View Full Version : Weekend of the Rabbit(s)?
First off, the Woodward, a race steeped in tradition, looks like a complete joke of a race.
Dutrow has entered not one, but two rabbits, because he feels Commentator stole the Whitney. You don't steal races with the kind of figure I had his pace for the race, and even the raw time will tell you Commentator was smoking up front. The sad thing is seeing two hopelessly outclassed horses being sacrificed for another. I don't even think the horses have the same owners as St. Liam, so I'd love to know what kind of backroom deal was cut to get them in the race. It is also sad that a great race like the Woodward could only draw two legitimate horses...but such in racing these days.
Graham Motion has also entered a rabbit, Shake the Bank, in the Man O' War Stakes, to help his horse Better Talk Now. My guess is that it will help Relaxed Gesture a lot more than it will help Better Talk Now.
We can barely get competitive fields to bet on anymore in New York, and now we have horses that could be run in proper spots sacrificed where they have no chance. Oh well, back to handicapping Great Lakes Downs and Charles Town. The money won there spends the same as money won at Belmont, where racing is becoming un-bettable.
the little guy
09-09-2005, 09:37 AM
I'm glad to read someone else that agrees with me about the ownership issue. I think this is not only downright unethical, but borderline illegal, and am shocked there isn't more of an uproar. All rabbits I can remember had similar owners ( and not even the same trainers ). Hell, Strike the Gold's connections went so far as to buy Loach in order to have a rabbit for him. Had they known it was simply OK to bribe another owner to sacrifice his horse, I'm sure they might have gone the cheaper route ( God knows Dick Lundy wishes they had ).
If you ask me, this smacks of tampering with a sporting event, but maybe some of our more legally connected posters ( or lurkers ) can check this point out.
rokitman
09-09-2005, 10:43 AM
This always ticks me off too. We can beat the faster horse if we run him into the ground with a horse with no chance to win. Yeah, and you can also beat him if you shoot him with a gun when he comes out of the gate. So what. Zito, and any trainer in this situation, should have a horse entered whose only purpose is to mess with Saint Liam. Maybe a little bump out of the gate..push him wide going into the turn... get in front of him and kick some dirt face. As far as the "clabbit" can go, he torments. Maybe then the rabbit nonsense will end.
Lukas put a rabbit on Holy Bull in his Travers and Holy Bull ran him into the ground and won anyway. And better yet, it was not Lukas' horse who was in the photo for the win. It was the little horse that could-Concern. Hopefully, the same thing will happen this time.
Commentator ran 46 2/5 and 1:09 3/5 last time. Someone is gonna make him run faster? Heh.
dutzman
09-09-2005, 12:27 PM
My friend and I were talking about this very topic last night. I noticed that the two other Dutrow horses have the same owner. Plus, they paid $140,000 for Crafty Player. Seems like some deal had to have been cut to enter these horses. If the case, this is highly unethical in my opinion. Plus, why as an owner would you take the risk?? They have no respect for their horses what so ever.......
dutzman
09-09-2005, 12:31 PM
And notice how they couldn't even get a semi good jock to ride these two horses.....this is a travesty
GMB@BP
09-09-2005, 02:02 PM
First off, the Woodward, a race steeped in tradition, looks like a complete joke of a race.
Dutrow has entered not one, but two rabbits, because he feels Commentator stole the Whitney. You don't steal races with the kind of figure I had his pace for the race, and even the raw time will tell you Commentator was smoking up front. The sad thing is seeing two hopelessly outclassed horses being sacrificed for another. I don't even think the horses have the same owners as St. Liam, so I'd love to know what kind of backroom deal was cut to get them in the race. It is also sad that a great race like the Woodward could only draw two legitimate horses...but such in racing these days.
Graham Motion has also entered a rabbit, Shake the Bank, in the Man O' War Stakes, to help his horse Better Talk Now. My guess is that it will help Relaxed Gesture a lot more than it will help Better Talk Now.
We can barely get competitive fields to bet on anymore in New York, and now we have horses that could be run in proper spots sacrificed where they have no chance. Oh well, back to handicapping Great Lakes Downs and Charles Town. The money won there spends the same as money won at Belmont, where racing is becoming un-bettable.
its a joke
frankly I always enjoyed playing the best horses but you may be right, the path to profit may lead through those type tracks. so very sad.
tholl
09-09-2005, 04:20 PM
Saw many "pacemakers" growing up in England. Never really saw much wrong with it there as most decent European turf horses don't want the lead and ensuring a good pace allowed them to settle and usually stopped the race from being a slowly run farce. They always ran as seperate betting interests which was fine since everyone knew what they were doing and if you did'nt than you had no business betting. However, I do remember a 2 1/4 mile handicap at Royal Ascot in which the pacemaker got so far ahead he never got caught at odds of 100/1.
I have often wondered why very few turf trainers use rabbits here. Seems there is no end to top turf races being won on the front end; Sand Springs at Saratoga and Sweet Return and Intercontinental at Del Mar are three recent winners that come to mind. However all three of these have ability also to rate just off the pace if need be. Why would'nt other trainers put a horse in to ensure some pace to give their's a better chance ? In that context I don't think it's unsporting or bad for the sport. I actually think its good and I think by Motion running the rabbit it only makes for a better Man O War.
