You get what you pay for.

[Tom Barrister]

I was sitting in one of the bigger racebooks in Vegas Saturday. A few friends and I were batting the usual horsey topics around. I was waiting on a couple of horses that were on my watch list. The horses fit their races well and figured to get off at decent odds. Both were at major tracks. I usually bet from home; I was at the racebook that day because one of my horses was in a race in which the brother of one of the racebook regulars owned another horse who was dropping to half its last claiming price. It was listed as the favorite and figured to get off at even money or lower. The trainer liked to drop horses this way when they were trying, and also when he wanted to get rid of the horse. The regular, Jack, would know which situation that horse fit into.

Jack told us: "The horse isn't right. He hurt himself, and he's been sick---that's why he's been off two months. They're hoping somebody will claim him."

"Then he won't be in the money?" I asked.

"I doubt it," Jack said. "They're going to take him right out to the lead, and if he somehow holds on, then he holds on. But they expect that he'll have several elephants on his back by the time he hits the stretch, and they'd be thrilled to get any kind of a check. They haven't been training him much because he was sick. Like I said, they're hoping somebody bites and claims him."

He then asked me if I had any horses, and I told him about the horse in his race. Jack knows how to keep his mouth shut, and so do the other regulars, and they don't bet much, so it wouldn't affect the odds any.

About a half hour before the first race I was waiting on (the one that the regular's brother didn't have a horse in), a guy by the name of Bert hustled up to us. Bert is a lawyer who comes out to Vegas a few weekends a year, mainly during football season. Bert likes to mooch off of others. If you go out to dinner with Bert, he'll stall around for you to pay the bill, then he'll leave about 5% for the tip, expecting you to make the other 10% right. He's always bumming picks off of people, and "thanks' is the best you'll get if you give him a winner. It isn't that I needed the money he'd give me for a tip, but it was the principle of the thing. All of us in our group contributed to each other's bottom line by sharing what we knew. In Bert's case, we never got any information in return, and since Bert bet some big numbers, it could hurt the mutuel, especially at the smaller tracks. Why feed him winners which cost us money and get nothing back for it? Besides, the guy was an arrogant snobbish type, and none of us liked him.

Bert came up to us and asked if we had anything. All of us knew how he was, and we all shook our heads. Bert was adamant: "Look, I'm stuck five thousand playing craps, and I need an out."

I said: "Five dimes is chump change to you, Bert. And I have a couple of horses I'm waiting on. But why should I give them to you? You never take care of me when I give you winners."

Bert's face lit up when I told him I had a couple of horses. "I will this time, Tom," Bert assured me. "I promise."

I doubted it, but what did I have to lose? The first horse was going off at a major track, so his bet wouldn't hurt the odds any. "Okay," I said, "I'll trust you this once. Come back in half an hour."

"What's the name of the horse?" he prodded.

"You're not getting that, Bert," I told him. "I'll take your money, make the bet, and give you the tickets."

"That isn't going to work," he told me. Pushy, annoying little twit he was.

"Fine," I replied. "If you change your mind, let me know." I added "Oh, and I already made my bets, so don't plan on following me to the window."

Bert seethed. He always wanted to be in control. I suppose that's a lawyer thing. "Fine, I'll be back."

Twenty minutes later, he came back. "Is the race on the track yet?"

"Yes," I told him.

"What track?" he asked.

"One of the ones up there," I told him. They had eight tracks running at that point, and I wasn't going to let him manipulate me into narrowing it down.

"What kind of odds is the horse getting off at?"

"Somewhere between 5-1 and 15-1," I told him.

He glared at me, then peeled off five C's and handed it to me.

I nodded and told him I'd go buy the tickets a little closer to post time. A few minutes later I put his money on the horse and came back to my seat.

"Give me the tickets," he told me.

I shook my head. "When the race goes off, no sooner," I told him.

As soon as the horses were all loaded, I took the tickets out, and when they left the gate, I handed them to Bert. He looked at them, then at his form, then glared at me. "That horse has no chance! You gave me a stiff!"

Doh, if he had all the best numbers and form, he wouldn't be 7-1, Stupid. I wanted to cold-cock the SoB but held my temper.

The horse laid a bit off the pace, made his move late in the turn, and had a bit of work to beat another longshot, but he got the job done by a length at 7-1 odds. I guesstimated that Bert's $500 lowered the mutuel by maybe 60 cents, which meant that it cost me $30 for my $100 bet.

Bert ran to the cashier without even a word. After he got his money, he came back and said: "Okay, now I'm only $1,500 stuck."

"You're thirty-five-hundred winner by me," I reminded him.

"That doesn't count," he told me. "You don't get paid till you get me out."

I was expecting that. "Sounds fair," I nodded to him. "The next horse isn't going for about an hour. Come back then."

After he left, Jack said: "Is that guy for real? How could you tell him it was okay?"

"I already know how this is going to turn out," I told Jack. "If the next horse wins, he'll collect his money and then come back to me and tell me that he hbas to pay his marker, then he'll be back and settle up. And of course won't see him until next time."

"And you're going to let him do that to you?" Jack asked.

"Yep, why not?" I told him. "Life's too short to worry about people like Bert."

That didn't make sense to Jack, and honestly, it didn't make sense to me, either.

About 30 minutes later, Bert came back.

"I just got my $5,000 back from the craps table," he told us.

"Good," I told him. "Now you can settle with me for the $3,500 you won off of my pick."

You could hear the wheels turning in his head, as he realized his mistake. He quickly blurted: "I mean I got the other $1,500 back. I still need to be winner for the day before I can pay you."

"Okay by me," I said. I told him that the next race was about 40 minutes away, and he left.

One of the other regulars came up to us, a guy named Mitch who liked to play horses and shoot dice. "Is that guy with you?" he asked.

We told him that Bert most definitely wasn't with us.

"Okay then," Mitch said, "because that guy just had a hot hand at the dice table. He must have rolled for a half-hour, and he was betting blacks. He took a stack of pink chips and a half a rack of black off the table. I made a few hundred off the hand myself."

"How much did he buy in for?" I asked.

