Do You Think Some Races Are Still Rigged??

[Nickle]

Harness is corrupt as we all knowm that

But how about Flats?? I do think some races are rigged where jocks are told to hold back horses and let publuc think horse is dead and then tbney pound at a later date at the right price.

[twindouble]

Harness is corrupt as we all knowm that

But how about Flats?? I do think some races are rigged where jocks are told to hold back horses and let publuc think horse is dead and then tbney pound at a later date at the right price.


Nickle, where ever there's money there's thieves, it's the extent of it that concerned me through out the years, learning a track and who's who is the key to finding the theives, I call it handicapping the crooks. In my opinion the majority of races are run true to form, otherwise I would have had to quit many years ago. Has there been an increase in cheating, yes we all know that and that applies to our society as a whole.

[midnight]

The trainer can't depend on the horse coming out of a race okay or staying in shape another 10-30 days until the next race. If the horse is fit, they're going to send it.

The chicanery that bugs me is trainers who know darned well that their horse WON'T do anything, know that the horse will be short odds based on current form, and who send the horse for a race-workout while betting on other horses or tipping certain bettors about the horse's situation.

[highabove]

I dont consider a trainer shading a horse for a better price a fixed race. Its part of the game. Many times there are clues the trainer is doing this. I consider a fixed race when the jockeys and maybe some trainers are in collusion to the outcome of a race. I would like to think the hugh purse increases at some tracks has helped the integrity of the races. A former small dirt bag track like Evangeline Downs now runs $5000 claimers for $28000 purse money. This has to help the sport.

[twindouble]

I dont consider a trainer shading a horse for a better price a fixed race. Its part of the game. Many times there are clues the trainer is doing this. I consider a fixed race when the jockeys and maybe some trainers are in collusion to the outcome of a race. I would like to think the hugh purse increases at some tracks has helped the integrity of the races. A former small dirt bag track like Evangeline Downs now runs $5000 claimers for $28000 purse money. This has to help the sport.

Overall I agree with what your saying as you see. I aways looked at it as part of handicapping that give me an edge here and there. I'll still stick to what I said on the increased in cheating by vertue of our drug culture, bigger purses or not.

[Fastracehorse]

I think being a horse player with a 'criminal mind' is a good thing.

fffastt

[46zilzal]

there are HUNDREDS of ways to make horses run BELOW theri past performances. One really simple way is feed thehm big rations on the day of the race...bloated a bit, they will not run well. Of course with them in the receiving barn this is more difficult

[Tom]

I think being a horse player with a 'criminal mind' is a good thing.

fffastt

Or a 'criminal record?" :D


BTW...who seez harness races are rigged? My perception is that there are far more suspicious t-breds races than harness racess.

[twindouble]

Or a 'criminal record?" :D


BTW...who seez harness races are rigged? My perception is that there are far more suspicious t-breds races than harness racess.


Tom, your on a roll! :lol: Jumped alligator!:lol:

[Kitan]

BTW...who seez harness races are rigged? My perception is that there are far more suspicious t-breds races than harness racess.


My thoughts exactly. There are as many so-called "rigged" races at a Great Lakes Downs than there are at a Batavia Downs.

[kenwoodallpromos]

You mentioned holding back horses, so I will opine an that:
I think a lot of horses are held if they get a bad start and the jockey/trainer does not want to overuse its energy for a minor prize.
There are other jockeys who misjudge the holding power of the track so misjudges the pace for that horse and makes it look like a holding job.
I say the best place to look for a hold is a low-odds horse on the outside on a slow track.
The California TOBA owner's handbook online tells how front wraps are used to fool other trainers.

[Tote Master]

Now this is my kind of thread!
Remember guys this is only a game! Where does it say in any rules that every horse entered MUST be there in an attempt to win? I know what pisses off most players is that they just don't know who's trying and who's not. Some may call it cheating, I just call it bluffing. We seem to accept that in poker, so why not in racing? You just have to remember who always knows their hand before they play it. Handicapping is great for trying to determine who's supposed to win, but unless you know who's trying the figures don't mean a thing in my book. You all know where I stand when it comes to "intentions". I believe that if the money doesn't show up, neither will the horse or its connections for pictures afterward.

