Someone has to go first......

[Tom]

Racing related, but not handicapping, so I'll ask it here.
I am concerned about the number of tracks that are fattening purses with slot machine money. I like bigger purses and all that, but it is basically welfare-the horsemen are leeching off someone elses game. How long before some bright politcian (there must be one out there) puts two and two together and figures out that the track is the middleman eating up profits?
As a conservative, I have a problem with welfare and leeching, even when it benefits me, at least in the short run. I think the reason why tracks were losing money and people are beind hidden by this quick cash influx and not being sovled. When I went to Woodbine last year, there didn't seem to be a crossover between the casino people and the track people. I t looked like the casino people were well-to-do upscale, bright people with cash. The horse people? Well, I put my wallet in my front pocket and didn't use the bathrooms.
Just concerned.....
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

I used to feel the same way, especially as we watch our sport spiraling downward. However, I have a somewhat new outlook on racing these days. I believe that racing will change just as baseball, football and all the others have adapted the the world of communications.

What does that have to do with it? Nothing, really. But my point is that our game will change. We may not like the changes, any more than I like what has happened to my first love, baseball.

So, if they choose to prop things up with slots, I say, "Great!" You know, until 1986 they were propped up with tax loopholes. When those went away, racing had to decline. As far as I am concerned, let the race goers put there change in a slot machine and come out as purse money.

[yb-boarder1]

OK. Here is the deal. How old are you? Do you play at both horse tracks and casinos? Do you really have a clue what you are talking about or just repeating comments from an article you read or a conversation you overheard?

Facts... Casino numbers have grown tremendously in the last 10 years. Many horse tracks over built just before the casino expansions and increase in simulcast racing. Do you know of any non Indian or non on water casinos that also have a horse track? of course. my favorite example is Prairie Meadows. Favorite because it is the classic case. Prairie Meadows over built as a horse track. It failed. A casino (non-Indian and non on water) was built on the location. The casino is flourishing and subsidizing the horse track. My point is... Had the track not first been there a casino would not be present. Who is actually getting hurt if the casino subsidizes the horse track? You tell me. I also am extremely disappointed that there is not as much "cross over traffic" as I and thousands of others thought there would be. However, almost all casino games are no brainers. Perimutuel wagering is a cereberal game. If the "clientele" impressed you more at the casino level then this is just a bunch of people with money and no interest in much beyond taking a fling at "ca ching" "ca ching" et cetera. Or even more scary, people with money and no brains.

Feel free to respond.

HorsePik - The greatest handicapper in the world.

[Tom]

OK. Here is the deal. How old are you?

I am 49

Do you play at both horse tracks and casinos?

I have gone to a casino only a couple of times-only for fun. I handicap hoprse racing and have done so since the 1960's


Do you really have a clue what you are talking about or just repeating comments from an article you read or a conversation you overheard?

What the HELL is your problem?
Why would you ask such a stupid question?
CanYou read?
Obviously you misssed the whole point of my post.
Probably because you were in such a hurry to throw in
you your two cents worth.

The casino is flourishing and subsidizing the horse track.

Exactly my point-if the horse track can't make money without the casino, don't you think someone will get rid of the track and take that subsidy money somewhere else?

Who is actually getting hurt if the casino subsidizes the horse track? You tell me.

No one. Not my point. Actually, I like the fact that tracks are getting welfare from slots and dice. Point is how long will this last?

However, almost all casino games are no brainers.

The way most people play the horse is a "no brainer"
People actually do play casino games on a very intense intellectual level. A friend of mine have won 6 blackjack tournements in 200-2001 and just won the Tournement of Champions at Turning Stone in NY. He studies the game more than most people ever study the horse or their own profession. He used to play the horses all the time-he quit because the game has gotten so low class
and becasue of all the cheating. Read today's DRF article on Suerry-the new king of dope in NY.
Kbow what his profession is-he runs an OTB parlor.
Wouldn't play a horse if you gave him the money.