"A dime," Mitch replied.

A stack of pink ($500) was $10,000, and a half rack of black was another $5,000, so Bert dragged $15,000 from the dice table, for a $14,000 profit. Bert would never change. Stiff whoever he could. Lied about getting even, then lied more to avoid giving me anything.

I ambled out to the pit looking for Bert. He wasn't there. I spotted him in the coffee shop. He wouldn't be doing any gambling before he rejoined us to get down on the race.

He returned a few minutes early. "I just blew three thousand back," he lied. "I need a good one, Tom."

I'd already made all my bets for the race in question. I told him to wait a while. He sat down. About five minutes to post for the race I was betting, I turned to him. "Okay, you can make this bet yourself. This horse isn't going to be 7-1 like the other horse was, but it's about as sure as a horse gets to do what it's supposed to. And if it wins, I expect to be paid."

"Oh, I will, I promise," Bert assured me.

"Okay, I'll take your word for it," I said. I pointed to the program.

I already knew what was coming. "You're kidding?" Bert said. "I already liked him myself. Why would I pay you for something I already knew?" He shrugged. "If it wins, I'll give you a hundred or something." He said it in a way that made it sound like he was being a big man by giving me anything. He left for the windows.

Before Jack could say a word, I put up a hand. "He'll pay us more than a hundred, trust me."

This horse was also running at a major track, and I doubted Bert would hurt the odds much. I wasn't disappointed to see him handing the cashier several pink chips, probably $5,000 he'd taken from the dice pit, plus a wrapper of hundreds, another $5,000. That would mean Bert put $10,000 down on the horse.

He came back. "I put a thousand down on it," he lied.

We watched the race. Jack's brother's horse, who got off at 4/5, went right out to the lead as expected. My horse tracked him in second, about a length behind, then moved around him entering the far turn. The favorite held him off until the upper stretch. Then my horse, which went off at 10-1, started to pull away from the favorite, but had to deal with two other horses, which happened to be the two other logical contenders in the race. He held off one, but got headed by the other at the wire. That wasn't what I'd hoped for, but knowing the heavy favorite would probably run out, I had him in the exacta and trifecta with the other two horses, and both paid well, and I made almost as much on that race as I did on the winner earlier. Jack did well, too. It was all we could do to keep sad faces and shake our heads at the results.

Bert didn't fare as well. "You stupid Mother F***er!" he shouted at me. "You can't pick sh*t! Now you know why I never tip your worthless A**!" He stormed out of there.

"Gee, Bert," I said in a quiet voice that the rapidly departing a**hole couldn't hear, "maybe if you'd done right in the first place, I wouldn't have given you that odds-on stiff."

[Suff]

Surprised no one responded to this story.


Although it was in painstaking detail, I thought it was a good story.

My particular view of money is that it is only something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.

Martin Sheen used that line in Wall Street, but I coined it years before.

I spend money like I'm going to the electric chair at the end of the week.

The old man told me young and often.

Always be the first guy with your hand in your pocket.

Honorable but its probably why I'm still working for living.

Anyway. Good Story Tom. I often wonder about people. If a guy is short that's one thing, but to be throwing 5 dimes at the Crap table and not even offer to pick up dinner, or a round of drinks, is low ball shit.

More people than we'd like, operate that way.

[highnote]

I just read and enjoyed the story.

[keilan]

Yeah Tom I’ve come across a couple guys like that before but the money they played for was somewhat less than your friend, though the guy in my story is wealthy by most standards. He might spend 10 or 15k before he gets to the otb, he bets football and golf’s everyday for large coin.

Someone pointed me out to him maybe 10-12 years ago and he comes over and asks if he can buy me a drink and if I like anything in tonight’s card. I tell him there’s a horse in the 7th that I’m gonna spend a few bucks on. The horse wins at 13-1 or there abouts and he comes back over to my table and is pretty excited, picks up my tab for the evening and slides me a couple hun. Later I stop by the teller and ask her to show me his winning tickets; he had the triactor one time which paid $6900 if I remember correctly.

Next time I come in he sees me and comes over and makes small talk and again asks if I like anything, again the horse wins and he takes down another 3 or 4k. He comes by afterwards and palms me one bill. I’m sitting there thinking a guy I don’t even know on two plays takes 10k+ and passes me a lousy 3 hun and buys a couple drinks. I’m sitting having a beer chatting with the bartender when the guy and his wife jump into their $100 jag and leave.

Next time I see him he’s with is golf buddies and they’re smoking cigars, drinking and acting like only millionaires will when amongst us regular guys. I decide then, if/when he should come over to my table again looking for bones I’ll start feeding him. Of course he comes over and puts his arm around my shoulder acting like I’m some long lost pal so I smile and give him a horse that could still be running. That night I gave him two horses that didn’t hit the board.

Over the course of the next 6-12 months he was cautious but he would see me cash large and occasionally ask for a horse and each time the horse finished up the track. It was after one of these races he comes up to me and asks why I’m stiffing him. I smiled and told him I didn’t like the way he “profit shared” he could either be a little more standup or find someone else to fill his pockets.

I still see him from time to time and he still asks “who I like” or “if I want to share a p4 ticket” Usually I give him my best play of the day and keep moving. He sends the girls by with drinks every once in a while but I really don’t know if he’s won much or not, most of my play is from home now so I consider it “pro bono”. :)

[Dave Schwartz]

Great stories.

Thanks.

Dave Schwartz

[Tote Master]

TomB (on a different thread)
Most trainers either don't bet or don't bet enough to affect the pools. Originally Posted by Tote Master (same different thread)
I'll just add some more insight to Mr. Ainsile’s expression by saying “Inside information is for the sparrows (by Ainsile), but Inside money is for the hawks”(added by TM). TomB (same different thread)
Since you've proven that you have no idea about stables, owners, or the backstretch, it's obvious that your "inside money" theories are full of holes. No substance. Not rooted in reality. You're exposed as a fraud.
You may now twist everything I said around and say the opposite---that's your game plan, right? Actually Tom, I have no game plan what-so-ever and I certainly don’t have to twist anything around. You’ve conveniently done that for yourself, if we’re to believe your little fairy tale!TomB
I was at the racebook that day because one of my horses was in a race in which the brother of one of the racebook regulars owned another horse who was dropping to half its last claiming price. It was listed as the favorite and figured to get off at even money or lower. The trainer liked to drop horses this way when they were trying, and also when he wanted to get rid of the horse. The regular, Jack, would know which situation that horse fit into.
Jack told us: "The horse isn't right. He hurt himself, and he's been sick---that's why he's been off two months. They're hoping somebody will claim him."

