Poll - Rove/Bush/pre-war intelligence

[highnote]

Karl Rove made his fourth Grand Jury appearance today to discuss the CIA Leak Probe. The leak of the CIA agent is seen by some as a declaration of war on a former ambassador who was the husband of the outed agent. The former ambassador, Joseph Wilson, made statements that the Bush administration had twisted prewar intelligence on Iraq.

Do you think the Bush administration manipulated intelligence about the existence of weapons of mass destruction to exaggerate the Iraqi threat?

[Lefty]

Wilson and his wife are ridiculous.

[wes]

CIA Leak


How could there have been a leak? They had nothing to leak.

wes


No Bush did not exaggerate any thing. Sadam was the one doing all the exaggerations. The USA failed to prove it.

[highnote]

CIA Leak

How could there have been a leak? They had nothing to leak.

wes

Wes,
You are correct. The CIA did not leak anything. But the question is not about the CIA it's about Karl Rove doing the leaking.

The Special Prosecutor is alleging that Karl Rove leaked the name of a CIA agent to the press as a vendetta because the husband of the CIA agent was critical of Bush for "allegedly" exaggerating Iraqi intelligence so that the admin could get the go ahead for an invasion.

[PaceAdvantage]

I voted yes, in case anyone is wondering. EVERY administration is going try to make the facts look better to suit their needs...

[highnote]

I haven't voted yet because I don't know. But I am leaning toward voting yes for the very same reason. You wouldn't expect a salesman to point out all the negative features of his product. I suppose it's the same thing with a president's agenda.

One could argue that there is a lot more at stake when selling a war than there is selling a product. But maybe that's for a different thread.

[DrugSalvastore]

Anyone who would vote No to that question is biased beyond repair.

Iraq had no navy, no air force, and a badly depleted joke of an army.

Anyone with a shred of common sense has to know that a country wouldn't get themselves WMD and actually consider using them---if they didn't have the military capability to defend themselves and their land.

I think the boy scouts could have successfuly occupied (or liberated) Iraq. Do people really think that a tin-foil coward of a dictator like Suddam wanted anything to do with any kind of military confrontation?? Let alone one with the mighty U.S.--who obliterated his army when it was 8 times stronger than it was at the start of this war.

The Democratic party is a big collection of hopeless imbeciles---so it's not like you could have counted on them to expose the massive fraud, and outrageous lies, of this specific war.

Four plus years ago, a notorious and very dangerous guy named Osama pulled off another one of his spectacular killing stunts. He (ObL) thinks the only way he can personally destroy us, is by drowning us in debt, and he badly wants us in Iraq. As soon as we withdrawl from Iraq, we will get hit with another spectacular killing stunt of his, one which I'm sure is already planned and ready. He's fighting a war against our economy and as he says, the key to victory is to drown us in debt.

Anyone with common sense would have waited till bin Laden was captured, before pulling off this "liberating countries" nonsense. The problem I have with the Iraq war is simple---you can't ignore the dangerous threat of ObL, and instead focus on spreading domocracy. We will hear from Osama again, and we will hear from him once he needs to bait us into spending more money. The bastered thinks he, and his fellow rebels are the lone reason the Soviet Union went bankrupt---and now he wants to be the lone reason why the United States goes bankrupt.

As he once said, he feels he will go down as the guy who bankrupted both Communism and Capitalism. The sick basterd is very clever, but obviously in an evil way.

[Lefty]

drugranted:Anyone who would vote No to that question is biased beyond repair.

Iraq had no navy, no air force, and a badly depleted joke of an army

I didn't know the poll was about Iraq. I thght it was about Rove. Maybe you are on drugs, but it's YOU who is certainly biased.

[Lefty]

swety wrote: The Special Prosecutor is alleging that Karl Rove leaked the name of a CIA agent to the press as a vendetta because the husband of the CIA agent was critical of Bush for "allegedly" exaggerating Iraqi intelligence so that the admin could get the go ahead for an invasion.

I don't think he has alledged any such thing. A while back he even said Rove was not the Focus of this investigation.

[highnote]

swety wrote: The Special Prosecutor is alleging that Karl Rove leaked the name of a CIA agent to the press as a vendetta because the husband of the CIA agent was critical of Bush for "allegedly" exaggerating Iraqi intelligence so that the admin could get the go ahead for an invasion.

I don't think he has alledged any such thing. A while back he even said Rove was not the Focus of this investigation.

The Focus of this investigation is to find out who leaked the name of the CIA agent.

From the Chicago Sun Times: The White House denials of Rove's and Libby's involvement collapsed three months ago, when Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper testified that Rove had been one of his sources for a story that identified Wilson's wife. Libby was another of Cooper's sources for the story..."


So, Lefty, you're right. He's not alleging... it seems that the prosecutre knows Rove leaked the info. Now the question is, "What will Rove be charged with?"

[schweitz]

Now the question is, "What will Rove be charged with?"

Really? So you know he is going to be charged with something---must be great to have it all figured out. I think I'll wait and see if he is actually charged with anything and if he is charged if he is actually found guilty of anything. I think thats the way our system works.

[highnote]

Really? So you know he is going to be charged with something---must be great to have it all figured out. I think I'll wait and see if he is actually charged with anything and if he is charged if he is actually found guilty of anything. I think thats the way our system works.


OK OK OK Thanks for keeping me honest. No wonder Bush never speaks off the cuff; only uses a teleprompter; rehearses answers to troops at teleconferences. One wrong word and everyone would be all over him. :D

From AP: "Prosecutors had warned Rove before his latest grand jury appearance that there was no guarantee he would not be indicted. The grand jury's term is due to expire Oct. 28.

Until three months ago, the White House had denied that Rove and Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, were involved in leaking the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame in 2003.

The White House denials gave way to "no comments" following revelations in July that Rove and Libby had been sources for Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper in a story that identified Plame, the wife of Bush administration critic and former U.S. Ambassador Joseph Wilson."

So it seems that the purpose of the grand jury is to see if any laws were broken and if they were then to determine the charges.

Is that correct?

[schweitz]

So it seems that the purpose of the grand jury is to see if any laws were broken and if they were then to determine the charges.

Is that correct?

I would add that if there are charges it would also be determined who they are going to charge.

[Lefty]

My bet is Rove won't be charged with anything.

[highnote]

I would add that if there are charges it would also be determined who they are going to charge.

Right. You wouldn't bring charges against no one. :D

[highnote]

My bet is Rove won't be charged with anything.


Sounds like a good poll question.

[schweitz]

Right. You wouldn't bring charges against no one. :D


My point is that you seem to assume its about Rove---I'm not making that assumption.

[highnote]

My point is that you seem to assume its about Rove---I'm not making that assumption.

No. I agree with you. Rove is being questioned. Some of the journalists said it was Rove who outed the CIA agent. But I think the prosecutor is trying to get all the details. Whether Rove will be charged or not, I don't know.

[highnote]

I voted YES. I wasn't sure how I was going to vote until I read PA's post about how every admin trys to make the facts look better to suit their needs.

This raises an interesting question. Is "making the facts look better" considered lying? Is "making the facts look better" still telling the truth.

As an amateur scientist I am always searching for the truth. If I use that as my guideline then "making the facts look better" is not the truth. The truth is what it is -- not what we'd like it to be; not something different than what it is; not something better or worse than what it is.

Now, there is the factor of politics to consider. Sometimes deception is a weapon. However, if the citizens of your own country are deceived then that is different than deceiving your enemy. Maybe a better tactic is not to say anything and find a different approach.

It's kind of like buying a used car. The salesman tells you what a great car it is -- low mileage -- only driven by a little old lady. Then you find out the odometer has been turned back. The salesman made it look good, but it wasn't the truth. Not a great analogy, I know.

I remember working on a video with the CEO of GTE -- Chuck Lee. Someone asked him to do a little parody about the stock price going to $70 per share (it was at about $35 at the time and doing very well). He wouldn't do it. He said one of the things he does not exaggerate is the stock price. His feeling was that he does not want to give anyone the wrong impression or be overly optimistic. It is what it is.

If the Bush admin exaggerated the WMD threat by Iraq, it was wrong. It looks to me like they did. But it's kind of a moot point becaue Bush is a lame duck president. It could have some bearing on the next Republican candidate's chances -- the same way the Lewinsky bj had an affect of Gore's chances.

We'll see.

[DrugSalvastore]

I didn't know the poll was about Iraq. I thght it was about Rove. Maybe you are on drugs, but it's YOU who is certainly biased.

And maybe you're a little bitch.

Who or what am I biased to? I love how people say something unbelievably idiotic like that...and feel no need to explain.

As for the poll "not being about Iraq" as you say....here is exact poll question again dumbass.

'Do you think the Bush admin manipulated intelligence about the existence of WMD?'

#1. Karl Rove isn't mentioned anywhere in the poll question.

#2. What freaking country do you think is being talked about when they refer to "the existence of WMD" ?????

Why are people around here all of sudden so eager to start nonsense with me?? This is getting pretty damn ridiculous!! Is this Lefty guy actually being serious? If not, and he's clowning, than I apologize to him.

[Tom]

Of courese they did.

Does GM manipulate stats to sell cars?
Does not all advertising spin facts towards themselves?

Did Clinton manipulate the truth to save his sorry ass when he disgraced the office of the president?

Ever see the advertising campaign during WWII - depicting the japs as non-human? The krauts as baby killers (well, they were!) The widespread use of jap and kraut in the press and movies? You want to tell your soldiers to go kill a family man with three kids and a wife or tell them to go blast some japs?

Ever go on a job interview? Tell you potential boss your goal in life was to do as little as possible and get paid for it?

[Lefty]

drugssal retorts: And maybe you're a little bitch.

Who or what am I biased to? I love how people say something unbelievably idiotic like that...and feel no


drugsal, You can dish it but can't take it, I see. Tou're the one that said everyone was biased if they saifd no to the q. But when shoe is on other foot you shriek like a little girl. Maybe i'm insulting the lil girl....

I did get the polls mixed up, so I was in error there.
Have a nice day, take your tums or rolaids like you Bush haters must hafta do.

[Lefty]

drugsywrote: Anyone who would vote No to that question is biased beyond repair.


And when I suggested he might be the one with a bias he got bent all outta shape. Tsk, tsk. I said he screamed like a little girl. Since the handle could be male or female, maybe it IS a lil girl

[Tom]

Maybe a familiar "girl" at that! ;)

[chickenhead]

is he now another vs suspect? he doesn't sound like her at all, from the posts I've read.... I'm sorry I missed her, must have been a pretty epic poster to still have you guys looking over your shoulders.

btw Did equineer get booted or just fade away?

[lsbets]

btw Did equineer get booted or just fade away?

I think there is little doubt that equineer and vs were one and the same, and I think there is little doubt that same individual will not stay away from here for long, if he/she is not back already.

[chickenhead]

right, but seems like a stretch to finger Drugs for that. Falconridge or Totemaster types...(FR, not comparing you to TM don't be offended)....but Drugs?

[hcap]

Out of all the thousands who visit or are members of PA, 28 so far have actually voted in this poll. Maybe the next poll should be "On which hand does Michael Jackson wear a white glove?"

[boxcar]

Maybe a familiar "girl" at that! ;)

Or a "girly man" to borrow da Terminator's phrase. :D

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Lefty is of the belief that Bush and his gang WALK ON WATER...Don't try anything akin to LOGIC on him, it is a wasted exercise.

[boxcar]

Lefty is of the belief that Bush and his gang WALK ON WATER...Don't try anything akin to LOGIC on him, it is a wasted exercise.

And here we conservatives have been thinking all along that it was you Libs who believed that all libs "WALK ON WATER" and can never do any wrong, and have all the answers to the world's problems. Wonder what could have influenced us to think this way? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Tom]

Lefty is solid in his beliefs.

You libs are the exact opposite - you look for reasons to blame Bush for everything under the sun.

Tell me the difference, other than point of view.

You try to insult Lefty by pointing at yourself.

I'll tell you one thing, Lefty is the guy you want to depend on no matter what.:ThmbUp:

You dishrag philosophers are the wishy washy wimps.

[highnote]

You dishrag philosophers are the wishy washy wimps.


Hey. I resemble that remark!

[Tom]

Not you, John...the regular "let''s attack Lefty" crowd.

YOU have a thought process and make decisions based on your interpretation of facts. Several here area more parrot than man. You post opinions, not drivel.
I respect people that do not agree with me, but some here have an agenda other than discussion.

[46zilzal]

You know what really weakens just about every arugument? It is the CONSTANT injection of LIB characterization rather than a simple debate of ideological differences. I talk to folks all the time who have different ideas than I do. I just relegate them to having a different point of view ON THAT ISSUE and leave at that. BUT here ANY DIFFERENCE to the hard line point of view gets FIRST characterized as LIB before a thing is addressed in the content of the idea....WEAK or PRE-judged???

[lsbets]

You know what really weakens just about every arugument? It is the CONSTANT injection of LIB characterization rather than a simple debate of ideological differences. I talk to folks all the time who have different ideas than I do. I just relegate them to having a different point of view ON THAT ISSUE and leave at that. BUT here ANY DIFFERENCE to the hard line point of view gets FIRST characterized as LIB before a thing is addressed in the content of the idea....WEAK or PRE-judged???

I guess that's wrong, but characterizing folks as "bible-thumpers" or "flag wavers" is okay? When others do it there is something wrong with it, but when you do it everything is okay, right?

[46zilzal]

VERY specific discussion about very specifc folks NOT a pigeon hole for EVERYTHING.

[lsbets]

VERY specific discussion about very specifc folks NOT a pigeon hole for EVERYTHING.

Really, I never would have guessed you were specific in your posts. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you pigeonhole as much if not more than anyone here.

[highnote]

Not you, John...the regular "let''s attack Lefty" crowd.

I was joking. :kiss:


YOU have a thought process and make decisions based on your interpretation of facts.

Thank you. But I doubt I resemble that remark. :D

Several here area more parrot than man.

Definately not me. I'm more gumbo than Prada. :lol:

[Tom]

Hole, yes.

Pidgeon, no.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[highnote]

Hole, yes.

Pidgeon, no.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


That one went right over my head. :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

is he now another vs suspect? he doesn't sound like her at all, from the posts I've read.... I'm sorry I missed her, must have been a pretty epic poster to still have you guys looking over your shoulders.

btw Did equineer get booted or just fade away?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....interesting that more than one person here has come to similar conclusions....

And BTW, Equineer did not get the boot.....still a member in good (cough cough) standing....

[hcap]

Well I guess since clinton got sued for screwing around, why not bush?

" In an interview yesterday, Wilson said that once the criminal questions are settled, he and his wife may file a civil lawsuit against Bush, Cheney and others seeking damages for the alleged harm done to Plame's career.

If they do so, the current state of the law makes it likely that the suit will be allowed to proceed -- and Bush and Cheney will face questioning under oath -- while they are in office. The reason for that is a unanimous 1997 U.S. Supreme Court decision ruling that Paula Jones' sexual harassment suit against then-President Bill Clinton could go forward immediately, a decision that was hailed by conservatives at the time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aSuj1d8CcYAk&refer=top_world_news

[PaceAdvantage]

As Bush once said himself, "Bring it on...."

[lsbets]

Shouldn't she be suing her husband? Because it certainly seems he did more harm to her career than anyone else.

[Lefty]

:rolleyes:
46, logic is not lost on me but you and lbj's ramblings certainly are. Here's some logic for ya: Rove has not been charged with anything. A month or so ago, the prosecutor said Rove was not a target of his investigation.

[hcap]

Even if Wilson loses his possible lawsuit against bush, ya think being sued and winning is GOOD for bush? Considering the multiple scandals, bushs' 29% approval rate and 65%+ of americans against the war, a lawsuit is only gonna make an already lame duck lamer. Duck soup time.

Now here's why bush should really be sued. Of course impeachment would be better.....

"A Strategy of Lies: How the White House Fed the Public a Steady Diet of Falsehoods"

The 56-page investigation was assembled by USAF Colonel (Ret.) Sam Gardiner. "Truth from These Podia: Summary of a Study of Strategic Influence, Perception Management, Strategic Information Warfare and Strategic Psychological Operations in Gulf II" identifies more than 50 stories about the Iraq war that were faked by government propaganda artists in a covert campaign to "market" the military invasion of Iraq.

Gardiner has credentials. He has taught at the National War College, the Air War College and the Naval Warfare College and was a visiting scholar at the Swedish Defense College.

