Proposed NYRA Rebate Program [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

andicap

09-23-2005, 01:44 AM

The program is for NYRA One account holders. Can an out of State resident get a NYRA One account? I don't think you can. That makes it flawed from the git-go. Because the first thing some outfit will do is run a bunch of out of State action through a few NYRA One accounts and we get into the Money Laundering issues all over again.

A quick check of nyra.com shows no need to be a New York resident.

cratman

09-23-2005, 03:47 AM

I had an account as an out of state resident.

Rook

09-24-2005, 11:32 AM

This proposed program is a joke. In order to get a mediocre 7%, you need to bet $6 million a year. :eek: That's $16,484 dollars a day, betting every day except Christmas.

The racetracks don't deserve our business. They make no effort to compete with the rebate shops who offer 12% on a bunch of tracks with a far, far lower bet requirement.

Woodbine is even more out of touch than the NYRA. Last week, I received a letter from them telling me that because they have started to commingle the bets from a few U.S. tracks, and the takeout has been reduced from 25% to 22.5%, bets on those tracks will no longer count towards their pathetic 0.5% rebate (which they call takeout adjustment) program.

This only made me shake my head instead of tick me off, since Woodbine has already completely lost my business with their anti-rebate stance. They have yet to figure out that 10% of something is infinitely bigger than 22% of nothing.

ratpack

09-24-2005, 11:16 PM

It may be a joke be at least they are doing something.

Here in California these people who work for the tracks get on these radio shows and basically yell at the fans for betting off shore to get the rebates. They have no answer on how to compete with the rebates except to say you have to support racing and those off shore books don't put a penny back into horse racing here in the states.

I agree that is a problem but even the announcers say they need to find a solution, just saying to the fan you need to support the game is not enough when then can get X% rebates back and a free cup of coffee if you get to the track before 10:30 am is not going to do it.

the little guy

09-24-2005, 11:59 PM

NYRA offers to start a rebate plan and somebody is complaining? You've got to be kidding. The first racetrack to finally attempt to start a serious rebate program and people are still dumping on them. That's really funny.

I haven't noticed a lot of other tracks offering 7% back, regardless of what you bet, and by the way, since NY races only five days a week, save Saratoga, it's actually a little over $23K a day. But the plan also calls for rebates, albeit lower ones, for people who bet less. At least it's a start.

But, more importantly, were NYRA allowed to put this plan into effect, how soon do you think it would be before other racetracks around the country, eventually all others, would follow suit? And, as more did it, don't you think the rebates will increase? And ultimately it will put more money back into ALL of our pockets. Isn't that the name of the game?

twindouble

09-25-2005, 12:19 AM

I haven't noticed a lot of other tracks offering 7% back, regardless of what you bet, and by the way, since NY races only five days a week, save Saratoga, it's actually a little over $23K a day. But the plan also calls for rebates, albeit lower ones, for people who bet less. At least it's a start.

But, more importantly, were NYRA allowed to put this plan into effect, how soon do you think it would be before other racetracks around the country, eventually all others, would follow suit? And, as more did it, don't you think the rebates will increase? And ultimately it will put more money back into ALL of our pockets. Isn't that the name of the game?[/QUOTE]

TLG; No I don't think that's the name of the game, historically rebates haven't been part of the game. At this point you may be right, we are stuck with what ever they come up with now or in the future but doesn't mean I or anyone else has to except that they came about to begin with or what's being proposed today.

the little guy

09-25-2005, 12:36 AM

Rook

09-25-2005, 12:48 AM

Little Guy wrote:
"NYRA offers to start a rebate plan and somebody is complaining? You've got to be kidding. "

I'm not complaining. I'm laughing at anyone who gets excited about such a lame program. With a 12% rebate, a good handicapper has a chance of making serious money. Without it or with something substantially less, he's throwing money away.

"The first racetrack to finally attempt to start a serious rebate program"

They are not the first (Woodbine for one has had a rebate program for years) and I wouldn't call it serious either, as the $6 million criteria eliminates 99.9% of their customers and the remaining 0.01% are still far better off with the rebate shops.

"and people are still dumping on them. That's really funny."

What's funny is that anyone is willing to defend such a pathetic program. Racetracks treat their customers like crap because most handicappers don't demand better service.

"I haven't noticed a lot of other tracks offering 7% back, regardless of what you bet"

Most tracks offer far more than 7% when they sell their signal to rebate shops with only a 3% cut for themselves. If they were smart, they would cut out the middleman and deal directly with the serious bettors but nobody has accused racetrack management of being run by sharps.

"And ultimately it will put more money back into ALL of our pockets. Isn't that the name of the game?"

The name of my game is to get money in my pocket immediately, not several years down the road. When selecting a stock account, I didn't wait around for my bank to drop their brokerage fees down from $29. I went out and found one that charges $1 to $4 per trade. If my bank offered a program that reduced fees down to $19 for those who paid more than $100,000 a year in commissions, I would have the same amount of enthusiasm as I do with the NYRA program. Neither are a sensible option.

