Equibase vs Handicappers

[linrom1]

What exactly is the purpose of Equibase? Whom does this company represent? Does it serve the needs of the racing industry by maintaining horseracing database for public dissemination, or does it exit to impede handicappers from betting on races?

Needless to say, I am quite livid that Equibase with very little warning has decided to unilaterally change the format of racing result charts from html to pdf in what supposed to be an effort to prevent offshore betting outfits from unlicensed use of its data. In truth, this whole move was precipitated because a few handicappers established their own databases using parsed free results charts. Just why such use is deemed unacceptable and a threat to Equibase monopoly is unclear; but it is a significant change in what information and how that information is available to handicappers. Results charts in html can be parsed and saved into a database, result charts in pdf can’t.

In my opinion, needlessly restrictive availability of racing information does not serve the long tem interests of the racing industry. Without useful and readily available data, many handicappers will not bet.

[cnollfan]

I know little about the computer and the Internet besides where the gas pedal is, but I believe that brisnet.com is still publishing free html charts.

[Zaf]

Par for the course. Limit the access to video feeds, charts , info etc. No wonder this industry is losing their customers to Casinos , Lotteries , Poker tourneys , etc. :bang:

ZAFONIC

[toetoe]

Well put. It's us against Equibase. Has anyone else noticed that the finer the technology gets, the more greedy and draconian the 'haves' become? At this rate, we'll soon be paying the equivalent of $3 gallons of fuel to play on our computers. I guess without the bloated TV revenue that other sports get, Equibase, et al. think they can survive by denying us crumbs, but I'm not paying for charts. Christ, the $4-plus print DRF is looking better and better. Okay, end of rant, stricken nerve improving.

[highnote]

The Connecticut Attorney General does not allow CT residents to bet online. So I haven't bet in almost a month.

I don't have to worry about data anymore because it isn't available. What a pain in the ass it was to have to keep up with getting daily data.

My life is actually better now. I can devote more time to family and work. Maybe the AG is right. Gambling is bad.

Without anyone betting on races, racing can return to the way it was originally set up to be -- the sport of kings. The people who want to participate can do it for sport -- maybe win a silver cup or something rather than purse money.

Granted, there will be fewer tracks and fewer horses in this industry when tracks starting closing due to lack of betting revenue. There will also be fewer people employed -- like --
data sellers and
data providers and
grooms and
hotwalkers and
trainers and
racecallers and
chart callers and
journalists and
editors and
secretaries and
managers and
accountants and
lawyers and
EMTs and
security guards and
tellers and
janitors and
valets and
jockeys and
waiters and
bartenders and
food vendors, etc., but what the heck. They can all go out and collect unemployment for awhile and then retrain for new careers if they can't find a job elsewhere.

Maybe this is all the beginning of a good thing.

[Figman]

What's wrong with betting on your touchtone telephone with Autotote Enterprises OF CONNECTICUT? THey have an "800" number and you don't even have to deal with an operator.

[highnote]

What's wrong with betting on your touchtone telephone with Autotote Enterprises OF CONNECTICUT? THey have an "800" number and you don't even have to deal with an operator.


Why will I not bet with CT Autotote? Let me count the ways...

The idea that internet betting is different than touch tone betting is the depth and breadth and height of idiocy that politicians have devised.

Punching bets into a touch tone with the too often made mistakes of punching wrong numbers and then having to re-enter the bet through their awkward menu system does not meet my quite need.

I love to bet freely and rapidly and often as I strive to bet the correct horse. Because touch tone betting is way more time consuming than calling in the bet I can not bet freely and purely.

I used to make many bets with passion. It is frustrating always having to redial the number everytime you want to make a bet and then have to wait for an operator pick up or else be put on hold. By sun and candlelight I have been shut out too many times.

CT Autotote are a state sanctioned monopoly -- one of my old griefs.

In my childhood faith, I do not do business with monopolies. (Which is why I do not buy anything from Equibase.)

From a moral point of view, I do not see the difference between betting with a touch tone phone and betting with a computer keyboard via the internet. So I will not do business with CT Autotote on those grounds alone.

I enjoy betting with the breath, smiles and tears of all my life. And, if God choose, I shall bet better after death.

So I would like to sum up this ridiculous reply of mine with a good quote from Nelson Rose -- "It is time that the gambling industry is treated like a respectable business and not something evil that needs to be surrounded by holy water."

Amen.

PS
This message is a tribute to Kreed -- Mr. more gumbo than Prada.

My apologies to Elizabeth Barrett Browning.

[toetoe]

I daresay he REEKS of okra.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I agree with Equibase on this one. If businesses are taking advantage of their info they invested money to gather, to make a profit, they should pay Equibase.
The info is still free to look at. But Equibase could still allow paid access to html version but businesses would still steal it.

[DJofSD]

But Equibase could still allow paid access to html version but businesses would still steal it.

And in the process most likely violate at least one if not more conditions of use.

DJofSD

[Tom]

And supermarkkets could sell thier weekly fliers, too.

Equibase reminds me of a hooker in a "come-get-me" dress - look for free, but no touchy! :eek:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Conditions of use are put there for a purpose.
Some people think unless you are selling a solid object you should always give away everything you have, even if you spent time and/or money creating it. Some would pay for the information on paper but think they should get it free online. And in business there are those that would pirate 'capping info, CD's. DVD's, inventions, and copy anything original to make a profit on someone else's idea and work.
Equibase puts free information out to entice people to pay for more, like almost everybody does.
That is why businesses allow use of information to TV Guide, Reader's Digest, movie houses and talk shows. and why handicapping websites like Equibase or CJ's give a little free information. That is also why PaceAdvantage aloows limited pasting and puts out articles by Joe Takach.
So just be thankful you have access to what limited use information they give out and use it properly so they will keep doing it. I am.

[DJofSD]

I believe we are in agreement.

Copyright and intellectual property rights should be respected. And I also believe in the concept of "value added" such as CJ''s figures.

At the moment there's a good deal of easy access to data. By that I mean its out in the open and not behind a sign on or log in -- its just out there without any encumberances. I think that was a mistake from the beginning. It should at least be put behind a user sign on. It could still be free with the requirement you sign up to a usage agreement.

Here's an idea that I would promote if I was on the inside at Equibase and/or BRIS, etc.: have some kind of scale for pricing of results charts. If you don't buy any other product within some dollar amount or time frame, they cost something. If, on the other hand, you do purchase other products, i.e. download PPs, then you get access to all the results charts you want for free.

DJofSD

[sjk]

How about betting races and generating take-out dollars that make the price of PPs look like pocket change. Doesn't that count as purchasing a product given the purported mission of Equibase.

[kitts]

DJofSD has a pay for data plan that makes sense to me.

This thread will no doubt wind its way into "why can't we get free stuff" land

[DJofSD]

How about betting races and generating take-out dollars that make the price of PPs look like pocket change. Doesn't that count as purchasing a product given the purported mission of Equibase.

In a word, no.

As I read the Equibase "about" information, they're servicing the race track industry, not the fan base. The value added retailers and others are what is providing a service to the handicapping public, the comsumers of the data.

They employ the chart callers, they provide the means and access to their computer systems and data base, in short, I think they "own" the data.

Just because we generate revenues from our wagers via the "take out" does not mean any of those dollars go to compensate Equibase. And even if there is some small part of my winning wager going to Equibase, I don't think it entitles any one to violate a usage contract.

Do I like potentially losing what has been free and easy access to information I find valuable? No.

Do I think I'm entitled to something from Equibase or the industry as a whole? No.

Will I change the way I play the races and possibly even quit if I find the onus to maintain my current handicapping posture not "worth" it? Damn right I will.

DJofSD

[BillW]

Most industries realize the error in judgement is it to offer the customer something for free and then take it away. Successful businesses attempt to be perceived doing the opposite. But Equibase has the reputation of the horse racing industry to uphold. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

What good is the data is people stop playing the races?

No one will ever convince me that this industry is not trying to kill itself, what with all the stupid, mind-numbing restrictions they put on it.
It's not a case of free or not - I have said I would gladly pay for it, but they won't offer it.

i also thinnk the idea of EB protection their third party customers is BS, too. EB offers their own PPs and speed figures and products that complete with them.
EB is full of crap. They have the right to do what they did, we have the right to call them poo poo heads for doing it.
But if someone is out there stealing data and really hurting EB business, does anyone really give a hoot? Not me - they lose, they lose. Sucs to be robbed! :lol:

[highnote]

i also thinnk the idea of EB protection their third party customers is BS, too. EB offers their own PPs and speed figures and products that complete with them.


Tom, you are absolutely correct.

This fact tells you what kind of logic we're dealing with as far as the industry goes.

[Jeff P]

"It is time that the gambling industry is treated like a respectable business and not something evil that needs to be surrounded by holy water."

Amen to that.