"Then he won't be in the money?" I asked.

"I doubt it," Jack said. "They're going to take him right out to the lead, and if he somehow holds on, then he holds on. But they expect that he'll have several elephants on his back by the time he hits the stretch, and they'd be thrilled to get any kind of a check. They haven't been training him much because he was sick. Like I said, they're hoping somebody bites and claims him."
So, I guess getting it right from the horse’s mouth is something more then “Inside Information”? And I thought everyone around here believed this type of information was for the “Sparrows”?? At least I'll admit to being a Hawk. So,
Will the Real Sparrow Please Stand Up!?

[midnight]

Why did you hijack the man's thread? Your agenda against the man doesn't belong here. It has nothing to do with what was posted. This isn't the first thread you've done this to or the first person you've stalked.

I'm out of here.

[Tom Barrister]

At least I'll admit to being a Hawk.

I was thinking you are a different variety of bird.

The noisy kind that nobody wants around alive.

The kind that we all like to have for lunch.

A turkey.

By the way, who invited you to bring your vendetta in here?

The truth in the other thread hurt you, little boy?

How do any of the things you quoted in your inappropriate post have anything to do with what I wrote in the story? Provide relevance. Or be branded clueless.

Again :D

[Tote Master]

Midnight
Why did you hijack the man's thread? Your agenda against the man doesn't belong here. It has nothing to do with what was posted. This isn't the first thread you've done this to or the first person you've stalked. You must be joking! Right?
Please don’t insinuate that the things that YOU continually do on the PA forum as being traits of others. Its obvious that those using terms like “stalker” are also thinking in those terms.
Its funny though, that when someone makes erroneous accusations in one respect and is suddenly found to be saying something else, when its brought to light its considered “hijacking”. Give me a break!
I have no “agenda” for TomB or anyone else on this forum and I speak my thoughts like everyone else.

By the way Tom, I just wanted to add that, we might have different philosophies when it comes to this game, but if you really dealt with a jerk like Bert in the way you described, I consider you a true gentleman!

Best of Luck!

[BetHorses!]

I’m sitting there thinking a guy I don’t even know on two plays takes 10k+ and passes me a lousy 3 hun and buys a couple drinks. I’m sitting having a beer chatting with the bartender when the guy and his wife jump into their $100 jag and leave.



I smiled and told him I didn’t like the way he “profit shared” he could either be a little more standup or find someone else to fill his pockets.

:)


How much more do you think he should have given you? I have mixed feelings about this. I think he was standup. He's risking his money and you are not reimbursing him if picks lose unless you have a sheet like arrangement

What about my friends who bet about a 1/10 of what I do, if I make 20,000 and they make 2,000 should they be standup with me?

Here's a story about one of those friends he a $2-$20 bettor but likes to wheel my "key" horses in pick 3's and 4's.... He calls me one night
"I am at the lands got anything 5 minutes to the 5th"

Yes and I told him my numbers are 5-1-4-8

What about the 6th, he asks

nobody I replied

He asks about the 7th

I tell him its juicy

1-2-3-4 and the favorite is not there

He says thanks

Here's what happens:

The 8 wins the 5th race as the longest shot of my contenders and he knows to always key the longest in exotics-- exacta hit and paid like $250 but blew the tri....Phone doesn't ring hmmm he screwed it up. I call him and he tells me he screwed up and cashed nothing and will hang for the 7th then has to leave. By the way this is the trotters

The 6th race was won by a $120 horse, then I notice the Pick 3 will pays with the horses in the 7th....Interesting! The only winning combos are with my numbers 1-2-3-4 (do not remember the actual numbers but 1-2-3-4 for this story) I did not play it. And the favorite is paying 2 out of 3 as well as every other horse but my numbers. Sounds like he went 4 by All by 4 -- for $1 its $160 and he's been known to do that so I call....no answer, call again no answer, finally call again and I asked if he's alive in the pick 3 and of course he says with his nervous voice "no you didn't give me anybody in the 6th." One of the contenders wins and the pick pays $15,000. To this day he says he didn't hit it
but lets say he did should he give me anything? Should he be standup? Should I accept if he is standup?

By the way I enjoyed Tom's story also.

[Tom Barrister]

Its funny though, that when someone makes erroneous accusations in one respect and is suddenly found to be saying something else, when its brought to light its considered “hijacking”. Give me a break!



That doesn't wash. Again: where did I say anything that contradicted anything I've said some place else? Generalities don't work. I want specifics.

[Tote Master]

by TomB
I was thinking you are a different variety of bird.
The noisy kind that nobody wants around alive.
The kind that we all like to have for lunch.
A turkey. by Tote Master
By the way Tom, I just wanted to add that, we might have different philosophies when it comes to this game, but if you really dealt with a jerk like Bert in the way you described, I consider you a true gentleman!Well Tom perhaps I jumped to conclusions and misjudged your character! I apologize. Your comments about your good friend Bert were not even close to the above. I guess you treat people that you know and take advantage of you differently. I will certainly argue my points, but I will not attack anyone personally, by making immature comments. by TomB
By the way, who invited you to bring your vendetta in here?
The truth in the other thread hurt you, little boy? I have no vendetta, and to be perfectly honest I really didn’t want to make you look like a fool in the other thread by demonstrating first of all that (as much as you'd like to believe it), a horse like any other animal cannot reason. It may be hard for you to believe, but plain and simple, they really don’t know they exist. (Unless of course you’re thinking about Mr. Ed). by TomBHow do any of the things you quoted in your inappropriate post have anything to do with what I wrote in the story? Provide relevance. Or be branded clueless. I thought it was obvious, but again very simple: You quoted my thoughts and expression of “Inside Money” as being… what did you say ? by TomB....it's obvious that your "inside money" theories are full of holes. No substance. Not rooted in reality. You're exposed as a fraud. Yet you turn right around and validate that the “Inside Information” received (as described in your story) as being totally contradictory to Mr. Ainsile’s (very true) statement. (Which I assume you believe?) Or maybe you don’t consider the information that you received from Jack as the “Insider” type, or maybe you don’t believe Mr. Ainsile either?. Who knows!

