Iraq is voting

[dav4463]

Saw the voting in Iraq on the news earlier. Good news ! Democracy is spreading. Let's "give a little love" to President Bush ! Believe it or not, the world is becoming a bit safer. The terrorist network is becoming weaker.

[lsbets]

I have no doubt there will be those who will try to dimish the signifigance of what happenned today, and there will be those who will try desperatly to find a way to cast this turnout as something other than a victory for democracy. Some of those who do that might even be on this board. For me, just as I felt last January when I personally witnessed people risking their lives to vote and speaking louder with that simple action than any of the naysayers can in a lifetime, I am filled with nothing but pride at what has happenned. And I know from conversations with many of my friends and comrades both "over there" and here at home that is a sentiment shared by the overwhelming majority of those who have served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. However, our national attention span is about 5 seconds, so by next Saturday the naysayers will be beating their drums again trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. As I have said before, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that history will show the cause that too many of my friends have died for to be just and right as long as we are allowed to finish our mission.

[dav4463]

Well said !

[kenwoodallpromos]

They voted under Hussein but maybe they like doing it better now!
With dictatorship and insurgents you get butts of guns; with democratic voting you get horse's asses!LOL!!

[Tom]

61% turnout?

What was it in the USA?

SH on trila this week. Is this not a waste of time?
Hang him where his stature once stood - leave his corpse there to rot, as a reminder.

[linrom1]

Saw the voting in Iraq on the news earlier. Good news ! Democracy is spreading. Let's "give a little love" to President Bush ! Believe it or not, the world is becoming a bit safer. The terrorist network is becoming weaker.


You must be kidding. :eek: Democracy and capitalism have been turned upside down and expolited by the rich and powerful. :mad:

[boxcar]

You must be kidding. :eek: Democracy and capitalism have been turned upside down and expolited by the rich and powerful. :mad:

Hmm...another "level the playing field" advocate, no doubt. (But in all fairness to you, man will find ways to abuse any political or economic system.) Even so, our present form of government and economic system are the best in the world.

Boxcar

[linrom1]

Hmm...another "level the playing field" advocate, no doubt. (But in all fairness to you, man will find ways to abuse any political or economic system.) Even so, our present form of government and economic system are the best in the world.

Boxcar

That's an assumption and not a fact. Even in United States its is difficult to call it a Democracy when officials are elected by small voting blocks of like-minded manipulators of public opinion and perhaps even votes. The more appropirate name would be plutocracy.

[Tom]

Pluto is crazy????


Wait until Mickey sees this.....gonna be hell to pay! :p

[boxcar]

That's an assumption and not a fact. Even in United States its is difficult to call it a Democracy when officials are elected by small voting blocks of like-minded manipulators of public opinion and perhaps even votes. The more appropirate name would be plutocracy.

First of all, we don't live in pure democracy. We live in a "modifed" one, i.e. a representative democracy.

As stated previously, any form of government devised by man is imperfect and subject to abuse and misuse because of what man is.

So, how would you run things if you had your druthers?

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

we are going to SHOVE a form of government down your throat with soldiers on every corner.....Hmmm pretty OPEN MINDED ain't it???

[Tom]

we are going to SHOVE a form of government down your throat with soldiers on every corner.....Hmmm pretty OPEN MINDED ain't it???

You missed the theme of this thread - THEY are voting. THEY area deciding.
I would think it is far preferable that WE ALLOW them to start their own goveernment rather than force DICTATORSHIP on them like Sadamm did.
THEY have optioins with us. They are free to vote down this contstitution.
They are free to start over from scratch. WE are getting them on the road to freedom. THEY will ultimately decide their own fate.
Under SH, they had NO choices.
You libs really amaze me some days. You guys are so blind you cannot see your hand in front of your face.

What is YOUR solution - pack up and leave today? And then what?

[lsbets]

Not only that Tom, in most of the country THEY provided the security at the polling places and the number of attacks was 1/10th of what they were on election day in January.

[Tom]

And THEY captured the homacide bombers and prevented them exploding their bombs.