From an intellectual property point of view I can understand (but disagree with) Equibase's decision to switch over to PDF charts. What needs to happen at some level is a decision by somebody (anybody) somewhere in the industry to make it easier not harder for new players to enter the game. Maybe Equibase/BRIS/TSN/HDW or any data provider should pick a weekend just to get the ball rolling and the promotion is ALL data products FREE this weekend. I think it's insane that the would be data informed player has to jump through an ever growing number of hoops just to get a bet down. Restrictions on data availability, rerstrictions on account betting, restrictions on video feed, the cost of a day at the races if you (shudder) actually decide to go to the track taken collectively all amount to one thing: The would be new racing fan, who doesn't want to jump through hoops to play the game, ends up (instead of studying past perfermances) feeding quarters into a slot machine at a new casino somewhere. Meanwhile, the fan base slowly erodes away.

Ok. Those are some of my thoughts. Rant ended.

-jp

.

[saratoga guy]

Everyone upset by this decision should be motivated to let their feelings be known to Equibase. I follow the industry pretty closely but I don't maintain the kind of database people seem to be talking about so I had no idea HTML results were so integral to some players. Perhaps the powers-that-be don't realize that either. So let Equibase -- and even NTRA know about it. Not here -- but in emails and letters to the people that count.

In the meantime, I find it interesting that everyone seems to have ignored the most pertinent post earlier in this thread -- HMTL results are still available elsewhere.

[sjk]

To recap some of the points above:

1). The hmtl charts that are available do not have the same information
2). Changing data sources involves work, risk and potentially expense
3). I spoke to a guy at Equibase; they knew exactly what they were doing
4). They don't care at all if the racetracks lose customers over this which is what is likely to happen
5). Anyone who maintains a database has to keep up with it on a daily basis and is continually involved with racing. Once that continuity is broken that person is likely to bet much less frequently if at all.

I have bet about 40,000 races over the last 10 years and it is safe to say that if things do not seem to be working out with the conversion to a new data source I will probably never again bet more than a handful of races a year.

[saratoga guy]

To recap some of the points above:

1). The hmtl charts that are available do not have the same information
2). Changing data sources involves work, risk and potentially expense
3). I spoke to a guy at Equibase; they knew exactly what they were doing


1) As I said, I don't keep such a database so I don't know exactly what you're focused on -- but my quick look at both the HTML results currently available as mentioned above, and some HTML results I had saved from Equibase, they appear to offer the same info.

2) Not to be snide but, beggars can't be choosers. If one free source disappears -- but another is available, yeah, there might be some work involved, but the info is still available.

3) As I said in my previous post -- it's probably also worth contacting NTRA or the track(s) you normally wager at. If the people that are upset with Equibase aren't paying customers, well then really, why should Equibase care? It would be nice if they did, and if they had a broad perspective on the issue that took bettors into account -- but ultimately they have to look out for their business and paying customers.

On the other hand, if enough players are upset by this move and convey that effectively to the racetracks -- then you are getting an entity involved that is affected by potentially losing paying customers.

[DJofSD]

I had no idea HTML results were so integral

The results (in whatever non-PDF format) are important to me because I refuse to pay for PPs to only then discover I have horses in today that have never run over a U. S. surface and therefore have no usable pace information.

I find some value in reading the entire set of comments not just an abbreviated version for one horse.

I'm sure those that pay more attention to class than I do, want to review the entire conditions of a race in the PPs and not just a code that only partially reveals the conditions.

DJofSD

[kenwoodallpromos]

" In truth, this whole move was precipitated because a few handicappers established their own databases using parsed free results charts."
1) Non-parsing handicappers are back to a level playing field with those who parse.
2) It has been well known that off-shore outfits have a few big clients who use computers to get an advantage even over those who parse for strictly inividual use.
3) According to anectdotal posts on this forum, some of those who maintain large databases for inividual purposes do not profit.
4) I think most every membewr of this forum will agree that the racing industry caters to size and worth and puts bettors down the list of concerns.
5) As long as the tracks and organizations share ideas and data as both groups and individual businesses and bettors do not, bettore will be at a disadvantage when arguing lower takeouts, lower breakage, and special deals intstead of industry sectors giving goodies to breeders, owners, and controlled sister businesses like DRF/Equibase/Jockey Club/NTRA/AQHA.
This may be off-topic, but as long as bettors have no pool strength the industry will continue to play games like they do in Texas where QTR horses are individually times to the hundredth second and in the very next race for Tbreds only the winner is timed and to heck with correct data.
Maybe someone should start a business with modern stopwatches and publish exact finishing times for TBreds?

[Tom]

Saratoga Guy,

The customer service guy at EB must have trained at DRF because the one time I tried to communicate wtih them, I got a very rude POS reply.
As far as I am concerned, EB is a bunch of screwballs not worth bothering with.

[saratoga guy]

Saratoga Guy,

The customer service guy at EB must have trained at DRF because the one time I tried to communicate wtih them, I got a very rude POS reply.
As far as I am concerned, EB is a bunch of screwballs not worth bothering with.

Again though -- while it would be great if Equibase was sympathetic to this issue, ultimately you and the other users of free info aren't customers (although from your post it sounds like you haven't communicated with Equibase on this issue, but rather something in the past -- I would certainly let them know how you feel regardless of what you anticipate their response to be).

So once that avenue shuts down, it's probably more effective for players who want that information to either approach Equibase about offering a fee-based HTML product -- in which case they might be more open to listening as you would become a potential customer, or, approach the tracks. Find out what Equibase feels they're losing with the "poaching" of their free info and propose to the tracks that they somehow make up that shortfall if it can be proposed that the handle from HTML users would be enough to support this.

[linrom1]

It's not a simple task to change data sources. For one, I use country codes with horse names. Does Bris? This simple example illustrates just how difficult it might be to intergate new data with your old.

Also, there is presently no BRIS parser that one can use off the shelf. In due time, someone will write one, but, much time will be lost. The best solution is to bet less.

[highnote]

ultimately you and the other users of free info aren't customers

This is incorrect. We are customers of Equibase. Equibase was formed to handle the data needs of racetracks. Racetracks own Equibase. When we patronize the tracks, we are patronizing Equibase. Equibase exists because racetracks need customers to bet. Customers bet more money when they have more information.

[cj]

So let Equibase -- and even NTRA know about it. Not here -- but in emails and letters to the people that count.


They already know, that is why they took them away, despite the attempt to blame it on "off shore" books.

[Valuist]

And supermarkkets could sell thier weekly fliers, too.

Equibase reminds me of a hooker in a "come-get-me" dress - look for free, but no touchy! :eek:

:lol:

[saratoga guy]

They already know, that is why they took them away, despite the attempt to blame it on "off shore" books.

I really don't think that's the case. If they were sitting in their board room saying, "Gee, a lot of 'databasers' are using our stuff for free," the next most likely response would have been, "How do we get them to pay for it?," not, "Let's make it difficult to use."

Someone earlier in the thread said they'd be willing to pay, but it's not even available in HTML for that. So it's logical to think that if Equibase "knew" players were creating databases using the HTML information, and Equibase was upset about that -- they would have created a fee-based HTML product.

Figuring "they already knew" and thus not complaining means players can expect no results. People have to be more vocal in these situations. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes. But often you'll hear something like, "I can't believe they stopped carrying such-and-such at my supermarket!" And when you ask if they said something to the manager or wrote a letter to the head of the chain they say 'no', assuming it wouldn't do any good.

Complaining might not bring about a change -- but not complaining will definitely result in no change.

[sjk]

You are speculating as to what they did or did not know. Some of us have talked to them about this and are quite sure that they knew what they were doing.

[saratoga guy]

This is incorrect. We are customers of Equibase. Equibase was formed to handle the data needs of racetracks. Racetracks own Equibase. When we patronize the tracks, we are patronizing Equibase. Equibase exists because racetracks need customers to bet. Customers bet more money when they have more information.

Certainly we can get into a semantic debate here about how to define "customer". As I said earlier, I agree it would be nice if Equibase took the broad view you state -- and ultimately players are their "customers", I just don't think that's the case.

If I complain to Chrysler headquarters that there's a problem with their cars and I get no results, I can say I'm going to stop buying Chrysler cars. Thus affecting both my local dealer, who is actually selling me the product, and the corporation.

If I complain to Equibase and I get no results, well, the posters in this thread say they'll stop betting. How does that affect Equibase directly?

On the other hand, it will affect the tracks. So as I mentioned earlier, if Equibase offers no satisfaction, contacting the tracks themselves might help -- if enough players do it.

[saratoga guy]

You are speculating as to what they did or did not know. Some of us have talked to them about this and are quite sure that they knew what they were doing.

Well, maybe you're right, the crux of my original posts weren't about what they knew or didn't know -- I was simply commenting that the HTML results are still available and it might offer up some results if everyone that was upset about this let it be known, not just to Equibase, but to the entities that will be losing the dollars, the tracks.

However, there have now been a couple of posts that have implied Equibase "knew" something -- but the posts haven't been specific about exactly what they "knew". So now I'm curious, just what are you implying they "knew"?

Again, if the implication is they knew players were using the free information to build databases: 1) Why would they care? and 2) After finding out there was such a use and demand for the free product -- why would they take it away altogether and not offer it as a fee-based product?