However, I do remember hearing about a controversy in England after I left in which somebody entered a rag steeplechaser to ruin the chances of a well known and popular front runner, who had never been able to rate. There was no other reason for the horse to be entered since the front runner was going to ensure a solid pace by himself.(Can't remeber the trainers or the race involved but think it was either the Hennessey Gold Cup or the Cheltenham Gold Cup, two of the top Steeplechases of the season ). While not against any rules i would have to agree that it was unsporting and not to the benefit of the sport.
And that's how I view Dutrow tommorrow; very differently in my mind to Motion. Due to the fact he is targetting one horse and not the race in general.
One question is when has a rabbit actually worked in a dirt race ?
GMB@BP
09-09-2005, 04:38 PM
I dont have a problem with the rabbit, its the ownership issue, "consipiracy to fix a sporting event" comes to mind.
rokitman
09-09-2005, 04:55 PM
Dutrow's Yankee Mon just got beat by Clever Electrician at odds of 1:2. Gonna have to put some sedative or sumthin' in that gadamn Clever Electrician's feed next time. :cool:
Now that everyone knows this about the other speed horses, why couldn't they just try and rate COMMENTATOR a tad?? Or we could see where he will run both of them into the ground, thing is about the two fav's, their both coming off life time best and one or both could back up and still win it. Only horse I could see giving them a race would be SHANIKO if one or the other bounces high enough.
tholl
09-09-2005, 10:45 PM
Now that everyone knows this about the other speed horses, why couldn't they just try and rate COMMENTATOR a tad?? Or we could see where he will run both of them into the ground, thing is about the two fav's, their both coming off life time best and one or both could back up and still win it. Only horse I could see giving them a race would be SHANIKO if one or the other bounces high enough.
Easier said than done I think. Not sure that it would be possible to get Commentator to rate any, he would probably lose the race fighting Gary Stevens if it was tried. St Liam can rate and will obviously benefit but the big closer could of course be Zitos othe runner, Sir Shackleton. Commentator could turn out to be his "rabbit" lol
toetoe
09-09-2005, 11:13 PM
I'll have Mr. Frankel speak to the owners. Make them an offer they'll not be able to refuse.
I guess Rock Hard Ten is not race-ready? I haven't even seen the entries. Is Imperialism running? Borrego? Seems to me some turf-to-dirters might do okay.
St. Liam's race was exceptional, although he couldn't catch Commentator. Prado got jocked off after a great ride! I still think Commentator is the best out there right now.
rokitman
09-09-2005, 11:36 PM
TSN E2 for the Whitney a monstrous 123. Gonna be hard for anybody to soften Commentator up from several lengths behind.
I was there on Whitney day. We went out back and leaned on the rail of the horse path that leads to the saddling area behind the grandstand to see the Big Boys up close. Commentator, literally, spit on one of my sisters as he went by. I informed her that was a Sacred Message from The Gods of Racing who often do such cruel but secretly meaningful things to newbies at Saratoga-she must now play Commentator. She did. She looked like she had just hit the lottery when he won.
A shame I don't believe my own bullspit. I had, uhhh, someone else :)
GeTydOn
09-10-2005, 12:00 AM
Guess it's wabbit season!
Interesting that the rabbit(s) with no shot to win stand(s) to have a very lucrative day even with a last-place finish. Imagine if something weird happened and the rabbit(s) finished better than last.
Tampering with a sporting event? How so? Because they made their game-plan public before the gates open?
Stakes races around the country are a joke and considering the grossly depleted handicap division it ain't no surprise the Woodward turned out like it has.
Nevermind about the horse I though might run alright.
"Aaron and Marie Jones' Shaniko will be scratched from Saturday's Woodward Stakes (gr. I), racing manager Buzz Chace said Friday after talking to the Joneses and trainer Todd Pletcher. With Shaniko out, trainer Rick Dutrow will run both Crafty Player and Show Boot as pacesetters for Saint Liam.
Trainer Nick Zito has the other two entrants in the Woodward -- Commentator and Sir Shackleton.
"If (Shaniko) is scratched I'm going to run both horses," Dutrow said earlier on Friday. "I'm sending them to Belmont anyway just to be ready in case there is a scratch. If Shaniko does come out, I can pick up $13,000 or $14,000 just for finishing last, and it'll help us press the pace as well."
Hey, after playing Evd last Sunday, You can keep Belmont closed for all I care. EVD had better betting races that I have seen at NYRA all year. When they come down the stretch, you can't tell if it's St Liam or Red Apple. Unitl they put up the prices. LOL!
TLG said it right. I always though throwing in a rabbit was an admission that your horse was crap.
DrugSalvastore
09-10-2005, 05:20 AM
The two rabbits are going to make $25,000 (5%) and $15,000 (3%) in earnings if in fact Shaniko scratches...and that's assuming they finish last and 2nd to last, which they will unless someone breaks down.
I can't believe that some of you guys are suggesting that a saint like Rick Dutrow Jr. would do something "unethical" or "illegal" Hard to believe!
Obviously Dutrow has no problems resorting to stuff like this to give himself an edge. I have a hunch that Mr. Dutrow is the kind of guy who will do anything it takes to give himself any kind of an advantage.
He's had two assistants trainers, Cleveland Johnson and J-Rod, look like the 2nd coming of "Sunny" Jim Fitzsimmons when they have taken over training duties for a suspended Dutrow. He also employs a certain vet who is becoming more and more notorious as every year passes.
