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Dick Schmidt
06-20-2002, 03:09 AM
Review of Toteboard Voodoo

Book by Charles Ubil

Review by Dick Schmidt



After I got this book, I remembered why I never used to let authors send me free copies of a book or computer program. It makes me feel beholding to them. Charles Ubil (Camptownraces) was nice enough to send me a copy of his book and now I’m going to pay him back by giving it a bad review. Not very polite, but if I pull my punches because Charles is willing to let it all hang out for everyone to see, many of you might buy a book that isn’t at all what you expect. So I’m going to be honest. Sorry, Charles.

Before starting, I must admit to a prejudice about toteboard play. It seems to me that what you are doing is letting the tote (public) make your choices for you. It takes away some of the pressure by offloading it onto “them”, but I like to feel that I can do better than the public. If I can’t, I see no reason to play at all. Now, let’s get into the book.

First off, there isn’t much to this book. Literally. It is 56 pages, each page is 5 by 8 inches and a lot of it is printed in a large font. The first 15 pages contain such gems as what a daily double is, what an exacta consists of and other tidbits most of us learned on our first trip to the track. He goes on to explain such esoteric bets as an exacta key and dutching three horses when you don’t think the favorite will win. This whole book could be boiled down to 5 or 6 magazine pages.

He provides 10 examples, one each for his Main Patterns. He then tells you that if you want more examples, he has a couple more books to sell you with lots of patterns. I really hate that. For $50, I’d think he could afford to send along a couple hundred examples. Anyway, all this is just me being picky. Who cares how long the book is or what I think if the stuff really works? So I sat down and recorded patterns using BRIS tote. I wrote down odds until I was seeing numbers in my sleep. This is a LOT of work. Maybe not so bad doing just one track, but I did 50 races in two days and damn near went blind. How’d I do? Well, I cashed some $4 and $5 tickets, but most of the time I was just confused. Had I been betting, and played every race where I had some inkling of which pattern was showing, I’d have lost about 25% on the day. The good news is that I’d have passed almost half of the races where I could find no pattern at all.

Time after time, I’d look for patterns and just not find any. Most of the time, the morning line favorite opened as the betting favorite, stayed right there until the 3 minute mark (when the book tells you to go make your bet) and then the horse either won or lost in random fashion. Even after I knew the winners, I couldn’t find a match to any of the patterns. Believe me, as an old Sartin guy, I’m real good at handicapping once I know the winner. I almost never loose. Not this time.

Let me show you what I’m talking about with a short excerpt. I hope the formatting comes out OK. The first number is the number of the horse, followed by the morning line and then 8 different sets of odds, taken starting at 10 minutes to post and counting down to 3 minutes to go.




1 – 10 - 7 / 7 / 7 / 7 / 7 / 8 / 8 / 7

2 –9\2 – 11 / 11 / 11 / 11 / 11 / 9 / 9 / 7

3 – 12 - 5 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5

4 – 5\2 – 3 / 2.5 / 2.5 / 2.5 / 2.5 / 2.5 / 2

5 – 15 - 25 / 25 / 25 / 25 / 25 / 22 / 22 / 22

6 – 8\5 - 8\5 / 8\5 / 8\5 / 9\5 / 9\5 / 9\5 / 9\5 / 2

7 – 20 – 40 / 40 / 40 / 40 / 40 / 45 / 45 / 50

8 – 8 – 9\2 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5


“Take a look at this race. Looks like the favorites are well separated from the rest of the field, right? Yes, they are. However, you had better take a closer look at the subtle hints the public will reveal to you.

“So how is this race different than the last one?

“Well, first and foremost, the Morning Line Favorite is overlayed, not bet down like the last one was. Also, the second favorite in the betting was dropping in odds to end up tying the betting favorite for the favoritism. This clearly shows you that the Publics confidence level was not as high as it was on the betting favorite in that last race you just looked at.

“Another BIG factor is that this race was a cheap race.

“This is the 10th Race from Golden Gate, on December 12, 1999. They were 3 years old and up $3,250 claimers with a purse of $6,500 going 6 furlongs.

“Like I said, a cheap race.

“This is when you use the Favorite Split Wagering Formula.”