According to Gardiner, "It was not bad intelligence" that lead to the quagmire in Iraq, "It was an orchestrated effort [that] began before the war" that was designed to mislead the public and the world. Gardiner's research lead him to conclude that the US and Britain had conspired at the highest levels to plant "stories of strategic influence" that were known to be false.

http://www.earthisland.org/project/newsPage2.cfm?newsID=491&pageID=177&subSiteID=44

[hcap]

http://www.rense.com/general68/expand.htm

"It has also been revealed that New York Times reporter Judith Miller was granted a Secret Department of Defense clearance while she was embedded with a U.S. military unit in Iraq searching for weapons of mass destruction (weapons that were non-existent). Although the identification of Joseph Wilson's wife as a CIA agent (contained in a State Department memorandum carried aboard Air Force One on a trip to Africa in July 2003) was classified Secret, Miller would not have had a need to know for that information.

CIA Leakgate may be part of a larger intelligence war between the CIA and Pentagon. Miller's status as a security cleared Defense Department embedded reporter adds to the mix of intrigue

[hcap]

A lot of news this morning. Ok, the NY Daily News is not the most reliable source, but if this is true, it could shed some light on what's happening.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/New_York_Daily_News_to_claim_1017.html

"The case of outed CIA agent Valerie Plame is set to explode.

The New York Daily News is set to report in Tuesday editions that a well-placed source interviewed by the newspaper believes a senior White House official has flipped and may be helping the prosecutor in the case, RAW STORY has learned."

[ljb]

Just heard Cheney will step down and Bush will appoint Condi Rice to fill out term. :eek:
I can see it now Condi vs. Hillary, what are all those misogynists gonna do ? ;)

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

I Voted "Yes-Bush manipulated the intelligence to invade Iraq"

However, I've known that since before the 2004 November Election and voted against Bush because of it, despite having supported him in 2000. Unfortunately, the truth about Iraq was hidden from most of America by "Spin" and the bulk of the Nation is only now waking up to the truth. Thats understandable though, Americans don't expect their leaders to mislead them.

The CIA went to the Justice Department with the complaint. That speaks volumes about the nature of Palme's assignment.

For quite some time, I've believed this has the potential to harken the Nation back thirty years. This is very serious.

CtC

Karl Rove made his fourth Grand Jury appearance today to discuss the CIA Leak Probe. The leak of the CIA agent is seen by some as a declaration of war on a former ambassador who was the husband of the outed agent. The former ambassador, Joseph Wilson, made statements that the Bush administration had twisted prewar intelligence on Iraq.

Do you think the Bush administration manipulated intelligence about the existence of weapons of mass destruction to exaggerate the Iraqi threat?

[lsbets]

Hcap - did you read the article in the Chicage Suntimes about the terrorist who alleges he was tortured by the Israelis until he confessed? What is interesting about this are some of the players involved. The guy is being prosecuted by Patrick Fitzgerald, and the judge will throw the case out if the defense convinces him the confession came as the result of torture, even at the hands of a foreign government. There was a reporter who witnessed the interrogation and could probably help the government's case (and Fitzgerald) if the reporter were to testify that there was no torture involved. However, the reporter might have a little beef with Fitzgerald, so who knows if she would be willing to help him out. Her name? Judith Miller. How is that for irony? He throws her in jail in one case, and now he needs her for another case.

[hcap]

I just read it. Yeah it is ironic. But the larger issue is-

Why was miller allowed to witness this?

Security clearance? Curious that she seems to be in the middle of all sorts of things. I think she is doing an admirable job carrying water for the administration. From Chalabi to oil for food to libby and bolton and now being allowed in on interrogation

Judy, otherwise known as "judy kneepads"

Meanwhile back at the ranch. From Larry C. Johnson
Mr. Johnson, who worked previously with the Central Intelligence Agency and U.S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, and I believe a classmate of Plame at the CIA...

http://noquarter.typepad.com/

"Had lunch today with a person who has a direct tie to one of the folks facing indictment in the Plame affair. There are 22 files that Fitzgerald is looking at for potential indictment . These include Stephen Hadley, Karl Rove, Lewis Libby, Dick Cheney, and Mary Matalin (there are others of course). Hadley has told friends he expects to be indicted. No wonder folks are nervous at the White House."

One final question Ls, you haven't voted yet. Do I detect I slight shift in your support for the bushies? Also considering the Iraq war is and was the most highly debated issue on this board, why have only 34 of us have voted?

[hcap]

More on millers carrying water for the administration

Times reporter entangled in leak case had unusual relationship with military, Iraqi group

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Judith_Miller_acted_as_middleman_between_1018.html

"Embattled New York Times reporter Judith Miller acted as a “middleman” between an American military unit and the Iraqi National Congress while she was embedded with the U.S. armed forces searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in April 2003"

....Consider the evidence.

“More than a half-dozen military officers said that Miller acted as a middleman between the Army unit with which she was embedded and Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmed Chalabi, on one occasion accompanying Army officers to Chalabi's headquarters, where they took custody of Saddam Hussein's son-in-law,” the Post reported. “She also sat in on the initial debriefing of the son-in-law, these sources say.”

Miller’s intimate role with the MET Alpha nearly endangered the mission, according to several soldiers.

"This was totally out of their lane, getting involved with human intelligence," according to one military interviewed by the Post. "This woman came in with a plan. She was leading them. . . . She ended up almost hijacking the mission."

[hcap]

Ls check this out. Tell me please what is going on?

http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002423.html

This is what Judy Miller told Steve Kroft of "60 Minutes," on March 10, 1996:

KROFT: (Voiceover) Even the Israelis acknowledge that most of the evidence against [Hamas leader Mousa] Abu Marzook comes from the interrogation of Muhammad Salah. And last November he retracted his confession. Salah said he had been struck repeatedly, forced to lie on a cold floor, deprived of sleep and that his family was threatened with violence unless he confirmed the allegations against Marzook. But one person who is skeptical of the torture story is Judith Miller, a New York Times reporter who has spent the past four years writing a book--out next month--about Hamas and other Islamic militant groups. In 1993, she was allowed to witness on closed-circuit television just one of nine interrogation sessions the Israelis conducted with Salah.

[lsbets]

One final question Ls, you haven't voted yet. Do I detect I slight shift in your support for the bushies? Also considering the Iraq war is and was the most highly debated issue on this board, why have only 34 of us have voted?

Why haven't I voted? Simple - given the question at hand, I think my answer would be too easily misconstued to mean something it doesn't. That's why I don't like polls of any kind. Any time any raw data is gathered together and analyzed its been manipulated in some form. When you read a newspaper article the data has been manipulated. However, I think (but I am not sure) the question was aimed at intent. Since 1996, I have seen too many intel estimates of Iraqi capabilities and intent to think that the issue of WMDs was something new with Bush. WMDs played a major role in our contingency plans for how to deal with Hussein when Clinton was commander in chief. If they question were "was the data manipulated with intent to deceive" I would have answered.

Let's play hypothetical for a minute. Lets say that Rove gets indicted for perjury because in the 4 times he testified his story shifted. Do you feel that proves anything? His defense would surely be that anyone who is grilled over and over again might remember new details when they come back, and he volunteered to return because he remembered new details. I think it would be awfully hard to get a jury to convict on that basis. So, you would have your indictment, but Rove would not have been indicted for anything related to the not so undercover agent Ms. Plame. Would you still be overjoyed, simply because Rove is someone you don't like?

[lsbets]

The whole situation is rather odd - starting with Joe Wilson's false statements about his trip right down to whatever happens today. However, in my experience, it is not unusual at all for a reporter to be granted a security clearance if they are going to be around classified information. They also have to sign an agreement not to publish any classified information they may be exposed to. I know the CNN producer who was embedded with me had a clearance, and he needed it. He would not have had the access he did if he didn't have a clearance. I would bet that most, if not all of the reporters permitted to embed with a unit undergo some type of background check to at least get them a Secret clearance.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

I've always attributed Jack Wilson's less than straighforward answers to involve the fact his wife (Plame) has no CIA clearance to share information with him regarding the details of CIA work, but in all likelihood did. He couldnt say "My Wife Told Me", or she'd be relieved of duty.

Its clear to me the CIA knows these spousal confidences occur, but if the spouses keep the confidence and guard the source, theres not much that can or should be done.

What is more important, determining why a CIA agent was outted who was working upon restricting world wide WMD's or determining why her husband was so outraged she was outted?

CtC


The whole situation is rather odd - starting with Joe Wilson's false statements about his trip right down to whatever happens today. However, in my experience, it is not unusual at all for a reporter to be granted a security clearance if they are going to be around classified information. They also have to sign an agreement not to publish any classified information they may be exposed to. I know the CNN producer who was embedded with me had a clearance, and he needed it. He would not have had the access he did if he didn't have a clearance. I would bet that most, if not all of the reporters permitted to embed with a unit undergo some type of background check to at least get them a Secret clearance.

[lsbets]

I've always attributed Jack Wilson's less than straighforward answers to involve the fact his wife (Plame) has no CIA clearance to share information with him regarding the details of CIA work, but in all likelihood did. He couldnt say "My Wife Told Me", or she'd be relieved of duty.

Its clear to me the CIA knows these spousal confidences occur, but if the spouses keep the confidence and guard the source, theres not much that can or should be done.



If someone with a security clearance were to share any of that information with their spouse, that person should be fired immediatly. It is not clear to me that happens, nor do I expect it to. I speak from personal experience. In the course of my duties, both on the reserve and active side, I come across information that may or may not be classified. I never discuss any of that information with my wife and she knows that I won't. Understanding that, she never asks me any questions that might delve into operational details. She got tired of hearing "can't tell you that" and I got tired of the "I'm your wife" look. So to say that it happens and is acceptable is wrong and naive. It should not happen, and more often than not doesn't happen.

On the other issue, if there was an "outing" and it still not clear there was one, it is also not clear who did the "outing". A lot of evidence points to Joe Wilson as being the one who might have puclicly exposed his wife's identity, which has been well established as not being very much of a secret anyway, at least in Washington.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

If someone with a security clearance were to share any of that information with their spouse, that person should be fired immediatly.

Precisely, but that has to be proven. When this is over, if they want to go after Plame for sharing information with her husband, I suppose they can. They'll ask Wilson, "How did you know about the Forged Yellowcake Documents before the info was released by the CIA?"....he'll say: "I misspoke as to the timing of when I knew" or that he picked it up in "conversations somewhere other than with his wife."

It is not clear to me that happens, nor do I expect it to. I speak from personal experience. In the course of my duties, both on the reserve and active side, I come across information that may or may not be classified. I never discuss any of that information with my wife and she knows that I won't. Understanding that, she never asks me any questions that might delve into operational details. She got tired of hearing "can't tell you that" and I got tired of the "I'm your wife" look. So to say that it happens and is acceptable is wrong and naive. It should not happen, and more often than not doesn't happen.

Don't think you can lose track of the fact that Plame and Wilson are not your typical CIA employee and spouse. Many times in the CIA the spouse is probably a housewife or a bulldozer driver. Plame recommended Wilson for the Niger Yellowcake Investigation assignment. They clearly are a international affairs power couple. Still, she probably shouldn't have shared some information and he has used care to not reveal confidences. If the White House had been so careful there would be no Grand Jury.

On the other issue, if there was an "outing" and it still not clear there was one, it is also not clear who did the "outing". A lot of evidence points to Joe Wilson as being the one who might have puclicly exposed his wife's identity, which has been well established as not being very much of a secret anyway, at least in Washington.

U.S. Attorney's are not "run of the mill" prosecutors. You never know, but have to believe the ducks are in a row. The CIA brought this complaint. Those wanting to defend the White House have a few straws to grasp at:

1. Plame wasn't covert
2. Plame was already outted
3. If Plame was covert and was outted by White House Staff the White House didn't know she was covert

Thats the gambit, the defense attornies are playing their game. The average American is not sitting in on the Grand Jury, but I've read enough to believe that all three of the defenses are without merit.

The CIA has weighed in on number 1.

If number 2 is true, why wouldn't additional outtings still violate the law? Does the law state that identity marginally compromised somehow gives the White House Carte Blanche to remove all doubt by outting an agent with the media?

Regarding number 3, the Staffers made very incriminating statements that they knew the information was sensitive. Number 3 is probably their best gambit, but can it work? Its an affirmative defense, like Insanity and there will be a trial to determine if its a legitimate excuse:

"Yes I killed my wife, but I didnt understand what I was doing".

CtC

[ljb]

I am starting to hear reports that this (cia leak) thing may make Watergate look like a childish prank. The only difference being the republicans currently control all branches of government.

[lsbets]

I am starting to hear reports that this (cia leak) thing may make Watergate look like a childish prank. The only difference being the republicans currently control all branches of government.


:lol: :lol: Do those reports come from your well placed sources, or is that like John Piesen's inside information?

[ljb]

Actually it was on colbert reports last night as stated by Leslie Stahl.

[Lefty]

In other words lbj, you're getting these reports from notorious Bush haters. So much for Objective.

[DrugSalvastore]

As Bush once said himself, "Bring it on...."

Was that when he was a male cheerleader in a New England prep school?

As for this Lefty guy......calling me a "Bush hater." Whatever! Bush is only one of about the 99.7% of politicans that I hate....so, I will correct his mistake once again....I don't hate Bush...I hate politicans in general.

You guys can keep on being biased cheerleaders for these political hacks. I would bet that "Lefty" is a right winger. Maybe we can get some flamer to sign on as "Righty" and he can be a hardcore left winger. You guys are so clever

[Lefty]

drugsal, I have made no secret that i'm conservative. That makes me a rightwinger. So you hate all politicians, how cliche'. However politicians control our lives so we must elect the best ones we can. In last 2 Pres elections, we did.
My "handle" was not a result of trying to be clever. I signed up as lefty cause I was my nickname in school.

[Lefty]

drugsal says: so, I will correct his mistake once again....I don't hate Bush...I hate politicans in general.

Where's the mistake? If you hate most all polticians then don't you hate Bush too. I might have said you're a Bush Hater but I didn't say you hated Bush exclusively.
So let's say it together Drugsal, "lefty was not wrong" One more time, with feeling.

[JustRalph]

I am starting to hear reports that this (cia leak) thing may make Watergate look like a childish prank. The only difference being the republicans currently control all branches of government.

There you go again! Wishing and Hoping.............the same Leslie Stahl who works for the CBS document mill?

[ljb]

There you go again! Wishing and Hoping.............the same Leslie Stahl who works for the CBS document mill?
Well the documents were provided by someone else. most likely Rove but, i have no proof of that just a suspicion. Much like leslie stahl was just voicing an opinion.

[Lefty]

lbj, first it was a report and now you've demoted it to an opinion, hmmm?

[ljb]

In other words lbj, you're getting these reports from notorious Bush haters. So much for Objective.
This from a guy that has to listen to rush or o'liely before he knows what to have for breakfast. This was just an opinion voiced by leslie stahl last night. i am just sharing it for your enlightment.

[Lefty]

lbj, you must delight in wrongness. I've stated before I don't get to listen to Rush much anymore. I'm quite capable of defending my positions without any help, are you? And that's because i was a conservative before I had even heard of Rush, which was 1991.
First you said it was a report and now you say it was merely an opinion. Gimme a brk.

[DrugSalvastore]

So let's say it together Drugsal, "lefty was not wrong" One more time, with feeling.

Just call me DrugS!

Technically speaking, 'Lefty was not wrong' (with oh so much feeling)...

But, the way you said it suggested that I'm some hack who only hates Bush because he's a right winger. That is not the case.

Personally, I'm for a full employment economy...and by that I mean TWO jobs for EVERYONE. hahahahahah....I crack myself up!

I know Lefty, Lefty was a friend of mine, you sir are no Lefty!

And we will answer their demands for a gold standard by saying to them, Lefty shall not press down, upon the brow of labor, this crown of thorns, Lefty shall not crucify mankind, upon a cross OF GOLD!!!

Mr. LeftyChov, tear down this wall!!!!

Four score and seven years ago, our four Lefty's set foot on this nation.

Is life so dear, and peace so sweet, that it ought to be purchased at the cost of chains and slavery?? I say forbid it!, almighty God forbit it!, for I know not what course others will take, but as for me, give me Lefty or give me death!

Read my lips....no more Lefty's!

okay, that's all the famous American politcal quotes I know.

[46zilzal]

I always found it funny that a reactionary could have the handle LEFTY.... What a theoretical oxymoron!!!