The libs just love to attack elections - first our own, now the Iraqi's. The libs just seem to agaisnt freedom everywhere. I can understand why they hate elections - they haven't won one in a long time, and no wins in the future look likely. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[schweitz]

we are going to SHOVE a form of government down your throat with soldiers on every corner.....Hmmm pretty OPEN MINDED ain't it???

Are you saying that soldiers made the populace of Iraq turn out and vote? :rolleyes:

[boxcar]

Are you saying that soldiers made the populace of Iraq turn out and vote? :rolleyes:

Yup, they forced them at gunpoint to toe the Bush line! Can't wait to see that video on CNN. :lol: :lol:


Boxcar

[dav4463]

I started the thread to see how many people would still find something wrong with spreading democracy. Some people never cease to amaze me. Once the people have choices, Iraq could be a model for other countries. There will be problems of course....they will develop liberals too !

[46zilzal]

I started the thread to see how many people would still find something wrong with spreading democracy. Some people never cease to amaze me. Once the people have choices, Iraq could be a model for other countries. There will be problems of course....they will develop liberals too !

Didn't work in Korea, didn't work in Vietnam..... when are folks going to learn? People evolve to the government THEY want, not one shoved down their throats by invading armies.

[lsbets]

Didn't work in Korea, didn't work in Vietnam..... when are folks going to learn? People evolve to the government THEY want, not one shoved down their throats by invading armies.

How about Germany and Japan? Has it worked there? Or how about Bosnia-Herzogovenia? Did it work there?

There you go making sweeping generalizations again without having a clue what you're talking about.

[schweitz]

Better check again on South Korea.

[Steve 'StatMan']

You won't know if it doesn't work for people in North Korea. The world media doesn't get free access to the citizens of North Korea. The world is treated to lots of pictures of the North Korean Army. The world sends a significant amount of Food Aid to North Korea, but it is anyones guess how much of that food is fed to the North Korean Army instead of North Korean Civilians. I will also speculate that, given the track record of most other communist countries, that a North Korean citizen who would publicly express that their Communist government isn't 'working' for their people might not see much of that food, and often their families for a long time, if ever (i.e. prison, execution).

[lsbets]

Oh come on STeve, the North Koreans just gravitated to the kind of government they really want. :confused:

[boxcar]

Oh come on STeve, the North Koreans just gravitated to the kind of government they really want. :confused:


:lol: :lol: Yup, those NKs were just dying (literally) to be oppressed.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Didn't work in Korea, didn't work in Vietnam..... when are folks going to learn? People evolve to the government THEY want, not one shoved down their throats by invading armies.

You best watch the show on PBS about Viet-damn Nam this week - the crowds of people begging to be aired out by copters when we left - to avoid the "governement of thier choice" at the city limits.
And how about those Iraqi's that wanted a governemtn to gas the to death rather than drop them in a chipper.
And that Kid in Tienemen Square whop stood in front a tank.
Those were all people who were just begging evil dictors to take them over.
What knid of a mental nut case are you?
You have the absolute audasity to say our holding free elction in Irawq is worse wfor them than the dictatorship forced on them by SH and his murderers?
You are one wacked out dude, dude.

[46zilzal]

leave people alone

[46zilzal]

Ask these poor folks if this was thier grandiose idea of giving up their lives....... FOR what? NOTHING.

Let's see what is the reason this week??

As of Monday, Oct. 17, 2005, at least 1,976 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. At least 1,533 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers. The figures include five military civilians.

The AP count is 14 higher than the Defense Department's tally,

[dav4463]

Ask these poor folks if this was thier grandiose idea of giving up their lives....... FOR what? NOTHING.

Let's see what is the reason this week??

As of Monday, Oct. 17, 2005, at least 1,976 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. At least 1,533 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers. The figures include five military civilians.

The AP count is 14 higher than the Defense Department's tally,


and MILLIONS are enjoying freedom......what's wrong with you? I know plenty of people who joined the military. They know there is a risk, but it is a risk that they are willing to take. It is a risk to buy a car...you might wreck and die, but we all buy one. I hate that even one person had to die over there, but it is a just cause.

[hcap]

This may make things worse.

http://www.juancole.com/

Juan Cole reports that the fraud is too obvious to ignore:

" Al-Hayat reports that 643,000 votes were cast in Ninevah Province (capital: Mosul). At the time it filed, 419,000 had been preliminarily counted, and the vote was running 75 percent in favor. Ninevah Province was the most likely place that Sunni Arabs opposing the constitution might be able to get a 2/3s "no" vote.