Anyway, I’m not about to lower myself to the standards of others by issuing or retaliating with personal attacks. That’s not my game, my agenda or my style. So take it for whatever its worth, and good luck to you.

[detectivelemmycaut]

Hi,

I may get blasted for this but if I ask you who you like in the 5th at Belmont, either say screw you and go away or charge me up front. Tell me it's 10 grand for your pick and if the horse runs out are you going to pay me the money back? If I bet 1,000 on your horse or hot pick to win and it runs up the track how much of my 1,000 are you going to give back? Sell your picks or don"t give them out. It sounds like you give out 100% winners if that is the case I will buy your picks and give you 50% of the profits plus the money you charge....... True Mr. Law man may be a bit of a hack but he asks and you give. You give with the expectation that he will give you money back if the horse wins. Don't have that expectation, he owes you 0 if you give it away. Ask a hooker for free sex sometime and if you get it and it's good that's great but what if after she asks you for money? What now.....

[Tom Barrister]

If you don't see how you were rude in butting into this thread with your vendetta from months ago, then you're either vain, ignoring the obvious, or more clueless than you were given credit for.

You still haven't answered my question. How did I contradict myself? You talk a good game, but you don't produce the goods. Generalities won't work. Give specifics.

I'm done replying until you stop blowing smoke and get down to brass tacks.

[Tote Master]

By TomB
If you don't see how you were rude in butting into this thread with your vendetta from months ago, then you're either vain, ignoring the obvious, or more clueless than you were given credit for. Oh, so now I’m being rude? But I guess its okay for you to post your enlightening comments wherever and whenever you choose? Months ago? Try September 19th, or is that beyond your conception of time?
By TomB
You still haven't answered my question. How did I contradict myself? You talk a good game, but you don't produce the goods. Generalities won't work. Give specifics. As far as I’m concerned, my comments (and yours) speak for themselves. I’m sorry if they’re going over your head, but I thought I was pretty clear about your previous statements. I’m done here too. So, please feel free to continue with your stories. I promise not to spoil your fun.

But the next time you post your mindless and derogatory comments on something I’ve written, be prepared.

[Fwizard]

I have no problem giving people my picks and don't want anything if the pick wins because 99% of the time I have made money on it and satisfied with that--what pisses me off is when some goof asks me for my selection(he asks me --I don't go to him and say "I've got one") and when it runs up the track he comes back and says "I woulda won if I didn't use your pick"--I just want to smack the crap out of him---once , because he is an ass and twice because I am sure that I lost a lot more than he did on the race....:mad:

[cnollfan]

How much more do you think he should have given you? I have mixed feelings about this. I think he was standup. He's risking his money and you are not reimbursing him if picks lose unless you have a sheet like arrangement

I tend to agree with BetHorses on this. While the actual dollar amount of reimbursement by Keilan's guy may have left something to be desired, and perhaps his millionaire attitude was irritating, he did make a couple of goodwill gestures, and continues to attempt to pass the peace pipe. Tom's Bert character is beneath contempt -- I would simply ignore this guy if at all possible, and if not, give him the favorite, preferably one with a few elephants aboard. Both stories were great.

[Tom Barrister]

Oh, so now I’m being rude? But I guess its okay for you to post your enlightening comments wherever and whenever you choose? Months ago? Try September 19th, or is that beyond your conception of time?
As far as I’m concerned, my comments (and yours) speak for themselves. I’m sorry if they’re going over your head, but I thought I was pretty clear about your previous statements. I’m done here too. So, please feel free to continue with your stories. I promise not to spoil your fun.

But the next time you post your mindless and derogatory comments on something I’ve written, be prepared.

Not gonna work, little boy. You keep evading the issue, and until you provide proof, admit you're full of sh*t, this thread is locked or I'm banned, I'm NEVER going to let it go. I don't let people slide when they accuse.

Provide something of substance to back up your claim that I contradicted myself. Not generalities or finger pointing. Something that directly points to a contradiction that you accuse me of. That shouldn't be too hard for a man of your literacy and supposed savvy.

[BetHorses!]

cmon Tote and Tom give it a rest. This can be a great discussion, already has a few great stories.

[toetoe]

TB,

I defy any baseball hardboot to come up with stories to match the stuff that goes on every day in horse racing.
We had a very small-time thing at work. The pathological loser that took bets for the gang would bet any winnings back, without checking with us. I was considered a hardass for telling him what he was full of. Here was the forgivers' line: "If the horse won, you wouldn't refuse the profits, would you?" Well, not only might I refuse them, but the impossibly few times that the horse came in, we would never be told, and most important, there never WAS another horse, except when Gambler Joe had to get his wagering fix, and in those cases it was free losing. Well, it lasted for one day with me.
The main thing we should see in the 'Bert' case is the depression of the odds. That's a killer. Can you imagine hitting for a sign-up with a character like that? A nightmare. This pursuit is supposed to be fun.

[Dave Schwartz]

Toetoe,

Good post.


Dave Schwartz

[keilan]

Type “A” receiver of tout

- the guy’s a complete stranger to me
- wouldn’t have approached me unless he thought I could help him
- couldn’t pick the winner in a 2 horse field
- It was our local track where the handle is small
- Larger bettor




Type “B” receiver of tout

- the guy’s a friend of mine or a regular
- just being friendly
- another player who I respect for his handicapping and shares
- track with a larger handle
- typical bettor $20 - $50 range

Type “A” handicapper -- A losing player

Type “B” handicapper – A winning player


Is it usual that I might treat or have different expectations from these two guys?
Did I provide him horses that produced large profits?
Did I give him 10 losers before he caught something?
Am I a type A or B handicapper and should/does that make a difference?