[Lefty]

drugs said: But, the way you said it suggested that I'm some hack who only hates Bush because he's a right winger. That is not the case

So now, you like the many libs on this board, you have the ability to read my mind. Hmm. I am not calling you a lib, though you may well be, just noting the similaritys.

[Lefty]

46 wrote: I always found it funny that a reactionary could have the handle LEFTY.... What a theoretical oxymoron

Hope you got a chuckle outta it; I find socialists get so few.

[Lefty]

drugs: BTW, I found your political quotes using me quite funny.

[DrugSalvastore]

drugs said: But, the way you said it suggested that I'm some hack who only hates Bush because he's a right winger. That is not the case

So now, you like the many libs on this board, you have the ability to read my mind. Hmm. I am not calling you a lib, though you may well be, just noting the similaritys.

Fine, be that way.

I'm going to read your mind again.....here goes....

Lefty's mind: "DrugS is the most all-around brilliant and sexy man alive, if I was a chick...I would want him in the worst of ways! He's not only the greatest thoroughbred handicapper ever born, but he's also an elite genius! DrugS is my hero! I want to be just like him! Dear God, please let me be like DrugS...just for a day...and I'll be the happiest man on earth."

Yep, that's me accurately reading your mind once again.

[Lefty]

drugs, funny stuff. Not to be confused with Sonny Tufts.

[Tom]

:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

I am starting to hear reports that this (cia leak) thing may make Watergate look like a childish prank. The only difference being the republicans currently control all branches of government.


You've got Watergate on the brain....

This is about the 10th time in the past 3 or 4 years that you and your ilk have claimed impeachment and/or resignation and/or conviction(s) is right around the corner for SOMEBODY high up in the Bush admin, or even Bush himself.

Enough already....I'm still not recovered from all the laugher induced by the person who told me that Hurricane Katrina will be Bush's Waterloo.......:lol: :lol:

[Tom]

I have heard reports that Bush has conjoured up yet another hurricane with his storm machine - he is calling it Wilma and is sending it to finish off NO.
He also has heaters underwater in the gulf to speed up global warming.

[ljb]

You've got Watergate on the brain....

This is about the 10th time in the past 3 or 4 years that you and your ilk have claimed impeachment and/or resignation and/or conviction(s) is right around the corner for SOMEBODY high up in the Bush admin, or even Bush himself.

Enough already....I'm still not recovered from all the laugher induced by the person who told me that Hurricane Katrina will be Bush's Waterloo.......:lol: :lol:
Please have someone of your ilk explain to you that I just posted a statement made by leslie stahl. I never said anything about impeachment and/or resignation or conviction etc. Sad to hear you are laughing about hurricane Katrina. Bad day at the track ?

[Lefty]

lbj, I just gotta rush in here(rush, get it?)and field this last statement you made. PA is not laughing about the hurricane; he's laughing at the wildass statements made about the hurricane. You just gotta learn to read these things contextually.

[PaceAdvantage]

Please have someone of your ilk explain to you that I just posted a statement made by leslie stahl. I never said anything about impeachment and/or resignation or conviction etc. Sad to hear you are laughing about hurricane Katrina. Bad day at the track ?

Now that's odd. You are saying that I put words into your mouth, and in the next sentence, you are doing the same. Weird.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Please have someone of your ilk explain to you that I just posted a statement made by leslie stahl. I never said anything about impeachment and/or resignation or conviction etc. Sad to hear you are laughing about hurricane Katrina. Bad day at the track ?

O.K., but I will. The CIA outting, apparently undertaken in a scheme to hide the miss-justifications for the War in Iraq will result in Dubya Bush being forced from office by his own party with a Democratic congress poised to Impeach. Foggy will have already missed the board in the Breeders Cup Sprint however.

CtC

[Lefty]

another clown on board. At least he admits it.

[ljb]

lbj, I just gotta rush in here(rush, get it?)and field this last statement you made. PA is not laughing about the hurricane; he's laughing at the wildass statements made about the hurricane. You just gotta learn to read these things contextually.
This is what PA said
Enough already....I'm still not recovered from all the laugher induced by the person who told me that Hurricane Katrina will be Bush's Waterloo.......
It is Bush's much delayed reaction to hurricane Katrina that could be called Bush's Waterloo....
Pa, used poetic license and so did I.
Relax fellows, I understand your anxiety and respect it.

[hcap]

Watergate on the brain? Nixon may have got off easy.
Could make Watergate look puny

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/the-most-important-crimin_b_9183.html
James Moore
co-author of the bestselling, Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential.


"Fitzgerald has reportedly asked for a copy of the Italian government’s investigation into the break-in of the Niger embassy in Rome and the source of the forged documents. The blatantly fake papers, which purported to show that Saddam Hussein had cut a deal to get yellowcake uranium from Niger, turned up after a December 2001 meeting in Rome involving neo-con Michael Ledeen, Larry Walker, Harold Rhodes, and Niccolo Pollari, the head of Italy’s intelligence agency SISMI, and Antonio Martino, the Italian defense minister.

Is Fitzgerald is examining the possibility that Ledeen was executing a plan to help his friend Karl Rove build a case for invading Iraq? Ledeen has long ties to Italian intelligence agency operatives and has spanned the globe to bring the world the constant variety of what he calls “creative destruction” to build democracies. He makes the other neo-cons appear passive. He brought the Reagan administration together with the Iranian arms dealer who dragged the country through Iran-Contra.."

[hcap]

I suspect Colin Powell is pissed and ain't gonna take it anymore.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/afdb7b0c-40f3-11da-b3f9-00000e2511c8.html

Cheney 'cabal' hijacked US foreign policy

...Vice-President Dick Cheney and a handful of others had hijacked the government's foreign policy apparatus, deciding in secret to carry out policies that had left the US weaker and more isolated in the world, the top aide to former Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed on Wednesday.


In a scathing attack on the record of President George W. Bush, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Mr Powell until last January, said: “What I saw was a cabal between the vice-president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

[46zilzal]

couldn't have happened to a more DESERVING guy

[lsbets]

couldn't have happened to a more DESERVING guy

I thought you were neutral? :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

Could make Watergate look puny

Yeah, sure it will....

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

I like how tuned in you are HCAP to various sources. You're onto some verifiable information and its thought provoking.

The only cover the White House has on this False War is that we genuinely were attacked and theres a certain amount of understanding in the country for striking out mistakenly.

The problem for the White House is that its looking more and more that the striking out wasn't in mistake. That it was a manufactured case all along and that lies were told and crimes were committed to both tell the War Lie and to Protect the War Lie. And that doesnt even calculate the War Dead and the fact that the 9-11 perpetrators were given a pass to instead fight a Neo Nam War.

This is bigger than Watergate. You'd think handicappers would understand that. How big it becomes depends upon the proofs and the extent of those proofs will be determined by the pending indictments.


Watergate on the brain? Nixon may have got off easy.
Could make Watergate look puny

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/the-most-important-crimin_b_9183.html
James Moore
co-author of the bestselling, Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential.


"Fitzgerald has reportedly asked for a copy of the Italian government’s investigation into the break-in of the Niger embassy in Rome and the source of the forged documents. The blatantly fake papers, which purported to show that Saddam Hussein had cut a deal to get yellowcake uranium from Niger, turned up after a December 2001 meeting in Rome involving neo-con Michael Ledeen, Larry Walker, Harold Rhodes, and Niccolo Pollari, the head of Italy’s intelligence agency SISMI, and Antonio Martino, the Italian defense minister.

Is Fitzgerald is examining the possibility that Ledeen was executing a plan to help his friend Karl Rove build a case for invading Iraq? Ledeen has long ties to Italian intelligence agency operatives and has spanned the globe to bring the world the constant variety of what he calls “creative destruction” to build democracies. He makes the other neo-cons appear passive. He brought the Reagan administration together with the Iranian arms dealer who dragged the country through Iran-Contra.."

[PaceAdvantage]

Why not just go all the way and suggest 9-11 was actually perpetrated by members of a covert group acting on orders from the Bush admin itself, so that it would have a perfect excuse to carry out its agenda around the world...first stop, Iraq.

That's what you guys really want to say, correct?

[46zilzal]

From the Financial Times:
Vice-President Dick Cheney and a handful of others had hijacked the government's foreign policy apparatus, deciding in secret to carry out policies that had left the US weaker and more isolated in the world, the top aide to former Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed on Wednesday.

In a scathing attack on the record of President George W. Bush, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Mr Powell until last January, said: “What I saw was a cabal between the vice-president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

“Now it is paying the consequences of making those decisions in secret, but far more telling to me is America is paying the consequences.”

[Lefty]

46, as Lanny Davis was fond of saying when he was in Clinton adm: "where's the poof?"
Anybody can make allegations; proving them is another matter, isn't it?

[JustRalph]

If you Left wingers had any sense you would be looking for what Bush and the gang are really keeping from you. You are obsessed with this crap about Plame and Delay.........and Bush is probably just using it to distract all of you and your reporter friends. Neither of these things will end up with anybody going to jail and may not even provide a guilty verdict. you will spend the next two years chasing your tail over this stuff and Bush will and friends will get away with something else..............

[Lefty]

JR, yeah that dummie Bush just too smart for these libs.

[Tom]

Bush is far to busy directing Wilma to black neighborhoods to be bothered with any of that other crap. Just ask Claipso Louie.

[Tom]

JR, yeah that dummie Bush just too smart for these libs.

As is this.......

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

JR, yeah that dummie Bush just too smart for these libs.

They use to call Reagan "The Teflon President". They used that phrase because nothing would stick to him. Unfortunately for Dubya what Teflon he did have has worn off.

The papers are reporting a White House source that is stating the White House is worried that the Fitzgerald Grand Jury could turn out, quote: "Very, Very Badly". Additionally, the source stated that Dubya understands that Rove was just trying to help and because of that he still has Dubya's support. Theres little doubt that Rove has been very scarce recently.

Obviously the personnel coming back from the Grand Jury are being grilled at the White House as to what Fitzgerald is up to and the White House is beginning to get very nervous at the answers given by those that have given testimony.

Dubya got into Yale with C's.

He got into Harvard Business School with C's. You don't get into those schools with that type of academic record.

Dubya can't speak off the cuff and even with the speeches that he practices, its like NASCAR. You watch knowing he's going to crash. Its why you watch and its only a question of how big the wreck is.

Dubya is the most managed President in the modern history of this Country. He is not exposed to situations where he is forced to think on his feet and that includes requisite Press Conferences. You can't observe that man without realizing that but for money and "Party" backing he never could have risen to the level of responsibility he has upon his own intellectual and oratory abilities.

Dubya hasn't thought his way past one issue in his presidency. He has been managed throughout, but anyone thinking that Dubya strategically outted a CIA agent working on WMD's in the midst of national White House induced "Terrorism Phobia" is either deluding himself or hasn't apprehended the seriousness of what is occurring. Justifications are coming undone and folks are going to jail.

CtC

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm still waiting for the "perp walks" that were guaranteed to me many moons ago.

As for grades, is it a myth that President Bush got better grades in Yale than John Kerry?

[boxcar]

Hey, Cap, you don't think this guy Wilkerson has any axes to grind?

In a scathing attack on the record of President George W. Bush, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Mr Powell until last January, said: “What I saw was a cabal between the vice-president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

I'd say for beginners he was booted out by Condi, maybe? Or did he just resign because he saw the handwriting on the wall? Methinks he probably didn't care much for the house cleaning she did to sweep out more than a few career state department officials left over from the hippie 60's crowd.

Boxcar

[Lefty]

chuckles says: Dubya hasn't thought his way past one issue in his presidency. He has been managed throughout, but anyone thinking that Dubya strategically outted a CIA agent working on WMD's in the midst of national White House induced "Terrorism Phobia" is either deluding himself or hasn't apprehended the seriousness of what is occurring. Justifications are coming undone and folks are going to jail.


Clown, is this a report or just an opinion?

For a dummy, Bush has done well. We had 9-11 and the economy started a downward spiral, but wait, the tax cuts righted it and we had a record economy.
Bush has prevented another 9-11 by taking the fight to the terrorists and created 2 democracies in the Mid-East.
He has tried to tackle big probs that others were afrraid to tackle like SS.
I don't care if the man isn't an oratary genius, he gets things done. You can have the silver tongues, i'll take the man the man of vision and action..

[hcap]

boxcar Hey, Cap, you don't think this guy Wilkerson has any axes to grind? Could be. But Wilkerson and Powell go back almost 20 years.
More likely Powell is the one with the axe to grind

Powell has not directly dissed the prez and the "cabal", but perhaps his surrogate and long time friend just did.

Some info not yet solid.

-in the past several days, former secretary of state colin powell had a meeting with senator john mccain (R-AZ), primarily about the mccain-sponsored amendment on inserting a rider prohibiting torture onto the us defense budget (a bill which powell has himself been lobbying heavily for, against objections of president bush).

-during the meeting, powell recounted to the senator that he had brought to bush and cheneys' attention a classified memorandum about the issue of whether there was indeed a transaction inolving niger and yellow cake uranium. the document included ambassador joe wilson's involvement and identified his wife, valerie plame, as a covert agent. the memorandum further stated that this information was secret. powell told mccain that he showed that memo only to two people--president and vice president. according to powell, cheney fixated on the wilson/plame connection, and plame's status.

powell testified about this exchange in great length to the grand jury investigating the plame case. according to sources close to the case, powell appeared convinced that the vice president played a focal role in disclosing plame's undercover status.

[hcap]

Sorry, Judy... Everybody Didn't Get it Wrong on WMD.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/sorry-judy-everybody-_b_9239.html

In the Times' Sunday Judy-Culpa, Judy Miller said of her woeful pre-war reporting: "WMD -- I got it totally wrong... The analysts, the experts and the journalists who covered them -- we were all wrong."

To which a growing number of journalists are responding: No, we weren't.



Not EVERYBODY got it wrong. The old canard don't fly just like the lame duck preznit. Not everybody got it wrong on pre-war intel info.

[JustRalph]

Not EVERYBODY got it wrong. The old canard don't fly just like the lame duck preznit. Not everybody got it wrong on pre-war intel info.

Hcap.........you are right. Not everybody got it wrong.........Just these guys:



"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert (Sheets)) Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002 "Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002



"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002 "Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

[Lefty]

JR, amazing how we have to keep reminding these guys over and over what was said and going on and by whom. Can you say, selective memory? Awright libs, let's say it together, "selective memory."

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

The problem with the quotes below (Redacted for "brevity" like the 9-11 Commission report) is that they are not relevant. What was said in the years and months leading up to invasion day is just not relevant invasion day itself. It's like handicapping a five year old gelding upon his two year old record as a colt with no intervening races. There is no context.

Obviously "Time" changes the factual scenario, which doesn't even consider the nature of "Rhetoric" in international affairs. Things are said in that context in order to put pressure on other nations. Clearly WMD's had not been found by the U.N. Weapons Inspectors and there was a certain amount of paranoia about that and our politicians used Rhetoric to try and influence the situation. Additionally, the U.N. Inspectors were not on the ground in Iraq looking when those Rhetorical Statements were made. That fact added to the phobia.

The situation was quite different when Dubya ordered the invasion. The U.N. Weapons Inspectors were back and had Complete access to the Country including the Palaces and other locations that had previously been denied to them. They were destroying Al Samaud missiles, that purportedly traveled 20 miles too far without their payloads. Rhetoric wasn't necessary to compel compliance and neither was force. Compliance was occurring.

The problem for Dubya was that he knew Compliance was going to result in a lack of justification for attack. You have to remember Dubya stated 10 days after his inaugeration that he wanted quote "Someone to find him a reason to invade Iraq". Dubya wasn't going to allow lack of WMD's and compliance with the U.N. Resolutions to interfere with his agenda.

This isn't about Rhetoric. Its about lies and crimes now. It was about lies and crimes then. They had to manufacture a reason to invade Iraq and thats why its gotten so difficult for them. They created this cesspool. We can only hope that God uses it as an ethical government teaching tool.

Rove receives "Target Letter" In "Great Legal Jeopardy". Lawyers refuse to comment: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/21/politics/21leak.html?hp&ex=1129953600&en=e9e43780001cbcef&ei=5094&partner=homepage


Hcap.........you are right. Not everybody got it wrong.........Just these guys:

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002...

"Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002 "Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

[JustRalph]

Chuckles.........I can hear your tap shoes. You are dancing like crazy


One word response...............BULLSHIT!

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

One word response...............BULLSHIT!

My sentiments precisely, but then I was saying it in March of 2003.

