Beyer on New York Racing and Cheating [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

ezpace

10-27-2005, 10:10 PM

New York racing has had it's problems with drugs like all other racing venues.

I have been around all the major race tracks,read most of the articles on regional horse races , and know a lot of the players ((no big deal))

I think New York does the finest job of any state running horse racing.

I think Kentucky does the worst job of enforcement of racing regulations by far.

The KY breeders have to much clout and they need to make sure those STUD fees
stay elevated.

The results are you have young horses racing to young ,to many times, and with to many drugs because of KY BS the problem spreads to all ages of horses at allll racetracks. KY the absoulte worst.

ezpace

10-27-2005, 10:18 PM

Exactly B Horses you have the trainers right IMO.

Few also realize that much of the real real good "HOP" comes from

South America and some grooms of the many from South America have their own little game going.

Also, Have you ever seen a horse having its tongue tied in the paddock???

Much can be done to a horse then.

I think that in general most racing venues are coming to grips with the problem except KENTUCKY as said before.

Valuist

10-27-2005, 10:49 PM

No doubt its Tricky Dick and Terrible Todd.

Re: Singletary, I don't think I've ever heard anyone accuse Chatlos of anything. That race was also the only time he's run on soft turf, so he may prefer it that way.

DrugSalvastore

10-27-2005, 11:50 PM

No doubt its Tricky Dick and Terrible Todd.

I STRONGLY disagree about Pletcher....

I think it's Rick Dutrow Jr and Bruce Levine who Beyer is referring to. It's kind of silly that Beyer didn't name the two guys---it's an opinion of his, he shouldn't be afraid to say it and go about hiding it.

As for Pletcher, he didn't win the training title at the Belmont Spring meet!! In past years, he set records at that meet, and won that meet by absurdly large margins. I think bookies would have made him 1-to-9 to win that meet. Dutrow Jr's assistant (J. Rod) only finished one or two behind Pletcher, and he didn't start till several weeks into the meeting.

Pletcher isn't quite the same force he's been in years past, but he has such a deep and excellent stable, he's going to win a lot of races no matter what.

Levine has been lights out for the past few years---he's one of the guys who a lot of people thought would be most effected by the security barn. Everyone who knows Levine seems to say nice things about him--but if it wasn't for the existence of Dutrow Jr., I think Levine might be the NY trainer that a lot of the betting public targets regarding accusations of cheating.

kenwoodallpromos

10-28-2005, 12:13 AM

So does Beyer think those 2 are using snail venom or what? Or is he just having a good year at NY?!LOL!

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 12:33 AM

So does Beyer think those 2 are using snail venom or what? Or is he just having a good year at NY?!LOL!

Come on man!!!

Look, I think people overreact a little when they start to accuse a lot of trainers of cheating.....BUT...

It is painfully obvious that certain guys (Dutrow Jr., Mullins, Levine, Lake etc.) have suspiciously big edges over other trainers.

That doesn't mean they have those edges because they "cheat." The "magic bullet" that gives them the big edge could be legal products.

It seems like the gap between so called "juice" trainers and average trainers had been growing further apart every year. The NYRA detention barns, in my opinion, have narrowed that gap pretty well....but it probably hasn't narrowed it as markedly and dramaticlly as some of the most cynical bettors expected it to.

Durtow Jr. and Levine are still Superman and Batman---and a few of the average trainers still look very average. That's just the way it is.

PaceAdvantage

10-28-2005, 12:33 AM

pet peeve alert: isn't an elixir "magical" by definition? Thus "magical elixir" is redundant, is it not?

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Here's a serious question: Why does Pletcher's name come up when stories like this are released? What am I missing?

PaceAdvantage

10-28-2005, 12:34 AM

DrugS, I actually agree with your last post....go figure....

TurfRuler

10-28-2005, 12:56 AM

Never before in the history of NYRA (and the Pick6 there) have there been so many carry overs for so much money than in the past weeks at Belmont or Aqueduct or Saratoga or any of the other tracks in that part of the country including NJ. Thatswhatimtalkingabout.

BetHorses!

10-28-2005, 01:09 AM

First of all most trainers have used something lets say not kosher at one time or another. If you can't accept that then I do not know what to tell you.

