Common Pool Wagering for Canadians into NYRA

[AngelEyes]

I hear that Canadians can now bet into NYRA pools. Advertisements state that we can bet the pick 6 on Saturday (Breeders Cup Day). The minimum bet is $3 Cdn per ticket.

Question: If a Canadian catches the pick 6 what would his payoff be ???

Customer Service at HPI tells me that we need to bet that much due to difference in US and Cdn currency but did not give me clear answer as to what we would get paid. Not sure if he really knew what he was talking about the subject in general. Can someone clarify how the concept of common pool wagering works when different currencies are involved and what our expected payout would be ??

Note that $2 US is equivalent to approx. $2.40 Cdn.

Thanks
Angel Eyes

[banacek]

Odds are odds. If a horse is 25-1 and the payoff is $52 U.S. on a $2 U.S. bet, you will get $52 Canadian on a $2 Canadian bet. If you bet 2 pesos you get 52 pesos.

[SmartArt]

My guess is that the $3 minimum has to do with the different takeout rates on the Pick 6 pool for Canadian wagers.

The takeout for Canadian bets is 25% on non carry over days.

Here's the DRF article:

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=69657&subs=0&arc=1

[AngelEyes]

Odds are odds. If a horse is 25-1 and the payoff is $52 U.S. on a $2 U.S. bet, you will get $52 Canadian on a $2 Canadian bet. If you bet 2 pesos you get 52 pesos.

That makes sense . If above is true then a pick6 that pays $10,000 US for a $2 US bet should mean that a Canadian would receive $15000 CDN since he had to bet $3 CDN to get it . Person I talked to at HPI Bet did not give me this impression.

[banacek]

Here's the FAQ link from HPI

http://www.hastingsracecourse.com/Welcome/US%20Pools%20FAQ.aspx

Note these:

Why do you not display the Canadian odds channel on U.S. common-pool tracks?
Since HEI plans to use the same takeout rates as U.S. tracks we can use the odds and probable-payoffs indicated on the host track's live video.

Can I participate in the guaranteed payoff wagers offered at US tracks?

Absolutely. If a track offers a guarantee on one of their pools that we offer, that guarantee also applies to Canadian customers.


Why are some of my payoffs higher than what is displayed on the video screens?
In the U.S., dollar prices are rounded to a dime whereas in Canada, those prices are rounded to a nickel. Canadian customers benefit from rounding to a nickel.

And then the good news if you do hit the Pick 6:

Am I required to pay U.S. tax withholding while wagering on a U.S. track?
No. Fortunately, the U.S. Internal Revenue Service's 30% withholding tax on winning wagers was repealed for Canadian citizens and therefore you will not be subject to such tax.

[AngelEyes]

Banacek,

Info you provide above is great. But still confused about the pick6 since US patrons bet $2 US and we have to bet $3 CDN per ticket. For example let's say there was $100,000 US in pool after takeout. And let's say that going into the final race there was 1 live ticket riding on the #1 horse. Let's also say that this ticket was held by a Canadian who had to bet $3 CDN to get it. What would the "Probable Will Pay" be for this horse ?? Do know what I'm getting at now ??
Being a negative person I have a feeling that a potential for being ripped off exists. IE. $2 US is substanially lower than $3 CDN.

AngelEyes

[SmartArt]

$2 US is substanially lower than $3 CDN.

As of today, $3 CDN = $2.55 USD.

Now, how does the takeout work??? We're told that instead of a %15 NYRA takeout, Canadian pools in the P6 are subject to a 25% takeout. Does that mean 10% goes to WO and NYRA gets their 15% as per usual? That would leave $2.29 USD going into the Belmont Pool.

It would be interesting to get a real breakdown of how it all works.

And, for what it's worth, I've never found anyone I've talked to in person at HPI to be very helpful with anything.

[Rook]

And, for what it's worth, I've never found anyone I've talked to in person at HPI to be very helpful with anything.

That's an understatement. Earlier this year, I pointed out that I hadn't been receving the proper number of reward points from them. The person on the phone passed the buck and told me somebody else would look into the matter.

Three months went by until I received a phone call from somebody from HPI apologizing that it took so long to fix the problem. What had happened was that a post it note was put on his desk and then a bunch of crap piled up on top of the message. During his semi-annual desk organizing, he came across the note and looked into the problem. What had been happening was that the Stampede Park races were not being credited to my account. It's likely this was happening to hundreds of other customers as well.

If the reward points were worth more than a free t-shirt or mug, I would have bitched a second time but long before the 3 months expired, I had moved on to far better betting alternatives.