The folks doing the tap dancing though are at the White House. They have very serious problems. I'm still not certain who besides Rove and Libby are going to be indicted. You have to remember Rove and Libby are the TOP aides to Dubya and Cheney respectively. The significance of them being indicted cannot be understated. This is so serious, if I were Fitzgerald I would be concerned for my safety. When you understand the extent of the scheme in this affair, you have to realize there is very little this Administration will not do to accomplish its agenda. The Agenda Folks just murdered the lawyer of Hussein's co defendants in Iraq. I would not be so sure the same cannot occur here.

Watergate started with inquiry into the coverup. That is the very situation the White House is currently faced with. There was talk in Nixon's cabinet of killing adversaries investigating the matter. Nixon declined. Dubya clearly doesnt have much integrity, but hopefully he's got enough to understand where the line has to be drawn.

God Bless this Nation

CtC

[boxcar]

Hey, 'Cap, when you get a chance, feast your eyes on the most recent Powell quote. He clearly disagrees with Wikerson's statements -- amazing since Powell "is the one with the axe to grind"!

Boxcar

boxcar Could be. But Wilkerson and Powell go back almost 20 years.
More likely Powell is the one with the axe to grind

Powell has not directly dissed the prez and the "cabal", but perhaps his surrogate and long time friend just did.

Some info not yet solid.

-in the past several days, former secretary of state colin powell had a meeting with senator john mccain (R-AZ), primarily about the mccain-sponsored amendment on inserting a rider prohibiting torture onto the us defense budget (a bill which powell has himself been lobbying heavily for, against objections of president bush).

-during the meeting, powell recounted to the senator that he had brought to bush and cheneys' attention a classified memorandum about the issue of whether there was indeed a transaction inolving niger and yellow cake uranium. the document included ambassador joe wilson's involvement and identified his wife, valerie plame, as a covert agent. the memorandum further stated that this information was secret. powell told mccain that he showed that memo only to two people--president and vice president. according to powell, cheney fixated on the wilson/plame connection, and plame's status.

powell testified about this exchange in great length to the grand jury investigating the plame case. according to sources close to the case, powell appeared convinced that the vice president played a focal role in disclosing plame's undercover status.

[lsbets]

Chuckie - thanks for the laughs. Your posts in this thread are some of the funniest comments I have seen in a long time! I almost took you seriously until I realized how far over the edge you were going, and that someone could only do that if they were mocking the far left conspiracy nuts. Great job!

[boxcar]

Hey, 'Cap, very strange words coming from a guy with a big axe to grind against the Bush admin. -- most especially since he could easily "let it all hang out" with absolutely nothing to lose.

As stated previously, Wilkerson is just a disgruntled former career state dept. employee mouthing off because the Bush admin. thumbed its nose at these overpaid, underworked career bureaurcrats.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/20/D8DBI5O01.htm

Boxcar

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Chuckie - thanks for the laughs. Your posts in this thread are some of the funniest comments I have seen in a long time! I almost took you seriously until I realized how far over the edge you were going, and that someone could only do that if they were mocking the far left conspiracy nuts. Great job!

Unfortunately I am dead serious, but I understand where you are coming from. You don't like the message and wish to discredit the messenger. Thats called an ad hominen attack by the way. The indictments you felt would never occur are beginning to take fuzzy shape in the corners of your mind. In a simian sort of way you are troubled but don't know what is going to occur for sure. However, you do sense a problem. (It's much more than that, but you can't see it and probably will erect defense mechanisms so that you never do.) The Rhetoric that the type uses is clearly empty in a court of law, but the White House understands that, which is why there is danger. For the White House, the messenger is Fitzgerald and they certainly don't like the message. There is some reason to be concerned that they may not stop at Rhetoric. They haven't:

1. 10 days after the inaugeration Dubya stated in cabinet meetings he wanted to invade Iraq.

2. The White House both misrepresented and lied to America about the WMD threat. Especially the Nuclear Threat.

3. Evidence was fabricated to support the lie and it is beginning to look like crimes were committed to fabricate the evidence.

4. Those contesting the fabricated evidence were retaliated against to both silence and discredit them.

5. The Country was manipulated to scare it into supporting the lie.

6. The real reasons for invading Iraq have never been made public to the electorate.

7. In the course of this scheme the true perpetrators of 9-11 were given a pass.

Should the country become fully aware of the facts behind these 7 points the current government will not stand.

First, the indictments.

[lsbets]

Chuckie - I am not concerned about anything, and I can assure you, I have a much better understanding of Iraq than you ever will.

[46zilzal]

as wildly outrageous as it is presented, there is a lot of truth in Chuckles statements about the rutabaga getting follks into a wholly unnecessary conflict sacrificing thousands of people (on both sides) not to mention the billions WASTED.

[46zilzal]

I have a much better understanding of Iraq than you ever will.

Simply being there as a participant does not make you priivy to the "higher ups" motives or maneuvers.

I was many times on the 49er's bench, in the locker room, training camp, and weight rooms but the mere presence there never allowed me acess to the game plan. Not once.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Chuckie - I am not concerned about anything, and I can assure you, I have a much better understanding of Iraq than you ever will.

Actually Isbets, I know precisely where you are and understand your antiquated motivations. I know that you are a vestige of the past and incapable of appreciating how our species must conduct itself to further our kind, both at home and abroad. You are Coelacanth, the Loch Ness serpent, Yeti, or any number of prehistoric creatures from the past. Some still exist and even find their way into our government, but they have to hide their true colors. They skulk about in shadows and speak in whispers and wear masks to hide their primitive forms. The word "Conservative" means resistant to change and its an apt descprition for the subject creatures who have out lived their era. Though they have little in common with others that call themselves "Conservative".

Let the unmasking begin

[JustRalph]

Actually Isbets, I know precisely where you are and understand your antiquated motivations. I know that you are a vestige of the past and incapable of appreciating how our species must conduct itself to further our kind, both at home and abroad. You are Coelacanth, the Loch Ness serpent, Yeti, or any number of prehistoric creatures from the past. Some still exist and even find their way into our government, but they have to hide their true colors. They skulk about in shadows and speak in whispers and wear masks to hide their primitive forms. The word "Conservative" means resistant to change and its an apt descprition for the subject creatures who have out lived their era. Though they have little in common with others that call themselves "Conservative". Let the unmasking begin

You are hysterical. That was sarcasm you low life..........

any of an order (Coelacanthiformes) of lobe-finned fishes known chiefly from Paleozoic and Mesozoic fossils

Is that supposed to impress someone? I got your fossil buddy.........POS......look that one up..........

Hey Pa, reveal to us who this crapmaster really is? What was his former nick?

[lsbets]

Ah, Chuckie so you cannot dispute that I have a much better understanding than you, instead you opt to call me a dinosaur. How quaint. At least you realize, unlike your friend, the "neutral doctor" that I have had occasion in the past, and probably will in the future, to see information that you have not seen, thereby having a larger picture to look at than the one that you paint in your twisted little mind.

[lsbets]

Hey Pa, reveal to us who this crapmaster really is? What was his former nick?

I have a thought about that, and its not one of the ones in the poll Chuckie posted.

[46zilzal]

Watch out...he is on the INSIDE!!

[46zilzal]

Coelacanthiformes fish have been discovered off the coast of Madagascar as recently as the 80's and in Asia as well. They are NOT extinct

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Coelacanthiformes fish have been discovered off the coast of Madagascar as recently as the 80's and in Asia as well. They are NOT extinct

Precisely,

The point being that ancient creatures share modern times with modern life forms.

Coelacanth has been documented. It was discovered in 1938 and rediscovered or confirmed in 1952 and a couple times ithereafter. It is the "Missing Link" between fish and amphibians. A precursor. The point being that prehistoric/simple life forms are not what they are thought to be because they hide in the shadows and slip under the radar. They have to in order to survive.

I've been waiting for these indictments to drag them up from the depths. Its time to get a good look at them. Expose them for what they really are. They have been pretending to be something else.

http://www.dinofish.com/

The critical question is even when pretending to be something else, does a dinosaur know its a dinosaur?

[PaceAdvantage]

I predict nothing substantial will come from any of this "the sky is falling" talk by those wishing to see the Bush admin take a legal deathblow.

For one, none of this stuff has the "sex appeal" of a juicy Watergate-type break in, which read like a good crime novel, or an oval office oral session (for obvious reasons). Thus, to the public at large, it will be a big yawn-fest, if that.

Add to the mix a Republican controlled congress, and you can connect the dots from there.

It might provide a bump to the MoveOn.org fund raising season, but that's about it....IMHO

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

September 3, 1971
The White House "plumbers" unit - named for their orders to plug leaks in the administration - burglarizes a psychiatrist's office to find files on Daniel Ellsberg, the former defense analyst who leaked the Pentagon Papers.

June 17, 1972
Five men, one of whom says he used to work for the CIA, are arrested at 2:30 a.m. trying to bug the offices of the Democratic National Committee at the Watergate hotel and office complex

October 10, 1972
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/watergate/oct10_72.jpg

FBI agents establish that the Watergate break-in stems from a massive campaign of political spying and sabotage conducted on behalf of the Nixon reelection effort, The Post reports.

November 7, 1972
Nixon is reelected in one of the largest landslides in American political history, taking more than 60 percent of the vote and crushing the Democratic nominee, Sen. George McGovern of South Dakota

January 30, 1973
Former Nixon aides G. Gordon Liddy and James W. McCord Jr. are convicted of conspiracy, burglary and wiretapping in the Watergate incident. Five other men plead guilty, but mysteries remain

April 30, 1973
Nixon's top White House staffers, H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, and Attorney General Richard Kleindienst resign over the scandal. White House counsel John Dean is fired

May 18, 1973
The Senate Watergate Committee begins its nationally televised hearings. Attorney General-designate Elliot Richardson taps former solicitor general Archibald Cox as the Justice Department's special prosecutor for Watergate

October 20, 1973 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/watergate/oct21_73.jpg
Saturday Night Massacre: Nixon fires Archibald Cox and abolishes the office of the special prosecutor. Attorney General Richardson and Deputy Attorney General William D. Ruckelshaus resign. Pressure for impeachment mounts in Congress.

July 27, 1974
House Judiciary Committee passes the first of three articles of impeachment, charging obstruction of justice

August 8, 1974 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/watergate/aug8_74.jpg
Richard Nixon becomes the first U.S. president to resign. Vice President Gerald R. Ford assumes the country's highest office. He will later pardon Nixon of all charges related to the Watergate case













Liddy and the others were convicted about 15 months after the crime. It took an additional five months for the key Nixon staffers to resign. The key distinction to my mind is that the key staffers are the initial focus of criminality and it will take a good year once they are indicted for a criminal conclusion. At that time, the Congressional hearings will begin regardless of which party is in power. The timing is such that the November 2006 midterms will arrive with the Criminal cases fully in the press. I expect the House to go Democratic in the current political climate.

Whether Dubya is directly linked with the criminality and obstruction is yet to be determined. At the very least the justifications for the war will come to light in the hearings and I believe that deceit upon America is Impeachable even if Dubya cannot be linked to the Rove and Libby crimes. We will see.

Its odd isn't it Liddy and Libby?

Dinosaurs can't adapt.

I predict nothing substantial will come from any of this "the sky is falling" talk by those wishing to see the Bush admin take a legal deathblow.

For one, none of this stuff has the "sex appeal" of a juicy Watergate-type break in, which read like a good crime novel, or an oval office oral session (for obvious reasons). Thus, to the public at large, it will be a big yawn-fest, if that.

Add to the mix a Republican controlled congress, and you can connect the dots from there.

It might provide a bump to the MoveOn.org fund raising season, but that's about it....IMHO

[lsbets]

I do believe Chuckles is taking some pretty good drugs because the dude is seriously delusional.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

The trick in life, in any endeavor is to anticipate what will occur in the future. Some just aren't able to do it in any manner, whether its picking a job, or betting on a horse or positioning oneself not to be impacted by a governmental crisis.

Step 1: Indictment over a scheme to out a CIA operative working upon critical national security issues in order to protect false war justifications.

Let the hearings begin

CtC

I do believe Chuckles is taking some pretty good drugs because the dude is seriously delusional.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey Chuckles, how come you never addressed my "Dubya" question?

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Hey Chuckles, how come you never addressed my "Dubya" question?

I remember it.

His backers began calling him "Dubya". Its slang for his middle initial (W) and is used to distinguish him from his father, who obviously has the same name. I use the term as a means of indicating my discontent with him.

A real Patriot doesnt wave the flag blindly or recite the Pledge of Allegiance without contemplating the depth of what it means. Patriotism involves a much more profound commitment than "My Country Right or Wrong". It involves a commitment to ensure our ideals and principles are followed, because without them our country is little different than many others.

Despite my critcisms, I have respect for the Presidency and "Dubya" is as critical as I can currently get. That may change as this developes though.

[JustRalph]

yeah right.............and Cindy Sheehan is a movement!

[Tom]

Coelacanthiformes fish have been discovered off the coast of Madagascar as recently as the 80's and in Asia as well. They are NOT extinct

What is extinct is a winning dem candidate! :lol:

I have to laugh my butt off reading all these posts about how dumb and useless Bush is, but he won twice, and he carried both houses wtih him. Whine, whine, whine, bottom line is, the country spoke, and it spoke right wing. Twice.

you guys remindme of the knight in that Montey Python movie:

Sir Lancelot: "I win,. I cut off your legs!:
Knihgt: "No you didn't!" (rolliing towards him)

[highnote]

What is extinct is a winning dem candidate! :lol:

I have to laugh my butt off reading all these posts about how dumb and useless Bush is, but he won twice, and he carried both houses wtih him. Whine, whine, whine, bottom line is, the country spoke, and it spoke right wing. Twice.



Tom,

You are correct -- sort of. The majority of the country voted for Gore the first time. So technically, the majority spoke left wing.

The second time, it is not so much that they spoke right wing as they spoke for continuity. The country didn't want to change horses mid stream.

(note: I always try to get a reference to horses in my PA posts :D ).

You are right that Bush was smart enough to get elected twice. My knock on him is that he used family connections to get elected. He was smart enough to get elected twice -- but only smart enough. He has no great intellect. Same with JFK -- family connections.

I appreciate Clinton's intellect much more. He had no family connections like Bush or Kennedy. He did it on his own.

People hate Clinton because he screwed up, but some could argue that Clinton self-sabotaged himself. Maybe he believed that he didn't really deserve to be president given his humble background. Same with Gary Hart. Here's a guy who was raised to believe that dancing (or singing? I forget which) was a sin. Then he finds himself hanging out in Washington D.C. as a leading candidate for president and being told that it's OK to have a Warren Beatty lifestyle. So what does he do? He gets caught having an affair. He even told reporters he wasn't and that they could follow him around to find out for themselves. They found out he was. He drops out of the race for president. Classic self-sabotage.

[Lefty]

cclownsays: The folks doing the tap dancing though are at the White House. They have very serious problems. I'm still not certain who besides Rove and Libby are going to be indicted. You have to remember Rove and Libby are the TOP aides to Dubya and Cheney respectively


Is that a report or just an opinion from your cracked crystal balls?

[boxcar]

cclownsays: The folks doing the tap dancing though are at the White House. They have very serious problems. I'm still not certain who besides Rove and Libby are going to be indicted. You have to remember Rove and Libby are the TOP aides to Dubya and Cheney respectively


Is that a report or just an opinion from your cracked crystal balls?

If this clown is walking around with "cracked crystal(ized) balls" that would go a long way towards explaining his incoherent, delusional ramblings. In all fairness to him and out of the depths of our own humanity, we should consider him to be insane by reason of excruciating pain.

Boxcar

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

I'll try to remember your below post when the indictments are handed down and repost it to remind you of who was deluding himself. Please do my a favor if I'm too preoccupied to remember (I very well may be with what I'll be involved with) please remind me.

I challenge you to this wager. If Both Rove and Libby are indicted you have to remove your Hillary Avatar and post no other Hillary Avatars. If they are both not indicted, I will post a Dubya avatar and leave it up for as long as I have enough free time to post here.

Chicken?

cluck, cluck, cluck, clucky

If this clown is walking around with "cracked crystal(ized) balls" that would go a long way towards explaining his incoherent, delusional ramblings. In all fairness to him and out of the depths of our own humanity, we should consider him to be insane by reason of excruciating pain.

Boxcar

[highnote]

I'll try to remember your below post when the indictments are handed down and repost it to remind you of who was deluding himself. Please do my a favor if I'm too preoccupied to remember (I very well may be with what I'll be involved with) please remind me.