Have a nice weekend!

[rokitman]

Classic Bugs Bunny logic.

[Tote Master]

rokitman
Classic Bugs Bunny logic.
Perhaps from Elmer Fudds perspective!

Take the blinkers off and just look at the comments from your fellow handicappers.

[highabove]

Thoroughbred Times reports Jockey Roberto Perez was suspended for making a wager which did not include his horse. Michigan law states a jockey can only make a wager if it includes his horse. He was on the favorite which surprisingly finished 8th. The bet was for a super. Funny thing the winner of the race Magical paid $97.80 with the super comming in at $9859
The person cashing the ticket for Perez was detained.

[cnollfan]

Few people ever mention this, but I suspect some "fixed" races don't turn out the way the fixers expected. The one thing I got out of the movie "Fargo" is that criminals are often stupid.

[Fwizard]

I can relay infomation on a game where the fix was in-this wasn't in horse racing but in Jai-Alai there was a big tri-super giveaway at the end of the yr and some of the guys on 5 teams(out of 8) got together and conspired to "throw" the game by dropping balls or throwing the balls in to the pad(out of bounds) on purpose. The reason I know this is that I am friends with the 5 players --I knew the fix was on but did not buy any tickets but watched the game to see what would happen. Well everything was going as planned as the 5 teams kept dumping the points so that the only teams with points were the three teams whose players werent involved. The guys had to have team 1 win as they pooled the money only with him on top with the two other teams. The number one team was on game point and only had to win one more time. The number 1 team serves to a player that was supposed to dump the point. This player thought to himself that he must make it look good so he figured he would just miss the wall and hit the pad. What happened was he tried to cut it so close he actually made a perfect shot winning the point and stopping the number one team from winning. So they all lost---the morale is even when the fix is "in" maybe it's not....

[Overlay]

That speaks to comments I've made previously about the extent of collusion required for fixes involving actions by multiple parties (whether in jai alai or racing) to be successful. To me, there's just too much potential for things to go wrong, making it unlikely that fixes would be widespread.

[Vegas711]

Do you think that some races are rigged ?

NO.

If I did i would quit the game.

[cj]

Do you think that some races are rigged ?

NO.

If I did i would quit the game.

But, of course some are rigged. Did you not read about the recent GLD race where the jockey stiffed his favored horse and had the super? They don't get much more rigged than that!

I don't think it happens very often, but it certainly does happen.

[Art P]

They tossed this poor schmuck out of baseball for a few harmless bets. Where is the ourage against this jockey. Amazing... I bet Pete had that superfecta

[highnote]

Someone I know very well was a security guard at Mountaineer back in the '70s when it was still Waterford Park. He said that some of the jocks would occassionally conspire to fix races near the holidays or someone's birthdays so they could all have money to buy gifts.

I image this kind of thing must go on at many racetracks around the country -- if not around the world.

[rastajenk]

Closing day at many meets is known as "get away" day...which is shorthand for "get away with it" day. ;)

I think the jiggy-joggers are inherently more crooked because in many cases the owner, trainer, and driver of a horse are all the same person! The fewer individuals you have to conspire with, the easier it would be, don't you think?

[BBBoogie]

Haven't been on this forum for a couple of years and decided to browse a bit. This thread caught my eye as I have trained race horses at a small track for several years and have seen a few "fixes" turn out differently than planned. One time a jockey that had riden my horse several times and had taken a liking to him took the mount on the favorite in a stakes race. My horse ran second to that one, and I was disappointed, but pleased with his effort. After the race said jockey came up to me and whispered, " I tried to hold my horse back so yours could win, but he wouldn't let me." I stared at him dumbfounded, and he laughed and said, "No, really, I was trying but he would have none of it! He wanted to win!"
I also was once privy to a conversation between three jockeys at a fair meet in the bush who were conspiring to cash in on a trifecta on their three mounts. On paper it looked good. All three horses had a good shot, but wouldn't be favorites. And, by god, all three ran together--last, second to last and third to last.
Sometimes it's hard to convince the horses to join in the conspiracy.
However, as to whether there's more of it today, I would definately say no. With the advent of video and drug testing, it's harder for people to get away with it. And as was pointed out, criminals aren't very smart.
Spend some time with some old horsemen and you will hear stories of race-fixing from the old days (1940's-1960's) that will boggle your mind.