[sjk]

I asked friend of mine who is well known and well respected in the industry if he knew anyone at Equibase who I could talk to about using the data from the charts for personal use. He spoke to Chuck Scaravilli who he has know for years who did not see that there would be a problem as long as I did not make the information available to others. Since he was not fully up to speed on such issues he offered to have someone call me who was.

I got a call from David O'Neill (I did not write down the name of the individual who called; I believe that is who it was) and explained my concern. He told me that individuals using the chart information in a database form was exactly the sort of behavior that they were trying to stop and that they were a part on an industry effort to do so.

I told him that paying for the service would not be a problem. He directed me to a service for pay that upon further investigation not only has a different format but is missing important information that was available in the charts.

I was continuing to explain my point of view when we were suddenly disconnected.

I have always used US based companies for account wagering thinking that it would be a greater benefit to the American racing industry to do so even though I could benefit from rebates were I to go to an off-shore company.
Given the way this was handled I may do differently in the future.

[saratoga guy]

If what you say -- or more specifically, what you were told and how you conveyed it -- is true, that explains a lot.

If Equibase is selling this information to an entity that is reselling it for use by 'databasers' then I can understand how the reseller(s) would be upset that Equibase was giving it away.

If the reseller is presenting the information in a way that isn't not optimum then 'databasers' should make that known.

(Again however, I looked at the free HTML results that were mentioned earlier in the thread and I don't see any difference between the info they offer and the info previous offered by Equibase HTML charts)

[toetoe]

Imagine having to pay to find out how often Vladimir Guerrero swings at the first pitch, or how many hookers Daunte Culpepper likes to have the night before a game. How is racing different from these sports, other than the inferior TV presence? Not different at all. Equibase and other sites have ads. They're the name of the game. But to restrict access is just spiteful. I don't believe their profit, considering their monopoly, was declining. They go to great lengths to curtail the services of folks like cj, Trackhorses, etc., but they symbolize the tendency of internet "services:" start out free, build up a base, then throw your weight around and, oh yeah, start charging more for less. How perfect must the technology become for things to become "free" ... that is, with only popups and other ads? I maintain that it will never reach that point. So the internet, far from being a tool of liberation and boundless possibilities, is just another way to market stuff, a new pool with lots of fish. GBA.

[GameTheory]

A few things:

-- Forget this talk about the "other" HTML charts. It is clear that part of the "industry-wide effort" is going to be the elimination of those also, unless they just decide to restrict them to subscription access (username/password, even if they are still free). (Which makes much more sense anyway.)

-- HTML charts are "pdf-lite" format. You're not supposed to be able to do anything with HTML charts other than look at them and print them out, just like pdf. They happen to be easier to deal with as far as parsing, but they certainly aren't designed with that in mind.

-- If they would just sell complete charts in comma-delimited format for $25/mo instead of $150/mo (Trackmaster price, an Equibase company) or even $75/mo (PostTimeDaily.com price, although I can't actually find this deal on their website, I've been told it exists), there wouldn't be much complaint I don't think.

-- The attitude from the industry is that cutting off this source will not affect the bottom line in any significant way (because of reduced wagering) because if they are only cutting off people that are too cheap to buy the data in the first-place, then those people can't possibly be wagering very much. Plus they get to annoy those evil off-shores in the process. (They also believe that any loss in revenue from data sales through lower prices for said data will not be recouped in increased wagering.) There are about 20 very good (& obvious) reasons why their arguments are just plain stupid, but since I've heard the same things from several industry sources now, I think that is what they actually believe.

[Tom Barrister]

Bad part is that this won't stop the offshores. They'll hire a programmer to write software to convert the PDF charts like they were doing with the HTML ones. There's software that extracts text from PDF files. Serious players will buy the charts if they have to.

Meanwhile, back in Recreational Player Land, if the rest of us want to see a chart at Equibase, we have to wait a minute or two while Adobe loads its 14,000 plugins into the browser. Yes I know there are programs that will disable most of the plugins and speed Acrobat up. But the average Joe doesn't know about that.

Equibase is just falling into step with the mission of the rest of the racing industry, that mission being to annoy and upset as many customers as they can, while discouraging potential customers in the process. You'd think they were running an exterminator company instead of a service industry.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Please tell me where I can get free first swing information? Thanks!
I do not believe any other sport combines the betting outlets with the information vendors; and no other uses para-mutuel betting.
If you want race betting nationwide at every track and OTB's you should expect the Govt and the racing to have tight control of everything, including the information.
Other sports also do not constantly change their rules and competition entry criteria due to betting trends; the other sports would not notice any difference if there was no betting. Racing in the 20th century closed up shop in many areas due to lack of betting, and the only reason it came back at all is because the states saw dollar signs.
The only time the industry would have to worry about bettors going away is due to too small of fields or payouts.

[cj]

... the other sports would not notice any difference if there was no betting...

Dude, you can't be that naive!

[Valuist]

Ken-

Maybe not all sports but some DEFINITELY have changed or made up rules to accomodate the wagering world. There is a reason NFL teams are made to comply and submit accurate injury reports. A year or so ago, Denver was fined to submitting bogus injury reports. Right now, there's talk that Atlanta will be penalized for inaccurate information re: Michael Vick and the injury that kept him out of the Patriots game. Sure, Tags and the league brass will try to publicly distance themselves from Las Vegas. But off the record, I guarantee you they know what keeps their bread buttered.

[saratoga guy]

We're getting off-topic -- unless someone can point out similar database-type uses people are finding for free HTML information with 'mainstream' sports (football, baseball, basketball).

Imagine having to pay to find out how often Vladimir Guerrero swings at the first pitch, or how many hookers Daunte Culpepper likes to have the night before a game. How is racing different from these sports, other than the inferior TV presence? Not different at all. Equibase and other sites have ads. They're the name of the game. But to restrict access is just spiteful.

The info is still available -- just not in the format 'databasers' prefer.

[chickenhead]

We're getting off-topic -- unless someone can point out similar database-type uses people are finding for free HTML information with 'mainstream' sports (football, baseball, basketball).



The info is still available -- just not in the format 'databasers' prefer.

Are we forgetting the Equibase terms of use here?

(c) You understand and agree that information acquired hereunder is provided for use in an online or hardcopy print environment. You agree that you will not download information acquired hereunder with the intent to database it for future use. EQUIBASE, at its sole discretion, will determine if user activity patterns indicate that information is being used for purposes other than handicapping in an online or hardcopy print environment. If EQUIBASE determines that information is being used for purposes other than handicapping in an online or hardcopy print environment, EQUIBASE shall immediately terminate any subscriptions, deactivate any accounts and no refunds will be issued.

Go find me some other sports results page with a similiar disclaimer. It has nothing to do with "it's still available just not in the manner we prefer"....they explicitly state they don't want people doing this, and that was long before the pdfs came around. They know exactly what they are doing.

[highnote]

Bad part is that this won't stop the offshores. They'll hire a programmer to write software to convert the PDF charts like they were doing with the HTML ones.


It's probably cheaper for them (whoever they are) to subscribe to a service than it is to hire an expensive programmer who might have to change the code frequently.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Gametheory,

You wrote "-- If they would just sell complete charts in comma-delimited format for $25/mo instead of $150/mo (Trackmaster price, an Equibase company) or even $75/mo (PostTimeDaily.com price, although I can't actually find this deal on their website, I've been told it exists), there wouldn't be much complaint I don't think."

Heck, I'd be happy if anyone sold csv charts with all the information in the free html charts at _any_ price. To the best of my knowledge, every single fee based computer usable chart product lacks information from the Equibase html charts.

Mike Nunamaker

[GameTheory]

The Trackmaster charts look complete -- what's missing? The price is outrageous, but they look complete.

[sjk]

Perhaps the only thing missing is an ownership that I care to do business with.

[highnote]

Perhaps the only thing missing is an ownership that I care to do business with.


That brings up a good point... (hope it's not too far off topic)

bettors <===> RACETRACK <===> horsemen

I'm trying to understand the relationship between these three entities.

1. Racetracks put on the show.

2. The show requires horseman, so horseman enter their horses in hopes of winning prizes.

3. Bettors supply the money for the prizes (I'm leaving out slots for now).

Without Racetracks there is no show.

Without Horsemen there is no show.

Can there still be a show without bettors?

The jump races don't have betting, but a show takes place. How are the jump purses funded?

Isn't it the Horsemen's interest to have as much betting handle as possible? Does more handle mean larger purses?

[falconridge]

ToeToe: Please tell me where I can get free first swing information? Thanks!
Unceremoniously sacked announcer Ross Porter used to volunteer all sorts of goodies like that on his nightly mush-mouthed play-by-plays on the Dodger radio network. He also used to share such fascinating factoids as "There are currently 53 active major league baseball players named Jason. That's compared to 84 named Mike, still the most common name among major league ballplayers--if you include everyone named Miguel and Padres catcher Michel Hernandez." Don't bother to look it up. I've already checked, and Ross was right as rain.