Got that? I sure don’t understand it well enough to make a bet based on what I just read. Oh, I can see the two favorites, but the pattern recognition is hard. If I see this pattern in a high class race, do I do something else? If I like the odds, can I bet both favorites to win? Lots of unanswered questions. Also, I don’t think a horse is overlayed just because it is above its morning line odds. Obviously Ubil doesn’t understand what a morning line actually is.

Anyway, he goes on to key the two favorites over the 3rd, 4th and 5th odds horses (the 1, 3 and 8) in exacta boxes, somehow figuring that “what is being said here is that we know one of the favorites is good”. Just how we know this must be in another book. Just how we know one of the favorites won’t run second isn’t mentioned either. So we bet our $24 exacta box and the four horse wins, pays $7, with the three second to key a $39 exacta. This is considered an outstanding example of toteboard handicapping. We would make more money betting both horses to win, but this is the “proper” way to bet this pattern. The above example, by the way, took almost a page and a half in this 56 page book, if you want to see how dense the information is packed.

Now, to be fair, it may be that you need to do this for hundreds of races to develop an eye for the patterns. If so, what do you need this book for? If you have to learn it on your own, and the book doesn’t really give you much of a head start, skip the book. This is the ultimate “soft focus, let the patterns emerge, let the race speak to you” kind of playing there is. Voodoo is really a good name for it. It reminds me of some of Huey Mahl’s poorer work. No stats, no tests, nothing TO really test. Only Huey would have sold it for $3 and somewhere buried in there would be a couple of really good tips on how to recognize at least some of the patterns, plus better betting advice. After investing two days without noticeable improvement or any indication of profits to come, I decided I couldn’t afford to give Toteboard Voodoo any more time.

Let me conclude as Mr. Ubil concludes. “Knowing Which Formulas to use for Which Patterns can be tricky . . . Again and Again, I will say that it just Takes PRACTICE!” “I just can’t say it enough! ‘Paper Bet’ for as long as it takes to get familiar with the Patterns that are being created at your favorite track. As all as (sic) it will cost you is your time.”

It seems to me that you could “Practice, Practice, Practice” for a long time before you figured this stuff out. Or you could use the time to learn to handicap. Buy this book only if you really like looking at lots and lots of rows and rows of numbers and are convinced that everyone else at the track knows more than you do.

aaron
06-20-2002, 09:14 AM
Thanks Dick-Your review was right on,but unfortunately I purchased the book last week.
I've always used the toteboard to some degree in my handicapping,but purchasing this book adds nothing to my handicapping arsenal.It has been my experience that most handicapping books have some interesting thoughts in them.This book is the exception.There really is not one concrete thought in the book.

CamptownRaces.com
06-20-2002, 11:07 AM
Sorry you feel that way...

Not everybody does though...

This is an email I just got 2 days ago...

"Charles,
I finally received your new book today. I found it very interesting, as I have played around with some toteboard stuff of my own in the past. (Mostly involving perfecta/win ratios.)
I'm a high school math teacher with summer vacation fast approaching, and I'd like to give your method an honest try."

I guess it's just what you like and dislike...

Thanks for giving an honest review Dick...

I do wish you had an easier time seeing the Patterns though...

Charles

so.cal.fan
06-20-2002, 12:31 PM
I rarely look at toteboards, never check exotic pools, because I bet to win only.
I am not good at math.
However, I have a question.
We have established the fact that 25% to 55% of the total pools are coming in very, very late.
How can you tell ANYTHING by the tote board?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

GameTheory
06-20-2002, 12:50 PM
Without regard to whether Charles' methods are or aren't any good, as I stated in another thread, if you are looking for PATTERNS CREATED BY LOTS OF PEOPLE BETTING, then it does not matter if only half the eventual total money is there. It only matters that MANY PEOPLE HAVE BET.


I think people assume all toteboard methods revolve around tracking the "smart money" from a few insiders or require a certain ratio of this to that to remain constant after the bell goes off. But if we assume that each individual is a "weak" predictor, we can generate (possibly, this is theory) a "strong" prediction by creating our own WEIGHTED CONSENSUS of the hints that are displayed in the patterns generated over time. In short, I don't care about the "smart" money -- I'm interested in what all the dumb bettors are doing, and in what proportions, etc.

Does this make sense to anyone?

so.cal.fan
06-20-2002, 01:07 PM
Thanks, GT
That does make sense.
The vast majority of the pool, early, middle, or late is DUMB MONEY.

ranchwest
06-20-2002, 05:22 PM
Charles,

The email implies that the purchaser has not actually tried the product yet. He simply seems to be satisfied with the appearance of what he received. Unlike Dick, he seems to think that the brevity of the material is acceptable. However, he hasn't said anything about results.