Several of my knowledgeable readers are convinced that the Ninevah voting results as reported so far look like fraud. One suspected that the Iraqi government so feared a defeat there that they over-did the ballot stuffing and ended up with an implausible result."

"The provinces affected seem largely to be in the hands of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, and it seems to me possible that SCIRI ballot counters may have been overly enthusiastic about the constitution. Personally, I think this phenomenon is a harbinger of things to come in the Dec. 15 parliamentary elections."

Juan Cole is worth reading
Extensive background in ME affairs. NON-embedded journalism
Resume:

Professional History

# 1975 B.A. History and Literature of Religions, Northwestern University
# 1978 M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo
# 1984 Ph.D. Islamic Studies, University of California Los Angeles
# 1984-1990 Assistant Professor of History, University of Michigan
# 1990-1995 Associate Professor of History, University of Michigan
# 1992-1995 Director, Center for Middle Eastern and North African Studies, University of Michigan
# 1995- Professor of History, University of Michigan


Scholastic Awards and Grants ; Hudson Research Professorship, Winter, 2003 ; Award for Research in Turkey, May, 1999, International Institute, U-M ; Research Excellence Award, College of LSA, U-M, August, 1997 ; OVPR and LSA Faculty Assistance Fund Grants, June, 1995 ; LSA Faculty Assistance Fund Grant, March 1994 ; Rackham Research Partnership, 1992-93 ; National Endowment for the Humanities, Jan.-June, 1991 ; Office of the Vice-President for Research, U-M (Pakistan), Summer 1990 ; Horace H. Rackham Faculty Grant, Egypt, Summer 1988 ; SSRC/ACLS Post-Doctoral Award, England, Summer 1986 ; Fulbright-Hays Islamic Civilization Postdoctoral Award, Egypt, 1985-86 ; SSRC/ACLS Doctoral Fellowship, Pakistan, India, UK, 1981-83 ; Fulbright-Hays Doctoral Fellowship, India, 1982

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/jcpers.htm

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Saw the voting in Iraq on the news earlier. Good news ! Democracy is spreading. Let's "give a little love" to President Bush ! Believe it or not, the world is becoming a bit safer. The terrorist network is becoming weaker.

I hope Peace and Democracy comes quickly to Iraq. I don't want our troops to die any longer and I don't want Iraqis to die any longer either. Not much is clear in Iraq, but what is clear is that they didn't attack us and they shouldn't be dying due to a war the coalition started.

I'm concerned though, because all I can do is handicap what is going on there like I would a horse race. You take what is known and what can be implied and you deduce or draw a conclusion upon the event. With a horse race, the outcome happens quickly and generally the worst it gets is that you lose your bet. Its quite a bit different handcapping Democracy with families and lives at stake.

What I do know is this:

Democracy in Iraq was only the fifth reason offered by the Administration. Initially, it was the existance of WMD's, then harboring terrorism, then it was the ouster of Hussein, then liberation and finally Democracy. If the invasion was geniunely to bring Democracy to Iraq I don't think the Pentagon would have set up the increased interrogation/torture routine at Abu Gharib. I don't think you torture a people you are trying to bring Democracy to. In my opinion the Pentagon lost the hearts and minds of the Iraqis when the abuses at Abu Gharib became known and that tells me Democracy was not objective.

Prior to the recent Iraq Constitution Referendum, the Iraqi governing body ruled that in order for the Sunni dominated Provinces to reject the Constitution, 67% of the "Registered" voters in those Provinces would have to vote "No". It was a last minute higher threshold to defeat the Constitution. (Its clearly harder to aggregate "No" votes from 67% of the Registered Voters than 67% of the Actual Voters. That told me those in power were clearly worried about the outcome in the Sunni provinces. However a day or two later the U.S. Government convinced the Iraqis to drop the threshold again to 67% of the Actual Voters. Governmental decision making is not reversed that quickly and the sudden reversal indicated to me that gurantees of approval must have been given to enable the Shiite officials to change their minds so abruptly. If election games can happen in this country, they can certainly happen with a quasi Vichy government in Iraq.