If the "clientele" impressed you more at the casino level then this is just a bunch of people with money and no interest in much beyond taking a fling at "ca ching" "ca ching" et cetera. Or even more scary, people with money and no brains.

No, actually the impressed me by their behavior (civilized), their tendency not to spit on the floor or throw papers on the floor-thier lack of that gooey brown substance on their boots, the fact that they used soap reccently, their lack of 4-letter words, combed hair,
and an overall feeling that they wouldn'ttry to pick my pocket. Sorry-most of the people I see at racetracks are a cut above animals-a thin cut.

Have a nice day.
Tom

[hurrikane]

Go Tom. Seems every time I come here some jerk is getting in someones face for expressing and opinion.
Frankly I don't mind the casinos. Hoped that it would have brought more people into handicapping and maybe it has. One thing is has done is allow a facelift to some pretty run down minor tracks that now are a pleasant place to go for simulcast. And the friends and girlfriend that aren't horse people can go and have fun too. That is just my look at things...and you can certianly have yours. I'm just wondering what jerk is going jump on my ass now.

[Tom]

Thanks for the kind words.
I plan to visit FE and WO this year and spend time in both slot areas-vacations are supposed to be fun.
It would be great to add racing fans and hope it does, but what I saw at WO was not that case-and that was only one track, one day.
I am just afraid that if racing drains profits from slots,
we might end up with "slot house" and no racing-less overhead, less real estate needed, more $$$$$.
tom

[BIG HIT]

Hi guys I live in detroit and are through bred track has closed.Because they would not allow them to put slots in the track.Where windsor raceway in canada was allowed to and there attendence went up and parimutual betting went up 20%.That according to the papers here a while back

[Tom]

Hey Big Hit,
I used to go to Ladbroke in Detroit a lot. I go to Detroit frequently on business and used to kill time waitng for
my flight home by going over there. I used to buy a newspaper and sit in a parking lot and read it. One day,
I thought I heard "They're Off" through my car window!
I though I was dreaming-lo and behold, my life improved
that day! I never knew the track was there!
That is where I got interested in simulate pace (from another thread) and never knew for sure when I would be going there. I loved that track-and they were set up great for simulcasting. I used to always stop in at the "TOUT" both at the track and when it was in that little plaza over on Schoolcraft Road. I miss that store a lot-do you know if they moved to Gret Lakes Downs?
Thanks for the memories!
Tom

[BIG HIT]

HI tom i really miss drc to.The tout has moved to northville downs in novi.Which is or will be the next to fall.hazel park is a dump and windsor is a pain going threw tunnel or over the bridge.And greatlakes down is a bit of ride. have a good day nice talking with you tom

[racehoss]

Hello Tom:
I just posted a reply but i guess it didn't take the first time. I am pretty new with computers, so if it did, what i have to say to you, won't hurt you to hear it twice.
I own racehorses, I train racehorses, I have worked on the back side all of my life, yes it has gotten worse then it was when i was a kid, but i think society in general has gotten worse. Tom these people work extremely long hours, 7 days a week they get up at 3:30, to be at work by 4;30 am, every am, there is no x-mas or any other holiday, there are no weekends, because those horses have to be feed and they have to get out of their stall every day. Tom, sometimes when you are running horses you get dirty, you get shit on your shoes, and you don't have time to get cleaned up because you've got to get your horse to the paddock on time, and you go to the grandstand a little dirty, but your going their to run a horse and maybe get your picture made not have dinner. Yes Tom there are scuzz on the backside, and there are nice people, and mean people, and black people and white people, and mexican people, and they work in La. in 110 degrees and in NY when it 30 below, and when it raining and when it is snowing. and all these different people working there asses off 7 days a week have one thing in common, their undying love of horses, the adernaline rush of the race, the pride they feel when they have worked endless hours with a horse and he jumps up and runs out of sight on a clear day. They sure don't do it for the $$, or the recognition. So Tom next time you are sitting in the A/C in the grandstand on a very hot summer day, and you see horses having heat strokes after the race, or some shit on someones shoes, you just remember THEY ARE THE ONES THAT PUT ON THE SHOW AND WITHOUT THEM, PARTNER, THERE AINT NO SHOW. and then Tom you wouldn't be able to look down your nose at some poor guy who got his teeth kicked out by a horse and can't afford to get new ones, cause without these people taking care of these animals that you think you know so much about ( how they're going to run, ect.) you wouldn't be able to get on here and tell everyone how awful they are, you should be ashamed of yourself Tom.
I SPEAK FOR EVERY HARD WORKING GROOM, HOT WALKER, AND TRAINER ON THE BACKSIDE OF EVERY RACE TRACK IN THIS COUNTRY.
THANK YOU. Leslie