I challenge you to this wager. If Both Rove and Libby are indicted you have to remove your Hillary Avatar and post no other Hillary Avatars. If they are both not indicted, I will post a Dubya avatar and leave it up for as long as I have enough free time to post here.

Chicken?

cluck, cluck, cluck, clucky

Chuck,
You are not risking much. All you have to do is change your screen name. Lefty and Box are proven commodities -- regular posters.

When you say you will leave it up for as long as you have enough free time to post here that seems to imply that you may stop posting at any time.

I don't need to speak for Lefty and Box, they will draw the same conclusion, but I would be interested in seeing a lib and a conserv place a wager with a little higher stake.

I'd like to see everyone reveal their true identities and then place a wager. A good wager would be that the loser has to post only positive comments about the politics of winning side. In other words, if the conservative wins, then the liberal must only write about the positive things going on within the conservative party for a period of 3 months and there must be at least 3 postings per week in the off topic. Any negative posts or too few posts by the loser would be considered a welched bet.

[hcap]

Think about this. Lawrence O'Donnell, the guy that originally named rove as one source for the leak, points out...

A typical Washington, D.C. grand jury is about 75% African American. Fitzgerald’s is slightly more than that. This is not the kind of group Karl Rove feels at home with. He has no professional experience trying to appeal to a group like this. He has been so unsuccessful at it that his boss’s job approval rating with African Americans is now 2%, which, factoring in the margin of error, could actually be zero. To make matters statistically and demographically much worse for Rove and Scooter Libby, only 12 of the 23 grand jurors have to agree to indict them.

I wonder how cheney comes accross with these folks? Rove and Libby have already been informed they are in legal jeopardy.
Not good news for repubs.

And yes there were major voices and dissenters before the war. Read the links I posted. And yes Chuckles is 100% correct.
Keep up the good work Chuck. We are now the majority.

The dinos are being phased out in favor of the WARM-BLOODED.
Cold blooded has evolutionary disadvantages.

Even if you by into intelligent design, you gotta agree.
After all 60 million years of dinos only produced Steven Spielberg movies

[hcap]

Speaking of major voices and dissenters before the war.

From Michael Isikoff
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-isikoff/trusting-scooter_b_9261.html

At a time when questions about the Bush administration's case for war were beginning to mount, Libby assured Miller: Don't worry, there's still secret stuff out there that will prove we were right all along

..The real story of last weekend's Judy Miller revelations is not what Scooter Libby may have told her about Joe Wilson's wife. It is how Libby clearly, and unequivocally, misrepresented the contents of the classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) about Iraqi WMD.

..Unfortunately for Libby, and perhaps for Miller, excerpts of the classified NIE were released just ten days later. It didn't show that the pre-war intelligence was "stronger" than had been publicly released to date. It showed that the intelligence community was riddled with doubts -- especially about the claims (primarily by Vice President Dick Cheney) that Iraq was close to getting a nuclear bomb.

[hcap]

First Wilkerson then Scowcroft.

http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20051021-051052-6225r

"Old Bush vs. new

WASHINGTON, Oct. 21 (UPI) -- The Bush administration is bracing for a powerful new attack by Brent Scowcroft, the respected national security adviser to the first President George Bush.

A Republican and a former Air Force general, Scowcroft is a leading member of the bipartisan foreign policy establishment, and his critique of both of the style and the substance of the Bush White House, is slated to appear in Monday's editions of the New Yorker magazine.

[JustRalph]

yeah, Bush was just smart enough to swing the popular vote by 3 million votes in 2004. this is old news.

Did anybody notice that the NY Times said in an article last week that unmasking Plame was not a crime? The fact that she had not been undercover in the last five years was the point they made. I guess that is one of the elements of the so called crime.

[Kreed]

The Valerie outing was no big deal & probably not technically illegal, but
LYING (omission-commission) is illegal when done Under Oath or as Martha
Stewart found out, even off-the-record lying to the FBI etc etc. I think
its 65-35 that Rove & Libby will be indicted for Obstruction. Lying, really.
But honestly I just don't understand why these guys lie to begin with. Its
so self-defeating because there's a huge trail. ahh, human nature i guess.

[highnote]

Yep. I agree with Kreed. It's the cover up that is the problem. Same thing with Clinton... if he would have admitted he had an inappropriate relationship in the oval office in the first place he would have saved himself a lot of trouble.

It's the cover up, stupid.

[Lefty]

kreed, Martha Stewart lied to the FBI and was not under oath. However Bill Clinton did lie under oath. Hmmm...
My bet: nobody gets indicted for anything in this case.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

hcap,

I could be mistaken, but I swore this Grand Jury was in Chicago, Illinois. Which is doesn't change the main theme of your post because that city is predominently Black and Liberal.

Is there no place a Republican Crook can get "justice"?

lol

As far as my Avatar wager with BOXCAR, the stakes are small. BOXCAR himself is in no posting jeopardy. A loss, (and he will surely lose), will not deprive him of the ability to post his instinctual views. He won't accept though because Neo Con's don't engage in the battle of facts and rationale. They call names, use deceitful illustrations and attempt to distort reality. Just read his text, he needs his Avatars. If Neo Cons relied upon the truth to try and persuade they would be left defenseless. Most Neo Cons are somewhat like stegasaurus. That dino by the way had a tiny skull with a miniscule brain. So small in fact that its major nerve bundle was in its ass.

ps Hillary leads Condi in early polling 50% to 40%

I'm not a big Hillary fan, though her baggage is nothing compared to Dubya and his Neo Con cabal, but I can't believe the polling is really that close. In two weeks, it won't be.

Cluck, cluck, clucky



Think about this. Lawrence O'Donnell, the guy that originally named rove as one source for the leak, points out...

A typical Washington, D.C. grand jury is about 75% African American. Fitzgerald’s is slightly more than that. This is not the kind of group Karl Rove feels at home with. He has no professional experience trying to appeal to a group like this. He has been so unsuccessful at it that his boss’s job approval rating with African Americans is now 2%, which, factoring in the margin of error, could actually be zero. To make matters statistically and demographically much worse for Rove and Scooter Libby, only 12 of the 23 grand jurors have to agree to indict them.

I wonder how cheney comes accross with these folks? Rove and Libby have already been informed they are in legal jeopardy.
Not good news for repubs.

And yes there were major voices and dissenters before the war. Read the links I posted. And yes Chuckles is 100% correct.
Keep up the good work Chuck. We are now the majority.

The dinos are being phased out in favor of the WARM-BLOODED.
Cold blooded has evolutionary disadvantages.

Even if you by into intelligent design, you gotta agree.
After all 60 million years of dinos only produced Steven Spielberg movies

[JustRalph]

hcap,

I could be mistaken, but I swore this Grand Jury was in Chicago, Illinois. Which is doesn't change the main theme of your post because that city is predominently Black and Liberal.

predominently black ? I looked at the Census data for the "greater chicago area" which includes Gary Ind etc........ 20% black. You are a piece of work. If the U.S. Census data is correct........once again you speak from the arse

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Did anybody notice that the NY Times said in an article last week that unmasking Plame was not a crime? The fact that she had not been undercover in the last five years was the point they made. I guess that is one of the elements of the so called crime.

No, its not. The fact that he is "guessing" is interesting don't you think?

Reading is fundamental, though I'm fully aware Cons don't read. Heck, Dubya doesn't even read and that includes his Bible. Start with this, now you know what the Grand Jury is working upon and what is not relevant:

http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html

Just to help those that don't read or read so poorly they misinterpret their bibles, the following are not relevant:

1. That name is required to disclose identity;

2. That work within Five Years on a Clandestine project is necessary, and

3. That a marginal outting by a private person excuses a full media outting by a government official.

The government officials involved could NOT have picked a more devastating method of outting a protected covert agent than the Media...lol

Karl Rove is such a genius. :lol:


(Note, if confused please look up the definition of relevant. I can help, but I can't do it all for you) Once fully informed, a man is in a much better position to tell how a thing is liable to unfold. I recommend reading and close scrutiny. Its enriching:

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

You better focus on "Chicago". The greater Chicago area includes some very populated and wealthy cities.

too funny

predominently black ? I looked at the Census data for the "greater chicago area" which includes Gary Ind etc........ 20% black. You are a piece of work. If the U.S. Census data is correct........once again you speak from the arse

[Lefty]

clownwrote:The government officials involved could NOT have picked a more devastating method of outting a protected covert agent than the Media...lol

Hmmm, you forgot that the reporter called Rove, not the other way around and the reporter brght the subject up. It's called Ambush Journalism.

The above posts by cclown proves that to be a liberal you have to be smug and above all else BELIEVE that you are much more intelligent than anyone else. Remember what they kept telling us about kerry? That he was so smart that we pipples just didn't "get" him.

[betchatoo]

Chicago (that toddling town) is mainly liberal, but not largely black. There has been such massive gentrification here for the last few years that the poor folk are leaving town cause they can't afford to stay.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Chicago (that toddling town) is mainly liberal, but not largely black. There has been such massive gentrification here for the last few years that the poor folk are leaving town cause they can't afford to stay.

You could be correct betchatoo, however for the city proper (within city limits) the last time I heard it was predominately black. It is very much a multi cultural city with large hispanic and east european populations as well. The lakefront section is predominately yuppy and predominately white. Do you have a census?

clownwrote:The government officials involved could NOT have picked a more devastating method of outting a protected covert agent than the Media...lol

Hmmm, you forgot that the reporter called Rove, not the other way around and the reporter brght the subject up. It's called Ambush Journalism.

The above posts by cclown proves that to be a liberal you have to be smug and above all else BELIEVE that you are much more intelligent than anyone else. Remember what they kept telling us about kerry? That he was so smart that we pipples just didn't "get" him.

Wait a minute. Its Rove that says the reporters called him. Theres a lot of testimony that overlaps in a spider web effect. Conversations that were coming and going. Its been the U.S. Attorney's job to sift it out. In the end, a rational reader has to decide if the agent's identity was being spread around by the media or the white house. I have no doubt who started it and I know Rove got the target letter Wednesday and now his attorney refuses to comment.

I'm not saying you have to be a wiseguy to be a patriot and a good citizen. But you better not be a dummy in court. The reason being, court is a spin free zone.

CtC

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-context=qt&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_QTP3&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-CONTEXT=qt&-tree_id=4001&-all_geo_types=N&-redoLog=true&-_caller=geoselect&-geo_id=06000US1703114000&-search_results=40000US16264&-format=&-_lang=en

Whites 42%
Blacks 36.8%

I stand corrected

[hcap]

Ok Lawrence O'Donnell and I stand corrected, but he also said
only 12 of the 23 grand jurors have to agree to indict them.

I guess much of this speculation will be ended next week when Fitzgerald annouces whatever he is gonna announce. My guess-indictments. And unless bush pardons the lot, and tries to cut things short, a continuing public can of worms will open on greater issues, like the manipulation of the press, the public and congress into war.

To bad Fitz wasn't around to investigate the Gulf Of Tonkin.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was presented to the American public as two unprovoked attacks by North Vietnamese gunboats against two American destroyers (the USS Maddox and the USS C. Turner Joy) in August of 1964 in the Gulf of Tonkin. According to the Pentagon Papers and various researchers, the attacks were virtually fabricated by President Lyndon B. Johnson's administration.

So it is not unprecedented for our leaders to lie big time. Dems and Repubs
Remember the Maine bull.

[46zilzal]

Lefty......... TRY real hard to get through one statement without using the word LIBERAL

[46zilzal]

Cheney's chief of staff reportedly sought an aggressive campaign against Wilson.

By Peter Wallsten and Tom Hamburger / Los Angeles Times

WASHINGTON — Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff was so angry about the public statements of former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, a Bush administration critic married to an undercover CIA officer, that he monitored all of Wilson's television appearances and urged the White House to mount an aggressive public campaign against him, former aides say.

Those efforts by the chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, began shortly after Wilson went public with his criticisms in 2003. But they continued into last year — well after the Justice Department began an investigation in September 2003, into whether administration officials had illegally disclosed the CIA operative's identity, say former White House aides.

[Lefty]

clownwrote:I'm not saying you have to be a wiseguy to be a patriot and a good citizen. But you better not be a dummy in court. The reason being, court is a spin free zone.


Ya gotta be kidding. Liberal judges have made may terrible decisions, prosecuted political enemies and overturned the will of the peole many times.


46, lemme get this straight: A guy can call conservatives dinasauers or use the word con but i'm not supposed to use the word liberal. Well, when dealing with liberals I have to use the word liberal liberally.

[46zilzal]

RUN to the store and BUY yourself a good thesarus

[Lefty]

I have 2-3. Why do people object to being called what they are; especially liberals? I'm proud to be called a conservative but here we have Hillary Clinton trying to mask the fact she's a liberal. Hmmm?

[46zilzal]

I have 2-3. Why do people object to being called what they are; especially liberals? I'm proud to be called a conservative but here we have Hillary Clinton trying to mask the fact she's a liberal. Hmmm?
funny..I am going to start a count at how many times your LIMITED expressive ability relies on that SINGLE attribute to compartmentalize EVERYTHING BAD.

Hell that's twice in about 35 words....... you use it like punctuation!

[Lefty]

46, it's not my fault you liberals are so screwed up and think every problem can be solved by either throwing money at it or just ignoring it. It's not my fault you think the courts are there to do the things you can't get accomplished in an election or for destroying your political enemies.

[46zilzal]

Another repsonse with LIMITED expressive ability. You seem to average the use of LIBERAL about every 20-40 words.

But that is typical of a reactionary who has EVERYTHING figured out by LUMPING EVERYONE, who has the slightest difference of opinion, ON ANY TOPIC, into a single compartment

[Lefty]

Hey skunkcabbage, I calls em like I perceives em. Put that in your needle and inject it.

[46zilzal]

You finally wrote an entry and did not use your standby word....Hey did you ACTUALLY WRITE THAT of was it a ghost writer??

[46zilzal]

It would be really a lot of fun to have a LIVE debate. But then you could simply bring a TAPED response for every point ..
"liberal this, liberal that." Your responses are NEVER any different from discussion to discussion

[Tom]

Lefty......... TRY real hard to get through one statement without using the word LIBERAL

It does get old fast.
Lefty....try using butthole - same thing, but classier! :lol:

[hcap]

Frank Rich

"Well before Bush 43 took office, they (neocons ) had become fixated on Iraq, though for reasons having much to do with their ideas about realigning the states in the Middle East and little or nothing to do with the stateless terrorism of Al Qaeda. Mr. Bush had specifically disdained such interventionism when running against Al Gore, but he embraced the cause once in office. While others might have had cavils

... the path was clear for a war in Iraq to serve as the political Viagra Mr. Rove needed for the election year.

But here, too, was an impediment: there had to be that "why" for the invasion, the very why that today can seem so elusive that Mr. Packer calls Iraq "the 'Rashomon' of wars." Abstract (and highly debatable) neocon notions of marching to Baghdad to make the Middle East safe for democracy (and more secure for Israel and uninterrupted oil production) would never fly with American voters as a trigger for war or convince them that such a war was relevant to the fight against those who attacked us on 9/11.

And though Americans knew Saddam was a despot and mass murderer, that in itself was also insufficient to ignite a popular groundswell for regime change. Polls in the summer of 2002 showed steadily declining support among Americans for going to war in Iraq, especially if we were to go it alone."

[boxcar]

I'll try to remember your below post when the indictments are handed down and repost it to remind you of who was deluding himself. Please do my a favor if I'm too preoccupied to remember (I very well may be with what I'll be involved with) please remind me.

I suspect the only thing you're preoccupied with is your self-importance.

On second thought, though, maybe you are involved with a project of sorts. Let's see..it's gettin' mighty close to Halloooweeenie time, so maybe you're frantically and desparately searching for a peanut costume? Are you plannning to entertain us with a reenactment "Bite the Dust" wherein you had one of your mental lapses that resulted in your elephantized demise? (Perfectly Horrific! I might even take time out from my busy schedule to have a really good chuckle...on you.)

Or are you searching for an 8' Mr. Chuckles costume and a "Minder" who can manipulate you? (This, too, would be hilarious!).

Mr Chuckles can be moved around by his "Minder" with a remote control unit. He can wave, shake hands, hop, jump, turn around and walk forwards.

http://basic1.easily.co.uk/01703C/03E01C/chuckles.html

You're just loaded with talent, aren't you?

I challenge you to this wager.

(Here we go again...a Dirty Harry Wanabe this time comes dressed up as a clown.) Take you challenge and shove up it up your big fat clown nose. I'm not impressed. Such childish antics only betray the level of your immaturity, and might impress only impressionable children.

