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View Full Version : Zafonic v Dancing Brave

dancingbrave
11-01-2005, 05:19 PM
Just a flippant thought. Who do you think would have won between the two over a mile in say good ground at say Newmarket at their very best? decent pace assumed.
Zaf
11-01-2005, 10:24 PM
Guess who I think :lol:

Z
Zaf
11-01-2005, 11:28 PM
http://www.stallions.com.au/archive/zafonic_racerecord.asp

ZAFONIC
dancingbrave
11-02-2005, 12:12 AM
I asked this question because these two horses displayed arguably the most electrifying turns of foot ever seen and whilst I have the highest regard for zafonic's 2000 guines performance I think Dancing would have gone to the front 2 furlongs and never been caught winning maybe by a length and a half.
dancingbrave
11-02-2005, 11:35 AM
http://www.jockeysite.com/stories/dancingbrave.htm
Valuist
11-02-2005, 12:42 PM
Just as long as Manila and Theatrical aren't in there against D.B. :D
46zilzal
11-02-2005, 12:51 PM
the tight course and hot weather beat him ...It was fun to hear Eddery making all kinds of lame excuses too
Valuist
11-02-2005, 01:04 PM
Zilzal-

I know you have a great memory for these older races. Who was the heavily bet Euro that Steinlen beat in the 1989 Mile? I seem to remember hearing the same excuses (heat, tight turns, etc etc).
cj
11-02-2005, 01:26 PM
Zilzal-

I know you have a great memory for these older races. Who was the heavily bet Euro that Steinlen beat in the 1989 Mile? I seem to remember hearing the same excuses (heat, tight turns, etc etc).

You are joking, right? (It was Zilzal)
Valuist
11-02-2005, 01:32 PM
LOL. Actually I wasn't. I was drawing a blank on that. :bang:
dancingbrave
11-02-2005, 01:42 PM
If anyoe trully thinks that Manilla or Theatrical were in the same league as dancing brave they need a serious wake up call. Sure dancing brave got beat travelling to the other side of the world on a tight track and at the end of a hard season. The european trainers at least have the guts to send their horses over, more than can be said for their US counterparts who are never seen outside the US unless it's for the Dubai world cup.
Valuist
11-02-2005, 01:48 PM
Why should they? Other than the Arc, the money for older horses is on our side of the Atlantic.

Funny thing, when I went to cash in my win bet on Manila, the teller didn't say they wouldn't pay because Dancing Brave had to travel, and deal w/heat, etc etc yada yada yada.
cj
11-02-2005, 01:53 PM
If anyoe trully thinks that Manilla or Theatrical were in the same league as dancing brave they need a serious wake up call. Sure dancing brave got beat travelling to the other side of the world on a tight track and at the end of a hard season. The european trainers at least have the guts to send their horses over, more than can be said for their US counterparts who are never seen outside the US unless it's for the Dubai world cup.

Since they beat him on the track, maybe Dancing Brave was able to outperform the two mentioned at stud?
Valuist
11-02-2005, 01:59 PM
I don't even think that was the case. I hardly ever recall seeing any of his offspring. Obviously, the overwhelming majority will race in Europe but there's quite a few European horses who come over here after starting their careers in the UK or France.

Let's not forget that Manila and Theatrical were champions in their own right. The Euros said Theatrical wasnt much in Europe; maybe that was true but he was pretty damn good when he was over here. Manila, Theatrical, Dancing Brave and the filly champion Estrapade all in that race. Had to be the strongest edition of the BC Turf.
46zilzal
11-02-2005, 02:02 PM
If anyoe trully thinks that Manilla or Theatrical were in the same league as dancing brave they need a serious wake up call. Sure dancing brave got beat travelling to the other side of the world on a tight track and at the end of a hard season. The european trainers at least have the guts to send their horses over, more than can be said for their US counterparts who are never seen outside the US unless it's for the Dubai world cup.

One can argue til the cows come home but ON THAT DAY, I wore a shirt to the Breeders' Cup annoncing that this guy would fail I was so sure of it...yelling Manila Manila the entire time


You can read all about it in Perry Lefkto's book http://www.horse-races.net/library/review-102003x.htm

Hmmm they only talk here about Rick's Natural Star, but MY story is in this book!!
toetoe
11-02-2005, 05:44 PM
Valuist,

Unless that's a trick question whose answer is Zilzal, it must be Warning. Wait, he was in '88 when Miesque repeated. I give up. How about Rock Of Gibraltar over all of 'em?
46zilzal
11-02-2005, 05:55 PM
Valuist,

Unless that's a trick question whose answer is Zilzal, it must be Warning. Wait, he was in '88 when Miesque repeated. I give up. How about Rock Of Gibraltar over all of 'em?
Warning had headed Miesque ONCE in a close photo in 1987 but was nothing like the same animal the next year. Warning was SCRATCHED in 1989

Zilzal was EVEN money in 1989 with THIS comment int the CHART (I wouldn't have bet him) "Zilzal was allowed to leave the paddock early and did not participate in the post parade, was sweating profusely in warm weather and was reluctant to go into the gate delaying the start for a few minutes, failed to break alertly, improved his position to midstrech then could not appreciably gain."

Warning ran 11th as the 1.9/1 choice in 1988
dancingbrave
11-02-2005, 06:23 PM
wastn't most welcome 2nd in that race - a horse not in the same league as zilzal back home?
dancingbrave
11-02-2005, 06:27 PM
The bottom line is that any european breeders cup victories should be regarded as a surprise given the time of season, difference in types of track and travelling.

I never bet any of them bar the turf in which I'd always do a couple of the value shots.

When the US horses come over and win the 2000 Guineas, Derby,Eclipse, King george or Arc talk to me then.
toetoe
11-02-2005, 06:29 PM
Ah, those not-so-heady days. NBC had that ubiquitous nut in the deerstalker cap AND Brough Scott. Scott was okay, except he jumped all over the place, like an old lady at the races for the first time. "Miesque will win. No, wait, Warning looks so pretty in the warmups, now he's my pick. Can I change my mind?" So, of course, big chalk won and bad second chalk was a distant third, I think.
46zilzal
11-02-2005, 07:04 PM
wastn't most welcome 2nd in that race - a horse not in the same league as zilzal back home?

Steinlein, Sabona, Most Welcome

I am with you however in wanting to see SOME of the B.C. races happen ELSEWHERE or at a course (Woodbine) where things are equal
46zilzal
11-02-2005, 07:16 PM
Ah, those not-so-heady days. NBC had that ubiquitous nut in the deerstalker cap AND Brough Scott. Scott was okay, except he jumped all over the place, like an old lady at the races for the first time. "Miesque will win. No, wait, Warning looks so pretty in the warmups, now he's my pick. Can I change my mind?" So, of course, big chalk won and bad second chalk was a distant third, I think.
1988 Miesque was second choice in a coupled (2/1) bet with Blushing John and Warning, the favorite (1.9/1), finished 11th

1987 Miesque was 3.6/1 and Sonic Lady, the favorite at 2.9 was third