[twindouble]

Haven't been on this forum for a couple of years and decided to browse a bit. This thread caught my eye as I have trained race horses at a small track for several years and have seen a few "fixes" turn out differently than planned. One time a jockey that had riden my horse several times and had taken a liking to him took the mount on the favorite in a stakes race. My horse ran second to that one, and I was disappointed, but pleased with his effort. After the race said jockey came up to me and whispered, " I tried to hold my horse back so yours could win, but he wouldn't let me." I stared at him dumbfounded, and he laughed and said, "No, really, I was trying but he would have none of it! He wanted to win!"
I also was once privy to a conversation between three jockeys at a fair meet in the bush who were conspiring to cash in on a trifecta on their three mounts. On paper it looked good. All three horses had a good shot, but wouldn't be favorites. And, by god, all three ran together--last, second to last and third to last.
Sometimes it's hard to convince the horses to join in the conspiracy.
However, as to whether there's more of it today, I would definately say no. With the advent of video and drug testing, it's harder for people to get away with it. And as was pointed out, criminals aren't very smart.
Spend some time with some old horsemen and you will hear stories of race-fixing from the old days (1940's-1960's) that will boggle your mind.

"Criminals aren't very smart." When it comes horse racing I never under estimate those that are in a position to win or lose at will, to do so you lose the very edge they will capitalize on. As handicappers we put it in the realm of "intent" because in most cases we aren't in on what's going on. It would be foolish to think that they would bet serious money on horses that can't win. Not that it didn't happen now and then but I would say in some cases someone paid the price in one way or another. This element existed then and exists now, just wears a different suit. In spite of that fact, I still think the majority of races like I said run true to form. It's incumbent on any gambler to know who's who and who's doing what. Today, I'm out of the loop with a dumb a-ss computer in my face, just relying on the DRF in hopes I see a pattern evolve.



Good luck,

T.D.+

[JimG]

I don't think many horse races are rigged per se. But it sure bugs me as a bettor to know that some trainers enter a horse in a race and the horse is in there for nothing more than a workout for a future race and the jock will perservere in the stretch just enough to stay out of trouble with the stewards.

As gamblers we condone it and say it is part of the game. But how many sporting events are contested where a party (individual or team) are not trying to do the best they can? Very rare in my opine and highly publicised if it comes to light. In racing, we say it is part of the game and look for the next betting opportunity.

Jim

[twindouble]

I don't think many horse races are rigged per se. But it sure bugs me as a bettor to know that some trainers enter a horse in a race and the horse is in there for nothing more than a workout for a future race and the jock will perservere in the stretch just enough to stay out of trouble with the stewards.

As gamblers we condone it and say it is part of the game. But how many sporting events are contested where a party (individual or team) are not trying to do the best they can? Very rare in my opine and highly publicised if it comes to light. In racing, we say it is part of the game and look for the next betting opportunity.

Jim


Jim; Failure to perservere is an always has been a tough call to make. There's to many excuses to cover the jocks fanny and your right it boils down to perception. That's why I use what I call fillers in the gimmicks that can pick up the pieces, what else can we do other than wait for that one or two horses that week that we feel very strong about and key them the best way we can. I find the more negitive you get about jocks and trainers the worst off you are.

T.D.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Closing day at many meets is known as "get away" day...which is shorthand for "get away with it" day. ;)

I think the jiggy-joggers are inherently more crooked because in many cases the owner, trainer, and driver of a horse are all the same person! The fewer individuals you have to conspire with, the easier it would be, don't you think?

You are Hilarious!!!
This thread reminds me of Seinfeld..About nothing!!
Please remember,Every guy that trains and owns his own horse does know how hard it is to win a race and also pick up checks,I hardly think he is going to hold his horse back. These animals are like roses, Can wilt in a moments notice..J..I think you are watching tooo many movies..