I don't visually notice things when I look at Durtrow horses that suggest he's cheating or using something shady. His horses don't always look like living four-legged ads for Winstrol (like Pletcher horses do) but I'm not naive! This guy has an edge that other people don't! I don't know if it's a legal or an illegal edge--but I know he has one!
DrugSalvastore
09-10-2005, 05:35 AM
TLG said it right. I always though throwing in a rabbit was an admission that your horse was crap.
In Europe they call them "pace makers" and they do have a positive effect on the race instead of a negative one. One of the great turf horses of the last several years was a horse named Sinndar. He won the Arc, and was an all-around top turf horse for The Aga Kahn.
Sinndar always had a pacemaker named Raypour (sp?) who would go out and set a strong solid pace while Sinndar would race back in 2nd. His pace-maker was just there to make sure he wouldn't be stuck on the lead through slow fractions (obviously a much more ideal trip in our country!)
I know someone already mentioned this about "Euro rabbits"--but at least over there, it seems like they are helping there horse, over here it seems like the rabbit is only running to harm the chances of a rival horse. That's a big differance in my opinion.
Did anyone like how Better Talk Now's rabbit let him slide right up the rail real nice in the United Nations?? That had to be planned--Turner rode the best race of any jockey in that field--and he was on the rabbit. If someone with the talent level of Herby Castillo was on the rabbit, he probably would have been late getting off the rail, and would have shut Better Talk Now off on accident.
Here is a question....why doesn't NYRA just cancel the race when it drew so few entries?
Valuist
09-10-2005, 10:04 AM
I'm surprised at the complete lack of respect Commentator is getting. In the Pinnacle match line, Saint Liam is a Pedro Martinez-like minus 257 while the takeback on Commentator is plus 227. I thought St Liam would be favored but nowhere close to even -200, let alone -257. I'm not sure these rabbits are going to be able to stay around Commentator very long.
Drugs,
It's just the purist in me...I think a horse should not be entered in a race with the goal of running half of it. If you aint' there to win, you don't belong.
But then, I don't make my living off the races, so I can afford to look at them as more than a business deal. But I guess if I owned a hrose in there, I'd be sing in different key!;)
Like the DH in baseball - never had any use for them. You wanna play, play the whole game.
Yes on the DRF poll SL was a big fav. I guess people are buying into the whole pace thing. It would be funny if one of the rabbits would win.
GeTydOn
09-10-2005, 04:38 PM
Here is a question....why doesn't NYRA just cancel the race when it drew so few entries?
Ever heard of a walkover? Like those have never happened.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Last walkover I remeber was Slew Of Gold.
Not too many running today that are in his class.
With today's horses, if Belmont offerd a walkover, I would walkover to the Monmouth window and play that track.
BillW
09-10-2005, 05:28 PM
Last walkover I remeber was Slew Of Gold.
Not too many running today that are in his class.
With today's horses, if Belmont offerd a walkover, I would walkover to the Monmouth window and play that track.
Didn't Skip Away run a walkover?
Sharp Cat definitely had a walkover in Cali.
I love that the rabbit entry is only 12-1...who bets on horses like this?
rokitman
09-10-2005, 05:44 PM
That gaddamn autobettor I made is on the fritz again!
BillW
09-10-2005, 05:45 PM
Sharp Cat definitely had a walkover in Cali.
That was it! Bayakoa H. 1997.
Before that the Bid in the '80 Woodward, Coaltown in the '49 Edward Burke, Citation in the '48 Pimlico Special and Stymie in the '46 Saratoga Cup.
BillW
09-10-2005, 05:46 PM
That gaddamn autobettor I made is on the fritz again!
That was your 100K bet at the last tick :eek: :lol:
rokitman
09-10-2005, 05:50 PM
Ya know, that $500,000-our money. What a pile of shit.
I was laughing my azz off, at just the way Saint L. won that race, I don't think Jerry even made one move on him.
Didn't Skip Away run a walkover?
Maybe....I said I didn't remeber. And I don't remeber the 70's!
But...I'll remember today's card at Belmont...what a joke of a card. What happened, the Northway backed up - can't get home from Toga?
Sheeez......talk about short filed. I printed the entire card out on two sheet of paper:rolleyes:
Ah, Mountaineer tonight, and harness. At least they have 8 in a race, usually.
Belmont seems to 8 in the whole pic 4! :faint:
rokitman
09-10-2005, 05:53 PM
That was your 100K bet at the last tick :eek: :lol:
I'm afraid so, Bill. Someday, I'm gonna teach that thing the difference between a comma and a period.
Oh yes on TVG they talked to Richard D. before the race and he said this is the best horse in the past 10 years.
BillW
09-10-2005, 05:58 PM
Maybe....I said I didn't remeber. And I don't remeber the 70's!
Guess I didn't either :bang: (see above a few posts)
Looking over Skip Away PP's, he never ran in a walkover.
the little guy
09-10-2005, 07:47 PM
Oh yes on TVG they talked to Richard D. before the race and he said this is the best horse in the past 10 years.If he really thought that why did he shame himself by sending out a two-tiered tag team against Commentator? That performance, and if you didn't see the head on you can't understand what went on, was an absolute disgrace. Dutrow did himself a disservice today and what went on out there was as distasteful an occurance as I have ever seen at the racetrack.