DrugSalvastore

09-25-2005, 12:53 AM

does anyone else miss the exchange market that Ehorse had going???

It was low commision, and the liquidity was pretty good for races on the major circuits.

It's a good thing when any track offers a rebate program that's at least serious. I've heard stories that some tracks offer up to 5% rebates on live racing. I've heard from someone who bets at Northfield Park, that they give 3% rebates on all bets made on any racetrack throughout the country, and they give away a lot of free stuff on points besides that.

We all know that the takeout is barbaricly high at all tracks---NYRA likes to say they have "the lowest takeout in the country"---but come on, a 25% takeout in the trifecta and pick 3 is low??? I've always insisted that anyone who bets either trifecta's or Pick 3's on NYRA races has got to be a complete idiot---you are betting into the teeth of a 25% takeout, and into a pool that is loaded with money from informed and competent players...you can't do that stuff!!

It's a disgrace that a modern day bettor HAS TO--AND MUST--change their betting style from track-to-track to suit the takeout differences.

When I bet New York racing, I tend to bet the exacta (17.5% takeout) very aggressively---when I bet Cal racing---only on rare occasions do I even bother to play an exacta (20.68% takeout)

When I bet Southern Cal racing, I focus on multiple win wagers and trifecta betting (20.68% takeout) I bet a lot of NY racing, and it's very rare when I bet a trifecta, and often I don't play multiple win wagers (25% takeout.)

I'll make some win bets and occasional pick six stabs on both circuits. It's a joke that a serious bettor must let takeout rates dictate the way he bets races....but it's just the way it is!

midnight

09-25-2005, 03:37 AM

I don't see other tracks following suit with NYRA's proposed rebates.

As an example: NYRA lowered the takeout on win and exotic betting, and other tracks didn't rush to lower their takeouts.

plainolebill

09-25-2005, 04:58 AM

Does Pinnacle pay the tracks anything? Aren't they basically selling cars off someone else's lot? They can afford to throw in a sunroof - right?

The tracks don't have a lot of wiggle room when you consider that most of the money taken in goes either to the govt or purses AND they don't have a lot to say about the takeout - in most jurisdictions that would be the gubmint again. Good for NYRA.

09-25-2005, 07:05 AM

does anyone else miss the exchange market that Ehorse had going???

It was low commision, and the liquidity was pretty good for races on the major circuits.

A friend sent this to me, and since he also posted it on another board, I'm assuming he won't mind (note especially the bold type):

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Rook

09-25-2005, 08:17 AM

Plainolebill wrote:

"Does Pinnacle pay the tracks anything? Aren't they basically selling cars off someone else's lot? They can afford to throw in a sunroof - right? "

Pinnacle is not a rebate shop. It is an offshore bookie. They are an additional middleman. When Pinny covers or exceeds a customer's bet (and they most certianly do with successful players), they pump their money through the rebate shop. If there is a 25% takeout, the track gets 3%, the rebate shop gets about 7.5%, Pinny gets 7.5% and the Pinny customer gets 7%.

Yes, the tracks are fools for letting this situation persist, as they bear tremendous costs and receive the smallest cut. However, they can stop this bleeding by significantly reducing the takeout and offering generous rebates to their major customers (ie. By NYRA's classification: the little fry who "only" bets $5 million a year).

"The tracks don't have a lot of wiggle room when you consider that most of the money taken in goes either to the govt or purses AND they don't have a lot to say about the takeout - in most jurisdictions that would be the gubmint again. Good for NYRA."

The tracks have a ton of wiggle room, once they make it their prime objective to reduce the takeout rate. Sadly they do not. It's usually way down on the list of their priorities. A decade ago, a racing friendly Ontario government came into power and slashed the provincial take from 7% to 0.5%. Did Woodbine pass this on to the customer? No, they had a 26% takeout rate on exotics.

The tracks will set the takeout rate as high as they feel customers will not notice. And with exotic takeouts at many tracks above 24%, they must think their customers are total idiots.

Well, their idiot base is declining every year because by not making lower takeouts their overwhelming priority, they lose customers every year to casinos, sportsbooks and rebate shops.

the little guy

09-25-2005, 09:50 AM

I don't see other tracks following suit with NYRA's proposed rebates.

As an example: NYRA lowered the takeout on win and exotic betting, and other tracks didn't rush to lower their takeouts." Proposed " being your key word. Let's see what happens if and when an aggressive rebate plan is actually in action. Remember something else, NYRA wants to offer this, but the State Racing and Wagering Board won't let them.

speculus

09-25-2005, 10:12 AM

Rebates are a dumb way to do things.

The only real solution, if horse racing industry as a whole, has to survive and get healthier and stronger, is to charge ONLY 3 percent takeout on WIN, PLACE and SHOW pools.

Even Betfair will find it difficult to survive if this happens.