I believe free first swing information can still be had, gratis, through the "Splits" option ESPN provides in its records on every ML player. You could even parse out such captivating esoterica as the likelihood of Abraham Nunez hitting safely on a 2-2 count, with runners at first and third, one out, in the seventh inning of a night game at a retractrable domed stadium (closed or open-sky), against a southpaw, with the score tied or Nunez's team trailing by three runs or less. (My intuition: as a St. Louis Cardinal, approximately one in three; as a Pittsburgh Pirate, approximately nil.) Now, if you could only put that to profitable use.

[rokitman]

:( Why have you foresaken us, GT? WHY?!!!

TSN is going to stay available as HTML. They are supplied by Equibase. If their supplier was going to impose PDF on them, it would be done by now. Note that TSN still does not have Equibase-style draconian TOS on the matter. There is a theme here. A message. And it is, Get your free HTML from our ugly-duckling paying affiliate. And, if you want every possible detail, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. It's time to adapt and move on.

I am now formally offering 53 $mackers for You-Know-Who to convert his Thingy to TSN/BRIS. I urge all you Crybabies, and I say that in the most loving way :liar: , to add to my offer! It's time to put up or shuddup!

Thank you for your attention on this matter.

[mikejlb]

:( Why have you foresaken us, GT? WHY?!!!

TSN is going to stay available as HTML. They are supplied by Equibase. If their supplier was going to impose PDF on them, it would be done by now. Note that TSN still does not have Equibase-style draconian TOS on the matter. There is a theme here. A message. And it is, Get your free HTML from our ugly-duckling paying affiliate. And, if you want every possible detail, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. It's time to adapt and move on.

I am now formally offering 53 $mackers for You-Know-Who to convert his Thingy to TSN/BRIS. I urge all you Crybabies, and I say that in the most loving way :liar: , to add to my offer! It's time to put up or shuddup!

Thank you for your attention on this matter.

This is a pretty good idea if it could be made to work with bris drf files. Many guys have bris databases. The problem I see is the missing fields like prime power and other fields that bris uses. It's discouraging to start over with a new database. As far as adding to your offer, I would do that because I should have contributed a long time ago and I didn't think about it.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Gametheory,

You wrote "The Trackmaster charts look complete -- what's missing? The price is outrageous, but they look complete."

The text versions indeed do look complete. The last time I looked before today (admittedly several years ago), they were missing some things, but they all appear to have been added. That's very good. However, the csv Trackmaster charts have had all the race comments stripped out. Another problem is that the trackmaster charts do not show up for quite a while after the races are run. As long as 4-5 days in my experience.

Mike Nunamaker

[GameTheory]

Hi Gametheory,

You wrote "The Trackmaster charts look complete -- what's missing? The price is outrageous, but they look complete."

The text versions indeed do look complete. The last time I looked before today (admittedly several years ago), they were missing some things, but they all appear to have been added. That's very good. However, the csv Trackmaster charts have had all the race comments stripped out. Another problem is that the trackmaster charts do not show up for quite a while after the races are run. As long as 4-5 days in my experience.

I just looked at the .csv specs, and there is a comment field in there. They might not have individual comments, can't remember. But if they don't show up for 4 days there goes that option as a possibility since that would render them useless in my book....

[DJofSD]

Bad part is that this won't stop the offshores. They'll hire a programmer to write software to convert the PDF charts like they were doing with the HTML ones.

Yes, they could do that. More likely, they'll have a gaggle of people fat-finger the information into a computer.

DJofSD

[GameTheory]

:( Why have you foresaken us, GT? WHY?!!!

TSN is going to stay available as HTML. They are supplied by Equibase. If their supplier was going to impose PDF on them, it would be done by now. Note that TSN still does not have Equibase-style draconian TOS on the matter. There is a theme here. A message. And it is, Get your free HTML from our ugly-duckling paying affiliate. And, if you want every possible detail, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. It's time to adapt and move on.

I am now formally offering 53 $mackers for You-Know-Who to convert his Thingy to TSN/BRIS. I urge all you Crybabies, and I say that in the most loving way :liar: , to add to my offer! It's time to put up or shuddup!

Thank you for your attention on this matter.
My parser hasn't been available (or supported) for *years* now (well before all these restrictions were added to their TOS) -- it's time to move on. I don't even have the code anymore, and it was such a kludgy mess that conversion to a whole other format would be impossible. So it ain't gonna happen. I saw this coming and stopped parsing charts personally a long time ago.

And it would be a waste of time anyway. After talking to several "insiders" recently about this, all I can say is that I do not expect to see HTML charts available from ANYONE within six months from now. You can also expect to be required to login to access any free stuff that is available so they can track your downloads. And believe me, the fact that you guys are posting on a public forum how to crack the new pdf charts isn't going to help your situation any.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Compared to racing, I do not believe other sports will live or die by the bet.
Injury reports may be useful for betting, but they are also very useful for the sports fantasy leagues (and the betting in that?!)
I like as much information as possible, free or otherwise to choose from and from reading about ChartPlus, Equibase has more available now regardless of the cost or format.

[DJofSD]

-- HTML charts are "pdf-lite" format. You're not supposed to be able to do anything with HTML charts other than look at them and print them out, just like pdf. They happen to be easier to deal with as far as parsing, but they certainly aren't designed with that in mind.

You're joking, right?

PDF-lite my ass. Have you ever used the "show source" function of your browser? Do you know what a mark-up, as in hyper text mark-up language, is designed to do? Do you think that mark-up functions were invented at the same time as the internet?

Do you understand the function of a browser? Does regular expression parser mean anything to you?

DJofSD

[falconridge]

:( There is a theme here. A message. And it is, Get your free HTML from our ugly-duckling paying affiliate. And, if you want every possible detail, you're going to have to pay through the nose for it. It's time to adapt and move on.
The most adaptable, protean, and resourceful species of all: the horseplayer. I don't know what comma-delimited files are, but I trust my colleagues can and have put them to profitable use, just as revolutionaries like Andy Beyer and Len Ragozin devised absolute, variable-adjusted quantifications of speed and graphic depictions of form cycles, and untold legions of other in-the-black players assimilated, modified, or invented their own ingenious methods. Whether the challenge is scarcity of information or too-easy accessibility thereto, the creative horseplayer (and all the surviving ones are) will always find a way to gain enough of an edge to stay ahead of the game.

And what a great game this is. Moral zealotry and social oppression couldn't kill it, Draconian legislation couldn't kill it, lax enforcement couldn't kill it, the ill-conceived largesse of state racing commissions--which gave us year-round, day-and-night dilution of talent--couldn't kill it, and, so far, competition from state lotteries and casino gambling hasn't killed it (though we may be forgiven if we think we hear the death-whinnies). The game changes, and pine as we might for the days of fuller fields, lower takeout, and "free" key data, we change. We adapt, we look deeper, we explore other possibilities, we move on.

[DJofSD]

And it would be a waste of time anyway. After talking to several "insiders" recently about this, all I can say is that I do not expect to see HTML charts available from ANYONE within six months from now. You can also expect to be required to login to access any free stuff that is available so they can track your downloads. And believe me, the fact that you guys are posting on a public forum how to crack the new pdf charts isn't going to help your situation any.

Yes, I believe everything you've stated is accurate and true.

There have been indications over the years that this day was coming.

Going to PDF will greatly discourge a large amount of folks. It'll include me. But it won't prevent the gleaning of information from happening.

The industry has a right to protect it's assets. I view this as not any different than Las Vegas discouraging card counters at the 21 tables. I quit blackjack and I'll likely quit handicapping. But I'll at least wait to see how it pans out.

I should not be surprised this turn of events has finally taken place. I've never used data I've obtained to cheat my data vendor of choice out of any revenue. In other words, when I played the races, I purchased PP data. But I know that it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the barrel. And very likely that's what has happened. One thing that I haven't seen discussed in this thread is what the data providers have seen in their numbers -- number of paying clients, how many web hits they see, their revenues compared to handles and other industry trends. I'd bet the analysis showed the profit curve and the cost of doing business is sloping the wrong way. I certainly don't expect or want them to go out of business.

So, good luck to all those that have screwed it up for those of us that have tried to keep the goose that lays the eggs alive as long as possible.

DJofSD

[GameTheory]

You're joking, right?

PDF-lite my ass. Have you ever used the "show source" function of your browser? Do you know what a mark-up, as in hyper text mark-up language, is designed to do? Do you think that mark-up functions were invented at the same time as the internet?

Do you understand the function of a browser? Does regular expression parser mean anything to you?

I'm speaking of Equibase's point-of-view of the HTML charts, not the technical properties of HTML. People are acting as if Equibase is taking away something they previously offered, but from Equibase's POV anybody doing practically anything with the charts (including merely saving them long-term) was STEALING from them. So complaining to Equibase, "Hey, I can't parse the charts anymore" is silly when they considered parsing charts to be stealing in the first place. So they are pdf-lite in the sense that you have to make an effort to extract the data out of them, as opposed to comma-delimited charts where the data is "pre-extracted". So from their POV, pdf charts are just a higher security version of HTML charts -- they haven't taken anything away because they were never offering it in the first place.