Yeah, Zito is my friend, and I watched the race with him and he NEVER complained at all about the rabbits. St. Liam lost the Whitney fair and square, and he would have won the Woodward fair and square even if Dutrow hadn't perpetrated what he did today. But, because of his actions, at least as far as I'm concerned, he tainted the victory of a very fine racehorse. Best racehorse in ten years? Hell, he's not even the best racehorse of 2005. St Liam carried Ghostzapper out 15 paths in last year's Woodward and still couldn't beat him. Puleeeeeze!
TheRipper
09-11-2005, 12:37 AM
Saint's Liam's performance was tainted?? Puleez!
A horse's performance shouldn't be tainted by other factors surrounding a given race.
Why no uproar over Motion's rabbit in the Man o'War for Better Talk Now, who won in a photo while his mate Shake the Bank checked in last of 11.
The argument for Dutrow's two rabbits could at least be that they made a decent chunk of change today since the field was so small. Maybe the probables prior to entry as well as potential field-size played into the decision making of entering those two?
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but it seemed like in years past (not recent) trainers were more willing to step up to the plate for a swing when fields were on the smaller side for big events. These days, it seems more like trainers stick with where they believe their horses "belong" rather than taking a chance. At the same time, runners don't really get together for a battle much anymore. "Top" runners have schedules mapped out to avoid tough conflicts until the "big" dances, like the Derby, BC Classic.
Rematches are rare these days, until they become unavoidable. Today was one of those rematches, and it was a runaway. Hopefully they both stay healthy and turn up for the showdown in the BC Classic.
In another interview after the "Best Racehorse in 10 years" comment. Dutrow was pinned down & admitted that he was a bit biased regarding St Liam(Uh, duh ya don't say) :D & that to him/for him St Liam was the best racehorse in the last ten years.
Macdiarmadillo
09-11-2005, 03:51 AM
Somebody's not paying attention to the idea of using somebody else's horse for rabbits, and two at that. It has the putrid odor of collusion, no? What if Zito put some other horse in the gate next to St. Liam and it "happened" to smack St. Liam as hard as he could out of the gate? Just maybe would someone be squawking about that?
Also let's see if it was worth it for the owners of Show Boot and Crafty Player to get that $40k on Saturday. Commentator buried them both (purposely?) and many times buried horses never come back to what they were before.
PaceAdvantage
09-11-2005, 04:03 AM
If he really thought that why did he shame himself by sending out a two-tiered tag team against Commentator? That performance, and if you didn't see the head on you can't understand what went on, was an absolute disgrace. Dutrow did himself a disservice today and what went on out there was as distasteful an occurance as I have ever seen at the racetrack.
After watching the race a few more times, I'm inclined to agree. They not only tried to set a fast pace, they were desperately trying to box him in....but that attempt failed when Stevens was able to out maneuver Rojas, whose head was moving around (looking for Commentator) more than my Jerry Bailey bobble-head doll when I've got Metallica cranked at 11 with the sub-woofer at full blast!
Now, I don't really have a problem with a trainer entering a rabbit. It happens all the time in racing.
What I have a HUGE problem with is the fact that these two "rabbits" were a SEPARATE betting interest!!!!! It boggles my mind that this was allowed to play out the way that it did....the unsuspecting bettor, the newbie, DOES NOT KNOW that this SEPARATE betting interest is ONLY in the race to help ANOTHER SEPARATE BETTING INTEREST WIN!!!!
TVG's Todd Schrupp, in his pre-race interview of Dutrow, specifically stated that those two rabbits were in the race to HELP SAINT LIAM WIN when he questioned Dutrow. Think about this for a moment.
When was the last race you remember that contained a separate betting interest whose sole purpose was to help another independent betting interest win a race?
HOW IN THE WORLD IS THIS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE BETTING PUBLIC?
You guys are all crazy. We're talking about Dickie Dutrow here. Running some rabbits to help St Liam isn't the least ethical thing that he has done! There is no way he felt any shame for this.
Did anyone notice one of the rabbits being practically strangled by his rider, Rudy R. Rodriguez , until Commentator moved next to him? That was disgraceful...
EDIT...I hadn't seen PA's post yet, obviously he saw it too!
tholl
09-11-2005, 09:50 AM
You guys are all crazy. We're talking about Dickie Dutrow here. Running some rabbits to help St Liam isn't the least ethical thing that he has done! There is no way he felt any shame for this.
Possibly the only legal unethical thing he's done.
the little guy
09-11-2005, 10:12 AM
After watching the race a few more times, I'm inclined to agree. They not only tried to set a fast pace, they were desperately trying to box him in....but that attempt failed when Stevens was able to out maneuver Rojas, whose head was moving around (looking for Commentator) more than my Jerry Bailey bobble-head doll when I've got Metallica cranked at 11 with the sub-woofer at full blast!
Now, I don't really have a problem with a trainer entering a rabbit. It happens all the time in racing.
What I have a HUGE problem with is the fact that these two "rabbits" were a SEPARATE betting interest!!!!! It boggles my mind that this was allowed to play out the way that it did....the unsuspecting bettor, the newbie, DOES NOT KNOW that this SEPARATE betting interest is ONLY in the race to help ANOTHER SEPARATE BETTING INTEREST WIN!!!!