So, you don't like my latest avata either, eh? Oh, well...maybe you'll like the next one I have in mind.

Chicken?

cluck, cluck, cluck, clucky

On top of all your other problems, you suffer from a speech impediment, too? Or are you emulating a Bird Flu-stricken chicken in its death throes?

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not a big Hillary fan, though her baggage is nothing compared to Dubya and his Neo Con cabal,

Wanna make a bet? (since you appear to be a betting man/woman, I thought I'd ask)

[PaceAdvantage]

I stand corrected

What a shocker...

[Lefty]

hcap writes: Frank Rich

"Well before Bush 43 took office, they (neocons ) had become fixated on Iraq, though for reasons having much to do with their ideas about realigning the states in the Middle East and little or nothing to do with the stateless terrorism of Al Qaeda. Mr. Bush had specifically disdained such interventionism when running against Al Gore, but he embraced the cause once in office. While others might have had cavils

... the path was clear for a war in Iraq to serve as the political Viagra Mr. Rove needed for the election year.

But here, too, was an impediment: there had to be that "why" for the invasion, the very why that today can seem so elusive that Mr. Packer calls Iraq "the 'Rashomon' of wars." Abstract (and highly debatable) neocon notions of marching to Baghdad to make the Middle East safe for democracy (and more secure for Israel and uninterrupted oil production) would never fly with American voters as a trigger for war or convince them that such a war was relevant to the fight against those who attacked us on 9/11.

And though Americans knew Saddam was a despot and mass murderer, that in itself was also insufficient to ignite a popular groundswell for regime change. Polls in the summer of 2002 showed steadily declining support among Americans for going to war in Iraq, especially if we were to go it alone."



But we just went ahead and elected GW anyway, didn't we?

[highnote]

Wanna make a bet? (since you appear to be a betting man/woman, I thought I'd ask)


I wanna see you guys make a bet. No one responded to my previous post about making a bet.

I wrote that you should all identify yourselves so that it won't be as easy to welch on your bet and sign up under a new screen name. (Not you, PA. We "assume" you wouldn't welch and then get a new screen name. :D )

Maybe some people don't want to have a their names revealed. Maybe they have good reasons. Or maybe they aren't who they say they are. Here's your chance... put up or shut up.

So if you lose you only say nice things about the other party's politics and nothing negative for a period of 3 months. And I would also add that you write nothing positive about your own party. And by party -- I really mean liberal or conservative.

[boxcar]

Hey, John, I don't have a dog in this hunt, so it matters not a whit to this political cynic how the chips fall. In fact, I haven't posted very much at all about this particular investigation. (Of course, this doesn't mean that I haven't been following it somewhat and that I don't have an opinion on it.) But what do I have to gain by betting on politicians of any stripe? I might as well bet on the veracity and integrity of used car salesmen. (I'd probably stand a better chance collecting a few on this group before I would on politicians.)

Boxcar

[highnote]

Boxcar,

I tend to agree with you. (TWICE IN A MONTH!) I've followed the story and can't tell how it is going to turn out. So even if I could bet on it I wouldn't because there is no edge -- at least given the information I've analyzed.

However, there are some on this board who staunchly believe it is going to go one way or the other. So if they feel so strongly then maybe they'll bet on it.

Now, if I could offer a ridiculous price and find someone to take it, then it might be worth it. But for a plan vanilla straight 50-50 wager, I see no edge.

No edge. No bet.

[Lefty]

swetye, you've enough time on this board you should know my name as i've revealed it many times.

[highnote]

You're right. I was referring to those who don't reveal their identities, but want to make a wager. If you can't verify who they are then you probably don't want to bet with them.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

First off, some context. The subject individual made this post on the indicated Date and Time. Note this poster is "independent" enough to have a biased political avatar and signature...lol



October 23, 10:12 PM



Hey, John, I don't have a dog in this hunt, so it matters not a whit to this political cynic how the chips fall. In fact, I haven't posted very much at all about this particular investigation. (Of course, this doesn't mean that I haven't been following it somewhat and that I don't have an opinion on it.) But what do I have to gain by betting on politicians of any stripe? I might as well bet on the veracity and integrity of used car salesmen. (I'd probably stand a better chance collecting a few on this group before I would on politicians.)

Boxcar



As stated previously, this "independent" thinker has both a zealous political avatar and signature. "Out of Context" Images and textual blurbs which lack rationale or review are the heart of the Neo Con Lexicon. Does anyone else but the speaker think this fella is unbiased in this debate?....lol





.



I suspect the only thing you're preoccupied with is your self-importance...



On second thought, though, maybe you are involved with a project of sorts. Let's see..it's gettin' mighty close to Halloooweeenie time, so maybe you're frantically and desparately searching for a peanut costume? Are you plannning to entertain us with a reenactment "Bite the Dust" wherein you had one of your mental lapses that resulted in your elephantized demise? (Perfectly Horrific! I might even take time out from my busy schedule to have a really good chuckle...on you.)



Or are you searching for an 8' Mr. Chuckles costume and a "Minder" who can manipulate you? (This, too, would be hilarious!).



Mr Chuckles can be moved around by his "Minder" with a remote control unit. He can wave, shake hands, hop, jump, turn around and walk forwards.



http://basic1.easily.co.uk/01703C/03E01C/chuckles.html (http://basic1.easily.co.uk/01703C/03E01C/chuckles.html)



You're just loaded with talent, aren't you?



Wow, did anyone else find the above poorly written, hard to follow and exceptionally off point? Its hard for them when they go further than Avatars and Signatures isn't it?...lol You gotta chuckle with Neo Cons (Cons for short)







(Here we go again...a Dirty Harry Wanabe this time comes dressed up as a clown.) Take you challenge and shove up it up your big fat clown nose. I'm not impressed. Such childish antics only betray the level of your immaturity, and might impress only impressionable children.



So, you don't like my latest avata either, eh? Oh, well...maybe you'll like the next one I have in mind.



I was anticipating the above, interesting don't you think?...lol



Funny thing about bona fide Cons, one of their qualities is irrationality and they always demonstrate it, this one is palpable. They come unglued wherever they are, even on handicapping chat boards....lol It's too funny and predictable and they say medication is overdone.







On top of all your other problems, you suffer from a speech impediment, too? Or are you emulating a Bird Flu-stricken chicken in its death throes?



Boxcar



Note above the tortured means of belittling a simple clarification upon who was being delusional regarding the pending indictments of Rove and Libby by a simple Avatar use wager. (Maybe if I'd of thrown Cheney in as a prospective indictee, he'd of bitten.) Although the Clown ascertained the subject's instability on the basis of that Avatar and Signature use and realized there was no way this particular individual was going to dispense with them.

At least we learned one thing didn't we sports fans? This faker lacks confidence and his posts can be dismissed as baneful ranting from the right wing asylum. Con's can run, but they can't hide.

Cluck, Cluck, CLUCKY...lol


CtC

[lsbets]

Tom, I'm thinking your suggestion of ignore sounds like a good one. Too bad PA can't save bandwith using it. :lol:

[Lefty]

well, clown, you can denigrate conservatives all you want but the scary fact is the dems, since they can't win elections anymore, seek power through the courts and they are now using the courts to try and destroy their political enemies. Rove and Delay are proof of that. It's a dangerous game.

[ljb]

well, clown, you can denigrate conservatives all you want but the scary fact is the dems, since they can't win elections anymore, seek power through the courts and they are now using the courts to try and destroy their political enemies. Rove and Delay are proof of that. It's a dangerous game.
Must be them damn activists judges! According to neocon spinmeisters, lying is just a technicality.
Lefty you are out of your mind! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[46zilzal]

And the OTHER side would NEVER stoop to doing the same thing!!!

Newt and many of the others who tired White water, etc. etc

[lsbets]

Newt and many of the others who tired White water, etc. etc

Can we get a translation?

[46zilzal]

politicians use dirty tricks BOTH WAYS all the time

[lsbets]

i understood the point you were trying to make, it was the use of "tired White water" that led to to wonder about the language used.

[Lefty]

46, there were real crimes associated with Whitewater. Many people, including seniors lost their life's savings because of whitewater. 12 people went to jail for actual crimes. Meanwhile Delay is being tried for a crime that wasn't even a crime whe he was supposed to have committed it. Ronnie Earl convened 5 Grand Juries until he could find one that was willing to indict.
Rove stands accused of outing a covert cia agent. But in order for that to be a crime she must have been undercover and overseas sometimes in the last 5 yrs. She wasn't, no crime even if Rove had did the deed. THe courts have been subverted and it's a slippery slope.

No, lbj, it's you who are out of your mind.

[Lefty]

If this adm was really as vindictive as the dems, The Bush justice dept could have "nailed" Sandy Berger to the "cross." for stealing classified docs. But he received a "slap on the wrist." Your"they all do it." doesn't hold up.

[Tom]

Chuckles the "Vet" :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :faint:

[hcap]

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1024-09.htm

Bush at Bay
by Martin Walker UPI

WASHINGTON - The CIA leak inquiry that threatens senior White House aides has now widened to include the forgery of documents on African uranium that started the investigation, according to NAT0 intelligence sources.

This suggests the inquiry by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald into the leaking of the identity of undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame has now widened to embrace part of the broader question about the way the Iraq war was justified by the Bush administration.

Fitzgerald's inquiry is expected to conclude this week and despite feverish speculation in Washington, there have been no leaks about his decision whether to issue indictments and against whom and on what charges.

Two facts are, however, now known and between them they do not bode well for the deputy chief of staff at the White House, Karl Rove, President George W Bush's senior political aide, not for Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

The first is that Fitzgerald last year sought and obtained from the Justice Department permission to widen his investigation from the leak itself to the possibility of cover-ups, perjury and obstruction of justice by witnesses. This has renewed the old saying from the days of the Watergate scandal, that the cover-up can be more legally and politically dangerous than the crime.

The second is that NATO sources have confirmed to United Press International that Fitzgerald's team of investigators has sought and obtained documentation on the forgeries from the Italian government.

[hcap]

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/index.php?id=P2460

According to a source in the Italian embassy, Patrick J. "Bulldog" Fitzgerald asked for and "has finally been given a full copy of the Italian parliamentary oversight report on the forged Niger uranium document," the former CIA officer tells me:

"Previous versions of the report were redacted and had all the names removed, though it was possible to guess who was involved. This version names Michael Ledeen as the conduit for the report and indicates that former CIA officers Duane Clarridge and Alan Wolf were the principal forgers. All three had business interests with Chalabi."

....Everyone assumes Libby and his co-conspirators were really after Wilson, but this now seems unwarranted, especially in light of Fitzgerald's reported focus on the Niger uranium forgeries. If this question of the forgeries is now within Fitzgerald's purview, it opens up the possibility that the conspirators really were after Plame on her own account. If Plame and her associates were hot on the trail of whoever forged the Niger uranium documents, by neutralizing Brewster Jennings & Associates the Libby cabal closed one possible route to uncovering their schemes – and opened up another one.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckles_the_Clown
I'm not a big Hillary fan, though her baggage is nothing compared to Dubya and his Neo Con cabal,

Wanna make a bet? (since you appear to be a betting man/woman, I thought I'd ask)

Are you saying theres something new that wasn't thoroughly investigated by the Reich Wing of the Republican party?:

Travelgate
Whitewatergate
Filegate
BjGate

Millions of dollars were spent upon the very thorough investigations above and the best they could come up with was that Hillary represented a Bank they had a partnership agreement with in hearings before a State Regulatory Agency her husband controlled. (It was essentially a "no money down" partnership and I was very critical of the conflict of interest, and yes in that affair she should have been baking cookies, but its been investigated.)

The unwritten rule in politics is that if you get by a scandal, it can't be raised with any merit again. Dubya skated on Drunkgate, Druggate, DUI Gate, Draft Dodgegate, National Guardgate, College Entrygate. People just don't care after its gone over once.

Is there something new?

Initially I was against Hillary as a Presidential Candidate. (Shes still not my first choice) but after five plus years of extremely incompetent leadership I've found myself looking back upon the Clinton years with nostalgia. Sure there were some problems, NAFTA among others, but the Country worked with the Clintons in the White House and I think they learned their lessons where they had difficulties. They are still together and she has forgiven him.

The thing you have to remember with Hillary is that should it come time to pull the lever for her, you are also pulling the lever for 8 years of Presidential leadership where bonehead judgements were far more scarce and lies to the people only involved affairs. This time it really would be a "two for". Bill will be right there with Hillary on all decisions and the Country could use a steady hand on the helm again.

If she runs, I believe they should have twin podiums set up and that he stand with her alternating who gets to answer questions.

After Dubya anyone will look better though. Its because they are bound to be.

CtC

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Obviously you want my attention PA, so I'll give you another smidgeon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckles_the_Clown
I stand corrected


What a shocker...

Chicago was a predominately Black City, but unbeknowst to me "gentrification" marginally altered that previous makeup.

The Grand Jury is in D.C. however and hcap's major point is valid.

lol

Fitzgerald is from Chicago and handles some of the work from that office

I'm hoping for the Big Fat Bald Lying Fish to get caught in the net. Its a bigger cast, but he's a very slow swimmer right now...lol

[PaceAdvantage]

"Reich Wing", "Bulldog" Fitzgerald, and Libby "Cabal"....you guys are on FIRE tonight!!

Save some for the anti-climactic ending, will ya?! LOL

[hcap]

I suggest the "that rats deserting the ship " scenario supports the view that indictments are imminent. The old line conservatives are distancing themselves from the soon to be discredited neocon agenda.

Wilkerson, Powells top man, and Scowcroft 41's top advisor and long time friend, made the old guards position clear. And in doing so are trying to provide some sort of safe haven for bush in the coming storm.

Gee imminent indictments, and the old guard waging pre-emptive war against the neocons. Where have we heard this before.

Ironic ain't it.

Thanks Chuck, the grand jury is in DC.
2% approval among African Americans. Does not bode well for the bushies.

Mista Preznit, bend over, place your head between your knees and kiss your neocon ass bye-bye

[hcap]

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10506


In an explosive series of articles appearing this week in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, investigative reporters Carlo Bonini and Giuseppe d'Avanzo report that Nicolo Pollari, chief of Italy's military intelligence service, known as Sismi, brought the Niger yellowcake story directly to the White House after his insistent overtures had been rejected by the Central Intelligence Agency in 2001 and 2002. Sismi had reported to the CIA on October 15, 2001, that Iraq had sought yellowcake in Niger, a report it also plied on British intelligence, creating an echo that the Niger forgeries themselves purported to amplify before they were exposed as a hoax.

Today's exclusive report in La Repubblica reveals that Pollari met secretly in Washington on September 9, 2002, with then–Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. Their secret meeting came at a critical moment in the White House campaign to convince Congress and the American public that war in Iraq was necessary to prevent Saddam Hussein from developing nuclear weapons. National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones confirmed the meeting to the Prospect on Tuesday.

[lsbets]

"Reich Wing", "Bulldog" Fitzgerald, and Libby "Cabal"....you guys are on FIRE tonight!!



And Boxcar is accused of becoming unhinged. I think Chuckie might be ready for a padded room pretty soon.

[46zilzal]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20051026/cm_huffpost/009522

[Tom]

Nice of you to interject some humor here....quoting Ariana....good one! I admit, I didn't get it at first, but I see you are trying to lighten up the mood here.
Hehehe, quoting Ariana, ya got me with THAT one! :lol: :lol: :lol:



















:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[hcap]

Since Fitzgerald received authorization to expand the inquiry, it is only fitting that he expands his DC office.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001033.html

"Another coincidence? More office space needed to shut down the operation?

I think not. Fitzgerald's operation is expanding.

BTW, the Plamegate grand jury demographics--- mostly African- American women.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Everything says Indictments are imminent hcap. You're information once again is extremely insightful. Libby and Rove are definitely going to be indicted, beyond that we can only hope and wish. If I was a Con, I wouldn't assume the bigger fish that may currently escape indictment are immune from it.

I'm in a state of glee right now. Not glee for Republicans going down, but glee for crooks that would subvert our country being caught and what the revelations are going to mean to America. Though I will rub it in with the baneful and ignorant Con's that goosestep in support of the current unamerican regime. The dinosaurs have been caught in their own tar pit. It's poetic justice.

I'm positively giddy with excitement about this affair. Its going to be a wonderous, marvelous, educational and entertaining winter. Let the hearings begin!!!