A couple days ago I read that in two of the Sunni Provinces the Constitution passed by margins of 70%-20% and 71% to 28%. Those figures were given before the votes could have been tabulated in the Provincial Election centers. They are not wired in Iraq. They can't be, the power grid is still predominantly down. These are paper ballots, so how did these election returns become almost immediately available? Another factor is that there were not three options on the ballot. It was a referendum: "Yes" or "No". How did the voting percentages add up to only 90% and 99%?

"But initial results from election officials in Ninevah and Diyala indicated about 70 percent of voters supported the charter and only 20 percent rejected.":

http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME

"In one province, Ninevah, which also has a large Kurdish population, a first tally by the province's counting center showed 326,774, or 78%, voted yes, and 90,065, or 21%, voted no, the Associated Press reported.":

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-10-16-iraq-vote_x.htm?csp=36i

There was no third option to the referendum. It was "yes" or "no". If a count was done the total should have been 100%. O.K., maybe I am splitting a single percentage point fraction in the Ninevah Province, but in the last couple days we've heard that it passed by 99% margins in other provinces and an investigation is underway for election fraud.

The conclusion is easy though. If it was a legitimate election with those kind of sweeping numbers the violence will begin to diminish. If election fraud occurred the violence will undoubtedly increase. There were vested interests arrayed that wanted to see this Constitution pass. I'll pray that it was a legitimate election, but if forced to bet, I'd have to bet it was a rigged game and the violence will increase because of it.

Iraq still doesn't have satisfactory sanitation, clean water, or electricity to keep food from spoiling, but America has a "Reported" 615,000 Barrels of Oil Per Day. At $65.00 per barrel that is $40 million dollars worth per day, $16 billion dollars worth per year:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

Note the sudden decline of Iraqi Oil Imports from July to August. Trusting that decline is true, the figures I just quoted were based upon the higher import values of July. My suspicion is that the Oil is not fully metered, but that is another matter.

CtC

[Tom]

So 46, you supported SH's regieme?

I mean, "leave people alone" would suggest you mean leave dictators alone.
You say you supported WWII, but shouldn't we have left the Nazi's alone?
THEY didn't attack us, they posed no real threat to our shores, we entered Europe with no exit strategy and spent trillions of dollars, lost millioins- not hundreds-millions of lives. Yet you supported that war. What is the difference?
How was Hitler different from SH?

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

So 46, you supported SH's regieme?

I mean, "leave people alone" would suggest you mean leave dictators alone.

Hmmmm...Depends upon if the Dictator is attacking and WHO he is attacking doesnt it?

You're not saying Dictatorship is an invalid form of government are you?


You say you supported WWII, but shouldn't we have left the Nazi's alone?
THEY didn't attack us, they posed no real threat to our shores, we entered Europe with no exit strategy and spent trillions of dollars, lost millioins- not hundreds-millions of lives. Yet you supported that war. What is the difference?

Not Exactly. Germany declared War upon the United States on December 11th, 1941. Germany was essentially in possession of most of Europe when the United States LEGALLY intervened. We intervened to free those occupied nations and destroy the invading German Army and I stress the word "Legally". The exit strategy was to conquer Fascism in Germany and Restore the Democracy that had been overthrown. The people had a Democratic history.

The Iraqi people never established a Democracy upon their own. The "Coalition" decided they needed one. Thats not even considering the fact that they were not a belligerent when the Coalition attacked and had not attacked nor declared War upon the United States.

How was Hitler different from SH?

You're kidding right? Have a Banana.

CtC

[dav4463]

"Democracy in Iraq was only the fifth reason offered by the Administration. Initially, it was the existance of WMD's, then harboring terrorism, then it was the ouster of Hussein, then liberation and finally Democracy."


Existence of WMD's: Do you really think Hussein was not planning a nuclear program?

Harboring terrorism: 3/4 of Al Queda captured or killed, Iraq is not a safe haven for terrorists anymore.

Ouster of Hussein: Had to be done in order to insure liberation and a democracy.

[GameTheory]

Hmmmm...Depends upon if the Dictator is attacking and WHO he is attacking doesnt it?