[smf]

Racehoss,

First off, you have my respect as a horseman. You're right; If it wasn't for people like yourself, the game wouldn't go on for us players.

Before you and Tom get into it, I think Tom was belittling 'us players' as much, or moreso than horsemen. I don't want to put words into his mouth or be his defense, but the description of "horseplayers" he gives is an accurate one, at least at the track I attend.

Since I'm a "horseplayer" perhaps I'm qualified to agree w/ his comments about "us". I prefer to wager from home when LS doesn't offer live racing for the very reasons Tom offered-- People spitting on the floor, smoke filled air, foul language (even in the presence of ladies and children), etc...

The more I get into this "game" (only been following closely since 1997), the more I respect the people on the backside. It appears a tough way to make a living, but a labor of love for many.

I think I speak for many 'cappers when I say I have the UTMOST respect for honest hard working people in any profession and racing is no exception.

[racehoss]

Hi, codesix, you sound like a true diplomat. It's nice to meet you, I hope Iam wrong, but no matter who the man's talking about he still might want to open that book before judging it, I have to disagree also with his or his friend with the OTB's assesment of horseracing, i.e. cheating, people that don't have clue and lose their $ usually say things like that, when that gate opens there are about nine million things that can go wrong, horse can get left, lose rider, lose shoe, show too much speed not show enough speed, get boxed in down the lane, those boys have to make split second decisions and some times they make the wrong ones, but it's only because they are human. As for his concern about casinos putting racing out of business, why would that happen, horse racing has been in this country since it was introduced to us by the French with the La. purchase, it has survived 2 world wars, the depression,ect. I don't see it going anywhere, with or without casinos. He friend has studied hard and won tournments at casinos, i think that is great but that is the exception not the rule, most of the people i've seen at the casinos, just stand there dropping their change in and pulling a handle. When you walk into a racetrack you know up front the racetrack is going to take .20 cents on the dollar of your $, or whatever the case may be. You walk into a casino and you think your gonna beat a man in blackjack that went to school to learn to beat you (dealers). I don't think so. Casino's are for suckers!!! I'll stick to the races, I love Santa Anita, you can bet a couple bucks on some of the best horses running in the country out there, the best announcer in the world. and on any given sat. you're liable to witness some history in the making. I just don't think you'll see anything like that happening in a casino...........
Nice to meet you codesix you seem like a nice man, and by the way I am a horsewoman, not a horseman....
Leslie

[Tom]

SMF is right-I was thumbing my nose at the patrons at the track-I stand by what I said-most people I see at the track are loud, obnoxious jerks, which is why I seldom go there anymore. I bet from home. The analogy was between the crowd at the casino and the crowd at the track on one night at Woodbine.
I agree that people work hard on the backstretch, and I appreciate hard work, but you have it backwards-if if weren't for people like Me, the bettor, you guys wouldn't have a sport or a job. It is high time the whole damn industry realized it us bettors that bring in the money and treat us like customers.
My concern is that the tracks are not pulling their weight-they can't make money without leeching off of slots. If this keeps usp, tracjs will go away and slots will be all that is left. I am really concerned that horseracing is run by such complete and utter idiots that they won't be able to stop it. When a track offers a 5 horse field, it is a disgrace-there is way too much racing, and we need less dates, less tracks, less of everything.
I am sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention-but I think there are serious problems with this sport and from what I see, the horsemen and tracks don't seem to want to face the truth.
Tom