[banacek]

Banacek,

Info you provide above is great. But still confused about the pick6 since US patrons bet $2 US and we have to bet $3 CDN per ticket. For example let's say there was $100,000 US in pool after takeout. And let's say that going into the final race there was 1 live ticket riding on the #1 horse. Let's also say that this ticket was held by a Canadian who had to bet $3 CDN to get it. What would the "Probable Will Pay" be for this horse ?? Do know what I'm getting at now ??
Being a negative person I have a feeling that a potential for being ripped off exists. IE. $2 US is substanially lower than $3 CDN.

AngelEyes

I think the $3 is because they don't want a Canadian betting $2 Canadian (say $1.67 U.S.) when a U.S. bettor has to bet $2 U.S. And they can't have us bet $2.50 Canadian so they call it $3. The HPI site says the minimum bet is up to the host racetrack.

Otherwise I don't think the exchange rate comes into it. And I didn't see anything in the HPI site saying they'd have a different take for the Pick 6, maybe they will but it says:

Since HEI plans to use the same takeout rates as U.S. tracks we can use the odds and probable-payoffs indicated on the host track's live video.


Now if there is $100000 U.S. after the take, then the payoff would be $100000 U.S. . If that is say $120000 in Canadian funds,then the one dollar Canadian pay would be $40000 Canadian for each $1 on the ticket.(or a $1 probable payoff of $33,333 U.S.). So you would have still had the whole pool even if you only bet $2, true, but them is the breaks I guess. Nice problem to have, but I don't see how they do anything different.

[Rook]

If Woodbine management had any brains they would offer the customer the choice of setting up an American dollar account or doing an automatic currency conversion on a Canadian dollar account. Therefore, those who bet online or with an HPI card could bet $2.40 instead of $3. They could keep their $3 rule for the few remaining people who bet cash with the tellers.

If they did this, everything would be crystal clear and discussions like this would not take place. However, knowing how management at Woodbine works, neither of these options has entered their minds, or if they have, they've been dismissed as too difficult to implement, just like their inability to allow customers to bet hours in advance, watch video from U.S tracks or look at an account history.

[banacek]

If Woodbine management had any brains they would offer the customer the choice of setting up an American dollar account or doing an automatic currency conversion on a Canadian dollar account. Therefore, those who bet online or with an HPI card could bet $2.40 instead of $3. They could keep their $3 rule for the few remaining people who bet cash with the tellers.
.

I agree that HPI has A LONG WAY TO GO on many things. (Why do I have to keep signing in over and over- why does the tote board konk out all the time, and I could keep going ) But in fairness on this one, many of these things are restricted by governments and host track. And although a U.S. $ account could help in this, it would just be one more thing for HPI to screw up. Also I wouldn't use a U.S. $ account. I bet more than $2 U.S or Canadian so I don't care about it. (Also if I had a U.S. $ account the last couple of years with any significant balance, it would have hurt with the Canadian dollar rising from 62 cents to 85 cents U.S.)

[AngelEyes]

So then I can conclude that a surcharge of approx. (3 - 2.50)/3 * 100 = %16.67 exists when it comes to pick6 betting.

Does anyone know of any site/rebate shop or whatever where a Canadian can bet the pick6 at NYRA tracks without getting ripped off ???

[sjk]

I don't think it's a surcharge unless you have the only winning ticket. If you win you have bet more and should have more coming back to you than the other winners.

You will cover fewer combinations for the same money which is less than ideal but if you win you get a bigger than usual piece.

I play Woodbine all the time. I bet in $US and get paid in $US. Never need to think about currencies at all.

[Rook]

I agree that HPI has A LONG WAY TO GO on many things. (Why do I have to keep signing in over and over- why does the tote board konk out all the time, and I could keep going )

Yes, the constant logging in is extremely irritating and it isn't just the tote board that's buggy. The screen often needs to be refreshed after placing a bet.

"But in fairness on this one, many of these things are restricted by governments and host track. "

I doubt any of the things I mentioned are restricted. It's just plain incompetence and contempt for their customers.

"Also I wouldn't use a U.S. $ account. I bet more than $2 U.S or Canadian so I don't care about it."

That's why it should be an option instead of mandatory. There are people like myself who have far more U.S dollars than loonies. Also Woodbine should join the 99.99% of Canadian businesses who are willing to accept American customers.

The $3 minimum is a very big deal if you are betting for example 400 combinations in pick 6 ticket. I'd much rather take a stab at sweeping a pool with a $960 ticket rather than $1200.