You're not saying Dictatorship is an invalid form of government are you?
I would say that. To me, freedom is not optional. You can't ask a non-free man if he would like to be free, because a non-free man is not free to speak his mind. I would have no problem whatsoever with knocking out dictatorships simply because they are dictatorships. A benevolent monarchy I can live with, but totalitarian dictatorships? Not allowed as far I'm concerned. Inaliable rights given to all men and all that...

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

"Democracy in Iraq was only the fifth reason offered by the Administration. Initially, it was the existance of WMD's, then harboring terrorism, then it was the ouster of Hussein, then liberation and finally Democracy."


Existence of WMD's: Do you really think Hussein was not planning a nuclear program?

Harboring terrorism: 3/4 of Al Queda captured or killed, Iraq is not a safe haven for terrorists anymore.

Ouster of Hussein: Had to be done in order to insure liberation and a democracy.

Lets assume the three points you raised are true. There's reams of evidence to show both the implied premises and conclusions are invalid, but for the sake of argument lets say those points are accurate.

Whats clear in considering those points is that the U.S. leaders withheld the truth from Americans, fabricated some reasons to convince the populace to support the war and engaged in a comprehensive scheme to prevent the truth regarding the miss-justifications for the war from being revealed.

Do those things justify what has been accomplished in Iraq? Or rather, "Knowing what we know now, who in their right mind would do it again?"

Dubya has stated he would invade Iraq again knowing all the reasons were empty. Thats the part America should be afraid of and the part the Country needs to correct.

but totalitarian dictatorships? Not allowed as far I'm concerned. Inaliable rights given to all men and all that...

All one can say is that you need to apply for a job with Dubya in D.C. You'll fit right in and theres about to be several openings.

CtC

[GameTheory]

All one can say is that you need to apply for a job with Dubya in D.C. You'll fit right in and theres about to be several openings.While you might consider applying for a position in Fidel Castro's government as you would fit in there quite well.

By the way, what was your previous user name here on PA?

[Kreed]

"I would have no problem whatsoever with knocking out dictatotships..."
YEAH sure, as long as your old ass is back here at home, typing no-nothings
in your silk pajamas.

[GameTheory]

"I would have no problem whatsoever with knocking out dictatotships..."
YEAH sure, as long as your old ass is back here at home, typing no-nothings
in your silk pajamas.Old? I'm in my 30's. That's not old nowadays, is it? And I don't own any pajamas.

But anyway, I didn't say we SHOULD go knock out dictatorships every chance we get -- there are other practical considerations. There is possible risk to soldiers, we've got to replace the government, etc etc. But do I consider a totalitarian dictatorship a *legitimate* form of government? Hell no.

[lsbets]

By the way, what was your previous user name here on PA?

:lol: :lol: :lol: I knew someone would be asking that pretty soon.

[JustRalph]

"I would have no problem whatsoever with knocking out dictatotships..."
YEAH sure, as long as your old ass is back here at home, typing no-nothings
in your silk pajamas.

Derek....I expect you will be posting your war making credentials soon huh?

What would it take to get you in the battle huh Derek? Somebody attacking the Hamptons and breaking your favorite wine glass ?

[lsbets]

Derek....I expect you will be posting your war making credentials soon huh?

What would it take to get you in the battle huh Derek? Somebody attacking the Hamptons and breaking you favorite wine glass ?

Or somebody stealing his leather pants and auctioning them on e-bay? :lol:

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

All one can say is that you need to apply for a job with Dubya in D.C. You'll fit right in and theres about to be several openings.


While you might consider applying for a position in Fidel Castro's government as you would fit in there quite well.

By the way, what was your previous user name here on PA?

Apparently, you interpreted identification with the Dubya cabinet as an insult because you turned around and questioned my Patriotism, though I can understand how even a Patriot would not want to be identified with Dubya's folks right now.

If you read the following quote, I'm sure you'll attribute it to Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz or any number of other current White House occupants. They didn't state it however. If you Google the text, it's "author" and the circumstances of the statement should give one pause:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

You're in good company with that technique.

CtC

[boxcar]

By the way, what was your previous user name here on PA?