[ridersup]

Racehoss

Welcome to PA's board. I too am a handicapper but also a horseman. To broaden my knowledge of handicapping I became a horseman and were my eyes opened. I have really come to admire the backside people that directly work with the horses and anyone can tell in a minute that these guys really enjoy their work. Frankly I think its a thankless job full of 12 hour days, 7 days a week and it takes a special kind of person to handle it.
Actually most of the people didn't really consider it a job but consiered it participating in an activity they really love.

I think its great to have a trainers perspective on the board. We have authors, big time handicappers, computer geniuses, and of course just some regular guys who love to talk horses and handicapping. We are all here to learn and anything you can add to the mix will be greatly appreciated.

In my short stay on the backside I learned that if you are involved in the training of a horse you have little available time for handicapping which is my first love.

Look forward to reading some of your posts on any area of the board you are comfortable in.

[Tom]

Ridersup is right, Racehoss,

Welcome to the board.

It is a good group and lots of good ideas get talked about here.
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot-I too look forward to hearing from the "other side" of racing. Maybe we can all learn something from each other.
Tom

[racehoss]

Hi!, Tom, sorry about the misunderstanding, I really don't spend a lot of time at the grandstand, Iam usually at the barn, but they can get loud, and drunk up there.
Agree on that!!
I really do with all my heart hope racing can survive the casinos, the way i look at it , if it has survived all the idiots in charge over the 100 + years it has been around,maybe it can survive the ones in charge now, somebody said we should respect the bettors,cause without them we wouldn't have horse racing, i agree i believe they both go hand in hand. Just don't tell the shiek in Dubai cause he gives away millions and there is no gambling at his track, maybe some rich guys will come along and do that in this country, then i guess you wouldn't need the bettors after all. (iam joking, don't get hot)))
Look forward to visiting with you guys in the future, I'll find a horse for us to bet on.
Later Leslie

[smf]

Racehoss,

I'd like to echo Ridersup and Tom's welcome to you here. A lot of good folks here, that's for sure.

I have TRN so I watch all the OP races I can (especially Cole Norman, Jerry Cart and James Garroute's claims ;). If you want, let us know when you have a runner entered (live or not, doesn't matter) and I'll pull for them. Since I'm the ultimate jinx when I bet on someone's horse, I promise not to bet on them, lol.

There's a poster on this board (who I'll keep confidential) that's an owner and when a runner of his runs in a race on TRN, I cheer for them loudly --something I never do on my own bets. Never have had a bet on any of his runners, but it's fun pulling for someone's horses that you've swapped posts with.

OP is still the only class A track I've been to outside of Texas. Two people I used to work with grew up in Hot Springs and a few of us would go up there once a year during the mid 80s. Damn, I miss McClards BBQ. You could get a thousand tips (all bad of course) just eating dinner there. They had to have the hottest/ spicy-est bbq on earth. Had to buy a bottle of their sauce every time we went up there.

I understand it isn't quite the racing town now that it once was and that's too bad. It was a very unique place in March.

Once again, welcome to the board!