[GameTheory]

So, good luck to all those that have screwed it up for those of us that have tried to keep the goose that lays the eggs alive as long as possible.Everyone's been telling me that they made this move not to thwart individual databasers like we have around here, but the off-shores and other unlicensed users of data that redistribute on the internet. They don't mind that it thwarts individuals as well because they don't like them either, but that wasn't the main motivating factor. (They figure individual databasers are "cheap" by definition and therefore are basically irrelevant -- they don't gain or lose from those people.) They even consider anyone selling picks (or just posting them) on the internet who gives horse names, program numbers, and morning line information to be data thieves. (I've seen some internal documents on this stuff -- the off-shores aren't just a public excuse, they really are the reason.) I would expect you'll next see the daily entries get some higher security as well...

[toetoe]

Ken,

I disagree. It's an indirect relationship, but would the NFL, even with the huge TV revenue, even with the willing-to-pay-any-price fans, survive without the gambling?

I guess my argument becomes academic when we figure that NFL fans would just pay for the data. And I guess racing will survive without freeloaders like me. But the picture of health, it's not.

[ezpace]

I say Killem all!!!!!

[highnote]

I second that.

Wouldn't it be easier to use something like BitTorrent to share files?

Personally, I've never used BitTorrent, but it sounds like it is something that is useful for those so inclined. Hell, if Hollywood can't stop file sharing how could the racing industry?

Since I don't bet anymore and I don't have a need for data, file sharing comma-delimited charts isn't of any use to me, but I'd like to know if something like this is possible. It is provocative.

Has anyone thought along these lines?

[linrom1]

Everyone's been telling me that they made this move not to thwart individual databasers like we have around here, but the off-shores and other unlicensed users of data that redistribute on the internet. They don't mind that it thwarts individuals as well because they don't like them either, but that wasn't the main motivating factor. (They figure individual databasers are "cheap" by definition and therefore are basically irrelevant -- they don't gain or lose from those people.) They even consider anyone selling picks (or just posting them) on the internet who gives horse names, program numbers, and morning line information to be data thieves. (I've seen some internal documents on this stuff -- the off-shores aren't just a public excuse, they really are the reason.) I would expect you'll next see the daily entries get some higher security as well...

The end for Equibase must be near.... looks like they missed the bankruptcy deadline though. Too bad.

[linrom1]

I say Killem all!!!!!

I second that too.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Gametheory,

You wrote "and there is a comment field in there"

Holy mackeral, you are correct. The entire comment is now there! In the past, there was a wide gulf between the comment in the csv file and the comments in the free Equibase charts.

I made this point about nine months ago to some of my contacts at Trackmaster. I guess people listen to me more than I thought! Well, the csv charts look pretty complete now. Now if they could only get them up a little faster...

Mike Nunamaker

[DJofSD]

as if Equibase is taking away something they previously offered, but from Equibase's POV anybody doing practically anything with the charts (including merely saving them long-term) was STEALING from them.

Well, they can asert that but I'm not sure they have a leg to stand on.


TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 1 > § 107

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Release date: 2005-08-01

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.



I believe I am using the information under the fair use clause. I am performing research. My efforts are not commercial in nature nor am I reducing the potential market or the value of the work, especially when I purchase the PPs when I do plan on betting a race.

DJofSD

[GameTheory]

Well, they can asert that but I'm not sure they have a leg to stand on.



I believe I am using the information under the fair use clause. I am performing research. My efforts are not commercial in nature nor am I reducing the potential market or the value of the work, especially when I purchase the PPs when I do plan on betting a race.
I believe they recognize they are on shaky ground copyright-wise. Which is exactly why they have "Terms Of Use" -- an End User License Agreement if you will -- that attempts to apply contract law to the situation rather than copyright law. In other words, you AGREE (supposedly) to their terms when you use (or simply view) their charts. Personally, I think they are on shaky ground there too, but I'm not a lawyer. If they made you login and you agreed to this and that (and made you hit one of those "I Agree" buttons) then I could see that having some standing, but just posting something on the site that you probably haven't even read is supposed to be getting your implicit consent to their terms? Seems shaky. Notice it doesn't say anywhere anything about prosecuting you if you don't comply with their terms -- it just says that if they think you are not complying, they will cut off your account, block you, etc. The problem is they feel they OWN the data, which of course they don't really. They just control it. And they are a monopoly. If someone really wanted to press the issue (which no one will, because there isn't anything in it for them) I think the whole Equibase arrangement wouldn't pass muster on a number of fronts -- anti-trust, copyright issues, etc.

[highnote]

Many tracks have a website where they post their own result charts. Some just link to Equibase.

When the racetracks got together and created Equibase, they created a monster.

If the racetracks are willing to send their chart files to Equibase everyday, why not post the same file on their own websites everyday.

People who use comma-delimited charts for a particular track(s) could download them from each racetrack on a regular basis. This would alleviate some of the bandwidth issues at Equibase. The only racing site that seems to be slower than Equibase is DRF. Spreading the traffic around might speed things up.

Also, every racetrack could use the same comma-delimited fields so they could be put into a database. Afterall, we want to assess shippers, too.

If the race tracks care about the horsemen, their own bottom line and their customers satisfaction then they would take some of the burden off Equibase.

By alienating bettors, the race tracks are harming the horsemen. So what do the race tracks really want? Anyone who is successful in business knows that the customer is always right -- except for the race tracks. And they wonder why business is in decline.

Come on Magna and NYRA -- step up to the plate and deliver the goods.

[Tom]

The Trackmaster charts look complete -- what's missing? The price is outrageous, but they look complete.

TM charts are taboo to me - used to buy them all the time, for multiple tracks, but a lot of files contain to many errors to be used, even in thier own Track Models program - extra field or missing filed here and there. This went on for well over a year and a half, and all reports to them went unanswered, except one that said they do not support the Track Models program.
Prices and crappy all at once.
They were good charts, included pace figs and everything, if you didn't mind unuable files every few days.

[BillW]

TM charts are taboo to me - used to buy them all the time, for multiple tracks, but a lot of files contain to many errors to be used, even in thier own Track Models program - extra field or missing filed here and there. This went on for well over a year and a half, and all reports to them went unanswered, except one that said they do not support the Track Models program.
Prices and crappy all at once.
They were good charts, included pace figs and everything, if you didn't mind unuable files every few days.

Tom,

I'm curious, when did you have this experience. I was looking at them when they first put the charts on the market (don't remember the year, but it was in the first few months they were on the market). Identical story here. After working with them for a few months, I finally decided they weren't going to change anytime soon and gave up. The final straw was them giving me a copy of their windows (DOS?) program "for the trouble" I was having. Nice - spend more money with us - it'll make up for your bad experience :rolleyes: .

I would hope that they are much better now (hence my question).

Bill

[DJofSD]

If the racetracks are willing to send their chart files to Equibase everyday, why not post the same file on their own websites everyday.

The race tracks do not provide the data to Equibase. Equibase employees the chart callers and provides the means to transmit and store the data the chart callers produce.

Yes, there are a number of tracks that have web sites which display the results charts. NYRA is one of them. At the bottom of the chart there is an explicit copyright notice for both NYRA and Equibase.

DJofSD

[GameTheory]

Hi Gametheory,

You wrote "and there is a comment field in there"

Holy mackeral, you are correct. The entire comment is now there! In the past, there was a wide gulf between the comment in the csv file and the comments in the free Equibase charts.

I made this point about nine months ago to some of my contacts at Trackmaster. I guess people listen to me more than I thought! Well, the csv charts look pretty complete now. Now if they could only get them up a little faster...
Since they listen to you, see if you can get them to lop a $100 or so off the monthly price. $150/mo is grossly offensive just for charts...

[Tom]

Tom,

I'm curious, when did you have this experience. I was looking at them when they first put the charts on the market (don't remember the year, but it was in the first few months they were on the market). Identical story here. After working with them for a few months, I finally decided they weren't going to change anytime soon and gave up. The final straw was them giving me a copy of their windows (DOS?) program "for the trouble" I was having. Nice - spend more money with us - it'll make up for your bad experience :rolleyes: .

I would hope that they are much better now (hence my question).

Bill

Couple of years ago...never went back and never will. TM is a slather assed operation in my book.

[highnote]

The race tracks do not provide the data to Equibase. Equibase employees the chart callers and provides the means to transmit and store the data the chart callers produce.

Yes, there are a number of tracks that have web sites which display the results charts. NYRA is one of them. At the bottom of the chart there is an explicit copyright notice for both NYRA and Equibase.

DJofSD

So Equibase employs the chart callers? Wonder what they pay them per month?

So from those chart callers come the comma-delimited charts that everyone in the industry uses? How much money does the industry make selling data made from those result charts?

So the tracks must get a royalty or something from Equibase?

What is the role the tracks play in running Equibase?

It's an interesting relationship. I don't know the intricacies of it. Does anyone here have some insight?

[highnote]

Couple of years ago...never went back and never will. TM is a slather assed operation in my book.

Isn't TM an Equibase company?

[BillW]

Couple of years ago...never went back and never will. TM is a slather assed operation in my book.