[Fastracehorse]

Form darkening is very popular - but rarely interpreted as wrong.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

I am the opposite of you Vegas - if I didn't think the races were rigged - I would quit this game.

But 'rigged' is a very strong word - maybe we should define that.

fffastt

[BBBoogie]

Sometimes in individual sports such as gymnastics and track and field an athelete does enter a meet in order to prepare for something upcoming like the Olympic trials, knowing they are not yet fit enough to win. That's not to say that they aren't trying to win and doing their best, only that they know they have little chance. It's much the same with horses. Sometimes you enter one to "get a race in them," whether to tighten them up or try out a new distance, or because it's a long time between the races you are trying to win, knowing it's not the best spot for them or they are not yet fit enough to win. You can only train on and work a horse so much. At some point, only a race will prepare them for a race, whether it's to get them fit or keep them fit and sharp. And a good horse, no matter what the jockey is doing, is always trying to do his best.
I am much more bothered by the "rabbits" they put in longer races to set it up for a stablemate. A horse only has so many races in it, and this robs one from a pretty good horse who could be winning for his owner and jockey. And it is a cheat to the bettors, who could have a viable contender to chose from in that hole. I'd like to see some control of this.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I assume they are called "rabbits" because of the old "Tortoise and the Hare" story.
I have seen rabbits in human racing.
I have no problem with rabbits in betting because it is like the trainer admitting neither horse is very versatile so trip 'cappers must do well in those. And any track that runs a little different than expected as to pace or dymanics can mess up the plans. Then both horses are wasted!
I think it is too bad for racing if the rabbit could have run well on its own in some other race.

[The Judge]

All I can say is when movies are made the directors can not get the horses to run in sort of oder. And these or movies about hores races.

[twindouble]

All I can say is when movies are made the directors can not get the horses to run in sort of oder. And these or movies about hores races.

Judge; All they have to do is a little red board editing. :D

[The Judge]

Thats the point.

[The Judge]

That's the point. I think we are on the same point.

[Observer]

The trainer can't depend on the horse coming out of a race okay or staying in shape another 10-30 days until the next race. If the horse is fit, they're going to send it. ...

I can't say I agree with that statement. Plenty of trainers pass on the "here and now" with a hot horse with an eye for future races.

[Observer]

Just wanted to add .. that with as bad as some racing scenes look in most movies .. such as "A Bronx Tale" .. it reinforces my belief that it's hard to make the outcome of a race a desired one.

As already stated in this thread .. horses aren't always willing participants .. they do have minds of their own.

[Tom]

I am the opposite of you Vegas - if I didn't think the races were rigged - I would quit this game.

But 'rigged' is a very strong word - maybe we should define that.

fffastt

I agree with your thought. Not all horses are entered to win. If that isn't cheating, I don't know what is. But as long as we can figure it out......
It's a lot like ordering a diner out and getting a plastic baked potato on your plate. Don't eat it, but enjoy the steak.

[Overlay]

I can't say I agree with that statement. Plenty of trainers pass on the "here and now" with a hot horse with an eye for future races.

What is your personal take on how handicappers can separate seemingly "hot" horses which are "trying" today from those which are not? Do you subscribe to Tote Master's belief in the analysis of betting patterns to make this distinction? (I personally don't believe that each horse running is always entered with the primary intention of winning. But I am also of the opinion that this can be accounted for by the use of published performance data and the employment of a fair-odds line, where each horse is assigned a probability of winning.) With all the uncertainties in racing, I tend to agree with midnight that it would be more rational for a trainer with a horse which was entered where it could win today to be trying for the purse, rather than deliberately sacrificing such a chance for an uncertain shot at a future victory.

[highabove]

I dont think to many trainers shade a horse that is ready to win.
I do think some will shade the improvement of a horse up to the win.
Thats part of the game. One reason is they dont want the horse claimed before go day. A few to cash a ticket.