TVG's Todd Schrupp, in his pre-race interview of Dutrow, specifically stated that those two rabbits were in the race to HELP SAINT LIAM WIN when he questioned Dutrow. Think about this for a moment.
When was the last race you remember that contained a separate betting interest whose sole purpose was to help another independent betting interest win a race?
HOW IN THE WORLD IS THIS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE BETTING PUBLIC?Thank you.
I don't think any of us have problems with rabbits, they have been used for years, but to compare Better Talk Now's rabbit to the uncoupled entry that physically ganged up on Commentator is to completely misrepresent the respective situations.
aaron
09-11-2005, 10:14 AM
The amazing thing in this race is the rabbits were only 13-1.I wish I could have booked that action.
As for Dutrow and the other miracle workers,as long as racing is unable to police the sport they will continue to prosper.
The detention barn has not changed much.The same trainers are winning.The only one it may have affected was Scott Lake.I don't have the answers and it probably was a good idea,but in reality it is probably a waste of time and money to continue with the detention barn.
Does anyone here know the e-mail address to send a letter to the editor of DRF? I've done it before, but I can't find it anywhere on the site.
I found it, editor@drf.com
Since the DRF columnists seem to be praising this strategy, I doubt this letter will ever see print, but here is what I wrote:
Dear Sir,
As a dedicated fan of the racing game for over 20 years, I am absolutely appalled at the tactics employed by Richard Dutrow and his gang of thugs in the Woodward Stakes. I am well aware that the use of "rabbits" has been going on for years in big races, but this went far beyond that. This was an extremely unappetizing betting race, so this is not a "sour grapes, I lost a bet" type letter.
A "rabbit" is usually entered to ensure a fast paced race, not allowing another horse to steal away on an easy lead. Yesterday, however, went far beyond this. First, not one, but two rabbits were entered. One horse, Show Boot ridden by Raul Rojas, did precisely this. The second horse, Crafty Player ridden by Rudy Rodriguez, was another story. After breaking alertly, the jockey put the horse in a hammerlock until Commentator moved along side. He then vigorously began riding his horse to just harass Commentator. It was totally unsportsmanlike and sad to see. Did anyone wonder why some of the top jockeys didn't want any parts of riding these horses?
The second part of this sad episode was that these horses were actually uncoupled in the wagering with the benificiary of the actions, St. Liam. How in the world could another owner(s) be talked into allowing their horses to be used in such a manner? How many new bettors actually gambled and lost money on this chanceless entry that had no intention of even trying to win the race? It seems like business as usual, nobody cares what is in the best interest of the bettors.
Mr. Dutrow should be ashamed of himself, as should the jockeys of the "rabbits," as well as the owners of those horses. They took a great race, steeped in tradition, and made a mockery of it and our sport. The real irony is the result would have been the same without these tactics.
Sincerely,
Craig J. Milkowski
Aninal farm at Belmont Saturday -
3 legitimate racehorses
2 cheap rabbits
1 rather large ASS
KingChas
09-11-2005, 10:56 AM
Although I agree with what many of you have said here,Why the Shock?The intentions were well stated before the race.We all knew what was coming.Didn't Mr. Zito benefit from a couple rabbit-like jockey rides a few years back with a horse named Birdstone in a lot bigger race than this?Sometimes in horseracing what goes around comes around. ;)
First, a rabbit is one thing, just putting a horse in to harass another is completely different. I mean, this horse had no chance of winning, and was even trying to aid another, UNCOUPLED, horse.
Intentions stated beforehand? I must have missed the quote where Dutrow said he was instructing Rudy Rodriguez to not try for the lead, but to place himself alongside Commentator, even if you have to stand up in the saddle.
As for the Birdstone Belmont, did Zito have another horse in the race other than late running Royal Assault? I don't think so.
Zito did buy Loach a few years back to run with Stike the Gold, but they were always an entry. Not only that, but Loach was the worst rabbit in history, he hardly ever even made the lead!
the little guy
09-11-2005, 11:06 AM
Although I agree with what many of you have said here,Why the Shock?The intentions were well stated before the race.We all knew what was coming.Didn't Mr. Zito benefit from a couple rabbit-like jockey rides a few years back with a horse named Birdstone in a lot bigger race than this?Sometimes in horseracing what goes around comes around. ;)I'm sorry, I must be confused, as I get the impression that you think what went on in yesterday's Woodward is somehow comparable to last year's Belmont. I must be confused....as that's possibly the worst analogy I've ever seen in my life.
To suggest that a horse that benefitted from the race dynamics of a specific race, and was able to beat a horse that was probably better than him, somehow compares to an uncoupled entry, with no chance whatsoever, being entered with the express purpose of intimidating another foe, is beyond comprehension. But, I'm sure I misread your post, as nobody could make that kind of analogy....at least seriously.
Sorry in advance for my poor reading skills.
the little guy
09-11-2005, 11:08 AM
The Loach purchase did accomplish one thing....it sent Dick Lundy to jail.
KingChas
09-11-2005, 11:18 AM
First off, the Woodward, a race steeped in tradition, looks like a complete joke of a race.
Dutrow has entered not one, but two rabbits, because he feels Commentator stole the Whitney. You don't steal races with the kind of figure I had his pace for the race, and even the raw time will tell you Commentator was smoking up front. The sad thing is seeing two hopelessly outclassed horses being sacrificed for another. I don't even think the horses have the same owners as St. Liam, so I'd love to know what kind of backroom deal was cut to get them in the race. It is also sad that a great race like the Woodward could only draw two legitimate horses...but such in racing these days.