Derek2U
06-20-2002, 05:43 PM
GT ... may i suggest that you type sensible stuff in the future.
TY

GameTheory
06-20-2002, 10:46 PM
Ok, but only if you lay off the drugs.

sligg
06-21-2002, 12:55 AM
Back in the 1970's, I charted the tote board with every flash for about a year. Early money, late money, big drops, small drops, 3 minute betdowns, zero minutes betdowns, zig-zag patterns, win/place and win/show money ratios. I tried them all but never found a pattern that worked consistently.

Think about it! If there was any pattern that worked, every horse player would know about it and that would be the end of that pattern. The tote board will never be the "Holy Grail" we are all looking for.

I have bought all the books I could find on tote board methods and I never found one that worked especially the ones sold by RPM.

I still have my charts, so if any one has a tote pattern that he wants to check out, I'm willing to oblige with a test.

My opinion: The tote board, in spite of Milton Gaines "The Tote Board Is Alive" is dead, totally and irrevocablly dead.

Do any of you remember the Mad Bomber of Aqueduct fame (I think in the 1980's) who screwed up the tote board with his massive win bets. His bets always became the odds on favorite and they invariably lost. Then as quick as he came on the scene, he stopped betting just as quickly. So what did he know...NOTHING.

And that is what I'm saying: The tote board knows nothing, oh it may tease you and sometimes caress you but it will always leave you high and dry.

so.cal.fan
06-21-2002, 01:10 AM
Thanks for your post, Sal.
If that doesn't convince people of the folly of the "tout" board, I don't know what will.

GameTheory
06-21-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by sligg
Back in the 1970's, I charted the tote board with every flash for about a year. Early money, late money, big drops, small drops, 3 minute betdowns, zero minutes betdowns, zig-zag patterns, win/place and win/show money ratios. I tried them all but never found a pattern that worked consistently.


Mostly examples of just the sort of patterns I would not be looking for, except possibly as they related to a specific trainer. I haven't looked into that. These things are probably also somewhat track dependent.

Ratios in general have been somewhat useful, but in relationships between horses (or to the total pool) rather than for a single horse. For instance, a horse other than the win favorite which is the favorite in the place pool for a certain period of time and with a couple of other conditions I have found makes a profitable win bet. I don't have huge samples to back that up, but that one shows a few hundred races I think in my data.

I also have found ways of finding "legitmate" favorites by analyzing the pools (via computer method). The favorites the computer identifies as "good" outperform their odds well enough to at least break even. (That is a black box method -- I couldn't even tell you what the computer is looking at.)



Think about it! If there was any pattern that worked, every horse player would know about it and that would be the end of that pattern. The tote board will never be the "Holy Grail" we are all looking for.


You could say the same thing about any set of numbers you were looking at in order to determine bets. If everyone used the same method, it wouldn't work anymore. Of course. But why would "every horse player know about it"? Most of the stuff I'm talking about can't even be accomplished by a person with a pen & paper -- it is too complicated to do in the time allotted.

The information on the tote is just an abstraction of the information in the Racing Form and elsewhere. It represents people's reaction to the "fundamental" information if you will. So you try to identify the public's bias and BET AGAINST THEM (bet with the minority, not the majority). It is not "letting the public choose for you" any more than you are letting Andrew Beyer choose for you if you rely on his speed figs.



And that is what I'm saying: The tote board knows nothing, oh it may tease you and sometimes caress you but it will always leave you high and dry.


The tote board "knows" everything that it is the Racing Form and on the backstretch, just in a different form. Is it random? It knows who 1/3 of the winners are. Do you? Whether it can really be mined to provide something useful or profitable is another story. It is quite probable that any successful toteboard method would be more difficult to come up with than a "normal" method, and couldn't be done by hand.

It seems I am talking about a new frontier of analysis that previously wasn't possible. It would have been impossible to gather all the data previously by hand (not only odds, but dollar amounts, simultaneously looking at all exacta combos, etc.) and any method likely to prove fruitful will also take a computer to do the analysis.