This happened to me in 1996 (I think :confused: )

[Tom]

Actually, it looks like 1999-200 for me.....time flies when you're having fun!

[mikejlb]

Well, they can asert that but I'm not sure they have a leg to stand on.



I believe I am using the information under the fair use clause. I am performing research. My efforts are not commercial in nature nor am I reducing the potential market or the value of the work, especially when I purchase the PPs when I do plan on betting a race.

DJofSD

This is very interesting. What I read in the copyright limitations is: 1. If two people want to research a handicapping factor and the findings will not be sold they could share files from different tracks. 2. A wife who doesn't play the horses could purchase the files and she wouldn't have to have any knowlege of how the files might be used so she wouldn't be violating any website agreements.

The silly thing about all this is that by making historical data affordable this would attract new blood into the sport. The new people would eventually purchase daily files to handicap races. It costs very little to upload a data file and the more they sell = more profit, no? I don't understand what can be gained by keeping the customer base small.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Further complicating things for fans is the explosion in simulcasting. When fans were following mainly their home circuit only, they might need 1 data file a day. Now that many follow 3-4 or more tracks/circuits, that means 3-4 times as many pps & results files of interest. Tough enough if you have a year round circuit 52 weeks x 5 days a week = 260 cards. 4 year rounds circuits could make 1,040 results files. Rather tough spending $1 a piece for results files. When I started with handicapping with computers while trying to learn the game, the results files alone were $4 a piece, and I found I could type 2 days worth of results with just the pieces I wanted, in an hour, so I typed them - for 14 years. But that was only 1 circuit. 4 circuits? I would never have considered it. Tough enough spending $260 for 1 circuit ($1040 when I started). How could I justify spending $1,040 for 4 circuits (would have been $4160 at $4 a piece when I started). Heck, its hard enough to learn the game, and nd spend over $900 a year just on PPS. Add an extra $260-$1040 onto just knowing and/or being able to study the results with a computer. Heck, its easy a handicapper to to lose a lot more than $2,000 at the windows a year, while needing to win $1200-2000 a year just to cover the costs of one's data.

While there are several licensed PP providers and data providers, customers are dependent on these dealer's formatting styles and standards. Of course, being independent thinkers, each of us handicappers likely has, and/or are continuously developing our own personal standards, perceptions and 'needs' to examine the data. Some providers only show win percentage and flat bet ROI, and use data that can be from multiple meets. Some services give us ratings, which give stats and a proprietary formula that expresses either a letter grade, or a number like a baseball batting average. These might work well for some - use what ever works for you. But many of us likely have our own preferences. For my own private stats, I'll calculate a Win & "Good" percentage ("Good to me being within 3 lengths of the winner), but since they're my own personal stats, I can change criteria and recalculate them as often as I wish. I normally break them out by odds ranges so I can see if the stats are skewed by favorites or longshots, so that I can include or exclude enough data to get hopefully closer to that ever evasive thing in racing stats called the 'real truth'.

I recently gave up trying to make my own customized PPS based on the PPS Data files I but (Formulator 4.0). Personally I would not consider making my own PPS from downloaded national charts - corrections and other things can change that a person won't about. Now I just build supplemental reports that lookup the extra data, notes, and private stats I have that are not included in the PPS, and use them together.

Since I personally stuggle with time do both my job and manage my own files, plus personal managment, and overall concentration, I'm not totally convinced that I'm currently better off doing it my own way vs just using what others provide and making do and getting comfortable with their formats instead. But I certainly did find it very valuable to have my own data files and do my own programming for my first several years in studying and learning the game.

[bobbyb]

Hank Zeiltin, Ex VP & COO of Equibase and His Power Point Presentation TRA Conference - 10/05/2005

If you have Power Point you can view his presentation @ www.tra-online.com

If you do not have PP: There really wasn't a whole lot of pertinent info in the slide show other than:

"100 Web Sites that appear to offer racing Data without proper Licencing"

A 1 Day Review of Traffic Patterns at Equibase.com revealed:

a)100 IP/User Agents requesting >50 chart files

2 (a and b) User Agents in particular were cited (with coded names, which I have not included, and can be read with PP):

a)Minutes ON - 1440
# of Charts - 2139
Charts Per Minute - 1.5

b)Minutes ON - 17
# of Charts - 992
Charts per Minute - 58.4

I do not DB, so with that in mind I will not comment on Eq.'s decisions to encrypt.
However, if this were to happen to a business I owned, I'd be doing something about it.


bobbyb

[DJofSD]

"100 Web Sites that appear to offer racing Data without proper Licencing"

There's the crux of the matter.

I wonder how much of that is actually true. And I wonder what Equibase considers to be racing Data.

DJofSD

[Grifter]

PA -- See the Todd Bowker presentation, "Protecting Your Data in the Wild". He lists the Pace Advantage forum as one of his "Examples of data run amok."

Damned if I 've seen any amok-running data around here. We need to ask Mr. Bowker where on the forum he found it.

Alternatively, perhaps Mr. Bowker is simply a barnyard associate of Henny Penny... Turkey-Lurkey, probably.

-- Grifter

[rokitman]

Running amok, huh?

What is taking races from South Africa, Hong Kong and Australia called?

[Steve 'StatMan']

One example might be when people ask each other on the forum, or by PM's, if they'll share files they forgot to download in time before they are gone from the free service. Since these files then become part of the pay service, and would sure seem like a clear violation to me, unpleasant thought that may be. I've kindly turned people down the 2-3 requests I've gotten over the 2-3 years I've been on the board, and I cringe when I see a post in the forum asking for these files, because I know what's happening and what EQB will be thinking.

Personally, I've missed a few chart files, but I haven't filled them in. While I've been saving them while they are 'free', I don't have any short-term plans to use them other than to catch up my verification of my handicapping results. I've made a list of the ones I'm missing, figuring if I ever did need them for research, that would be the time to get a short-term subscription and fill them all in at once for a realistic price. Now that it takes up to 15 minutes a day just to download and save the charts manually, that frequent chore in the hopes of saving money by acting on a near-daily basis is a far less attractive option. Not sure if I should continue, or buy a subscription and no longer worry about getting a chart when I need it, but frankly I don't know when I'll have the time to actually need them for the research. I've got 10 years of DRF Simulcast Weeklys in boxes and piles that have been very much unused the whole time. Makes me wonder why I even bother saving results from tracks other than my home circuit, even though I know I want to be free to expand, cost-effectively, some day. Why subscribe now and continue to pay monthly or quarterly for the privilage of mostly the same but growing base of data, knowing that I'll still have no need for virtually any of it until 'the time I do the research of other circuits' finally comes. I've waited for 10 years already, maybe I should just keep waiting or just say the heck with all of it.

[GameTheory]

PA -- See the Todd Bowker presentation, "Protecting Your Data in the Wild". He lists the Pace Advantage forum as one of his "Examples of data run amok."

Damned if I 've seen any amok-running data around here. We need to ask Mr. Bowker where on the forum he found it.

Alternatively, perhaps Mr. Bowker is simply a barnyard associate of Henny Penny... Turkey-Lurkey, probably.

At least he acknowledges that customers do in fact exist and have legitimate uses for the data. I haven't seen that before. In fact, I've been told specifically that we are irrelevant unless we're betting millions of dollars. His presentation didn't have much in there, obviously most of the content was in the speech that went along with it.

[cj]

Let's be realistic here...Equibase can do pretty much what they want, but if they offer the charts in ANY electronic form, either free or pay, they are not going to stop databasing of results. If they think they will, they are kidding themselves. Hell, even offering them in print only won't stop the practice.

As for listing PA as an example, he was talking about the sharing of YouBet links on the forum, which are supposed to be secure. The PP slideshow is linked to that thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

As for listing PA as an example, he was talking about the sharing of YouBet links on the forum, which are supposed to be secure. The PP slideshow is linked to that thread.

Can't wait to get home and fire up PP....lol

Then can't wait to fire up Outlook and fire an e-mail off to Mr. Bowker....

[PaceAdvantage]

On second thought, no email to Bowker....but, I will ask, is it really this website's responsibility to compensate for YouBet's lack of security when it comes to their video signal?

[Tom]

U Bet need a new pimp!


Hohoho!:bang:

(Psssst, Bowker......U can quote me on that.....Loser)

[PaceAdvantage]

I could understand if someone was posting accont info, or logon codes, but links to video? I think that might fall under the category of "Public Service", as it alerted YouBet to the fact that their video security was way too lax....

[PaceAdvantage]

And you know what the most screwed up thing in ALL of this is? I'll tell you by way of a little rant:

The higher-up from America TAB (Mr. Bowker) goes through all that trouble to create a nice little Power Point presentation about the evils of the Internet and how everyone is out there pilfering their stuff (including this little ol' site with its video links, which should have been useless from the get go with a little programming knowledge).

YET NOBODY from either YouBet, America TAB or ANYWHERE ELSE ever bothered to email me a little note asking me to remove these posts where these links were supposedly causing someones business to go practically belly up....

Isn't that interesting?

Absolutely incredible if you ask me....