.
CJ,here is your piece to open the thread.Intentions stated before hand ?9/9/05.Seems to me what you were waiting for happened.
TLG, Smarty was mugged-just in a different way.
What's poor Nick going to do now, put him in races where he's the lone speed. Is there anymore speed horses going to run in the BC?? I think the horse can handle the fast paces, along horses or no horses, maybe it just wasnt his day to run his A race, coming off those big efforts.
DrugSalvastore
09-11-2005, 11:47 AM
All we really learned in that race--is that St. Liam is a lot better than Sir Shack., and frankly, I think we all knew that anyway!
You knew going into the race what would happen, and it happened.
No one can fault the 3rd place finisher for fading after what happened early on.
This race just goes to show you the lengths Rick Dutrow Jr. is willing to go to gain an advantage. It's really that simple. I think the race says more about Dutrow Jr. the person than it says about St. Liam the horse.
St. Liam is a VERY good race horse--but don't kid yourself--his win yesterday proves very little. At least to me anyways.
the little guy
09-11-2005, 11:52 AM
All we really learned in that race--is that St. Liam is a lot better than Sir Shack., and frankly, I think we all knew that anyway!
You knew going into the race what would happen, and it happened.
No one can fault the 3rd place finisher for fading after what happened early on.
This race just goes to show you the lengths Rick Dutrow Jr. is willing to go to gain an advantage. It's really that simple. I think the race says more about Dutrow Jr. the person than it says about St. Liam the horse.
St. Liam is a VERY good race horse--but don't kid yourself--his win yesterday proves very little. At least to me anyways.I wish I could have said it that well myself.
Then what should we all say about Nick?? Didn't he know what was going to happen, but yet he left his horse in the race. Or maybe he was thinking he could get 2nd place money. Wonder where he goes now with him??
KingChas
09-11-2005, 12:04 PM
What's poor Nick going to do now, put him in races where he's the lone speed. Is there anymore speed horses going to run in the BC?? I think the horse can handle the fast paces, along horses or no horses, maybe it just wasnt his day to run his A race, coming off those big efforts.
Well said Kev,such is the problem these days with the one-dimensional so called better horses racing right now.
KirisClown
09-11-2005, 12:10 PM
Then what should we all say about Nick?? Didn't he know what was going to happen, but yet he left his horse in the race. Or maybe he was thinking he could get 2nd place money. Wonder where he goes now with him??
Maybe he'll give him some time and get him ready for the Cigar Mile.... none of the BC races seem to suit him perfectly.
twindouble
09-11-2005, 12:14 PM
I'm sorry, I must be confused, as I get the impression that you think what went on in yesterday's Woodward is somehow comparable to last year's Belmont. I must be confused....as that's possibly the worst analogy I've ever seen in my life.
To suggest that a horse that benefitted from the race dynamics of a specific race, and was able to beat a horse that was probably better than him, somehow compares to an uncoupled entry, with no chance whatsoever, being entered with the express purpose of intimidating another foe, is beyond comprehension. But, I'm sure I misread your post, as nobody could make that kind of analogy....at least seriously.
Sorry in advance for my poor reading skills.
Your absolutely right! But what's in bold was totally unnecessary to get your point across. Just my opinion.
T.D.
KingChas
09-11-2005, 12:37 PM
Your absolutely right! But what's in bold was totally unnecessary to get your point across. Just my opinion.
T.D.
No problem here,TLG does not intimidate me one bit,enjoy his replies.He is actually right.My point wasn't well written.I was more or less stating certain situations that benefit horses/trainers.This has been going on for ages it has happened before with rabbits and roughriding(strategy).If you want to blame someone for yesterday blame NYRA.(Uncoupled)This is a business for the trainers-Dutrow played hardball thats,that.Its all about the $$$$ isn't it?
the little guy
09-11-2005, 12:49 PM
Your absolutely right! But what's in bold was totally unnecessary to get your point across. Just my opinion.
T.D.It's nice to see that in such a short time you have already made yourself the self-appointed Pace-Advantage manners matron. Congratulations.
As you can see, King Chas is smart enough to know I was just having fun with him.
twindouble
09-11-2005, 01:29 PM
It's nice to see that in such a short time you have already made yourself the self-appointed Pace-Advantage manners matron. Congratulations.
As you can see, King Chas is smart enough to know I was just having fun with him.
Good come back but you missed the mark, I'm know that remarks like that are very contagious, just look what happened to the DRF forum. If it starts up here, I'm gone! As far as I'm concerned members have a right to express their dissatisfaction with what's being said without feeling like they are taking over the board. Pace does great job here and we are part of it. The truth of the matter is you were the key person on the drf forum that had the opertunity to keep things civil but you elected to add to it and perpetuate it. As far as I'm concerned, your a dam good handicapper but you could very easly add to that by putting a damper on your remarks and get your due respect. Besides how in the heck could anyone new to this forum know you were just "joking" or know what your personal relationship is with forum members? So just pulling something out of the hat don't work with me as you should know by now.
