pickings for me. Yet another chink in our armor...I don't know how to get my percentage of this back when I do my taxes since no witholding in on the W-2s.

[JustRalph]

Linrom1:

Saeed Bin Suroor, Godolphin's main man, is 18% on the Turf this year. His total win percentage is 23%. Don't let the truth get in the way of making your opinions.

Whack! Good one Ron! :D :lol: :lol: Some guy working at MNR? I wonder who that could have been?

[rrpic6]

JUST RALPH--- When in West Virginia, its best to remain anonymous!

[linrom1]

Linrom1:

Saeed Bin Suroor, Godolphin's main man, is 18% on the Turf this year. His total win percentage is 23%. Don't let the truth get in the way of making your opinions.

Ok, don't let funny statistics let you astray. That 23% represents 6 wins in 2005. Do you want to tell me to how many races he's won on dirt outside US? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[rrpic6]

Ok, don't let funny statistics let you astray. That 23% represents 6 wins in 2005. Do you want to tell me to how many races he's won on dirt outside US? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you tell me how many dirt tracks there are outside of the U.S. Of course Trainers based in Hong Kong, New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland, France, Germany, Australia, and even UAE run almost exclusively on Turf. That does not mean they are Turf Specialists. Godolphins' supreme goal is to win the Kentucky Derby. The only thing they are specialists in are spending ungodly amounts of money on regally bred yearlings.

[rokitman]

Hey rr. I'm impressed to see you here. I wouldn't be, if I were you :D
In case ya don't know-in your profile for the site, you can put people on a list to ignore them. Makes their posts disappear. Try it on linrom1, just to see if it's working good.

[JustRalph]

JUST RALPH--- When in West Virginia, its best to remain anonymous!

I was actually being a little sarcastic........most of the regulars around here know who your man was..........

[rrpic6]

Hey rr. I'm impressed to see you here. I wouldn't be, if I were you :D
In case ya don't know-in your profile for the site, you can put people on a list to ignore them. Makes their posts disappear. Try it on linrom1, just to see if it's working good.
No reason to put him on ignore. Ignorance is bliss..he must be a very happy guy.If I just wanted to spend other people's money, as he said earlier, I would have changed my name to george w. bush. A quatrillion dollars spent in Iraq. His stats are impressive, 30,000 dead Iraqui civilians to 2000+ Americans. Its also torture watching draft dodger DICK cheney babble on about how great this war is. Think of our soldiers this Thanksgiving. Give to charity today instead of Churchill Downs.

[headhawg]

No reason to put him on ignore. Ignorance is bliss..he must be a very happy guy.If I just wanted to spend other people's money, as he said earlier, I would have changed my name to george w. bush. A quatrillion dollars spent in Iraq. His stats are impressive, 30,000 dead Iraqui civilians to 2000+ Americans. Its also torture watching draft dodger DICK cheney babble on about how great this war is. Think of our soldiers this Thanksgiving. Give to charity today instead of Churchill Downs.
I'm not a Dubya fan, but these comments belongs in Off Topic. Don't start alienating more people. The Pick 6 performance is bad enough.

[garyoz]

One thing that makes this forum great is that political garbage is kept to off topic. I think rr has enough to deal with concerning fiduciary issues, not to mention fundamentals like ticket structure.

[JustRalph]

Don't start alienating more people. The Pick 6 performance is bad enough.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: rough room!

[toetoe]

No comment on the pick-six, but no war talk, jeez. I AM proud of the steep, screaming lurch into extratopical hyperspace. I'm still the king of that, of course. Hey, didja hear the one ... blah ... blah ...?

[Indulto]

rrpic6,

A little shock and awe to go with all that candor? Obviously you haven’t undergone the “ultimate equipment change”.

Horses slaughtered in China recently drew more sympathy than humans slaughtered in Iraq. Here’s hoping all the racing fans in uniform over there get back safely to take their chances in the pools rather than with their lives, and all the others to practice their favorite perversion as well.

If the Kurds are willing to gamble with their own safety to get us to leave, we should consider taking their action.

Happy Thanksgiving and keep bailing.

[PaceAdvantage]

For all those NOT in the know, NO POLITICALLY ORIENTED TALK WILL BE TOLERATED IN THE HORSE RACING FORUMS. This INCLUDES politically motivated AVATARS or other graphic images.

If you want to talk politics, OFF-TOPIC (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5) is the place for those kinds of posts.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[Indulto]

PA,

Sorry about the protocol violation. What is the suggested alternative for replying publicly to another poster who may not be looking outside the thread containing his/her post?

At the risk of becoming a repeat offender as I await your reply (hopefully, where I can find it), could you also clarify where you draw the line? Given that almost everything is subject to political interpretation, and that my attempts at humor and irony related to horses and gambling, why doesn’t the “Ultra Disturbing …” thread also belong off-topic?

Also, what discussions could be more political than those involving the NYRA, its oversight committee, FNYR, the Attorney General, and the Governor?

[PaceAdvantage]

Indulto, this rule has been in place virtually since the off-topic forums were created here, and there has never been much of any ambiguity as to what is and what isn't allowed.

Your examples are ALL racing related and thus belong in the racing topics. You don't really need me to tell you this.

George Bush and the IRAQ war have nothing to do with racing. Again, you don't need me to tell you this.