Harriet Miers, was there any doubt? Congratulations upon your personal judge of character Dubya. It takes a retard to know a retard.

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

lol

CtC Dances a jig

http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/pigeonhawks.htm

Since Fitzgerald received authorization to expand the inquiry, it is only fitting that he expands his DC office.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001033.html

"Another coincidence? More office space needed to shut down the operation?

I think not. Fitzgerald's operation is expanding.

BTW, the Plamegate grand jury demographics--- mostly African- American women.

[lsbets]

Goosesteps - yet another Nazi reference from Chuckie. I guess when you have nothing to say that's what you fall back on, and its easy to do when all you do is hide.

[Tom]

I understand Chuckie the Vet's ignorance about character vs qualified, having no character of her own, and only being qualified for the Ignore list, not one single senator came out as a no votes, and nobody ever questioned her character - only he qualifications for the job. But when you are that low in the gutter, your angle of sight of reality is too steep to be rational, and is frequently obstructed by things floating by.

[Lefty]

hcap says:I think not. Fitzgerald's operation is expanding.

Yeah, if the orig charge has no crime in it then expand to get em on anything you can. If that happens, maybe the prosecutor shoulda be prosecuted.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

hcap says:I think not. Fitzgerald's operation is expanding.

Yeah, if the orig charge has no crime in it then expand to get em on anything you can. If that happens, maybe the prosecutor shoulda be prosecuted.

You musta watched "Spin the Press" with Kay Hutchinson Sunday Lefty. That was her line of rap. I'd remind you this particular prosecutor is the man that successfully prosecuted the bombers of the WTC's in 1993. He is a patriot. Spin that Con on a high wire with no net.

Just remember Clintons bj's weren't illegal, it was the lying under oath (perjury) to cover up the relationship that was illegal and there was a civil lawsuit and an impeachment over it. Hutchinson voted to impeach, which raises the question of why was perjury over bj's important to her but perjury over outting CIA agents not important to her? Hypocrites are easy to spot. Its because they are so exceedingly stupid. This is big, very big, hold onto your toupee.

P.S. Clinton never was convicted. He was found in Contempt of Court, much like Judith Miller and he was never charged with more than perjury and obstruction in his Senate Trial and he was found not guilty by a Republican majority Senate. Rove, Libby and others can only hope to be so fortunate.

lol

[Lefty]

clown, nope. I'm at the racebook at that time. Clinton, nothing more than perjury. I guess in your world that's okay. But if they convict Rove of Perjury, cause he said something slightly diff than he did months ago, then it will be heinous. You can't out an agent if she's not undercover overseas in last 5 yrs. Her neighbors knew she was in CIA. She had her picture in Vanity Fair mag. Some undercover. Wilson pronb an ambitious prosecutor that doesn't give a whit about this country or who hw hurts. That's just a guess when his peers say he is known to be "creative."

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Lefty I don’t know if you're exceptionally disengaged or a complete partisan. Regardless, I'm going to apply a new policy with you. I will correct you only once, but after the initial correction if you insist upon posting your inaccurate propaganda I'm just going to let you go on. Your misinformation won't do you any good because its in Court that this will be played out and Court truly is a Spin Free Zone.


clown, nope. I'm at the racebook at that time. Clinton, nothing more than perjury. I guess in your world that's okay.


Clinton is NOT the issue, but he was never convicted of Perjury. This isn't a question of "Your guy was worse than my guy.” Perjury is not okay. Not for you, not for me, not for Rove and not for Libby, as they are going to find out to their great consternation.


"But if they convict Rove of Perjury, cause he said something slightly diff than he did months ago, then it will be heinous.


It will be Perjury involving lies to cover-up outing a CIA agent.


You can't out an agent if she's not undercover overseas in last 5 yrs.


Absolutely incorrect and I have no idea where you came up with the above. You obviously didn't read the Statute (Law) I posted for the board. You must be listening to political spin sources and you're ignorance on this point should make it clear to you that there’s better news sources out there.


Her neighbors knew she was in CIA.


Wrong, Fitzgerald assigned the FBI to interview the neighbors and they concluded that the neighbors believed her to be a consultant. [/quote]


She had her picture in Vanity Fair mag. Some undercover.


The Vanity Fair article was published long AFTER she was outted in the National Media by the White House. You can't kill someone that's already dead. You can't kill yourself if you’re already dead either.


http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/articles/051010roco03d


http://www.jimgilliam.com/2004/01/vanity_fairs_profile_on_joseph_wilson_and_valerie_ plame.php (http://www.jimgilliam.com/2004/01/vanity_fairs_profile_on_joseph_wilson_and_valerie_ plame.php)


I found these two articles with a 20 second Google search. Try it, it’s educational, unless you’re a time wasting partisan, which I greatly suspect.


Wilson pronb an ambitious prosecutor that doesn't give a whit about this country or who hw hurts. That's just a guess when his peers say he is known to be "creative."


The Prosecutor's name is Patrick Fitzgerald, by the time this ordeal is over I'm quite certain the media will have drilled his name through your obviously sturdy skull. Fitzgerald is the real Patriot in this matter. He has served his nation against international terrorists in the 1993 WTC bombings and he is defending it against domestic terrorists that committed Treason by fabricating a false case for war, Terrorists who lied to America and Terrorists that ruined a secret agent's work upon real WMD's to both protect the lies and perpetrate the Treason.

[lsbets]

If things play out the way most people assume - Libby on obstruction and/or perjury, and Rove on perjury, I am really curious what the spin from the crowd hoping and praying for indictments will be. If there is no charge for anything involving Plame and all the charges only relate to conduct during the investigation I can't wait to see how fast they spin to make it sound like they were indicted for "outing" an agent. Because as Chuckie has established very well in the 50 someodd posts under this name, the truth has nothing to do with the claims the left wing wackos throw out there.

[Lefty]

clown, my aren't we full of ourselves? Your inflated ego matches your clown shoes. You can't out someone who has not been undercover overseas in last 5 yrs. Also, to out someone you must know they're undercover and then do so deliberately. That's the law. Hannity interviewed a woman that helped write that law. I'll take her word over the liberals any day. CAUSE SHE HELPED WRITE THE FRIGGIN' LAW!
Clinton not the issue but you libs keep bring him up. He wasn't convicted of perjury when he was clearly guilty of perjury. But in your world that's okay, but if Rove doesn't use same exact words everytime then he should be convicted. Well, I admit i'm partisan and that more honest than all of you clowns. But hey, clowns are supposed to make people laugh, and you fullfill that.

[Lefty]

clown wrote:He has served his nation against international terrorists in the 1993 WTC bombings and he is defending it against domestic terrorists that committed Treason by fabricating a false case for war, Terrorists who lied to America and Terrorists that ruined a secret agent's work upon real WMD's to both protect the lies and perpetrate the Treason.

Hmm, you mean like Clinton(both)Kerry, Albright and a bunch of other Dems. I guess Clinton bombed Saddam cause believed he didn't have WMD's. Also the whole world blved he had em and he did cause he used em on the Kurds. But these facts mean nothing to clowns like you.

[Lefty]

clwn wrote some more:Lefty I don’t know if you're exceptionally disengaged or a complete partisan. Regardless, I'm going to apply a new policy with you. I will correct you only once, but after the initial correction if you insist upon posting your inaccurate propaganda I'm just going to let you go on. Your misinformation won't do you any good because its in Court that this will be played out and Court truly is a Spin Free Zone.

Please please ms. clown, don't deny me your great wisdom. Court a spinfree zone? Clown, you really do make me laugh. You talking about the same courts that let O.J. and Michael Jackson go? You talking about the same courts that continually give pedaphiles a slap on the wrist so they can continue to rape and kill our children? You talking about the courts that didn't indict Clinton for perjury? That the spinfree courts you talkin about funny lady?

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

If things play out the way most people assume - Libby on obstruction and/or perjury, and Rove on perjury, I am really curious what the spin from the crowd hoping and praying for indictments will be. If there is no charge for anything involving Plame and all the charges only relate to conduct during the investigation I can't wait to see how fast they spin to make it sound like they were indicted for "outing" an agent. Because as Chuckie has established very well in the 50 someodd posts under this name, the truth has nothing to do with the claims the left wing wackos throw out there.

My final posting day will be Sunday post Breeders Cup. I really can't take the time to educate those that don't want to learn. Besides by Sunday the work of Jesus will be in progress and my work here will be done. From Indictment Day forward its merely a matter of the "Chain of Events" and thats in Sandal Man's hand's.

I believe the charge is going to involve the CIA law, (at least for one of the principals), granting sometimes you catch the Rats in the Act, sometimes you catch the Rats running for cover. If the Rats are caught running for cover it doesn't make them any less of a RAT. If they didn't have something to hide they wouldn't be lying and impeding the investigation. U.S. Attorney's take failure to cooperate very, very seriously. Judith Miller can tell you something about that.

That said, Fitzgerald may decide the CIA violation is too difficult to prove and may not pursue it. His mandate however is very broad and all law violations pertaining to this Treasonous Act will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/ag_letter_feburary_06_2004.pdf

If I were a Con and Rove and Libby were about to be executed from the cabinet, I'd probably be spinning too...........Nahhhhhhhhhhh.

lol

I love it, God help me but I love it so

CtC

[Lefty]

clown does it again:That said, Fitzgerald may decide the CIA violation is too difficult to prove and may not pursue it. His mandate however is very broad and all law violations pertaining to this Treasonous Act will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

In other words, clown, he'll make things up.
We'll see how it plays. He may indict Wilson. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

[Lefty]

clown:If I were a Con and Rove and Libby were about to be executed from the cabinet, I'd probably be spinning too...........Nahhhhhhhhhhh

clown, you know what happens when you assume, don't you?

[lsbets]

Chuckie you obviously have not given the spin much thought because that was really weak. Really weak. If Libby gets indicted for perjury and nothing happens to Rove this thing disappears. You might remember from your previous lives here what I said a long time ago - I am not convinced anyone was outed (and I am still not - too many of the questions that I had have not been answered, and I have no doubt you are incapable of answering them) so if there are any indictments at all they will be related to the investigation. From the start you guys have wanted Rove and you have wanted to "bring the WH down." It appears that my prediction months ago is much more likely to occur than your far out fantasies. If you don't get Rove and all you get are charges against Libby related to his conduct during the investigation you will try to spin, but to no avail. I love it when you guys try to say how dumb Bush is, but he seems to outsmart you guys all the time. Doesn't say much about his opposition does it?

[lsbets]

If anyone follows the futures on tradesports (which have shown to be very accurate with politics) they have Rove at a 36% chance to be indicted, down 26% from this morning. Libby is around 90%.

[PaceAdvantage]

The results of this investigation/grand jury are going to be, in reality, a huge disappointment to Chuckles and his/her ilk. Mark my words.

Read between the lines in the media these past couple of days. It's becoming more and more clear they won't be able to indict anyone on anything of substance. More like procedural BS during the investigation, like lsbets mentioned.

It's another joke. Much like the "Kerry will win...slam dunk....." or "Rove is going to be doing the perp walk in a few days" or "They're going to feign some more terrorist warnings" etc. etc. etc.

The ultimate anti-administration logo: :bang:

[Tom]

A little song, a little dance,
Is this our Chuckles, by some chance?

[lsbets]

Where is Chuckie? Rove - not indicted. Cheney - not indicted. Libby - lied to investigators and the grand jury - fry him. But, where are the indictements Chuckie predicted? Right to the top - worse than Watergate. Ha - its like I said, nothing. Outing an agent. Nope, not in this case. Must be disappointing to be a lefty wingnut who was praying this would bring down the government. So what's the spin Chuck?

[JustRalph]

I am a little surprised at the indictments.....not that he was indicted....but the harshness or the obvious shotgunning of the charges. Often when you have a weak case you pile on the charges and you end up with a plea bargain deal that looks worse than it really is. This should be interesting.

[Tom]

And where is that terror alert that was supposed to happen this week?
Appears to remain the same.

[Lefty]

Hey guys, the libbies haven't been right yet;you don't expect them to start now, do you?

[Tom]

All that time, money, an honest, proven SP, and this all they came up with.

He resigned, he will probably plea bargain out, but if he indeed lied, then he should do time. That's the diff between lefty and righty - we are willing to eat our own! :eek: (when it is dserved)

Seems to me the system is working......but the site is suspicuously absent of the other side's comments tonight. Must all be capping the BC..yeah, that's it.
:rolleyes:

[lsbets]

The virtual silence is very reminiscent of when CBS finally admitted they got fooled on the Bush/NG story. I think it was about a week before the most ardent defenders of the story showed up again.

[highnote]

W and I agree. We need to presume everyone is innocent until proved guilty.

Unlike Clown, I won't make a prediction. I don't like being wrong. Of course, I wouldn't lose any money in this case. But my reputation is worth something. :D Clown said he won't post after the BC. So what's he got to lose. He wouldn't even reveal his identity. For all I know he's working for Osama :eek:

I think the admin knew what they were doing. Libby is taking one for the team. Libby is the fall guy. Maybe. Maybe not.

We'll find out eventually. But from what I've read this is the impression I get.

What motivation did Libby have to reveal the agent in the first place? To discredit Wilson so we could go to war with Iraq? Was he trying to cover his ass because Cheney would get angry if the intelligence was wrong?

If he was trying to sex up the intelligence in order to go to war -- that is the height of selfishness. To put his needs in front of the American people. There is never any reason to ever deceive the people of your country. Especially when lives are on the line.

I can only speculate. Any thoughts?

[ljb]

And where is that terror alert that was supposed to happen this week?
Appears to remain the same.
Tom,
If you will go back and read my original post re: Terror alerts, you will see that it was posted with a question mark. I further clarified my statement by saying they usually wait until the polls come in before issuing their alert. Wait a couple days to see if story has legs. If not, no alert, if it appears to be getting too much press terror, alert is issued. Wait until Sunday's spin and we will be able to see if alert is needed.
Oh and I am no longer 0 for 2. even though I don't recall predicting indictments.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

YEEEEEEEEEE


HAAAAAAAAA



Interesting move on the extension of the grand jury and deferment on Rove. I understand they need to talk to Cooper again.

Bill Frist was comical wasn't he?....lol Through a spokesman he said "The Senate will not conduct an investigation into the CIA leak."....LMAO

Bill, mark those words and lets see what you have to say in 4 months stonewaller...lol

What a glorious news period awaits.

It has begun

CtC

[lsbets]

Chuckie, I hate to break it to you, the grand jury was not extended. If you want to talk about the reports that Rove might be indicted at some point in the future than at least get the basic facts straight. However, I don't think anyone expects you to get even the simplest matters right, so feel free to continue rambling nonsensicly.

[Tom]

Giggles the Goofball is in denial.....or lala land.

They say a good procescutor could indict a ham sandwhich with a grand jury.
Must be the sammy did more than Rove did, because after all this time, it would seem a really good procescutor ( and this guy is one) would have found something.

This sounds more like when a footbal team loses and the coach says.....wait until next year!

I wonder if the pages of Chuckie's NY Times are stuck together......:eek:

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

:p :p :p :p


Here We Go!!!!!!!!!

Libby faces 30 years in jail and 1.25 million in fines on 5 counts. His legal fees are gonna far exceed that. :)

Scooter Rat Libby Defense Fund to the rescue!!!! :)

Keep your subscription to a major newspaper up to date. This is gonna get good.

I Love it So.

CtC

[Tom]

You should seek help.

You have a problem.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody cares about Libby. Usually, when it comes to government, nobody ever cared about the vice president (except for Cheney....now everyone cares about the Vice President)...you think anyone really cares about the Vice President's chief of staff? Especially when he is indicted on procedural issues, and not for the main issue at hand?

Chuckles, everything you were crowing about prior to Friday has been thrown out the window. You can't possibly be happy with the result of this painfully long investigation.

This may have been a bigger waste of taxpayer money than even Clinton's BJ-gate.

Have fun celebrating with your consolation prize....I'm sure you'll spend the rest of your limited time here trying to convince us all that Libby was at the top of your hit list.....LOL

[hcap]

Unless libby cops a plea and serves a reduced sentence, falling on the sword for his bosses, here's another scenario courtesy of a knowledgeable reader at andrewsullivan.com....

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2005_10_23_dish_archive.html#113054808801359975

Seems to me that when discussing the possibility of a leak-related crime, e.g. violation of either the Intelligence Identities Act or Espionage Act, Fitz focused on how such prosecutions were very difficult because they require proof of a mental state. (Hence the silly analogy about a pitcher throwing at guy's head.) Under both statutes, the disclosure of classified info must be intentional or purposeful, i.e., the perp must have "known" that the information was classified (for the Espionage Act) or that the agent was "covert," among other things (under the Intelligence Act). As Fitz asked, "was this something where he intended to cause whatever damage was caused? Or did they intend to do something else and where are the shades of gray?"