Good luck,
T.D.
the little guy
09-11-2005, 02:45 PM
Exactly how did you become the arbiter of what's right and wrong in chat room posting? Is this an elected, appointed, or self-appointed position? Simply place me on ignore if you can't control yourself from entering into discussions you aren't involved in for the express purpose of chastising me. I think the many fine posters in this room can take care of themselves. If they find themselves in over their heads at any time in the future I give them my full permission to call you in to put me in my proper place ( or hopefully any other poster that is picking on them ).
GMB@BP
09-11-2005, 02:54 PM
Exactly how did you become the arbiter of what's right and wrong in chat room posting? Is this an elected, appointed, or self-appointed position? Simply place me on ignore if you can't control yourself from entering into discussions you aren't involved in for the express purpose of chastising me. I think the many fine posters in this room can take care of themselves. If they find themselves in over their heads at any time in the future I give them my full permission to call you in to put me in my proper place ( or hopefully any other poster that is picking on them ).
classic
twindouble
09-11-2005, 04:07 PM
Exactly how did you become the arbiter of what's right and wrong in chat room posting? Is this an elected, appointed, or self-appointed position? Simply place me on ignore if you can't control yourself from entering into discussions you aren't involved in for the express purpose of chastising me. I think the many fine posters in this room can take care of themselves. If they find themselves in over their heads at any time in the future I give them my full permission to call you in to put me in my proper place ( or hopefully any other poster that is picking on them ).
You can shake a bake anything you want and serve it up but I won't dine on it because you know exactly what I'm talking about. Classic indeed.
Good by and good luck to your new home!
KingChas
09-11-2005, 05:40 PM
You can shake a bake anything you want and serve it up but I won't dine on it because you know exactly what I'm talking about. Classic indeed.
Good by and good luck to your new home!
Twin hope this doesn't mean you left.Enjoy your posts.We are from the same time zone(thinking).I'm still pen and pencil with my figs.(human touch :D )30 years later.I have to use a dictionary with some of these posters and still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.Sometime when in a new place not good to re-live the past.If I could pull back a couple of my threads and past lifetime experiences I would.Carry On- Forget About It! :cool:
the little guy
09-11-2005, 05:56 PM
Oh Twin is just looking for a little attention. He " left " DRF many times before bringing his sanctimonious posts over here. He and I have a love/hate relationship, but I know he's a good guy ( unlike me ), and in spite of his poor choice of words sometimes ( as well as grammer ), he means well.
KingChas
09-11-2005, 06:02 PM
[the little guy] sanctimonious posts.
Dictionary again! :lol: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Rub it in TLG! :D
Making an anostentatious display=double look up :eek:
v_d_g
09-12-2005, 12:17 AM
Nice to see the boys of the forum 'scratching each others' eyes out'
I must say that the highlight of (the aftermath of ) that race was the distinctive LISP of Mr. Dutrow.
He really should do more interviews. He and Jan are a nice duo.
v_d_g
09-12-2005, 12:46 AM
"COMMENTATOR broke well and argued the pace while under attack from both sides, disposed of his assailants after three quarters but was in no shape to handle the winner and gave way in the final furlong."
Wow, if the chartman writes about it, it must've been serious.
PaceAdvantage
09-12-2005, 03:46 AM
I can't place the blame with Dutrow on this one. He took advantage of the system. It's the system that needs to be changed.
I think the stewards have to take a hard look at stuff like this BEFORE the races go to print. They know the Woodward is a big race. The racing office KNOWS how the race is going to be filled. They should have taken one look at the proposed entries of this race, seen how the horses were going to be coupled and called up to the stewards office.
The stewards should have called an audible here and required that ALL of Dutrows horses be coupled. I think stewards in NY have that kind of latitude, but please correct me if I am wrong....
And I know we would have been down to only TWO betting interests, but is there that big a difference between two and three? LOL
Again, I have no problem with rabbits, and I don't even have a problem with aggressive race riding (ie. trying to box another horse in). What I have a problem with is that two separate betting interests were ACTING AS ONE.
speculus
09-12-2005, 04:41 AM
Oh Twin is just looking for a little attention. He " left " DRF many times before bringing his sanctimonious posts over here. He and I have a love/hate relationship, but I know he's a good guy ( unlike me ), and in spite of his poor choice of words sometimes ( as well as grammer ), he means well.
Don't get caught on the wrong foot! At least, not when you are talking about TD's grammar! ;)
BTW, did you know that grammar is one of the three most misspelt words? The other two are Calendar and Vacuum.
the little guy
09-12-2005, 10:37 AM
My problem isn't ( at least in that case ) grammar....it's spelling.
toetoe
09-12-2005, 11:21 AM
Dutrow's LISP is a lucrative, little known angle: Last Inconclusive Sprint Prep.
As to Grammer vs. Spelling, both are problematic, Grammer for producing 'Girlfriends,' Spelling for 'Beverly Hills 90210,' et al.
"COMMENTATOR broke well and argued the pace while under attack from both sides, disposed of his assailants after three quarters but was in no shape to handle the winner and gave way in the final furlong."
Wow, if the chartman writes about it, it must've been serious.
I want to shake the hand of the guy that wrote the chart, since none of the NY writers seem to want to address what happened.
GeTydOn
09-12-2005, 01:37 PM
Exactly how did you become the arbiter of what's right and wrong in chat room posting? Is this an elected, appointed, or self-appointed position?