I'm guessing Equineer. Wrtiting styles appear to be very similar. Maybe we should take a poll. :D

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Only problem is that Equineer is still a valid, working user name....it was never kicked off or banned....of course, that doesn't invalidate the current hypothesis one bit...LOL

[lsbets]

You know, some might say there is an odd VS obsession here. Kind of like the PA board's boogeyman (or woman). How's this for a PA conspiracy? Once people started speculating about DrugS, he disappeared, and suddenly Chuckie shows up and goes after GT like no one since, well, you know who. :eek:

[GameTheory]

You know, some might say there is an odd VS obsession here. Kind of like the PA board's boogeyman (or woman). How's this for a PA conspiracy? Once people started speculating about DrugS, he disappeared, and suddenly Chuckie shows up and goes after GT like no one since, well, you know who. :eek:I don't think it's Vetquineer. Style not quite right. Closer to Lindsay/Lance (who has an obsession with Tom, and seems to migrate here in autumn), or dare I say it, Amazin.

[lsbets]

I don't think it's Vetquineer. Style not quite right. Closer to Lindsay/Lance (who has an obsession with Tom, and seems to migrate here in autumn), or dare I say it, Amazin.

Someone would have to fall really far off the cliff before I would think Amazin. I agree that they style is not quite right for vs, but that could be revealed in later posts. PA - does the council have an opinion on the identity of this person? :D

[Steve 'StatMan']

I too was thinking we'd 'seen' Chuckes The Clown without the makeup.

Admittedly, if the 'reputation icons' were to come back, it might serve one well to have 2 ID's, one for the Off-Topic political arguments, and the other for normal handicapping discussions.

[PaceAdvantage]

DrugS disappeared?

[lsbets]

DrugS disappeared?

For a couple of days, he's back now - like I said, it was a conspiracy theory - posting from behind the grassy knoll :D

[46zilzal]

(BBC News) -- Two Sunni-dominated provinces in Iraq have rejected the country's draft constitution, according to partial results given by election officials.

Electoral rules mean the document will fail if three out of the 18 provinces vote "No" by two-thirds or more.

Salahuddin and Anbar both heavily voted against but Diyala, also Sunni, has backed the charter.

Now all eyes are on the largely Sunni province of Nineveh where the result is due to be announced within two days.

The BBC's Jim Muir reports from Baghdad that the referendum has turned into something of a cliff-hanger.

[Tom]

So, unlike the elections held under Sodamn Insane, this one appears to be on the up and up. :jump:

Progress is a wonderful thing.
Thanks for sharing good news.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

and more and more and more and more for what??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

[PaceAdvantage]

Is 2000 supposed to be some sort of milestone you guys were waiting for with baited breath? Is 2000 all that much different than 1900, or even 1?

[PaceAdvantage]

and more and more and more and more for what??

For what? An established military presence in the Middle East for one. That's huge.

Is it worth 2000 American lives? We'll see....

[46zilzal]

For what? An established military presence in the Middle East for one. That's huge.

Is it worth 2000 American lives? We'll see.... Yes, let's KICK around some more folks rather than letting them live their lives

[Tom]

Yes, let's KICK around some more folks rather than letting them live their lives

Like they lived thier lives under Sadaam? No choice, a brutal, murdering dictator, gassed his own people,murdered olympic atheletes for losing.....boy, you got on sick idea of what that means.

BTW, it PASSED!

BTW, why is it nobody ever keeps broadcasting how many insurgents and terrorists we have killed? 2000 is just one more example of how sick and worthless the American press really is. Over 1300 in one month in 2004.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/memorial/20040430-1234-apriltoll-iraq.html

And more recently....
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/102405C.shtml

"A surge in enemy activity this year has generated a corresponding increase in offensives by U.S. and Iraqi forces - and a rise in the number of U.S. military statements containing numbers of enemy killed.
High-ranking commanders also have contributed to the trend. In January, Army Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. officer in Iraq, said U.S. and Iraqi forces had killed or captured 15,000 people last year. In May, Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, then-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, mentioned the killing of 250 of insurgent leader Abu Musab Zarqawi's "closest lieutenants" as evidence of progress in Iraq."


They spent the whole week celerating 2000 brave soldiers giving thier lives for freedom and projecting indictments that did not occurr.