Secondly, if you think Pletcher is clean, what happens to his horses when they turn 4 :D and I recall some deaths have we forgotten?

No way is Beyer referring to Levine

Tom

10-28-2005, 01:35 AM

What is this?

NYRA cracking down, cleaning up racing for the fans?

Damn! Take away their franchise....those loose cannons!

:rolleyes: :kiss:

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 02:08 AM

No way is Beyer referring to Levine

I wish I could bet money on this....

I thought it was crystal clear to everyone, that Pletcher hasn't been nearly as dominant since May, as he was over the two previous years.

Losing the Spring meet at Belmont had to be humiliating for Pletcher, he typically won that meet by Secretariat in the Belmont type margins. He also suffered through a very long losing streak at Saratoga--and he's only the leading trainer at the current BEL meet (fall championship meet) by one stinking win. It's not like he's setting the world on fire right now...and his stable is deeper than everyone elses.

Levine is like over 30% again I think....

It's too bad we don't have access to Beyer....I'd take you up on that bet.

PaceAdvantage

10-28-2005, 02:20 AM

Secondly, if you think Pletcher is clean, what happens to his horses when they turn 4 :D and I recall some deaths have we forgotten?

Why don't you tell me what happens to his horses when they turn 4. After all, I was the one asking for answers. Is this the Socratic method at play here? LOL

And I don't think I stated one way or the other my opinion of Pletcher's "cleanliness." I have no clue whether or not he is "clean," since I have never had him as my trainer, nor have I ever worked for the man. Have you? But, I guess if I had a gun to my head, I would have to say I have always thought of him as a relatively straight up kind of trainer....which is why I am asking these questions.

Plenty of trainers have horses die on them. I know of one very well known trainer (no, not Lukas) who had 3 or 4 horses die on him in ONE WEEK on the training track....you never heard of it cause it didn't make the news...does that make this trainer a "juicer?" BTW, this trainer is NOT regularly thought of when the discussion turns to cheaters, but knowing what I know, would you label the guy a juicer because he had a lot of horses die on him in a short period of time?

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 02:40 AM

And I don't think I stated one way or the other my opinion of Pletcher's "cleanliness." I have no clue whether or not he is "clean," since I have never had him as my trainer, nor have I ever worked for the man. Have you? But, I guess if I had a gun to my head, I would have to say I have always thought of him as a relatively straight up kind of trainer....which is why I am asking these questions.

We know that he employs Steve Allday as a vet....and he's had a bad test for the painkiller Mepivicaine....and he's publicly critized stewards for, in my opinion, an understandable call that went against him. He did have the three horses die, each after sparkling wins, at the '02 Saratoga meet. He also got, what looked to me like favorable treatment--when his bad test for Mepivicaine wasn't made public until 11 months after the fact...had the bad test been announced before Eclipse Award voting, he probably wouldn't have won that competitive vote last year.

So, it's not like Pletcher is some kind of saint. I've talked to him once in person...and he seems like a decent guy...but just because he's a clean cut friendly dude from Texas...doesn't make him a straight shooter.

I have a Bobby Frankel bias....and I guess a lot of the stuff I said about Pletcher is also true about Frankel.

I think someone like a Dick Mandella is as clean as they come. DWL is also someone who I view as pretty clean---even though I feel he is VERY overrated...and his style of training only works because horse owners tend to have ego's as big as DrugS.

10-28-2005, 05:28 AM

There is more to it than just the numbers. Check out Jerkens' record this meet! I don't think anyone is claiming he is drugging. Then again, the detention barn was supposed to help guys like Jerkens and Mott, and it seems to have done precisely that.

aaron

10-28-2005, 07:33 AM

Its my guess that Beyer is referring to Levine and Dutrow.He could also be thinking of Jimmy Jerkens,but he hasn't done as well at the current Belmont meet.Another canidate could be Frankel,since he has stopped winning in NY,he probably isn't a canidate anymore.
What trainers do you think the detention barn has affected most?
I'd vote for Lake,Frankel,and Mcklauglin,and possiably Robert Klesaris who until recently had not won in NY for months.

10-28-2005, 08:37 AM

Just to be clear, I was talking about Allen Jerkens.

BetHorses!

10-28-2005, 09:20 AM

[QUOTE=DrugSalvastore]I wish I could bet money on this....