But there is nothing mysterious about it -- you're just looking for predictive factors, as always. I don't understand the emotional reactions people seem to have to this subject...

so.cal.fan
06-21-2002, 10:07 AM
GT

"Most of the stuff I'm talking about can't even be accomplished by a person with a pen & paper -- it is too complicated to do in the time allotted".

For many years people have had good and bad ways of handicapping horses, using a pen and paper AND computers!
The percentage of favorites still remains pretty much the same.

"I don't understand the emotional reactions people seem to have to this subject"

Neither do I, Game Theory. I have watched "board" players for years, they never change their "cultist" tune.
In forty years at the track, I have never met one or heard of one with any kind of a bankroll they kept.

They are ALWAYS telling people of their WAY to play horses.
AlWAYS trying to convince people they are right.

IMHO, Game Theory, if you have to keep convincing people of your method, you don't really believe in it!

;)

GameTheory
06-21-2002, 11:35 AM
Well, I don't have a method, and I'm not trying to convince anybody that playing solely by the toteboard is the way to go, because you're right, I don't believe that for a second.

I'm just musing and doing research. Some people seem downright offended if you suggest that the toteboard has ANYTHING to offer -- even just checking odds on a horse you might want to bet.

But if you were to come up with the ULTIMATE TOTAL COMPREHENSIVE HANDICAPPING METHOD, the tote would certainly play some part. And maybe there are stronger clues there than people tend to think, and that along with your normal handicapping might get you a few more winners and a few less losers.

tanda
06-26-2002, 05:08 PM
Obviously Ubil doesn’t understand what a morning line actually is.

However, 1 of the top 3 favorites on the morning line, wins the race a phenomenal 39.4% of the time, and is in the exacta an average of 50.2%. Now, you CAN'T Dutch the 3 and come out winning in the long run, but to totally ignore the morning line odds is out of the question for me.

Dick's comment reminds me of Mr. Ubil's quote which confirmed for me that Mr. Ubil knows very little about handicapping.

Anybody who believes that picking the winner less than 40% of the time from among your top three picks is phenomenal does not understand horse racing.

Anybody with a passing familiarity with the game can identify numerous methods that identify three contenders who win 50% or more of the time. I believe any competent handicapper can approach and exceed 67% which is the public's rate. In fact, if you cannot, then you probably cannot beat the game.

Also, the ML top three win considerably more than 39.4%.

So, his description of the 39.4% performance as phenomenal is plain silly and his factual statement that the rate is in fact 39.4% is flat wrong.

ranchwest
06-26-2002, 05:25 PM
I've seen spot play methods that hit over 39% winners and lost money. Percentage alone doesn't tell us much.

Rick
06-26-2002, 07:13 PM
GT,

I totally agree with you. I think that the toteboard does have something to offer us as far as improving our ROI. The fact is that during certain periods of time, the money can be maybe 10% smarter than at other periods of time and that can be a significant factor. Now, I'm not currently using any of this but I can tell you that in the past I've won money using only toteboard patterns over a significant number of races. However, the patterns weren't anything like what Ubil is selling and my results are from the 80's at Northern California tracks only. If anyone is interested, I can detail the methods I used (which are out of print now), but I can't say that I'm sure they work any more since the distribution of money has changed so much since then.

GameTheory
06-26-2002, 07:55 PM
I would like to see you detail them -- if they don't involve too much judgement I can even run a test through my recent data and see how they fare these days...

Rick
06-27-2002, 11:51 AM
GT,

Here's one that did very well:

Beginning at 15 minutes to post, find any horses going up in odds according to the following restrictions


Low Odds High Odds
--------- ----------
<=5-2.......>=7-2
3-1...........>=4-1
7-2...........>=9-2
4-1...........>=6-1
9-2...........>=7-1
5-1...........>=8-1
6-1...........>=9-1
7-1...........>=11-1
8-1...........>=13-1
9-1...........>=15-1

Nothing over 9-1 low odds is considered. If there is only one horse fitting this pattern then it is a play. If two or more, no play. The high odds do not have to stay that way until post time. You can have a 3-1 horse go up to 4-1 at some point and later go back down to 7-2 for example and it would still be a play. In my test there were about 3 plays per day with about 20% wins and 10% profit if I recall correctly.

Rick
06-27-2002, 12:16 PM
I apologize for the formatting of the above post, but I can't seem to get the columns to line up correctly using spaces and don't want to spend all day troubleshooting it.

so.cal.fan
06-27-2002, 12:23 PM
I read sometime back, that there is very little difference in the percentage of winners in the 6/1 to 12/1 area.
Does anyone know if this is true?