[racehoss]

Hey guys! I've posted again cause i lost the first one again, wonder why this is happening. I accept your apology Tom. Sorry for misunderstanding, Thanks for the Welcome. In response to treating the customer right, you are right, they should treat them better, and that is true of all businesses. The horses need the bettors and the bettors need the horses, unless of course the Shiek from Dubai comes over here, he gives away millions, and there is no gambling at his track.
It would be kind of interesting if some rich guys did that here wouldn't? I guess it would be like car racing then, a nice sport with no gambling. well anyway thanks for the welcome, maybe i can come up with a horse to bet on soon.
Talk to ya later,
Leslie

[racehoss]

Well I just found my first Post! Sorry if iam repeating myself, I am just learning about computers, smf- glad you like H.S. it is a nice town.I guess OP appears to have gone down, cause we don't have casinos, but they recently got their tax break, we are the same as Texas tax break now, but i have compared purses here to those in LS, and Houston, and looks like we are still giving away more $, we have an Ark. bred just ran in the rainbow Sat. got in speed duel and stopped, (another story) but he has run in 3 ark. bred races this meet and knock out 25K. not too bad, the purses for Allowance horse are pretty good. And of course the Racing Festival of the South is going to be awesome again this year, Spain is coming, Song and A pray will be here, Sir Bear, just to name a few, so I think OP is alive and well.
P.S. I want to pick the Derby gimmick bet Sat. 3 derby hores, SA, LS, SPT. Do you know anything for the LS. Derby, I think Point Given should win the SA Derby, and I need to get the SPT. derby winner too. Let me know, also will have a horse for you to bet on at LS, one I sold this winter to a trainer, he is there right now, till Arlington starts, if he runs him there I'll let you know, very consitent horse for 50K claiming..
Talk to ya Later,
Leslie

[smf]

Racehoss,

The LS Derby s/b the best field they've had. D'wildcat is out and won't ship in. Hoovergetthekeys I saw in a race at GG (TRN) and he looks like a fighter. Lot of heart. Asmussen has been quoted in the papers here that Fifty Stars has a real shot at being a good one. He says FS is a true stayer and doesn't allow trouble to be an excuse. They had some questions about Snuck In last year, who they doubted could get 10 furlongs but they're confident FS can get it.

Those are the logical 2 but they'll be on every pick 3 ticket. I'll post back on the LS Derby before saturday.

I definitely won't bet the race but it's one of those "events" that's a "Can't miss" around here.

OP's racing has held up well, no doubt. Their pools are still *huge*. I know that track is still the favorite among the Lone Star bettors in the spring. Whenever I bet on a C Norman claim at OP, the win pool is awfully big (100k+). That's nice to jump into. Cella/ Jackson has made the smart choice of staying out of the superfecta madness we have here. At some point, all that exotic stuff drains the value out of the other wagers.

I like FG b/c most of my plays are turf races involving 3-4 yo's in msw, n1x races. Their racing has sure come a long way and, like OP, the claiming business is very strong.

If Amoss runs a claim or 2 at OP in the last week of the meet like he did last year (fenwood), I'll post back. He's pretty awesome at turning around young runners off the claim.

[GR1@HTR]

SMF,

Glad to see things are going well on the trainer angle. Next time you head on out to LS let me know and maybe we visit for a bit.

[smf]

GR1,

I'll be there all week to check out the new surface see and how it plays. E-mail me the day before you go and we'll meet at your convenience.


Racehoss,

I checked out the article today in the Dallas Morning News about the LS Derby and it looks like Hoovergetthekeys and Fifty Stars are the only "Derby quality" entrants. Looking at the other entrants, they need to jump up a ton to get where the favorites are.

One of my favorite trainers here (Chris Candies) has an entrant that on paper shouldn't be there, but he won with TB TRack Star in this race at high odds.

As you know (a lot better than me) 3yo's "mature" oftentimes this time of year and it comes as a complete surprise to handicappers, but not trainers and handlers. If I were to bet a longshot, it w/b on Chris' horse.

Personally, I'll pass the race. I think Chris knows that the field is extremely weak (Asmussen and Koriner's runners notwithstanding), and a 3rd place check is very realistic. Also, as the old saying goes "anything can happen in a horse race", so "ya neveh know"!

[racehoss]

Thanks, I will check it out, I usually don't bet gimmicks, but i tought it would be fun, just 3 races, even i might be able to do that... So true about 3 year olds,
you never know, even when you think you know, you never know....
Talk to ya later... leslie