QUOTE]

We can :) name the amount

I'll give u the all button and I'll take Pletcher. He's having a chat tonight maybe someone will press him. If he ever says it was Levine I'll send you a money order, just remember to report it on your income taxes :D ...if you win

the little guy

10-28-2005, 10:12 AM

If I bet money on this would you all declare it a fixed race?

Valuist

10-28-2005, 10:30 AM

To me, the biggest red flag is performance of horses after they leave a barn.
Nobody moves a horse up off Pletcher.....except maybe Dutrow.

Funny thing a week or so ago, there was a horse Catalano/Calabrese claimed off of Dutrow. :D Imagine that. Have to feel sorry for THAT horse. I think the horse has checked into rehab. He'd probably relish only getting milkshaked.

BetHorses!

10-28-2005, 12:21 PM

nor have I ever worked for the man. Have you?

No. But I did walk Hots for someone when I was 18.

But, I guess if I had a gun to my head, I would have to say I have always thought of him as a relatively straight up kind of trainer

Got to tell you I am very surprised that the guy who runs the best horse racing site thinks this. Maybe its not as obvious as I think it is.

BetHorses!

10-28-2005, 02:58 PM

off subject a bit, but you mention 2 trainers in NY beatiug system-care to elaborate
ANDY_BEYER: Obviously, I can't, since this is a very subjective opinion about who might be cheating, and it wouldn't be fair to accuse anybody of cheating without offering proof. But when I see trainers who repeatedly take over new horses and transform them dramatically, I view them as probable cheaters when I handicap.

opinions? Maybe i'm wrong :confused:

PaceAdvantage

10-28-2005, 03:31 PM

And what Beyer just said is exactly why I hate it when people come on here and throw up names without ANY proof....only a subjective opinion.

A lot of the times, I can't even let some of the posts stay up (I'm not even sure some of the posts in this thread should stay up), as you're dealing with trainer's LIVLIHOODS here....

10-28-2005, 03:35 PM

BetHorses!

10-28-2005, 03:53 PM

Well what about trainers who have been suspended and/or fined for illegal meds in the past. They are held responsible whether it was administered intentional or not. One can argue this is proof of cheating or attempting to cheat.

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 04:46 PM

To me, the biggest red flag is performance of horses after they leave a barn.
Nobody moves a horse up off Pletcher.....except maybe Dutrow.

I think Linda Rice got June The Tiger to score three straight wins after claiming him from Pletcher---two of them at pretty healthy odds.

I'm really shocked that some people think that Pletcher is doing as well this year as he did in the past two. I'm pretty sure his ROI has fallen off markedly as well.

10-28-2005, 05:10 PM

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 05:42 PM

Trainers don't care about ROI. Even if Pletcher's ROI has dropped, couldn't that be a product of his own success?

It is hard for me to think Pletcher is cheating, as he rarely if ever claims horses and gets very many new acquisitions. So, you don't get the big jump ups you see with some others. He just has some fast horses from the get go.

Just because a trainer doesn't claim horses, and doesn't get many new acquisitions---that doesn't necessarily mean a trainer won't "cheat."

The bad test for the painkiller Mepivicaine is the only reason anyone has any right to suggest that Pletcher might not have always been clean.

I realize three of his horses, within the time span of a week, ran amazing individual efforts at the '02 Saratoga meet--and than all three of them subsequently dropped dead right afterwards. In my opinion, that's not a good enough reason to start targeting a trainer...but it does look a bit suspicious.

I agree with you about Pletcher's ROI fallen off since May, not being a very big issue---but I think it's very fair to say that his results have been somewhat disappointing since May, based upon expectations anyone would have for him. I have a very hard time getting over the fact that he didn't win the Belmont Spring Meet. The previous years, he won that meet by some ABSURDLY large margins...breaking his own records in the process.

Bobby Frankel employs the same vet as Pletcher---and he's struggled in New York, in my opinion, far more than Pletcher has since May. Like Beyer said though, some guys have such deep powerful widespread stables, that they are going to win at a good clip no matter what.

Tom

10-28-2005, 05:43 PM

I discuss them in terms of handicapping, which affects my LIVLIEHOOD!