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess the perfect ending to this story would involve me going back to those months-old threads and deleting those now dead and useless video links....LOL

(ok, i was just informed that some of these links still work....even worse!)

[Tom]

The perfect ending would be for those chowder heads at U Bet to shut up and go back home and learn how to run a web page. If thier signal is being stolen, then they should be firing thier systems administator. They could use the salary they pay that Power Point chowder head.

My experieince with U Bet is they staff nincompoops for tech support and have the customer service skills of DRF.

[PaceAdvantage]

To be fair, the Power Point presenter works for America TAB, not YouBet. Perhaps they all get their video feeds from the same place, I don't know....

[DJofSD]

If thier signal is being stolen, then they should be firing thier systems administator.

Peter principal states they get promoted.

But in all seriousness, these are the same poeple with the same group-think that are making sure that BC p-6 coup doesn't happen again!

DJofSD

[cj]

To be fair, the Power Point presenter works for America TAB, not YouBet. Perhaps they all get their video feeds from the same place, I don't know....

It is my experience that the AmericaTAB signal is much better protected than the YouBet one.

[mikejlb]

I guess the perfect ending to this story would involve me going back to those months-old threads and deleting those now dead and useless video links....LOL

(ok, i was just informed that some of these links still work....even worse!)

Freedom of speech might include people asking someone for a $0.25 file that they missed and they don't realize that this is illegal and that little $0.25 file might cost them thier freedom! Yeah the good guys might raid thier homes, hit thier families with big sticks, and grab thier computer and then send the guy to prison for many years.

Me thinks EQ is fullachit. To infer that it's PA's responsibility to police for them is just plain stupidity. If this were true then what about all the thieves that ask about the quality of various programs? Should PA be required to tell them they need to buy the program to see if it works ok?

I'm sure many of you remember when old racing forms had value for research purposes. Around here they sold for around $100 a year. Guys advertised them in various places like Philips news, and local newspapers. They sold information that is not digital but hard copies seemed to be ok. Around the same time period VCR's started to become popular and they were made to copy movies. Now CDR's copy movies too but one is ok and the other is illegal.

Life is confusing enough without corporate greed that results in companies like EQ insulting and intimidating PA and everyone that reads it. Fairness in pricing, trying to promote the sport by offering historical data at a big discount, and respecting customers is a choice that might result in more sales and more profit.

[PaceAdvantage]

Quite frankly, it would have been NICE if someone from YouBet, or AmericaTab, or WHEREVER those video links were emanating from, would have contacted me about the legality of posting such links.

Sure, someone on here mentioned the video may be from YouBet, but I didn't know if that was actually true. As far as I knew, it was a link to somewhere called BOSS STREAMER etc...what the hell is that?

How the hell am I supposed to know whether or not the link is to some commercial venture without them cluing me in....?

They saw fit to throw my website into some "thievery" power point presentation, but obviously weren't concerned enough to throw a friendly little email my way to let me know that the links should be removed.

Too much clowning around if you ask me (and you didn't....LOL) :bang:

[Tom]

Frankly, if it's on the web, and you can get to it, it's yours - laws go to hell. If you put something out there and are TOO STUPID to protect it, YOU are the idiot (I mean YOU, AT and UB - you friggin MORONS)
You own a store, you leave your merchandise out on the sidewalk, YOU is the fool!

Data whores covers a lot of internet fools.
BTW, I would love to see if the AT dope has a legal copy of PowerPoint! :D

[GameTheory]

Frankly, if it's on the web, and you can get to it, it's yours - laws go to hell. If you put something out there and are TOO STUPID to protect it, YOU are the idiot (I mean YOU, AT and UB - you friggin MORONS)
You own a store, you leave your merchandise out on the sidewalk, YOU is the fool!
The fact that it is easy to reproduce stuff is the whole reason the copyright laws were invented. A book is easy to copy, right? (Esp. with photocopiers which weren't around when they came up with copyrights, but there were printing presses which is what they had in mind.) The law exists because protecting things physically is hard, and ends up restricting the flow of information. So the book is protected by laws instead of restricting access to the book. The whole idea is promote the free exchange of ideas whilst protecting creators financially for the work they put in. But then we've got the fair use exceptions, which put research and the pursuit of knowledge even above the interests of the creator. So in a sense if it is out there, it is yours for your own use ("fair" use, meaning non-commercial), but it isn't yours so that you can do anything at all you want with it (like resell it).

[PaceAdvantage]

So then, what would posting a link to a live video feed fall under? Is it technically a violation of copyright law, or the new Digital Millennium Copyright Act?

I would think the posting of a link is a very grey area, amongst an already huge grey area of Internet copyright law.

BTW, I removed all links to the videos on this website, just to err on the side of caution. But, part of me does not like the way this whole situation was handled...not one bit. And part of me would love to find out if it is technically against the law to post a link to the YouBet videos.....

[cj]

I'd be pissed if they were flashing my web site as "run amok" or whatever it was at a conference without even contacting me...you are a nicer guy than me!

[GameTheory]

So then, what would posting a link to a live video feed fall under? Is it technically a violation of copyright law, or the new Digital Millennium Copyright Act?

I would think the posting of a link is a very grey area, amongst an already huge grey area of Internet copyright law.

BTW, I removed all links to the videos on this website, just to err on the side of caution. But, part of me does not like the way this whole situation was handled...not one bit. And part of me would love to find out if it is technically against the law to post a link to the YouBet videos.....There have been a number of weird court decisions regarding linking. For instance, if you link to a site that sells somebody something and defrauds them, you can be liable for the fraud -- UNLESS you have a disclaimer on your site that says you are not endorsing sites you link to, etc etc. And the disclaimer is only valid legally if it is posted in ALL CAPS -- if not it isn't valid.

And I think you can get into trouble for linking to sites that are illegally republishing copyrighted material even if you yourself are not.

But linking to the legal copyright holder's video links? I don't see how that could get you into trouble because they COULD be giving it away for free if they so choose. And they were basically because no logon was required. But again, there are some weird decisions about "deep linking" -- some sites only want links to their front pages. Now if you were providing your own video feed that was really stolen from their feed, obviously you can't do that. But linking to their valid feed that they failed to protect? Seems unreasonable to put that burden on you.

Many of these decisions seem to come from the fact that the judges involved (and possibly juries, but there probably weren't juries involved) probably have no clue about the internet and are going strictly by the picture painted by lawyers arguing the case. Because many of them seem to make no sense whatsoever and bear little relationship to the reality of the internet.

So, basically you need a lawyer to make practically any decision these days...

[NoDayJob]

PA, I know an excellent copyright/intellectual properties attorney. If you're interested just let me know.

NDJ [AKA Troll #1]

[Tom]

GT,

I am not advocating selling someone else's data ( but if it is being done, I could care less - screw them!)

How about this - I buy a USA Today and read it, them leave it on the bench at the airport. Same as posting a link?
Or I hand it the guy sitting next me on the plane. Same as buying a DRF file and sending a coy to a friend? Or, make that printing out my pps then sending the original file to a friend?
I leave the track early, throw my form down and somebody picks it up. DRf going to piss and moan that I am costing them sales?

I would love one of the data whores to explain the difference to me.

My whole point is that PA runs one of the best site ont heweb, not jsut horse racing sutes, and for some piece of traash pin head to come out and do what he did is more that reason for me to say to everyone - take whatever you can get from the bastards - they deserve no repsect.

[highnote]

Industry people slagging PA? -- Now that's a great way to make your customers happy.

Is there a better racing message board on the web?

Maybe industry people are slagging PA because so many smart people (myself excluded) post here? These smart PA people get to the truth. Sometimes the truth ain't pretty. Maybe the industry people don't like what they see when they look at themselves in the PA mirror?

[GameTheory]

GT,

I am not advocating selling someone else's data ( but if it is being done, I could care less - screw them!)

How about this - I buy a USA Today and read it, them leave it on the bench at the airport. Same as posting a link?
Or I hand it the guy sitting next me on the plane. Same as buying a DRF file and sending a coy to a friend? Or, make that printing out my pps then sending the original file to a friend?
I leave the track early, throw my form down and somebody picks it up. DRf going to piss and moan that I am costing them sales?

I would love one of the data whores to explain the difference to me.

My whole point is that PA runs one of the best site ont heweb, not jsut horse racing sutes, and for some piece of traash pin head to come out and do what he did is more that reason for me to say to everyone - take whatever you can get from the bastards - they deserve no repsect.
In most cases, you would be able to give someone your data files provided you did not also keep copies for yourself. That would just like the newspaper -- there is only one copy circulating, and that was paid for. It is when you start making new duplicate copies and giving those out that you'd be violating copyright. Now some data sellers may say you're not allowed to transfer your copies even if you don't keep them for yourself as well, but if you did it anyway that wouldn't be copyright infringement but something else -- breech of your license agreement or something...

[rokitman]

A Google search led to this http://www.missinglink.com/pacescan.htm which led to this ftp://ftp.missinglink.com/pub/ (useful to anybody?) amongst some other abandoned pages from The Missing Link http://www.missinglink.com/index.html Anybody know what happened to this Dennis Allen dood?