[Observer]

With regard to trainers keeping an eye on the future .. I was basically referring to situations like the Breeders' Cup Juvenile, where trainers have passed on running their horses in that race because they wanted a chance at the Kentucky Derby the following spring. Or horses that have basically had no fall campaign because the trainers wanted a "fresh" horse for the Breeders' Cup.

My statement was about trainers sitting horses on the bench and waiting for future races. It was not a statement about intentions of a specific race where the horse has been entered.

My response was to midnight's statement:
The trainer can't depend on the horse coming out of a race okay or staying in shape another 10-30 days until the next race. If the horse is fit, they're going to send it. ...

I think in recent years plenty of fit, good horses have been benched with an eye on a bigger prize down the line rather than a smaller current event.

[Overlay]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you if it's a question of deciding whether the horse will even be entered today rather than pointing toward a future race down the road. I took the context of the discussion to be more along the lines of the trainer entering the horse in a race, but then using the race for conditioning purposes rather than having the specific intent of winning. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Overlay]

I was also thinking of how you would distinguish alleged cases where a horse looks good on form, and its connections have it entered in a race which it appears ready to win, but the horse will be "trying" only if the odds are right. (Or, conversely, how to detect cases where the horse doesn't figure on paper, but its previous form has been purposely darkened in hopes of driving up the odds today.)

[twindouble]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you if it's a question of deciding whether the horse will even be entered today rather than pointing toward a future race down the road. I took the context of the discussion to be more along the lines of the trainer entering the horse in a race, but then using the race for conditioning purposes rather than having the specific intent of winning. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Overlay; Unlike graded races or stake races where everyone knows those horses are pointed in that direction, all other conditions are a crap shoot as to who will be in the race. The name of the game is knowing who your compitition is and at what level your horse can compete and placing your the accordingly. All we have is past performances to look at, trainer's history, patterns, form cycles and so on, we call it trainer intent. Just look at it this way, spilt the horses that are stabled at the track like you would a deck of cards into an estimated class range, ( where they can compete) Take each cut, you may end up with 4 or 5 and shuffle it up. At times each cut will over lap somewhat, that's the compitition with the exception of shippers.

Handicappers are supose to know when a horse is in over is head or has the right conditions to compete taken into concideration the factors we are all familiar with. It isn't like 10 trainers got together and conspired to put their horses in a given race, some get stuck running agains't better horses, why beat the horse to death knowing he hasn't got a chance, we call it darking in some cases but I don't think all trainers are bunch of dummies so you can end up with a very compitive race or have a cake walk if the horse is in form and that could be the speed in the race that runs alone. Some call that a boat ride ESP when at a big price. I call it handicapping.

You'll find within those cuts there isn't a heck of a lot that seperates those horses and at times we will come up with those that we concider to be a lock at nice value or he'll be chalk.

Good luck,

T.D.

[Perilous]

I don't think races at some of the 'major' tracks are rigged, but tampered with, yes.

The current issue with the jockey's weight, a handicapper can only go by what they read, they see 121 and the horse is really carrying 134...well that is tampering with a race. And thats not just for NY.
Entering horses, holding entries, trainers behind the counter, races being wrote for specific horses, are all tampering with races.
drugs, equipment(plugging a horse in) all can change a race.
I've even seen horses from the same trainer, switch horses once in the paddock(not a entry). This time the trainer was caught, but you can imagine many others have got away with it, especially on busy small paddocks where horses go everywhere.

Those are just a few specifics that I can think of at the moment. There are more. Certain meets are called "money meets" and the races are more or less rigged. Someone that is on the lead that hasn't won a race all year, the jocks aren't going to pass them up..and if you look at some of the win pictures the other horses' mouths will be gapped open from the jock pulling back so bad.
As far as trainers waiting for another race, they usually aren't thinking of a handicapper when they do this. They have a strategy and for some reason the race they are in isn't right for their horse. You can say, why run them then, but you don't always have much a choice depending on the condition book, racing secretary, owner, health of horse, etc..

[Fastracehorse]

I don't know if you ever played them - but, I got pretty good at figuring out some trainer/drivers.

It used to be extremely satisfying when one of my contrarian opinions materialized.