I don't know what Fitz knows. But I think he is one inch from prosecuting the leak itself - at least his public comments leave the impression that he's pissed about it - and the only thing holding him back is that he's afraid he can't prove state of mind. Proving state of mind is really hard in any case -- and it's especially hard when the defendant is an intelligent career political operative with an expensive white collar defense lawyer. I think Fitz can do it, and I think Fitz thinks he can do it, but he seems to be playing it cautious. Why?

Let's just take the Espionage Act. Fitz clearly said that Plame's position was classified, he implied strongly that it related to national security, and as Josh Marshall pointed out in a recent post, the indictment itself states that both Cheney and Libby knew the precise division of the CIA where she worked, which by definition made her covert. So right there - as soon as he tells that to Miller - you have a prima facie violation of the Espionage Act.

Fitz also said, "I don't buy that theory [that one should never use the Espionage statute], but I do know you should be very careful in applying that law because there are a lot of interests that could be implicated in making sure that you picked the right case to charge that statute ... You want to know what their motive is, you want to know their state of knowledge, you want to know their intent, you want to know the facts." He went on to lament the fact that Libby had lied, thus throwing the proverbial sand in his eyes.

What's all this mean? Well, seems like Fitz has a pretty strong case for the Espionage Act, and if Plame met the objective standards in the Intelligence Act, for that one too. And it seems like the fact that Libby lied repeatedly is very strong evidence of a culpable state of mind, belying any claim that he didn't "know" the info was classified or that divulging it was wrong. Add that to the very specific allegation in the indictment that he knew exactly where she worked, and there it is.

So why not charge it? Because Fitz has Libby nailed on the 5 counts from today's indictment. Just nailed. So he's bringing Libby in on those charges, they're going to talk some turkey, and Fitz is going to see if Libby will talk, maybe about VP, maybe about Official A (who's clearly Rove), or maybe about the VP's moles at State and in the CIA. Offer some carrots - maybe no jail - but if Libby refuses, then Fitz brings down the espionage or intelligence act charges. Libby has nowhere to go, and Fitz knows it. In my view, he's going to try to exploit that opening before wrapping this thing up.

That's entirely my view as well, after mulling this over some more for a few hours. From the evidence we now have, it seems crystal clear to me that Libby knew he was out of line when he leaked the Plame name, and perjured himself to protect himself and the real source of the leak, Cheney. He gambled that the reporters wouldn't squeal; and that he could cleverly spin his phone conversations so that the information seemed to come from reporters, not him. The question now is whether he will now turn against his colleagues and master to save his own skin. This story is just beginning. Ultimately, it's about Cheney.

[lsbets]

Hcap - you're a smart guy, but take the "I really want Bush to go down" hat off and think for a second. If Libby is falling on the sword as you believe and if there was a grand conspiracy as you believe, would it also follow that Libby would know that if he were to go to jail the longest he would be there was until Bush's last day in office in 2009? After all, if they all conspired, wouldn't he already know he would be pardoned at the end? Walk free, no criminal record, a book deal and speaking fees to make up for the money spent on legal fees? Come on, you might hope that he'll be pressured and start singing, but Fitzgerald ain't dumb. He knows he can't pressure him. If he had anything else he would have brought charges. He didn't. Unless something totally unforseen happens, its Libby and thats all. And not for leaking Plames identity, but for lying to investigators and the grand jury. Just like I said months ago.

[highnote]

I think what amazes me most is how we all had a pretty good idea of the outcome before it happened. Secret Grand Jury? I don't think so. :D

[lsbets]

I think what amazes me most is how we all had a pretty good idea of the outcome before it happened. Secret Grand Jury? I don't think so. :D

That was something else I mentioned a while ago - in a case about leaks, we were all discussing the leaks coming out of the investigation. :lol:

[Tom]

These guys are the reason for the Randi Rhodes and Stephanie Miller radio shows - they appeal the high school girl mentality, the giddy little giggling about everything. When you look at the bell curve of intelignece and maturity, there is that market that exists beyond the minus three sigma line, and here they are. LOL!


BTW, Stephanie Miller was on a local radio show here in the 80's - when she was billed as "Sister Sleeze."
After listening to her show the last two Saturdays, it is apparent she is still a sleeze, but 20 years older (alas, not wiser!)

I can see the same drivel posted here that comes off Scare America.

For the life of me, when governement officials at that lever are committing crimes, I see now reason for giddy joy - no matter who the party. It is sad and we pay the bill for it. This blind lemming following of ABB is really a statement on the American education system...how did people of this caliber ever graduate? It scary that this low level of citienship is allowed both vote and breed. Than God most of them can't figure out a ballot! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[hcap]

Fitzgerald is a pretty cautious but detailed prosecutor. Bulldog is not only his nick but also his modus operandi
From one of his previous cases.

In December 2003, Fitzgerald announced the indictment of former Illinois Governor George Ryan on corruption charges in Operation Safe Road, which began in 1998. In that year, the investigation of a fatal accident revealed that truckers were purchasing commercial licenses from state officials. Indictments were announced in stages, culminating in the indictment of Ryan, who was the 66th defendant in the case. In the Libby case, the allegations suggest he was merely one of many officials -- including an unnamed Under Secretary of State and "Official A," a Senior White House Official -- who were involved in revealing classified information about Joseph Wilson's wife Valerie Plame. No other individuals are named as defendants, and they should not be considered so at this point, but the complexity of the indictment suggests that the investigation may follow a pattern similar to that used by Fitzgerald in the Illinois corruption case.....Elizabeth de la Vega

Yep scooter could cut a deal and bush could pardon him. But Fitz will still squeeze scooter anyway. Your logical pardon scenario will not deter Fitz. That's the way this prosecutor works. There are reasons to believe others are cooperating. Iran contra is an example where presidential pardons were enacted but the scandal still broke, and we eventually learned who broke the law.

But even if pardons are down the road the road is very bumpy.
Bush looses in all possible cases, and the ABB philosophy will probably become a recognized school of post cold war politics. I suspect colleges will have courses teaching how to avoid bush-like policies. :cool:

A-If Scooter squeals the big dick goes down-Cheney is in Agnew territory. Bush the lame duck is now crippled lame duck. Bush pardons scooter. Bush cripples legacy.

B-If scooter clams up and decides to fight in court, the ongoing trial will further lame the duck. Scooter is sentenced. Bush pardons scooter-bush cripples bushs' legacy.

I don't believe the fat lady has sung yet. Presidential pardons will not necessarily put a damper on lots of fat ladies harmonizing.

[lsbets]

Hcap - this fades away to be mentioned once in a while on the networks and all the time on Air America (and since no one listens, no one hears). Cheney told Libby that Plame worked for the CIA? So what? There is nothing wrong with that and there is no evidence of Cheney having done anything else. You dream scenario didn't materialize. As one of your favorite groups is named - Move On. This won't get what you want.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

hcap I'm convinced the 5 charges are Iron Clad.

Obviously this has only just begun. Very good deduction.

Don't you love it.


Unless libby cops a plea and serves a reduced sentence, falling on the sword for his bosses, here's another scenario courtesy of a knowledgeable reader at andrewsullivan.com....

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2005_10_23_dish_archive.html#113054808801359975

Seems to me that when discussing the possibility of a leak-related crime, e.g. violation of either the Intelligence Identities Act or Espionage Act, Fitz focused on how such prosecutions were very difficult because they require proof of a mental state. (Hence the silly analogy about a pitcher throwing at guy's head.) Under both statutes, the disclosure of classified info must be intentional or purposeful, i.e., the perp must have "known" that the information was classified (for the Espionage Act) or that the agent was "covert," among other things (under the Intelligence Act). As Fitz asked, "was this something where he intended to cause whatever damage was caused? Or did they intend to do something else and where are the shades of gray?"

I don't know what Fitz knows. But I think he is one inch from prosecuting the leak itself - at least his public comments leave the impression that he's pissed about it - and the only thing holding him back is that he's afraid he can't prove state of mind. Proving state of mind is really hard in any case -- and it's especially hard when the defendant is an intelligent career political operative with an expensive white collar defense lawyer. I think Fitz can do it, and I think Fitz thinks he can do it, but he seems to be playing it cautious. Why?

Let's just take the Espionage Act. Fitz clearly said that Plame's position was classified, he implied strongly that it related to national security, and as Josh Marshall pointed out in a recent post, the indictment itself states that both Cheney and Libby knew the precise division of the CIA where she worked, which by definition made her covert. So right there - as soon as he tells that to Miller - you have a prima facie violation of the Espionage Act.

Fitz also said, "I don't buy that theory [that one should never use the Espionage statute], but I do know you should be very careful in applying that law because there are a lot of interests that could be implicated in making sure that you picked the right case to charge that statute ... You want to know what their motive is, you want to know their state of knowledge, you want to know their intent, you want to know the facts." He went on to lament the fact that Libby had lied, thus throwing the proverbial sand in his eyes.

What's all this mean? Well, seems like Fitz has a pretty strong case for the Espionage Act, and if Plame met the objective standards in the Intelligence Act, for that one too. And it seems like the fact that Libby lied repeatedly is very strong evidence of a culpable state of mind, belying any claim that he didn't "know" the info was classified or that divulging it was wrong. Add that to the very specific allegation in the indictment that he knew exactly where she worked, and there it is.

So why not charge it? Because Fitz has Libby nailed on the 5 counts from today's indictment. Just nailed. So he's bringing Libby in on those charges, they're going to talk some turkey, and Fitz is going to see if Libby will talk, maybe about VP, maybe about Official A (who's clearly Rove), or maybe about the VP's moles at State and in the CIA. Offer some carrots - maybe no jail - but if Libby refuses, then Fitz brings down the espionage or intelligence act charges. Libby has nowhere to go, and Fitz knows it. In my view, he's going to try to exploit that opening before wrapping this thing up.

That's entirely my view as well, after mulling this over some more for a few hours. From the evidence we now have, it seems crystal clear to me that Libby knew he was out of line when he leaked the Plame name, and perjured himself to protect himself and the real source of the leak, Cheney. He gambled that the reporters wouldn't squeal; and that he could cleverly spin his phone conversations so that the information seemed to come from reporters, not him. The question now is whether he will now turn against his colleagues and master to save his own skin. This story is just beginning. Ultimately, it's about Cheney.

[ljb]

The rightwingers here want to make light of the indictment, calling it a technical error and such, but think about it.
Friday's indictment says Libby illegally obstructed the investigation into the White House outing of an undercover CIA agent, Valerie Plame Wilson. He also was charged with perjury and making false statements to FBI agents. The ongoing investigation of Karl Rove revolves around the same issues, among possible others.
Former President George H. W. Bush was right in 1999 when he said, "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."
Former Republican National Committee Chair Ed Gillespie was right when he said, "I think if the allegation is true, to reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative—it's abhorrent, and it should be a crime, and it is a crime."

[hcap]

Ls,

You are out of touch with the majority. Bush is tanking big time, a ABC/WP poll shows a large majority thinks the so-called "grown-ups" ( remember the ethical clean sweep bush promised on arrival ?? ) in the administration are more UN ethical than Clintons' guys.

An indictment of a top guy like libby who as we know is joined at the hip to cheney, has legs. The majority of us out un the real world are pretty fed up with the grown ups screwing up the country.

You had better hope libby indeed falls on the sword. A public trial is the last thing our fearless leaders want. Remember how watergate started. A small group of plumbers fixing leaks.

[lsbets]

You keep believing that Hcap - I was right when I called this thing months ago. If Libby is found guilty of the charges, he'll be punished and he should be, but there was no "outing". I don't care what polls say. I said this made no sense and there did not appear to be an "outing" and if anyone was going to be charges with anything it would be because of conduct during the investigation. It must kill you guys who were so adamant about grand conspiracy theories that I was right all along.

[JustRalph]

Yeah right.........remember Cindy Sheehan is a movement!

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

hcap the thing I know you realize is that theres three possibilities. Libby talks to save his prison bitch ass, because its clear they got him cold. The second is that he refuses to cooperate and the facts that influenced him to Perjur himself are publically elicited at trial. I suppose a third is that he immediately pleads fully guilty to the five counts, avoids the public trial and sits in prison as a butt toy until ethical Dubya pardons him....lol All scenarios are a nightmare for the White House. This thing is done for them. The criminal investigation set in motion the fact that the public will be fully informed about the war lie, contrary to White House designs. And the media is sitting on this thing like Vultures. LMAO

It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys :lol:

YEEEEEEEEEE

HAAAAAAAAA


Ls,

You are out of touch with the majority. Bush is tanking big time, a ABC/WP poll shows a large majority thinks the so-called "grown-ups" ( remember the ethical clean sweep bush promised on arrival ?? ) in the administration are more UN ethical than Clintons' guys.

An indictment of a top guy like libby who as we know is joined at the hip to cheney, has legs. The majority of us out un the real world are pretty fed up with the grown ups screwing up the country.

You had better hope libby indeed falls on the sword. A public trial is the last thing our fearless leaders want. Remember how watergate started. A small group of plumbers fixing leaks.

[PaceAdvantage]

Former President George H. W. Bush was right in 1999 when he said, "I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors."
Former Republican National Committee Chair Ed Gillespie was right when he said, "I think if the allegation is true, to reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative—it's abhorrent, and it should be a crime, and it is a crime."

So then, why weren't there any indictments handed down for revealing the identity of an undercover CIA agent?

Simple question. Will there be a simple answer?

[Tom]

I have to protest....Iggy the Idiot promised not to post here after the BC.

He should be helf to his word and banished.

Or better yet, indicted for providing false statements to the Council of Elders.

[highnote]

I have to protest....Iggy the Idiot promised not to post here after the BC.

He should be helf to his word and banished.

Or better yet, indicted for providing false statements to the Council of Elders.

I agree. Goodbye Chuckie.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

Wow,

This is even better than I imagined. The analysts are begging Dubya to come clean, purge his staff of those who lied and start afresh. They are telling Dubya what he will eventually have to do, but watch its gonna take Dubya months and the Trial revelations to do the right thing. I don't see Libby talking and can't see him immediately pleading guilty so its gonna be the trial that forces their hand. Hell they can't talk, everyone knows Cheney is up to his neck in this thing...lol

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9851407/

This is just too delicious and hasn't even begun yet.

Don't miss Dateline tonight. Joe Wilson is going to be on.

Feeding Frenzy, Feeding Frenzy......Theres blood in the water

LMAO

[eddie10]

LIBBY IS GOING TO BE SQEEZED VERY VERY HARD BECAUSE FITZY IS PISSED TO THINK HE KEPT ON LIEING TO A GRAND JURY TO THIS GUY THE LAW IS SACRED, AND HE WON'T GIVE HIM A BREAK ON TIME UNTIL HE ROLLS OVER ON CHENEY THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THESE NAZI'S.

[Chuckles_the_Clown]

eddie, its possible Scooter Rat Libby takes the hit and waits hopefully for Dubya's end of term pardon. I agree Honey Fitz is gonna squeeze him like the Charmin Man...lol If Dubya has to step down prematurely the speculative pardon of Libby could occur at that time, so Libby man not even serve two full years.

On the other hand the investigation continues, contrary to what some believe the grand jury was extended. In that regard Libby is not out of the woods on other charges being filed and that may be part of the leverage used to get him to talk. It would be very difficult to pardon a man convicted of any form of espionage and it would be very unseemly to pardon a man of a crime the President has said is extremely serious and would result in removal from office.

In the long run Scooter Rat Libby may decide he's on his own and needs to do whats best for him, even if he gets assurances from the White House. We'll see. The ballet in this thing is what makes it such a wonderful spectator sport. The Neo Con's are trying to dance in cowboy boots...lol

At the very least we get a very interesting trial. At best Scooter Rat Libby Rats on his Snake tailed accomplices. You gotta love it.

YEEEEEEEEE
HAAAAAAAA



LIBBY IS GOING TO BE SQEEZED VERY VERY HARD BECAUSE FITZY IS PISSED TO THINK HE KEPT ON LIEING TO A GRAND JURY TO THIS GUY THE LAW IS SACRED, AND HE WON'T GIVE HIM A BREAK ON TIME UNTIL HE ROLLS OVER ON CHENEY THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THESE NAZI'S.