I believe there will be a dramatic change in the fortunes of every track that takes this bold decision.

aaron

09-25-2005, 10:17 AM

The State Racing and Wagering Board does not have a clue.Check out who is on the board and see if any of them even know what what a daily double is.These are patronage jobs,no knowledge required.As witnessed by the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina we all see what happends when incompetent people are put in positions of authority.At least, in racing it only costs us money.
As for NYRA,come to Belmont during the week and see what a great job they are doing.They don't want people to come to the track,no matter what they say.If they wanted people to come to the track they would be customer friendly.Last Saturday,they rented the parking lot out to Lexus.Leaving the track with about 7000 people in attendance was like leaving on Belmont day.
Ever since the so called "new regime" has come in all they have done is blame everything on Spitzer and the government.
NYRA has never taken responsiability for their actions.
An example of this is the problem with the weights.NYRA finds out about this,then lets it go on for a longer time,deceives the public even more,then gives up the clerk of scales to the feds.Why not,just stop it and put an end as soon as you find out about it?
I think they let it linger,so they could have some indictments to give to the Feds.
They threw these clerks to the feds so they could make themselves look good.

Figman

09-25-2005, 11:21 AM

Dear Aaron,
You know NOT of what you sputter concerning the Racing and Wagering Board!
They were able to solve the Breeders Cup Pick Six fix AND provide enough information to get three convictions in just a week's time. That's good work!

And the Chairman of the Racing and Wagering Board is not only a former State Senator but also a former horse owner. Kindly offer informed opinions in the future.

aaron

09-25-2005, 12:12 PM

Figman-
They did not solve the Breeders Cup Scandal.Common sense told you there was a scam involved and it didn't take Dick Tracy to solve it.If they were so smart how come they weren't able to catch the thieves when they did it before.The only reason they were caught was because of the longshot in the Classic.
Also,ask them why the parlay bet at NYRA is still not programmed correctly.As a matter of fact ask them what a $2.00 wp parlay should cost.I'll bet you get an incorrect answer.

twindouble

09-25-2005, 12:19 PM

Is there a reason you are rehashing the same discussion you and I have had quite throughly on another board?

As I said to you before, rebates are here, and they have been for ten years, and they aren't going to go away. Racetracks have to deal with this one way or another.....period. Yes, I know you finally have grasped my " lower the take-out and raise the simulcast fees and rebates will go away " opinion, as you repeated it in another post, but until that happens, and obviously I wish it would, racetracks have to face this issue head on.

Are there any other points of our previous discussion that I should repeat here?

By the way, one more thing, the word is " accept ", not except. :cool:

Not rehashing, just looking for a little attention. :D If I remember correctly, I had more questions about rebates than I did input other than the fact I expressed my dislike for them. I see nothing wrong with you repeating your thoughts on the subject here or anywhere else, ESP for any new person to the game, besides you can spell much better than I. Just remember it's grammar, not grammer. See, I can still learn something. :cool:

Figman

09-25-2005, 12:24 PM

Common sense does not get you convictions. In litigation, the prosecution must present proof with undisputable facts. That was the role of the Racing and Wagering Board for the Pick Six case in presenting law enforcement with the facts. Common sense is not proof. Note the "OJ" case.

If you want to be a $2 win place parlay on a United Tote system as at NYRA, bet the win part on one ticket and the place part on second ticket. In this way it will cost you a total of $4.

The fact of the matter is that on a single ticket with multiple pools, Scientific Games and United Tote have different parlay software.

aaron

09-25-2005, 12:32 PM

Figman-
I must give you the point that they did prove it in court.No argument there.
The correct amount on a $2.00 wp parlay is $8.00.The $4.00 amount is simply a $2.00 win parlay and a $2.00 place parlay.This is not a $2.00 wp parlay.

PaceAdvantage

09-25-2005, 09:25 PM

An example of this is the problem with the weights.NYRA finds out about this,then lets it go on for a longer time,deceives the public even more,then gives up the clerk of scales to the feds.Why not,just stop it and put an end as soon as you find out about it?
I think they let it linger,so they could have some indictments to give to the Feds.
They threw these clerks to the feds so they could make themselves look good.

You're dead wrong on this one. NYRA alerted the authorities as SOON as they discovered what was going on.....

It was the FEDS and SPITZER who MADE it go on longer, so that they could get their "evidence" in place. It was the AUTHORITIES who allowed the "weight problems" to continue, not NYRA.....

aaron

09-26-2005, 07:26 AM

Thanks PA-
Then the Feds actually allowed the chrade to continue.I don't think this was as big a deal as it has been made to be,but the public has to have the correct information.Under the circumstances,I can understand how it was handled,but in my opinion it should have been handled internally and stopped as soon as it occurred.

09-26-2005, 07:51 AM

I know we have some data in the PPs that is open to interpretation and relies on human judgement, such as BLs, the comment, and other. But now we have false data interspersed in the PPs for a long time to come.

I guess if one doesn't believe weight matters it isn't important, but certainly some do.

aaron

09-26-2005, 08:58 AM

I understand that people who make figures use weight in their calculations,but if one is to believe what NYRA and the Feds say was going on,[I have no reason not to believe them]then figure makers have been using the wrong weight for a long period of time.This occurance probably has been going on for sometime and it probably is going on at tracks besides NYRA.