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spitthebit
09-30-2005, 05:27 PM
I have been lurking on this board for a couple months, and decided it's time to jump in. I've really enjoyed the insight I've seen here.

The question that prompts me to join the party is to determine what size bets will start impacting the pari-mutuel exacta pools at medium-sized tracks? Here is a little background to provide the context for my question: I decided to jump back into this game at a serious level last year after a 15 year absence. I was intrigued by all these "New Age" developments I was hearing about, such as internet wagering, computer software programs, and particularly rebates. I thought it worthwhile to attempt applying my favorite angles and spot plays of the previous era on a grander scale. Thought maybe I could develop some sort of "black box" angle that would produce a big enough volume of wagering to grind out a small but steady ROI, and use the rebates to make my bottom-line worthwhile. I envisioned myself as a small-time version of these whales with their computer programs that I was reading about.

Of course I realized immediately how difficult this is to do. Didn't have the bankroll or the stomach for it. But a funny thing happened along the way... I started becoming a pretty good handicapper. No rocket science, and I certainly didn't re-invent any wheels. Just read alot of the classic handicapping books and started developing a more intuitive feel for what I was doing. Most important, I kept meticulous records, and through some trial and error began learning the classes, conditions and race shapes in which I was achieving my best results. In particular, I've become a decent exacta player by focusing on the old theory that believes the exacta often consists of the best early running and best late-running horses, and then incorporating the other conventional factors in narrowing the contenders.

I'm currently playing $20 exactas as either ab/abc or abc boxes, for tickets of $80 or $120. I'm getting a strike rate in the mid-30s, with hits mostly in the $25 to $40 range. I catch a handful of $60 to $80 hits each month, and once or twice a month I'll catch a $90-to $110 exacta. Along with these, I have my fair share of chalky $16 to $24 hits. Nothing to retire on with all this, but I'm having fun again. Don't mean to imply that I've got this game figured out, and I've probably just jinxed myself. There's no arrogance here, just an excitement level that my hard work is showing signs of paying off.

So this brings me back to my original question. I'm gradually building my bankroll, and hope to start building the unit sizes of my exacta wagers. My goal is to start playing $50 ab/abc= $200 tickets, and I have this crazy dream of someday graduating to $200 ab/abc's = $800, or maybe $200 abc boxes at $1,200. Based on everything I've digested recently from the more experienced players on this board, I understand that if I have any success at all at offshore books such as Pinny or CRIS, they will ultimately lay off my action into the pools, and maybe piggy-back. So if my action at these levels goes into the pools, perhaps I'm better off playing at the legitimate onshore books such as AmeriTab or Brisbet. Or heck, I can always play at my neighborhood OTB like the old days. Regardless or where I play, I'm trying to determine how my wagers at these levels will impact the prices at the tracks I play most, which are the medium-sized places like Charlestown, Mountaineer, Philly and Canterbury, and a few smaller ones like Penn National, Beulah and Sunland. If the typical Charlestown exacta pool on a weeknight is $22,000, what will start happening to my bread-and-butter $32 hits based on the unit sizes I've just described? Do they start falling to $28 or $22? Or am I fooling myself by thinking I will even make an impact at these levels?

As much as I've learned about handicapping in the past year, I'm still mystified by the mathematics of the pari-mutuel pools. Hoping some of the more knowledgeable players on this board can enlighten me so that I can figure out the ideal betting unit size to aspire to. Thanks.

sparkywowo
09-30-2005, 06:24 PM
Charlestown has a 19% exacta take.

If there is $22,000 in the pool, and a combination pays $32, that is 15-1.

That means we solve ($22,000*0.81 - x)/x = 15 for x, to find x = the amount of money bet on the combination. Solving, x = ($22,000*0.81)/16 = $1114.

Now, you are going to bet $800, $200 on each of 4 combinations, so the new odds are:

($22,800*0.81 - $1314)/$1314 = 13

The pool went up from $22,000 to $22,800 due to your bet, the amount bet on the winning combination went up from $1114 to $1314.

So you drop the odds from 15-1 to 13-1 and the payoff from $32 to $28.

DJofSD
09-30-2005, 06:26 PM
First of all, welcome to the board.

How much does it take to impact the parimutuals? That depends upon the size of the pool (regardless if it is straight or exotic) and how much you push through the window.

It is a pure math problem but perhaps some one else has a good rule of thumb they use to quickly get an estimate.

For a single race wager, you should be able to get the info you need, e.g. straight bets, exactas/perfectas but for the other exotic bets or serial race wagers (doubles, triples/P3, etc.) getting the necessary pool information along with the current bets on all the combinations is not available.

Good question. Let's see what others have to say.

DJofSD

sparkywowo
09-30-2005, 06:30 PM
Calculating is easy if you do it in several steps:

For example, let's say you know the win pool, the amount bet on the winner, and the take (17%).