[Figman]

Firefox announced within the past few days that downloads of their browser just passed the million mark.

Youbet, that technological giant of the betting world, just sent me the following message.

"Thank you for contacting Youbet.com. Unfortunately are (sic) systems do not work properly with firefox browser. Sorry about the inconvenience."

"are"=our

How could they safeguard they video when they can't even become compatible with the popular Firefox browser?

[BillW]

Firefox announced within the past few days that downloads of their browser just passed the million mark.

Youbet, that technological giant of the betting world, just sent me the following message.

"Thank you for contacting Youbet.com. Unfortunately are (sic) systems do not work properly with firefox browser. Sorry about the inconvenience."

"are"=our

How could they safeguard they video when they can't even become compatible with the popular Firefox browser?

Figman - that was one hundred million in the past year :) Of course that includes multiples for people upgrading to new versions and doesn't include a single download to upgrade an entire company.

[BillW]

Tom,

What companies are worried about is the speed that a computer can duplicate their data. A newspaper being passed around to a few people will not hurt business. But one person getting a data subscription and passing pp's around for every track, every day is an issue. I have never met nor heard of anyone abusing the system in this manner. They are probably paranoid due the the propaganda campaigns of MS ("Business Software Alliance") and the Entertainment industry.

Bill

[Tom]

U Bet has always been technologically challenged.

[Zaf]

U Bet has always been technologically challenged.

Responding to a simple question in an e-mail is far beyond their capabilities :eek: !

ZAFONIC

[highnote]

Tom,

What companies are worried about is the speed that a computer can duplicate their data. A newspaper being passed around to a few people will not hurt business. But one person getting a data subscription and passing pp's around for every track, every day is an issue. I have never met nor heard of anyone abusing the system in this manner. They are probably paranoid due the the propaganda campaigns of MS ("Business Software Alliance") and the Entertainment industry.

Bill

I can understand them wanting to protect the past performances. The pps have a lot of value added info. Even the layout of the information makes it useful.

My problem is the raw data that is used to create pps should be readily available at lower cost to users who have no intention of reselling the data, but only plan on using it to bet with.

I want to generate my own information from the raw data. I do not want to sell value added information or data. If other people have the same information as me then the information is not useful for pari-mutuel betting. Unique information is pari-mutuelly useful.

There are three very important distinctions that I don't think Equibase understands.

1.) Value Added Information providers should protect and be compensated for their value added information.

2.) Value Added Information providers should be compensated for raw data which is sold or licensed to companies or individuals who create and then resell value added information.

3.) Then, for the rest of us who are do-it-yourself handicappers/bettors, we should be able to obtain data at relatively low cost or for free for our own betting purposes. In fact, if Equibase truly represents the interests of the race tracks, then they should be giving away the data. Because having this data available to bettors would drive handle.

These are very simple, but important distinctions.

[Tom]

Just got an email notification - prices going to $1.50 per chart, $149 a month unlimited. No mention if all charts would be usable or not.

[GameTheory]

Just got an email notification - prices going to $1.50 per chart, $149 a month unlimited. No mention if all charts would be usable or not.Nothing new about that. Same prices as they have been for some time...

[takeout]

I used to get a text chart now and then and they used to only be a buck. I thought they were too high then. Raising them yet another fifty cents is a helluva hike in price.

[mikejlb]

GT,
My whole point is that PA runs one of the best site ont heweb, not jsut horse racing sutes, and for some piece of traash pin head to come out and do what he did is more that reason for me to say to everyone - take whatever you can get from the bastards - they deserve no repsect.

They deserve no respect? I agree with you. They insulted PA and they also insulted all of us that read PA and also buy thier products. I believe that unfairly high priced software and the greed behind it caused software piracy to get out of hand. Has that stopped? No. Look at places like Fossi has that openly post commercial software and that doesn't account for trading that is not so obvious.

Someone else suggested giving away historical data. It would cost them very little to do this and think of the increase in thier sales due to research, especially the expensive files like Allways, ect.. I might buy Allways files if research over a year or two proved profitable but how many of us can afford 2 years of Allways files and the charts? The increase sales on the expensive files and the $1 files too would undoubtedly increase sales and more important it would bring new players into the sport. Ideas that promote growth in the sport have to have some value to the sales and net income.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, you'd figure they'd like a guy like me....not ONE offshore ad anywhere on this website...and it's NOT like I haven't been propositioned many times by these offshore places to take on some of their advertising.

And here I was thinking I was helping promote the game of horse racing in my own tiny little way....but in reality, (according to some folks anyway) I've just been running a "video pirating" operation.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[cj]

....but in reality, (according to some folks anyway) I've just been running a "video pirating" operation.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Which, by the way, they have yet to adequately protect. Amazingly I'm able to watch racing on Youbet without any posts of links on PA, pretty pathetic operation they have going there.

[sjk]

Just got an email notification - prices going to $1.50 per chart, $149 a month unlimited. No mention if all charts would be usable or not.

Tom,

As the man from Equibase explained to me this is to deter the off-shore betting operations.

So, in case you were planning to start an off-shore betting venture and your budget cannot stretch to $149/ mo for data acquisition Equibase has put a stop to it.

[Tom]

I doubt they will stop off shores, but they have stopped me. I used to spend a significant amount ( to me) of money on TrackMaster products.....I don't even have a link to their website anymore. Chart were $1, were about 10% defective, and their solution is to raise the price 50%!!!
What a marketing strategy. For $119 a month, at HDW, I get PPs, charts. results, trainer stats, and more.....and HDW even performs quality control ont ier data - somehting the other data whores do not seem to do. $149 a month for charts? Bada bee bada baa!

[highnote]

I doubt they will stop off shores, but they have stopped me. I used to spend a significant amount ( to me) of money on TrackMaster products.....I don't even have a link to their website anymore. Chart were $1, were about 10% defective, and their solution is to raise the price 50%!!!
What a marketing strategy. For $119 a month, at HDW, I get PPs, charts. results, trainer stats, and more.....and HDW even performs quality control ont ier data - somehting the other data whores do not seem to do. $149 a month for charts? Bada bee bada baa!


HDW gets their data from Equibase. Equibase owns TrackMaster. So one way or another the monopoly gets your money.

There are instances of people cooperating to contribute data to various projects over the internet. I've read about scientists who collect data from people who voluntarily input data about an event. The data accumulates and studies can be made.

Maybe a website could be set up where people who watch the race replays can volunteer to fill out a webform that would take the webform data and put it into a database and from that database free past performance and chart data can be extracted.

This will take a little money up front to set it up and perhaps a small regular contribution of money from users, but the money contribution could be far less than what it costs to buy commercial data.

I think this is worth exploring.

Any thoughts?

[DJofSD]

I find this entire situation some what ironic. By that I mean if all of those so called data providers would have protected their data and access to it, this situation would not have been created.

And now they've decided to play 'catch up' and to run their business the way it should have been operated from the beginning, the legitimate customer is the one that pays the price.

DJofSD

[xfile]

Yeah, you'd figure they'd like a guy like me....not ONE offshore ad anywhere on this website...and it's NOT like I haven't been propositioned many times by these offshore places to take on some of their advertising.

And here I was thinking I was helping promote the game of horse racing in my own tiny little way....but in reality, (according to some folks anyway) I've just been running a "video pirating" operation.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

EQ is the Exxon/Mobile of horse racing? They didn't even contact you...you mentioned this. I wouldn't worry about their bullying tactics like mentioning PA at that conference. That's a joke....:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

It wasn't Equibase who mentioned this site at the seminar. It was an executive from AmericaTab....the online betting company.....

[KingChas]

Sorry Guys,but reading this thread on handing down or passing on of common information.Leads me to the believe that public librarys(data providers) are soon to become :eek: extinct! :D

[mikejlb]

And here I was thinking I was helping promote the game of horse racing in my own tiny little way....but in reality, (according to some folks anyway) I've just been running a "video pirating" operation.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In reality you are promoting the sport. If 1% of the guys on here become members so they can be critical or try to intimidate then you may have 1 out of 100 that don't like you, PA. The other 99% of the guys like you so those odds are favorable.

May the evil ones consistantly bet odds on stiffs.

[rokitman]

HDW gets their data from Equibase. Equibase owns TrackMaster. So one way or another the monopoly gets your money.

There are instances of people cooperating to contribute data to various projects over the internet. I've read about scientists who collect data from people who voluntarily input data about an event. The data accumulates and studies can be made.

Maybe a website could be set up where people who watch the race replays can volunteer to fill out a webform that would take the webform data and put it into a database and from that database free past performance and chart data can be extracted.

This will take a little money up front to set it up and perhaps a small regular contribution of money from users, but the money contribution could be far less than what it costs to buy commercial data.

I think this is worth exploring.

Any thoughts?

Go for it, John. They are making a market. Just like the tracks are making a market for the off-shores and exchanges with their ridiculous take-out. These morons never seem to notice that they've never really stopped anything with their short-sighted monopolistic methods, except, people's enthusiasm for the game.

If the Horseracing were running poker they would try to make the players pay for the cards. Enough of these a$$holes. Take action.