BillW
06-27-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by so.cal.fan
I read sometime back, that there is very little difference in the percentage of winners in the 6/1 to 12/1 area.
Does anyone know if this is true?

so.cal,

Here is data from my database. all on dry dirt, all classes, all distances - 13852 races:

| | | % Expected |
Odds | Starters | % Winners | Winners |
--------|-----------|-----------|------------|
1:5 | 345 | 62.03% | 83.33% |
2:5 | 300 | 51.33% | 71.43% |
1:2 | 0 | 0.00% | 66.67% |
3:5 | 1626 | 47.60% | 62.50% |
4:5 | 569 | 44.29% | 55.56% |
1 | 2159 | 38.07% | 50.00% |
6:5 | 1638 | 35.47% | 45.45% |
7:5 | 0 | 0.00% | 41.67% |
3:2 | 1676 | 34.55% | 40.00% |
8:5 | 913 | 28.92% | 38.46% |
9:5 | 2926 | 27.89% | 35.71% |
2 | 4178 | 25.18% | 33.33% |
5:2 | 5406 | 22.22% | 28.57% |
3 | 5841 | 18.66% | 25.00% |
7:2 | 3677 | 17.38% | 22.22% |
4 | 4855 | 15.08% | 20.00% |
9:2 | 3614 | 13.31% | 18.18% |
5 | 6265 | 12.07% | 16.67% |
6 | 5126 | 10.73% | 14.29% |
7 | 5445 | 9.57% | 12.50% |
8 | 3862 | 9.09% | 11.11% |
9 | 4331 | 7.50% | 10.00% |
10 | 3507 | 6.81% | 9.09% |
--- | 49058 | 3.04% | < 8.33% |
<= 1:1 | 4999 | 44.33% | 58.28% |
1 - 2 | 11331 | 29.05% | 37.10% |
2 - 3 | 11247 | 20.37% | 26.72% |
3 - 4 | 8532 | 16.07% | 20.96% |
4 - 5 | 9879 | 12.52% | 17.22% |

I have some rounding error in my (Beta!) software causing the 1:2 and 7:5 categories to be = 0. But otherwise the data is accurate.

The "---" category is anything over 10:1. The last 5 data rows are just a synopsis of the previous data. The "expected winners" value is based purely on the odds converted to a percentage. I think if you adjust odds for takeout the percent winners correlates reasonably close to the actual odds.

Bill

cj
06-27-2002, 02:03 PM
BillW,

Since no odds category reaches the expected win %, can I assume you are not factoring in takeout?

CJ

GameTheory
06-27-2002, 02:49 PM
Yes.

Re-read Bill's last paragraph.

cj
06-27-2002, 03:36 PM
DOH! My bad!

CJ

Rick
07-09-2002, 06:51 PM
I've always wondered why threads like this always seem to die out. I posted a set of rules for a method that worked during the 80's. Now, it's entirely likely that the method doesn't work now, which is why I'm not devoting any time researching it, but it's also possible that someone else has tested it and hasn't told us what the results were, either good or bad. I've corresponded with several people by e-mail as well, and every time I've mentioned an idea that used to work, I've never heard from them again. Are the ideas so bad that they just didn't want to tell me or do people not give you credit if you know something good? Really though, I consider negative feedback to be at least as useful as positive feedback. Obviously, I'm not going to post for all of the world what I think works really well now for me.

GameTheory
07-09-2002, 07:53 PM
Well, speaking for myself, since I helped prompt you:

There's this thing called time, and I never seem to have enough of it.

I'm quite interested in any sort of ideas along these lines, and about a million others. So when I hear such an idea, it gets "on the list", but that doesn't mean I'll get to it soon.

Actually, what I've been working on lately is making a nice big organized database so I can find such answers (more) quickly.

I promise if I ever time the time to check something out based on what you've told me, I'll report back the results.

If I don't, that just means I didn't get to it yet, not that I'm keeping secrets...

Rick
07-10-2002, 04:17 AM
GT,

Sorry for the rant. I certainly hope nobody's life out there is 100% devoted to horse racing because that would be sad indeed. I should do more testing myself and post the results, but for the same reasons you mentioned, ...