Thanks again for your cooperation.

PS. I will clarify the position further, for Indulto's benefit:

NON-RACING RELATED POLITICAL TALK WILL NOT BE TOLERATED IN THE HORSE RACING SECTION, only in OFF TOPIC.

[lsbets]

I think the key would be does it relate to horse racing and horses. While the NYRA is mired in political garbage, that is political garbage that directly affects horseracing. The killing of lots of horses at a track is pretty relevant to general racing issues (life after racing). I don't know where PA sees the line, but I would guess its somewhere near there.

[Indulto]

PA,

I'm glad you made the effort to be as clear as possible. Cooperation sometimes requires clarification, but clarification doesn’t require contempt. At another time in another thread, perhaps someone will explain why you may need to be told how your two exceptions have plenty to do with racing from several standpoints including security, attendance, handle, employee benefits, and veterinary medicine – just to name a few.

Meanwhile, I’m here to have a good time which seems to happen a lot under your capable administration.

[rrpic6]

Sorry to cause trouble. I should have just said Happy Thanksgiving to all. Not too worried about any fiduciary problems either. If I knew how to structure my own pic 6's, I would not have had to bet 50K of the Player's pool money.

Churchill (http://javascript<b></b>:%20byTrack('Churchill');)5Pick-6 (http://javascript<b></b>:%20byPool('Pick-6');)$2.00 2+3+4+9+10/5/2+5/1+6/8/3 $40.00

Churchill (http://javascript<b></b>:%20byTrack('Churchill');)5Pick-6 (http://javascript<b></b>:%20byPool('Pick-6');)$2.00 4+6+8+10/11/4+5+7+11/2+5/9/3+5+7+10 $256.00 These were from the 2 previous days before the PPool with my own money. Check the results to see how I did.

[rrpic6]

Oops...the $40.00 was from 11-16 and the $256.00 11-18. I see no one has come forth to say they bet Sundrop on Saturday. I bet 35K on Arch Assault in the last race...it was our single...with other peoples' money...shame on me.

[Indulto]

FWIW I cashed the final P3 including Sundrop which I bet after Righteous Ruler finished 2nd in the 7th blowing my P4 which I bet after Deputy Banker finished 2nd in the 5th blowing my P6. Do I get any points for having had Sundrop on all my P6 and P4 tickets which also singled Arch Assault?

I can’t picture myself betting 35K with anybody’s money as I can still remember my knees buckling on my virgin visit to the ten dollar window. Fortunately I only chase weekend P6s with carryovers and nobody else red boards my selections. Unfortunately I’m still waiting at the alter for 6 of 6.

[rrpic6]

Damn, wish I would have come on board here before we sent the picks in to the big computer. I would have gladly given you 10% of my 0.5% winnings. I know the pic 3 and pic 4 drill, as I took a stand against Artie Schiller, Ashado and Society Selection in all my rolling bets. I was right on 2 of 3 but still lost 'em.

[Indulto]

Maybe my fantasy (post #24) is about to come true!


System Would Increase Revenue From Account Bets
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=31848


"An electronic commerce company hopes to introduce a Web-based program that would convert legal pari-mutuel Internet wagers into on-track bets, thus increasing the share of revenue to tracks and horsemen. . . .


"It would allow racetracks to get a majority of the takeout," Stinson said. "Our industry is the only industry I know of that voluntary gave away its content. It's a flawed system. Even advance deposit wagering companies are working on small margins. Tracks are selling their signals at ridiculously low prices." . . ."

[toetoe]

Here's an idea. The tracks organize and retain the rights to PP's and charts for races run at their very own tracks. People that bet enough money get video , PP's charts, the works. Bettors go from :bang: to :cool:

[highnote]

Maybe tracks are selling their signals at ridiculously high prices. Maybe if they sold their signals even cheaper they would generate huge handle that would more than offset what they make from their high ontrack takeout.

Has anyone seen any studies on the fee that simulcast signal sellers charge vs. handle from the signal buyer? I would think that handle is inversely proportional to the costs to the bettors. Lower cost = higher handle.

Doesn't higher handle usually cause greater revenue for everyone -- tracks, horsemen, bettors, state?

Also, if the states would tax the pari-mutuel industry less, I would think handle would go up because takeout would go down -- the same inverse relationship. The industry would grow. And the increase in revenue industrywide would generate taxable income far greater than the exhorbitant tax the states asses on pari-mutuel handle now. It's simple trickle down economics, right? Or am I missing something here.

Can anyone explain why states tax wagers? Shouldn't they be taxing net income. When we make wagers the net income is not known -- for winning ticket holders or for other parties in the industry -- until expenses are deducted. Same for the racetracks -- there is no taxable income until expenses are deducted from revenue. So isn't a state pari-mutuel tax really a penalty -- or in best case -- a surtax?

I understand why the horsemen get a share of the wagering. How else would purses be funded? Of course, other professional sports don't rely on wagering subsidies. But that's probably a whole other subject.

I never really thought about this much until now. I'm always interested in learning more about all aspects of our great industry. Any input welcome.

[JackS]

PA- Didn't know about the trouble but I did attend a Jones Seminar at SA in late 80's early 90's, in which all attendees where offered "buy in" on the P6 that day. Hope he didn't get in too much trouble over this.