In my business referrals cost you 25% and you still have to put the deal together, something to think about before you judge my greed level. :)

[CryingForTheHorses]

That doesn't wash. Again: where did I say anything that contradicted anything I've said some place else? Generalities don't work. I want specifics.

I have read your story and have saw people like this myself,When you give a man a horse to bet, Why wouldnt you bet "big bucks" yourself?..I just love you guys, IF you were so sure about this horse then you should have been going to the bank, I also get a "kick" out of the "tout" at your racebook..Trainers do drop horses to win,Yes sometimes they are hoping to lose them, WHAT I dont like is when you said he said....IF they are trying....A slimeball further invoking thoughts into the heads of bettors so the racing game never loses the image of being corrupt, I tend to stay away from people like your friend, AS much as he bets..He is a loser!!

[PaceAdvantage]

What the hell is going on here? Someone is messing with my board, so it's time to clean house. I just wish I weren't so confused. Please refresh my memory as to who Tom Barrister is, and why he is fighting with Tote Master?

We shall assemble the council of elders (as soon as I figure out who they are) and vote on who will be put on the chopping block ASAP.

Ship up or shape out.....wait a minute....shape up or ship out...yeah, that's the ticket.

Come on folks, you know better than this. When it gets to the point of forcing midnight to resign, it's time for me to step into the picture, and that's when things get ugly....in more ways than one! :lol:

[how cliche]

A similar story at Golden Gate Fields happened to me, but with the poor folks who attend that track, rather than the other half. I should preclude my story by letting everyone know that Golden Gate fields patrons, while dedicated players are in large numbers the shiftless welfare recipient types. These kinds of guys are compulsive gamblers who don't know the meaning of the word pass when it comes to a horse race.

I'd become quite chummy with one of them and even thought I'd found myself a good "ten percenter" who I used on a few occassions without incident. We'd talk about horses we were gonna bet and we'd give some winners and some losers as track buddies are wont to do. He did however have some crew who I didn't trust at all. Thugs.

One day one of my plays of the year type horses was running at Fairplex. I even remember her name. Miss Boomtown. Upon entry to the track I spotted my "friend" and he asked me if there was anything good on the day. I told him something I'd never said to him before. "Don't bet another horse all day. Save your money & play Miss Boomtown in the 8th at Fairplex. You won't need another."

Miss Boomtown won by several lengths at 12-1 & I thought we'd both cleaned up. Shortly after the race he and his crew came up to me demanding loans. "Loans!" As if they were entitled to it. I'd done enough. I gave them a 12-1 winner. Turns out they'd pissed away their bankrolls on loser after loser & were broke by the time she raced. Couple this with the fact that they knew I won left me in a precarious situation.

I declined to lend them anything, knowing I'd never see the money again. They started to get angry, "How can you show someone a ticket like that and not lend him some money?!" I bit the bullet and gave them $100 to split between the 4 of them. That gave them enough to play 1 or 2 more races a piece & bought me a little time. In the meantime I located a security officer and had him escort me to my vehicle. From there I kept checking my mirrors to ensure I wasn't being tailed.

It was a good win, but my loss of a friend was the pits. I still see him out there.

[John]

This is the race track and there are a millon storys,This is one of them.

[Tom]

No school today, boys?

Please, grow up and stop destroing interesting threads.
Nobody wants to share your hissy fits.
Ever hear of email, PM? Face to face?
:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[BillW]

No school today, boys?

Face to face?


back to back - ten paces? :rolleyes:

[John]

" Sometimes the boys have to vent a little."

BIll Parcells,on Drew Bledsoe and Keyshawn Johnson

[toetoe]

Cleesh,

My cheap-ass nature would trump my fear, and I would not give over a penny. That ghettoid logic is indeed believable at GGF. What a hellhole, and a huge turnout squashed into a small space. What if I just screwed up my face into my most sheepish loser's grin and said, "Dang, I just lost it all back on the 16th at Thistledown!" I can put myself into your shoes, however. GGF is the only track that I've seen any slightly violent behavior. Unlike baseball games, race days don't have fights. They just don't, as a rule.

[andicap]

Great stories, but I'm wondering, Tom, if someone stiffs you after a couple of good tips, why would you keep feeding him? You were kind of leading him on by continuing to give him winners when it was clear from his behavior in the past that he was a lying low-life scum. It sounds like this has been going on tor some time and it was the first time someone "taught him a lesson." No wonder he was surprised and upset.

In a sense you were "enabling" his behavior. Would you continue to lend money to someone who never paid you back? If you had been buying drinks for an alcoholic for a while, -- knowing he had a problem -- wouldn't he be entitled to be pissed if you start cutting him off? You know what the outcome will be so why enable the outrageoius behavior.

To me it's the old, "Fool me once... fool me twice... ." cliche.

Bert deserved what he got for lying -- to me that was the worst offense of Tom's and Bethorses' protagonists. Not that they wouldn't pay up, but the cheap, petty fibs. Personally I would tip someone 5-10% if they were feeding me nice winners, but others might feel differently. Fine. To me that's not the issue here.

I agree with the others that if you don't like their parsimonious ways, don't deal with them or charge them for your expertise. If I'm starting a tout service, I'd give prospective clients a couple for free to hook them before charging them.

But by continuing to feed them winning horses time after time after they have shown they will not reward you ...well you are just asking for it. An expectation of behavior -- on both sides -- has been set. If you suddently get mad and start giving him losers, you are guility of having unrealistic expectations. It's a classic passive-aggressive behavior.

[Dave Schwartz]

Personally, I have a bone in my head which prevents me from playing someone else's picks. (Call it a personality flaw.)

I have learned over the years that when someone asks, "Who do you like?" I always give them the same answer: "The favorite."

After awhile they stop asking.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz
(Who is disappointed that the rep points are gone since he discovered "pity points." LOL)

[DrugSalvastore]

Personally, I have a bone in my head which prevents me from playing someone else's picks. (Call it a personality flaw.)