[Rook]

I don't think it's a surcharge unless you have the only winning ticket.

If you were a superfecta player like I am, that would be a very big concern. Those glorious events are my bread and butter.

[AngelEyes]

You will cover fewer combinations for the same money which is less than ideal but if you win you get a bigger than usual piece.



How do I get a bigger piece. I had to bet roughly 17% more than a US person to get the same amount ?????

Also, with regards to an alternative to access the US pick6 pools I found a site called Link2bet (formerly EURO ??? I think). They currently offer quite a few US tracks and are in the works to include NYRA tracks in November. They also give you a 5% rebate for starters. Anyone else know about them ???

[sjk]

I'm know very little about this but am answering based on common sense. If you bet $3 Canadian on the winning combination and in the US the payoff is $100000 for $2, your ticket should pay off $150000 Canadian.

[Rook]

I'm know very little about this but am answering based on common sense. If you bet $3 Canadian on the winning combination and in the US the payoff is $100000 for $2, your ticket should pay off $150000 Canadian.

This would not be the case. If there is a $100,000 U.S. pool after takeout, that is all the track is going to pay out. If the only winner is a $3 Canadian ticket, there would be three $1 winners and the payoff would be listed as $67,000 for a $2 bet.

That is why the current policy is a gyp.

[sjk]

Rook,

I undestood the question to be about the Breeder's Cup. Your point is well taken if there is a realistic chance of sweeping the pool. Hope you continue to do so regularly.

[banacek]

That is why the current policy is a gyp.

If there is $100,000 U.S. in the pool after the take, the sole winner would get $100,000 US. I don't see the problem.

[sjk]

If you have to bet more than the American player to cover the same combinations but win an equal amount you are accepting lower odds which will catch up with you in the long run.

[Rook]

Rook,

I undestood the question to be about the Breeder's Cup. Your point is well taken if there is a realistic chance of sweeping the pool. Hope you continue to do so regularly.

Thanks SJK, I sure hope so too. There have been several months when a sweep of the pool has meant the difference between a winning and a losing month. My first month betting full time has gone very nicely. I have hit 4 $10k supers in the past 2 weeks.

I love the mild seasons of fall and spring. How many other PA members do better during these months compared to the extreme temperature conditions?

[trying2win]

Also, with regards to an alternative to access the US pick6 pools I found a site called Link2bet (formerly EURO ??? I think). They currently offer quite a few US tracks and are in the works to include NYRA tracks in November. They also give you a 5% rebate for starters. Anyone else know about them ???

--I just sent LINK 2 BET an email, asking if they accept Canadian accounts.
Will soon find out. Didn't see anything about a 5% rebate on their website.


T2W

[AngelEyes]

--I just sent LINK 2 BET an email, asking if they accept Canadian accounts.
Will soon find out. Didn't see anything about a 5% rebate on their website.


T2W

Got this info from them over the phone. They accept Canadian accounts. Rebates start off at 5% and can go up to 10% depending on your betting profile. According to amounts I bet I don't think I'll get more than the 5% but got the feeling talking to them that rebates may be negotiable. They also told me to contact them after I open an account to trigger the rebates which would be paid weekly on Mondays. They are going to send me an e-mail informing me when the NYRA tracks will be available .... they figure November. Till then using BETFAIR for win bets on US tracks they offer. Pinnacle for other bet types due to 4-7% rebate. Want to use Link2bet to access pick6 pools and perhaps NYRA gimmick pools if I get 5% instead of the 4% Pinnacle now offers.

[trying2win]

AE,

Thanks for the info. I contacted LINK 2 BET as well. They didn't mention what tracks give rebates. They mentioned that not all host tracks give rebates though. Do you have a list of what tracks give rebates and how much? It appears the bets go into the host track pools, so that's a good thing for horsemen and other track employees. Is your money pretty secure with LINK 2 BET?


Thanks,

T2W

[AngelEyes]

AE,

Thanks for the info. I contacted LINK 2 BET as well. They didn't mention what tracks give rebates. They mentioned that not all host tracks give rebates though. Do you have a list of what tracks give rebates and how much? It appears the bets go into the host track pools, so that's a good thing for horsemen and other track employees. Is your money pretty secure with LINK 2 BET?


Thanks,

T2W

Not exactly sure of all details yet. Just talked to them once. If I don't get rebates for tracks I usually bet I will just stick with Pinnacle for exotic bets.
Like to find a reliable site where I can bet a pick6 once in a while and receive a rebate. Note that the parent co. of Link2bet is listed on UK stock exchange if that means anything.