Here, here!
Cheaters cost US money - so screw thier livelihood.
We are merely discussing our opinions.
If that affect thems, too friggin bad.

We dis thepresident and elected officals in Off Topics - we dis horse people here. What's the diff?
No one is saying so and so cheated in the 9th at Bel today.....only that we believe the results were suspicious. The fact that we feel that way is the fault of Belmont and other tracks for ignoring the probels for so long. They fed our doubts with their inactions. Now they have to live with it. Who can deny the sudden impact on some trainers due to detetion barns?

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 06:08 PM

Through yesterday, here are the stats of a few trainers in question at the BEL Fall meet.

Bruce Levine- 14-for-43 (33% wins) $3.00 ROI
Rick Dutrow jr.- 18-for-70 (26% wins) $2.13 ROI
Allen Jerkens- 11-for-50 (22% wins) $2.05 ROI
Todd Pletcher 19-for-90 (21% wins) $1.54 ROI

As for how they are doing on the year....

Bruce Levine 100-for-350 (29% wins)
Rick Durtow 121-for-452 (27% wins)
Todd Pletcher 199-for-843 (24% wins)
Allen Jerkens 51-for-302 (17% wins)

Even though Levine is only winning at a clip 5% better than Pletcher, and 2% better than Dutrow jr.----it seems that Levine has been doing far better than those two guys over the course of the year. He just doesn't have as overpowering a stable I guess---but, than again, it's not like 29% on the year isn't super impressive.

delayjf

10-28-2005, 06:27 PM

I'm no authority on doping up a horse, but I've heard of things that can be administered the night before a race to help a horse run. I'd prefer to see a 24 hour detention barn.

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 06:35 PM

I'm no authority on doping up a horse, but I've heard of things that can be administered the night before a race to help a horse run. I'd prefer to see a 24 hour detention barn.

That can start to get expensive though---and someone has to pay for it.

I think it's fine the way it is now....basically, other than Dutrow Jr. and Levine, no one else has been doing anything suspiciously impressive...and those two guys have been at it for a while now....

It's clear they have a big edge over the other tainers---but who's to say that edge isn't from legal supplements or legal sports medicines?

aaron

10-28-2005, 08:24 PM

Levine- doesn't usually point to Saratoga.Throw out his Saratoga and he probably hasn't had any down period this year.As for Pletcher,even when he has an off meet his percentage stays around 24%.

Figman

10-28-2005, 09:02 PM

DrugSalvastore

10-28-2005, 09:42 PM

What do you mean Levine doesn't point for Saratoga??
His biggest owner Roddy Valente lives near Saratoga! He doesn't want his horses doing their best in front of his friends? All those claims Valente makes in California and sends to Levine are not just for Belmont especially when they can be taken out of California after the Hollywood meet and just before Saratoga begins.

Well, Aaron does speak some sence---up until recentley, Levine was notoriously dreadful at Saratoga.

Of course, Levine has done much better at Saratoga since 2003---he has no weakness anymore.

From 2000-to-2002 Bruce Levine was 4-for-82 at Saratoga. His average winner paid only $5. According to the publication Saratoga Handicapper 2003(by Jim Mazur) "Bruce Levine is 0-for-74 over the past six meets, when his horses are 5-to-1 or more."

aaron

10-28-2005, 10:18 PM

I probably stated myself incorrectly.Levine's record at Saratoga is not as good as it is downstate.I believe his record this year was off from his Belmont and Aqu. records.
If I remember correctly he had a few winners at the end of the meet that made his record respectable.If you check some of his best patterns at Saratoga,I believe you'll find his %'s are lower than they are at the downstate tracks.

Art P

10-30-2005, 05:52 PM

an overrated bore, Have some guts you coward and name who you think is the cheater. Stop slinging the innuendo, anyway who cares because if you follow the successful trainers you will cash in with them, There are plenty of trainers at small tracks doing this under the radar. If youre smart enough to know who they are you can make a good buck. Or you can play those ridiculous beyer figs and lose your shirt

Tom

10-30-2005, 06:51 PM

Sounds like Art doesn't know how to use speed figs! :D

JustRalph

10-30-2005, 07:39 PM

Sounds like Art doesn't know how to use speed figs! :D:lol::lol::lol:

Valuist

10-30-2005, 07:46 PM

I'll give you an example of a non-claiming trainer who was cheating and got caught: Noel Hickey. Hickey came from out of nowhere to start winning races at Arlington and Hawthorne at high rates in the late 80s. When he set the record (at the time) at Arlington in the early 90s, his win percentage was about 40% and his record on turf was approaching 50%. These were basically 90% Illinois breds, and the rest from his Irish Acres farm in Ocala. He ended up winning major races like the Flower Bowl and EP Taylor with Lady Shirl (the dam of Shakespear) and the BC Turf with Bucks Boy. But he did get caught. I believe the drug was Epigen. Now, denied stalls by Duchossois at Arlington, he struggles to win 10% at Prairie Meadows and Canterbury. I don't think you'll see him winning any more Breeders Cup races.

One more thing: drugs are nothing new. For some reason its gotten much more publicity in the past 5 years or so but it has been going on for as long as I've been following racing.

BIG49010

10-30-2005, 08:37 PM

I think you are incorrect, he was first on the block with albuteral? Which you can now train and also race in some states, but he was first to use it on all horses, and it gave him a big edge. The other drug you may be thinking of which I heard was the Jack Van Berg trick, who doesn't win any races anymore either, is methergene? Which was give to women giving birth to prevent bleeding, it was rummered to help with lasix horses.

Figman

10-30-2005, 09:12 PM

The Noel Hickey case:
http://utopia.utexas.edu/explore/equine/cases/racing/hickey.htm

BIG49010

10-30-2005, 09:33 PM

Albuterol is a bronchodilator which is prohibited by the Board and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for treating horses.

Good memory, poor in spelling!

westny

10-31-2005, 01:24 AM

Since the firing of Lakow,Holm the head vet, etc, and the implementation of the detention barns, (both events happening within days of each other )both Frankel and Pletcher raced more horses at Monmouth and Delaware all spring,summer. I know. I checked daily.

Pletcher had a combined average of 8-9 entries daily at DEl and MON. Frankel fewer, around 6/8 combined entries at the same tracks...both raced more elsewhere than in NY, including Saratoga. Did the firing of the popular Lakow by Hayward precipitate a trainer mini-exodus...alot more than in recent years to Monmouth, for example, or were the detention barns the impetus to race alot of horses out of NY?

Either way, Pletcher and Frankel both would have lower win % in NY than previous years because they raced alot less horses in NY.

I see that the winning averages of trainers like Hushion, Mott,Tagg, Schlosberg to name a few are up from previous years now that the barns are in place. These guys race fewer horses than Pletcher, Dutrow anyhow and don't usually have 20+% winners...and now they do.

No doubt, the NY stance on drugs is enforced and has "leveled the field", but what Beyer doesn't mention is that the "fields" at BelmontS/F meets have been dismal. A steady diet of 6f MSW/CL-NY bred 2 yr/3yr races with a very occasional nyalw race. Not enough horses for an open allowance..the few have been OPC/ALW with 5/6 horses. And this was before the rain eliminated turf racing for the last month.

I think it is great that NY is taking a stand on drugging horses, but I doubt Andy was betting any NY races on non stakes days.

Geekyguy

10-31-2005, 03:47 AM

Albuterol is a bronchodilator which is prohibited by the Board and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for treating horses.

Good memory, poor in spelling!

The equine version of the drug is Clembuterol.

Valuist

10-31-2005, 09:50 AM

Figman-

Good work digging that up.

I was wrong on the specific drug but my point was that just because a guy isn't a claiming trainer doesn't make him immune to drugging horses. All those horses mentioned in the link Figman posted were solid allowance and stakes horses.

the little guy

10-31-2005, 09:58 AM

Either way, Pletcher and Frankel both would have lower win % in NY than previous years because they raced alot less horses in NY.

I think it is great that NY is taking a stand on drugging horses, but I doubt Andy was betting any NY races on non stakes days.On the first quote.....that doesn't make mathematical sense. If anything, if you think they were being more select with their NY entrants, their percentages rate to be higher. But, regardless, mathematically the number of starters should not affect win percentages.

As for Beyer's betting habits, something I'm more qualified to discuss than you, you're completely wrong.

delayjf

10-31-2005, 10:24 AM

As for Beyer's betting habits, something I'm more qualified to discuss than you, you're completely wrong.