Yea...exactly. There is no one person on earth, who could tell me they love a horse...and I would play the horse only because of that. I don't really care who they are. A tout isn't worth a damn, no matter who it comes from, unless a convincing story goes with it.

Another thing...., I've always thought it to be extemely sleazy to expect someone to give you a cash tip because you gave them a winning horse that led to a nice profit.

I have accepted cash tips from player's who've scored nicely on a horse of mine on numerous occasions....but to actually get upset because they don't tip you is pretty silly. I just like the ego rush that I get when I give someone a horse, and it wins, and we both score nicely. It makes me feel good about myself...and it's only in times like that where people really get to see how clever and studious a bettor I am...if I always kept quiet about everything, no one would ever know how good or bad I really am. I like to tell people who I like...I'm never the type to keep my opinion to myself on anything.

I don't really play tracks with real small pools---but I guess the whole "loose lips sink ships" line might be accurate at those kind of tracks.

[NY BRED]

perhaps, if you ever deal with mr b again(why, i'll never guess),and
hit for a big #, you should demand you and mr.b go to a craps
table and parlay the winnings together.

if bert sevens out(presuming he is a "right bettor"), you could
scream at him in front of a group of players as a pay back,
or hug him is he hits his point(s).,and immediately collect

after reading your story, this thought would present a
no loss situation regardless of any potential outcome ...


just a thought:bang:

[BetHorses!]

Bert deserved what he got for lying -- to me that was the worst offense of Tom's and Bethorses' protagonists. Not that they wouldn't pay up, but the cheap, petty fibs.



Exactly. I would of been happy for him and then would expect at least an offer to buy me dinner. To me, that would have been the right thing to do.

Good Post andicap

[cnollfan]

Personally, I have a bone in my head which prevents me from playing someone else's picks. (Call it a personality flaw.)

It has taken me decades to be able to play someone else's picks, but I'm getting much better at it. It was an ego thing. But now I accept that 1) I have friends who are very knowledgable about racing, 2) in the age of simulcasting there are more than a dozen bettable tracks going at once, way too many for li'l ol me to look at, 3) a winner's a winner.

Using some betting software that tracked my bets finally won me over. The software was cumbersome and I'm not using it anymore, but for a couple of years I entered all of my win wagers along with the primary reason for the play.
As it turned out one of my best categories was "other people's picks."

[keilan]

[QUOTE=DrugSalvastore] Another thing...., I've always thought it to be extemely sleazy to expect someone to give you a cash tip because you gave them a winning horse that led to a nice profit. QUOTE]


The more you post the less creditability you have with me, you really are naïve.

How do you treat people that

- do "good by you" when they don't have to?
- whom have no relationship until you approached them requesting information
- do you think they are "sleazy" because they expect you to behave as a standup guy?

This is par mutual wagering and many players locally consider me to have good opinion, otherwise I highly doubt complete unknowns/regulars would approach me seeking an opinion/tout.

There are a few responses I could offer them when approached

A) take a hike,
B) give them the betting fav (which I've done on occasion)
C) give them what I consider a horse to make some money on.

Next question -- how long does one feed larger bettors high odds winning horses for free?

Maybe you're all mouth around the track and you're opinion isn't sought by anyone? Or maybe you're just ungrateful and toss around words like sleazy so you never feel guilty about your behavior

[Tom Barrister]

All this controversy over a story....

[highnote]

The reason for the controversy is simple. Everyone's brain is wired differently. We all see the world differently. When someone replies to a posting with a difference of opinion it is not necessarily because the person disagrees or is correct. It is because this is the way a person makes sense of the world -- by seeing the situation from a different angle.

For example:

Imagine there are 3 coins on a table -- a penny, a nickle and a dime. Reply to me with your FIRST THOUGHTS on what you think is the relationship between these three coins.

If several people reply, I can almost guarantee you that not everyone will see the same relationship.

Go ahead. Give it a try.

[DrugSalvastore]

[QUOTE=keilan The more you post the less creditability you have with me, you really are naïve.

How do you treat people that

- do "good by you" when they don't have to?
- whom have no relationship until you approached them requesting information
- do you think they are "sleazy" because they expect you to behave as a standup guy?

This is par mutual wagering and many players locally consider me to have good opinion, otherwise I highly doubt complete unknowns/regulars would approach me seeking an opinion/tout.

There are a few responses I could offer them when approached

A) take a hike,
B) give them the betting fav (which I've done on occasion)
C) give them what I consider a horse to make some money on.

Next question -- how long does one feed larger bettors high odds winning horses for free?

Maybe you're all mouth around the track and you're opinion isn't sought by anyone? Or maybe you're just ungrateful and toss around words like sleazy so you never feel guilty about your behavior[/QUOTE]

* As for the creditablity I have with you.....I really don't care if I have any. We don't even know each others names.

* I don't see what your problem is actually. If you don't want to give people horses than don't.

* as for your question "how long does one feed larger bettors winning horses for free?" Pretty simple, until you ask him to pay you or until you don't feel like "feeding" him anymore.

I have my own money, for God's sakes, I'll accept any money anyone tries to give me, or any "free plays" they put me up for on the next horse "I like." But, if someone cashes off a horse I gave them, and they don't feel it appropriate to "hook me up"---I really don't care one bit. I mean, collecting cash tips from other people, isn't something I worry about after I just cashed a nice bet on a horse.

When I used the word sleazy I wasn't referring to you---I guess I just kind of overuse that word a little too much---sort of like how some people constantly overuse the word clown. You know what I mean.

[betchatoo]

This does remind me of a personal story that's bothered me for years. A few years back I was pouring over my racing form when the winners of the 1st and 2nd races jumped off the page at me. I also found a couple of other races that I liked. I called a few of my friends that I knew were available and asked them if they wanted to go out to the track (this was before on-line or even simulcasting). Well the winner of the 1st paid $15.80 and the winner of the second paid $18.60 and the double paid $180 and change and we were off to a great start. The next race I liked was the 5th and the horse paid $12. I had to leave after that, but before I did I gave them 4 horses to box in the 9th race tri and we agreed to meet for drinks later that night. I played the race before I left, but now, since I was sure I was a god, instead of boxing the horses I played the one I had ordained to win over the other 3 in a $20 key.