Now I never play them - the tb's are enough work.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

Re: Conspiracy theories - and I do believe they have their merit - it took me some time to realize tb barns will take short odds when their charge is spotted for the kill.

In harness - I remember some of the 'boys' would leave the win pool alone and attack the tris.

This is in response to you saying this:"I was also thinking of how you would distinguish alleged cases where a horse looks good on form, and its connections have it entered in a race which it appears ready to win, but the horse will be "trying" only if the odds are right."

How you might distinguish this? The horse comes back to win next time at a good price. Everybody will think you are insane however - and they are half right :)

fffastt

[twindouble]

-I don't think races at some of the 'major' tracks are rigged, but tampered with, yes.

The current issue with the jockey's weight, a handicapper can only go by what they read, they see 121 and the horse is really carrying 134...well that is tampering with a race. And thats not just for NY.
Entering horses, holding entries, trainers behind the counter, races being wrote for specific horses, are all tampering with races.
drugs, equipment(plugging a horse in) all can change a race.
I've even seen horses from the same trainer, switch horses once in the paddock(not a entry). This time the trainer was caught, but you can imagine many others have got away with it, especially on busy small paddocks where horses go everywhere.
Those are just a few specifics that I can think of at the moment. There are more. Certain meets are called "money meets" and the races are more or less rigged. Someone that is on the lead that hasn't won a race all year, the jocks aren't going to pass them up..and if you look at some of the win pictures the other horses' mouths will be gapped open from the jock pulling back so bad.
As far as trainers waiting for another race, they usually aren't thinking of a handicapper when they do this. They have a strategy and for some reason the race they are in isn't right for their horse. You can say, why run them then, but you don't always have much a choice depending on the condition book, racing secretary, owner, health of horse, etc..


Perilous; You've got the right handle because I think it's a perilous road to get caught up in all of what could be happening or just happens now and then when it comes to cheating. I've handicaped thousands of races that I think ran true to form loses included. Sure there was many where I said to myself, " how the heck that happen, that freaking horse never ran 1:12-3 in his life let alone 1:11 eased up!" That's just one exampe but the best thing to do is to ignore it unless you want to be an activist and try to elimate every scondral in the business and forget about handicapping. Negitive thinking and gambling just don't go together.

Good luck,

T.D.

[highabove]

Perilous Thanks for the insight. Are these money meets county fairs or are we talking small to mid level tracks.

[twindouble]

Perilous Thanks for the insight. Are these money meets county fairs or are we talking small to mid level tracks.

I'm just curious, say Perilous mentions a half dozen tracks, large or small or a couple fairs, what then? Do you avoid those tracks on one persons opinion or make it a point to rub elbo's with the so-called theives? Information is fine but you have to determinhow good that information is and how it would effect your handicapping and wagering. Once you toss your form and rely on that type of information your doomed. Like I said before, it happens but it's the degree of it that counts and I don't see it as major problem making money. Plus I wouldn't throw a blanket over all the trainers as thieves. If you follow the trainers closely you'll see patterns devlope that point to a good effort. Yes, even at the small tracks.

I don't buy into the idea that at small tracks the end of the meet is a free for all. The conditions can be tough to handicap because your at the bottom of the barrow, sure some of the better horses hang in to help fill the cards but not many. For me it was a good time to lock in on some value plays.


Good luck,

T.D.

[highabove]

I am not changing my play based on whats said on this thread.
I do find it intresting what a trainer has to say on this subject.

[Perilous]

small tracks, no fairs(we don't have those around here in KY).

If I was handicapping, I don't think you can change your picks by trying to 'think' like thieves, usually one of the best horses win anyways. But when trying to figure out 'why' something happens in a race, there are often alot of variables that aren't known to the public. Though, I don't think at some of these small meets where trainers that haven't won in a year, jockeys that haven't won in months, or around christmas time at a small track where certain things might make it a bit easier for them to win is really that bad, shows that some racetrackers still have a heart..even if it is at the mercy of a handicapper. Sadly, I think small tampering such as weights, medication, etc are far more prominent and make the sport not as much fun and unfair to all included. Since the above that comes out of someone showing sympathy for someone is far less common(or well atleast at the track!)