And you're in a position to call people out on being an "arbiter of what's right and wrong" here? But now I guess I'm guilty of that, too.
Back to the subject matter. There were loopholes that were taken advantage of. Plan and simple. Entry fees were paid, aggressive race tactics were employed and the rabbits collected nice checks for their workouts.
Yes, it sucks for the bettors who maybe innocently wagered on those two without "knowing" what the plan was despite all that was written and televised pre-race.
Maybe it's time for the rule to be reinstated that all runners entered by the same trainer by coupled? I hate that rule.
But I hate couplings anyway. I'm breaking down the race anyway, so let me decide how I want to handle same-owner and/or same trainer runners. But that's just me.
toetoe
09-12-2005, 03:55 PM
The only remarkable thing to me is that the owner(s) of the other two, the 'rabbits,' agreed to toil for the benefit of St. Liam.
I had hopes that Commentator could do better, bunnies or no bunnies. Maybe he just bounced? The chartcaller WAY editorialized, also.
Pace Cap'n
09-12-2005, 06:23 PM
Just how adverse to running in a G1 would anyone expect the average owner of the average steed to be?
Would not just an appearance in a black-type race not be a feather in the rabbits' cap on down the road?
I do whole-heartedly agree that for betting purposes they should have been coupled.
classhandicapper
09-12-2005, 07:19 PM
"Dutrow has entered not one, but two rabbits, because he feels Commentator stole the Whitney. You don't steal races with the kind of figure I had his pace for the race, and even the raw time will tell you Commentator was smoking up front. "
CJ,
I just came across this post.
Obviously the race result proved nothing because it's just as easy to argue that Commentator went off form as it is to argue that the rabbits did him in. There's no way to prove which conclusion is correct or even whether both were a factor.
I would like to discuss the Whitney itself and the pace figure/speed figure relationship.
I know there were a lot disagreements about the Whitney figure to begin with. Beyer (123 ) and TG (-6?) had it very fast. Logic Dictates had the pace and speed figure at 122-121. You had the pace faster, the speed slower, and a high overall performance figure. So everyone sort of agreed, but not exactly for the same reasons.
Personally, I didn't have much of clue as to who was right because there were only 2 routes that day and depending on your view of the variants for the pace and final time etc... I could see any of those views being right.
I had another view though.
I thought the track was speed favoring (so did Logic Dictates and Watchmaker) and that Commentator was untested as of yet by a real pace challenge. I could go through a long list of reasons why I believe that's the case, but it would be endless and we might not agree anyway. So let's set that aside and assume just for conversation's sake, I am right.
Under the assumption that your pace figure for the Whitney is correct, I discounted it anyway and thought Commentator was not nearly as good as he looked.
I find that horses that get loose on the lead aren't being used as hard as those that are engaged in battle even when the pace figures are the same (and fast). It might be helpful to know that the horse isn't loose in a slow pace, but I'm not sure it's correct to give them full credit for the pace figure. One might guess that not all 22s are the same. 22 ding donging with another horse might really be 11.1 / 10.4 and 22 loose might really be 11 / 11. Some horses may also just react negatively to the company and competition. This is the kind of qualitative thing I bring up from time to time that I believe helps me.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Second, I think that goes double if a track is speed favoring. I think the normal pace/speed relationships break down when the track is speed favoring (on the very rare closing track also). Now I know that bias is very subjective and controversial to begin with, but I blieve it does exit even if it's not a requirement of winning play. It's another qualitative thing that I believe helps me.
Do you have any thoughts on bias and pace/speed relationships?
Milleruszk
09-12-2005, 08:42 PM
[QUOTE=toetoe]The only remarkable thing to me is that the owner(s) of the other two, the 'rabbits,' agreed to toil for the benefit of St. Liam.
I saw Dutrow being interviewed on Saturday morning and he said that he was running Show Boot and Crafty Player to help out their owners. He pointed out that 4th place was worth $25,000 and 5th place $15,000. Guaranteed Money! You would have to ask Sanford Goldfarb how truthful Dutrow was being. After all Goldfarb had ownership interest in both horses.
Achilles
09-12-2005, 09:00 PM
Randy Giles, who I respect a lot, thinks St. Liam's Woodward win showed him to be a great race horse, unless I've failed English...........again. http://www.paceappraiser.com/blog/ He also had the pace of the race at Fast 4, although I don't know what scale he uses. It should be very interesting to compare his Woodward rating with CJ's.
The chart caller's comment above might be taken as just vivid language to describe a horse running between rivals................ by someone who did not see that backstretch run. Gary Stevens should have wacked those jerks across their butts a few times a la Arcaro in his prime; he was certainly close enough to do it. The whole episode was so flagrant, I just don't understand the lack of any public reaction on the part of the connections of Commentator. I did not bet the race, so sour grapes it's not. :eek:
rastajenk
09-13-2005, 03:22 AM
If I had Commentator, I'd run him in the Sprint. Seems like everyone is conceding it to Lost In the Fog; I'd make him earn it by running a classy middle-distance type at him. The Classic distance probably suits others better than him (Commentator).
the little guy
09-16-2005, 07:30 PM
I thought it was worth noting that DRF published CJ's letter ( along with another letter sharing his feelings ).
Funny, no defenders of Dutrow and his tactics shared the " Letters to the Editor " section.
2nd letter in.
http://www.drf.com/news/article/68648.html
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