When we met later i found out the horse I liked broke badly and got up for 2nd. The tri paid a little over $1,400 and my friends had it. We drank for a while and then had some dinner. At no point did one of my friends offer to pick up my tab. Now these were good people and I'd never known them to be cheap, but I never really felt the same about them after that night.

Was I being petty to expect them to do something like that?

[keilan]

Didn't think you'd answer the questions



How do you treat people that

- do "good by you" when they don't have to?
- whom have no relationship until you approached them requesting information
- do you think they are "sleazy" because they expect you to behave as a standup guy?

[keilan]

This does remind me of a personal story that's bothered me for years. A few years back I was pouring over my racing form when the winners of the 1st and 2nd races jumped off the page at me. I also found a couple of other races that I liked. I called a few of my friends that I knew were available and asked them if they wanted to go out to the track (this was before on-line or even simulcasting). Well the winner of the 1st paid $15.80 and the winner of the second paid $18.60 and the double paid $180 and change and we were off to a great start. The next race I liked was the 5th and the horse paid $12. I had to leave after that, but before I did I gave them 4 horses to box in the 9th race tri and we agreed to meet for drinks later that night. I played the race before I left, but now, since I was sure I was a god, instead of boxing the horses I played the one I had ordained to win over the other 3 in a $20 key.

When we met later i found out the horse I liked broke badly and got up for 2nd. The tri paid a little over $1,400 and my friends had it. We drank for a while and then had some dinner. At no point did one of my friends offer to pick up my tab. Now these were good people and I'd never known them to be cheap, but I never really felt the same about them after that night.

Was I being petty to expect them to do something like that?

My story makes no reference to friends -- hell the guy in my story happens to be very wealthy and a total stranger. I was going to share some other stories but it's getting to a point “why bother".

I treat my friends very well and I'm probably generous to a fault but somehow guys here have interpreted me as some kind of “sleazy money hungry asshole with a problem".

[DrugSalvastore]

Didn't think you'd answer the questions



How do you treat people that

- do "good by you" when they don't have to?
- whom have no relationship until you approached them requesting information
- do you think they are "sleazy" because they expect you to behave as a standup guy?

Okay, whatever.

#1. Thank them and hopefully reciprocate the generosity if that is possible.

#2. "How would I treat people whom have no relationship until you approached them approached them requesting information." Thank them for giving me the info I requested.

#3. explain "stand up guy." ??? Are you implying that you have to hand out money to anyone who wants to help you, or does help you?

Maybe I am really naive---I thought it was a waste of money to tip Manny "the monster" so much as $5 for a table....obviously people (the "standup guys") thought it was appropriate to hand him absurd amounts of money so they can always have a table to sit at.

You sound like a guy who's lived in New York City for a long time. If you haven't, than it seems to me that you have the mentality of a stero-typical New Yorker.

[keilan]

You have the mentality of someone who hasn't lived, and I'm done trading insults

[DrugSalvastore]

I treat my friends very well and I'm probably generous to a fault but somehow guys here have interpreted me as some kind of “sleazy money hungry asshole with a problem".

Why put that crap in quotes.....

No one called you that.

You seem to have a problem, not with something I said earlier, but with me personally, and I think you know what I'm talking about.

Like I said, I don't even know you.., so it's stupid to judge what you don't know. I'll admit, My New York comment was stupid. Sorry.

Whatever man. OXOXOXOXOX
short for hugs, and sloppy man kisses.
I have no use for any beef with you.
Much luv playa. Peace.

[toetoe]

Betch,

I would be sharing a bet with the friends before leaving the track.

DrugS,

Don't you EVER follow up sloppy male osculations with a reference to beef in the very next sentence! My monitor is fogged up indefinitely.

[highnote]

Don't you EVER follow up sloppy male osculations with a reference to beef in the very next sentence! My monitor is fogged up indefinitely.


:eek:

That's the closest I could find to a vomit icon. :D

[Tom]

The reason for the controversy is simple. Everyone's brain is wired differently. We all see the world differently. When someone replies to a posting with a difference of opinion it is not necessarily because the person disagrees or is correct. It is because this is the way a person makes sense of the world -- by seeing the situation from a different angle.

For example:

Imagine there are 3 coins on a table -- a penny, a nickle and a dime. Reply to me with your FIRST THOUGHTS on what you think is the relationship between these three coins.

If several people reply, I can almost guarantee you that not everyone will see the same relationship.

Go ahead. Give it a try.

That's usually all I have in my pocket on the way home from the track!:eek:

But with dime supers, that will be changing soon!:kiss:

[highnote]

That's usually all I have in my pocket on the way home from the track!:eek:

But with dime supers, that will be changing soon!:kiss:


Well, at least you'll still have the penny and nickle in your pocket.

[Dave Schwartz]

Imagine there are 3 coins on a table -- a penny, a nickle and a dime. Reply to me with your FIRST THOUGHTS on what you think is the relationship between these three coins.

John,

Could you explain this please? I have now spent many hours trying to figure out what you had in mind. (No wonder I can't get anything done.)


Dave

[toetoe]

I'm guessing he wants to know which we see as the base. Is the dime 10p, and the nickel 5p, or is the penny n/5, and the dime 2n. Maybe the way is to see the penny as d/10 and the nickel as d/2?

[highnote]

John,

Could you explain this please? I have now spent many hours trying to figure out what you had in mind. (No wonder I can't get anything done.)


Dave


If you show 10 people 3 coins -- penny, nickle, dime -- and then ask them what is their first thought about the relationship between these three coins -- you are likely to get several different answers.

Here are some common responses:

"they are all round."
"they are all coins"
"they are all three different denominations."
"they are not the same size"
"they are different colors"

The point is that everyone's brains are wired differently. Our brains are constantly asking questions. What does this mean to me? In fact, almost everything we think involves asking a question.

The first thing you do when you see these three coins is ask a question -- what do these coins have in common. Or you might ask what is the difference between these coins. It depends on how you're wired.