Let's say there is 10,000 in the win pool, and 4,000 on the winner.

After take, there is 8,300 left in the win pool (17% is gone).

Then subtract 4,000 wagered from 8,300 = 4300 to get the profit left.

The odds are the ratio of the profit to the investment 4300/4000 = 1.075

The track then breaks this down to the dime, or 1.0 to 1, odds of 1-1.

Vegas711
10-01-2005, 02:27 AM
How does your net return on exactas compare to win betting or other exotics?

If i ever did decide to enter the exotic betting world instead of exactas i would play trifectas it just seems like you get a much better payoff.As long as you are paying a larger vig why not go for the higher payoff.

Good luck to you.

PaceAdvantage
10-01-2005, 11:41 AM
I can't find this free article on the site....please provide a link....

Until the link can be provided to this free article, it will remain deleted on this board. And I will again remind you, whether free or not, people are NOT to repost FULL copyrighted articles on this board. Provide a LINK, and the first paragraph....that is all that is allowed.

timtam
10-01-2005, 12:02 PM
I take it that was the free article :)

JohnGalt1
10-01-2005, 05:55 PM
I understand your initial question was about exactas, but for win betting in small to mediaum tracks, I wish the tracks would wait for a more significant amount of betting befoe changing the odds on the tote board.

At Canterbury, after only about 2 minutes after the previous race is made official they change the tote's morning line odds to reflect currnet betting, usually with only $800-1000 in the win pool. Instead of changing it by the clock, they should wait until a certain amount of win money is bet, at least $2000. At Canterbury their win pools are 10K-12K. And it's the win pools most people base their win and exotic bets to determine potential payoffs.

Simulcast players think the 8-1 horse that opens at 5-2 is getting "smart" money, but usually it's just someone's $50. Plus most of the simulcast money doesn't even get into the pools until just before the race goes off.

spitthebit
10-01-2005, 07:35 PM
haven't done as well with trifectas. don't seem to get the same value. I've tried extending my ab/abc or abc box exactas and playing abc/abc/abcde trifectas. but when the exacta hits for let's say $30, if I catch the trifecta with it, it often comes back only $70 to$76. that's because my abc horses usually include the favorite and the 2nd or 3rd choice. seem to get more bang for my buck on exactas, but still trying to figure out the trifecta.


BTW, thanks to all for the responses to my original question. I got exactly the information I was looking for! much appreciated.

Hosshead
10-02-2005, 06:43 AM
There is a link I have somewhere, but I'm sure someone on this board can find it also, that has a list of the avg. mutuel pools of all tracks.
The exotic pools probably follow the same pattern.
As your exacta bet size increases, go to a higher (larger) track on the list.
That is, if your "handicapping method" is not restricted to just the tracks you mentioned, and can find plays at other tracks.

midnight
10-03-2005, 01:16 AM
If you're playing an AB/ABC ticket, you might want to routinely make "C" (the one which you have for second only) the shortest price of the three so that you miss the lowest exactas of the group when it wins.

One reason your trifecta extension doesn't work is because garbage horses tend to sneak in for third (and fourth) place because when the key horses hook up, often at least one of them fails and backs up through the field. Another reason might simply be variance. You have three times as many ways of getting three horses into the top two as you do to get all three into the top three (You have AB AC BC for the exacta but only ABC for the trifecta).

You're betting 4-way or 6-way combos and collecting in the general range of 12 ($25 payout) to 30 ($60 payout). For purposes of an example, we'll use your ABC box 6-way ticket. assume there's a 20% exacta takout, and your exacta pays $50. The numbers across are the exacta pool sizes before the 20% takeout, and the numbers in the first column are the base single-bet exacta (e.g. $25 would be a six-way $25 exacta box for $150). We're adding your bet into the pool and showing what the $50 exacta will pay with your bet included:


$5,000 $10,000 $25,000 $50,000 $100,000

$ 20 $45.40 $47.60 $49.00 $49.40 $49.60
$ 50 $40.20 $44.40 $47.60 $48.60 $49.20
$100 $34.40 $40.20 $45.40 $47.60 $48.60
$200 $27.40 $34.40 $41.80 $45.40 $47.60


As you can see, even a $20 exacta box will lower the payout in a $5,000 pool by almost 10%. A $200 exacta box will lower the payout by almost 5% in a $100,000 pool.

mcikey01
10-03-2005, 09:06 PM
I downloaded the free article on 06/26/2003 from the TR Publishing web site...I just assumed the article was still available there ...Will heed your message in the future re: copyrighted material.

PaceAdvantage
10-03-2005, 11:09 PM
That's cool. I've become extra-vigilant lately for reasons I won't go into....not trying to be a hard-ass or anything....