Speaking of crooked trainers and Andy Beyer, perhaps you can tell us more about the "Fat Man" and is Andy Sterling the "Kid" and what ever happened to "Charlie".

The other drug you may be thinking of which I heard was the Jack Van Berg trick, who doesn't win any races anymore either, is methergene?

I'm not aware of Van Berg ever being busted for drugs. Am I wrong?

the little guy

10-31-2005, 10:39 AM

I'm Andy SERLING ( no T, thank you ) and I am not " the kid " in his books. On the Fat Man, sorry as has been discussed here before, can't disclose anything about him.

As for " Charlie ", he was fine last time I saw him, which wasn't too long ago.

delayjf

10-31-2005, 10:43 AM

I noticed in the link to the Hickey case that Albuterol was administered the night before a race. Something the 6 hour detention barn would not prevent. I think its safe to assume that Albuterol in not the only substance with a lasting effect, maybe Dutrow and Levine know something everbody else doesn't. I'm not sure why a detention barn would be that much more to operate on a 24 hour basis.

Valuist

10-31-2005, 11:55 AM

Silly us for being skeptical.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/69906.html

Its all about deeper bedding :D

westny

10-31-2005, 01:34 PM

On the first quote.....that doesn't make mathematical sense. If anything, if you think they were being more select with their NY entrants, their percentages rate to be higher.

As for Beyer's betting habits, something I'm more qualified to discuss than you, you're completely wrong.

As for the forst quote, I do handicap and wager on NY every day. Except for major stakes, both both Pletcher and Frankel raced most of their horses out of NY. How could they not when 80% of NY field is NYBred? There were very few non NYbred races in NY this season. YOU have access to the numbers. go check how many horses Frankel, Pletcher raced at Monmouth, Delaware, then add in Mark Hennig, Kimmel, etc and a host of other trainers who usually
raced SOME horses elsewhere, but not all their non nybreds.

Ok blackthroat, then please ask Andy to pass along his with a strategy, aside from pedigree, to isolate a winner in a nybred, 2yr old msw field with 8 horses, 4 with one race, and 4 with none...becasue THAT is the standard card in NY this season.

ezpace

10-31-2005, 09:18 PM

my two trainers MR D and MR P... Both have been busted with it.. btw Mr.P was busted with an antiseptic that when properly used it does what it's supposed to when the DOSE is increased ...GREAT PERFORMANCE ENHANCER.. fwiw...

I loved it yesterday when one of my favorites ..the Grandfather of horseracing trainers now,,, HARVEY VANIER destroyed Pletchers chalk at Churchhill.. I doubt Harvey has ever had a serious infraction of the rules in decades...and granted he has a lot of help now...but the boys told me in Chicago last month he still picks most of the spoTS..(condition book)

ezpace

10-31-2005, 10:27 PM

use percentages or ROI to compare who is using hop and who isn't. They aren't dumb enough to use this on all horses . This stuff has to be very wisely used and only a few horses qualify.

Some of these guys ,especially MR P have been reprimanded before but because of WHO** they train for ..they more or less have THE GREEN LIGHT. Sickening

I know of a trainer in the midwest who had over 70 tests come back positive IN ONE HORSE MEET and nothing was done. call it THE ULTIMATE GREEN LIGHT . fwiw. .

ezpace

10-31-2005, 10:36 PM

to take a group of handicappers into the racing stewards office and tell them we demand a blood sample from a certain horse . We will pay to have it analyzed ourselves if you refuse the reaquest we will get a referendum passed so that it will become LEGAL .. talk about stirring it.

IF 20 guys called the stewards in KY ((Churchill Meet))and said we demand that the regulations(drugs) are enforced or we will request drug samples be done with the MEDIA on hand,,,, and sue the regulating body if drugs are found. it may get some results ;) ;) I'm not talking about LASIX AND BUTE or permissable other drug levels. just HOP...

Figman

10-31-2005, 10:43 PM

You want a urine sample as more drugs can be detected in the urine than from the blood. By the way, the first four finishers in NY have both blood and urine samples sent to Cornell University for testing. And the stewards can order a sample from any other horse they desire e.g. an odds on favorite that races poorly or a horse that doesn't finish.