Some people see differences first and some people see similarities first. It's how we make sense of the world.

I noticed about a year ago that when someone says something to me in a conversation I had a tendency to point out an exception. My wife might say to me, I think the baby's rash is caused by soap. I might respond, yeah, but it could be X it could be Y, etc.

So I have had to learn to respond differently to people because when I point out an alternate explanation they think I am belittling them. I'm not. It's just the way I'm wired.

Other people might reply to "the baby's rash is caused by the soap" with a phrase, "You're probably right. Good point."

Some people, like my father and brother, are what are called "mismatchers". Not matter what you say, they say the opposite.

Here's a conversation with my father: Me, "So you could've made a lot of money buying IBM at 60. "

Dad, "No. It was too risky"

Me, "You're right. You never know. You could have lost it all."

Dad, "Well, not exactly. You just have to be careful."

If I would have said something like, "You couldn't have made any money buying IBM at 60 because it was too risky." He would say, "No. You have to take risks if you want to make money."

For years this frustrated the hell out of me. Now I laugh inside anytime I talk to them because I know why they are doing what they are doing. And we have a great time. I rephrase the questions and they get this funny look on their face as they try to figure out why they are answering differently to the same question.

It's just the way they are wired.

Here is some internal dialogue to show how our minds are constantly asking questions about the environment:

I feel hungry -- should I eat? What should I eat? Am I really hungry enough to eat that?

I'm gonna be late for work. Can I take a shortcut? What will I tell my boss?

etc. etc. etc.

[toetoe]

SJ,

That's a very good take on a behavior I've noticed that I heretofore thought of as pathological. You tell a guy, "I once spent two weeks one night in Philadelphia. Met a gal with a wooden leg, no arms, a glass eye and rubber breasts. Boy, we had us a time." Friend: " I met someone like that in Altoona, only it was a hermaphrodite, with THREE boobs, but at least they were real." I now see that this is a variation on the contrarian gene. Of course, part of it is a failure to self-censor, to step back and self-assess before speaking. Every time someone shares a story, Mary Q. Contrary has to top it with proof of wider experience. The question remains as to why some of us can not squelch it, while the majority of us can.

[highnote]

SJ,

That's a very good take on a behavior I've noticed that I heretofore thought of as pathological. You tell a guy, "I once spent two weeks one night in Philadelphia. Met a gal with a wooden leg, no arms, a glass eye and rubber breasts. Boy, we had us a time." Friend: " I met someone like that in Altoona, only it was a hermaphrodite, with THREE boobs, but at least they were real." I now see that this is a variation on the contrarian gene. Of course, part of it is a failure to self-censor, to step back and self-assess before speaking. Every time someone shares a story, Mary Q. Contrary has to top it with proof of wider experience. The question remains as to why some of us can not squelch it, while the majority of us can.


Maybe Fraud was right about Id, Ego and Super Ego? Maybe some people have stronger Super Ego's and they "speak" louder than the Ego?

This is outside my body of knowledge.

[JustRalph]

John,

Could you explain this please? I have now spent many hours trying to figure out what you had in mind. (No wonder I can't get anything done.)
Dave

My first thought? I used to be able to buy a White Castle Burger for that......

[ezpace]

Surprised no one responded to this story.


Although it was in painstaking detail, I thought it was a good story.

My particular view of money is that it is only something you need in case you don't die tomorrow.

Martin Sheen used that line in Wall Street, but I coined it years before.

I spend money like I'm going to the electric chair at the end of the week.

The old man told me young and often.

[i]Always be the first guy with your hand in your pocket.[

Honorable but its probably why I'm still working for living.

Anyway. Good Story Tom. I often wonder about people. If a guy is short that's one thing, but to be throwing 5 dimes at the Crap table and not even offer to pick up dinner, or a round of drinks, is low ball shit.

More people than we'd like, operate that way.
**************
Well said SUFF... I was told the same by a mentor in a book joint at 16.ys old but he added this: make yourself 3 piles of dough...the billsdough ...the savings.dough . and the gambling dough... help somebody everyday..and don't take any crap from any creeps. .... Guy drove HWT champ JOE LOUIS around (chauffeur) for a while when he wasn't gambling with both hands and chasing girls. ;) ...LOL.. good mentor..

[Dave Schwartz]

John,

LOL- Okay, I get it now.

I guess I was looking for something puzzle oriented... something with a correct answer. <G>


Thanks.

Dave

[toetoe]

Swetye,

That was a Fraudulent slip. At first I thought you were joking, but you actually mistyped, I guess. Very cool.

[falconridge]

Swetye,

That was a Fraudulent slip. At first I thought you were joking, but you actually mistyped, I guess. Very cool.
Cooler still if, as I believe, Swetye didn't mistype. What appears to be a simple lapsus manus is actually Swet's succinct commentary on him whom Vladimir Nabokov called "the Viennese witch-doctor."

That is what you meant, isn't it, Swetye? If so, then deftly done!

Tip o' the cap to Toe, too, for the "Fraudulent slip" jape. Toe's play has a sinister aspect to it, whereas Swet's is simply adroit.

Hmmm ... Lefty and Righty. Ambidextry (having two right hands?) rides again!

[toetoe]

I am dextrous, while YOU, my good man, are sinister.

Lans Manus was a decent sprinter in Ca. Did you know about his entire brother, Glans Manus?

[highnote]

Cooler still if, as I believe, Swetye didn't mistype. What appears to be a simple lapsus manus is actually Swet's succinct commentary on him whom Vladimir Nabokov called "the Viennese witch-doctor."

That is what you meant, isn't it, Swetye? If so, then deftly done!

Tip o' the cap to Toe, too, for the "Fraudulent slip" jape. Toe's play has a sinister aspect to it, whereas Swet's is simply adroit.

Hmmm ... Lefty and Righty. Ambidextry (having two right hands?) rides again!

My unintentional typo created a sort of double entendre Freudian slip.

I am not so adroit as to have been able to design it, but I was adroit to the extent that I was able to recognize the irony when I proofed my post. It seemed interesting, so I left it unchanged.