quote from Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff

[highnote]

Chertoff echoed the White House line — saying the time to place blame will come later, but he also said federal officials had trouble getting information from local officials on what was going on. For instance, he said, they hadn't been told by Thursday of the violence and horrible conditions at the New Orleans convention center.

If Homeland Security was having trouble getting information from local officials then doesn't that send a signal that there is a problem that needs immediate attention?

What did people think was going to happen to 10 or 20 thousand people stuck in a building for two days without running water. Anyone ever been to a major league baseball game and used the toilet after the 7th inning? Imagine if there was no running water in the restrooms for all the fans.

Now, there is plenty of blame to go around, but it seems to me that Homeland Security has to be prepared for worse case scenarios. Curious, does anyone know if Homeland Security's mission is supposed to cover dealing with natural disasters?

[chickenhead]

FEMA is under HS, so I think the answer is yes.

[Tom]

Suppose it was not a hurrikcane, but terroritst who blew up the levy.....


LOTS of questions to be asked in the coming months.

[lsbets]

Chertoff doesn't have the balls for the job, that's obvious to me.

[highnote]

Suppose it was not a hurrikcane, but terroritst who blew up the levy.....


LOTS of questions to be asked in the coming months.


I was thinking about that, too. People knew it was not outside the range of possibility that the levy would fail. Why wasn't EVERYONE better prepared? It's a big country and the federal gov can't be everywhere and the job was too big for the locals, but still, it was a disaster waiting to happen and everyone knew it.

Let's face it, the BIG ONE could hit L.A. at any time. Are they prepared for all the chaos that will ensue? Or is FEMA just gonna let a dog eat dog strategy prevail?

What if a volcano blows in the Caribbean and a giant tsunami hits NYC? Again, it is not outside the range of possibilities. A 50 foot wave hit NJ earlier this century. Lucky it wasn't as built up as it is today.

Disaster will happen.

You can be certain most local services won't be prepared. But there is no excuse for the US gov't not to be better prepared then they were. Why wasn't N.O. treated like a terrorist attack?

If terrorists would have blown up that levee and flooded N.O. would the federal gov been quicker to respond?

What if terrorists take this opportunity to strike the U.S. now and another disaster on the scale of N.O happens. How would the gov deal with it?

After N.O. I have no faith that the U.S. gov can quickly mobilize a force to deal with a disaster on this scale. It's not that I blame them, but it requires such a massive mobilization it probably isn't possible.

My wife and I talked about what we'd do if we would have been stuck at the Superdome. We figured we'd just walk out of town and try to at least get away from the violence. We could find drinking water somewhere outside the city -- in the woods or mountains or a stream or something. We could always eat leaves or bugs or something. Then we found out the national guard wasn't letting people leave that part of the city.

Great. How would you like to be a prisoner there? No food. No water. No safety. No way out. If it didn't actually happen this week, I would have said it could never happen in the U.S.

[chickenhead]

I know that living roughly in the 3rd of the THREE MOST LIKELY DISASTERS spots...with the other two having come to pass...I have been doing plenty of thinking about preparedness. Not gonna become a survivalist mind you...but certainly a few more simple things to be done.

Reading in the paper today about California's own antiquated levee system..keeps Sacramento Valley nice a dry...after seeing NO, I'm sure it gave the bad guys a few new ideas. Might want to post a few more guards out thereabouts.

[boxcar]

You can be certain most local services won't be prepared. But there is no excuse for the US gov't not to be better prepared then they were. Why wasn't N.O. treated like a terrorist attack?

If terrorists would have blown up that levee and flooded N.O. would the federal gov been quicker to respond?

This issue has been addressed many times in many places on this forum, already.

The President of the U.S. does not have unlimited powers. In fact, his powers, especially, when it comes to the several sovereign states is quite restricted. The U.S. government cannot send troops into a state until such time the governor (CEO) of that state makes a formal request to the President, which is usually done in writing. This is what lving in a Democratic Republic under the "rule of law" (U.S. Constitution and Statutes) means.

If you click on the link below, you can learn more.

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/Primer_ChallengestoPreventionandPreparedness.htm

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Here's additional perspective dealing with who has primary responsibilities:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/4/151327.shtml

Boxcar

[highnote]

I know that living roughly in the 3rd of the THREE MOST LIKELY DISASTERS spots...with the other two having come to pass...I have been doing plenty of thinking about preparedness. Not gonna become a survivalist mind you...but certainly a few more simple things to be done.

Reading in the paper today about California's own antiquated levee system..keeps Sacramento Valley nice a dry...after seeing NO, I'm sure it gave the bad guys a few new ideas. Might want to post a few more guards out thereabouts.

I think Westchester County, NY has a couple of reservoirs which hold back water using levees or dams. I hope they're strong!

Didn't a levee break in Johnstown, PA a long time ago that killed a bunch of people? Wasn't there a lot of warnings about that one, too?

I guess it's less painful to find the money to build these big projects than it is spending the money to maintain them.

The lesson here is clear. You have to plan on worse case scenarios happening. The consequences of a disaster are too great to justify the risk.

That's why we buy auto insurance. We probably won't get in an accident where we are at fault, but if we do, we had better be covered. If you get sued, you could lose your house and be paying for the rest of your life. The risk is not justified.

It's just like betting a horse race. If you've got $1,000 to your name and you've got a wife, kids and a rent payment, you don't put it all on a horse you think can not possibly lose. Maybe you put a little more than normal -- if you even should be betting any of the money at all. But the consequences of losing are just too great.

In essence, N.O. was betting the levee would be fixed before it broke. They were wrong and they lost the bet. You do not gamble with people's lives. In fact, the gamble they took will have a ripple effect around the world.

The same concept applies to all walks of life. Chertoff is right that this is not the time for blame, but this is the time for all other municipalities to take a look at any systems that have the potential for disaster and minimize the risks. Doing nothing or waiting until next year is not the correct course of action.

[DJofSD]

According to the report on 60 Minutes tonight, there was not any levy's that failed, it was storm walls. These storm walls were designed to withstand a catagory 3 storm. Katarina was a catagory 4. The reason for the failures was the surge overflowed the walls then undermined the footing allowing the wall to fall.

Croft interviewed the guy that runs the department that manages the levy system for the US Army Corp of Engineers. To paraphrase him, they've needed 20 years to upgrade the storm wall. He also said that prior to the wall being built there was nothing.

DJofSD

[highnote]

According to the report on 60 Minutes tonight, there was not any levy's that failed, it was storm walls. These storm walls were designed to withstand a catagory 3 storm. Katarina was a catagory 4. The reason for the failures was the surge overflowed the walls then undermined the footing allowing the wall to fall.

Croft interviewed the guy that runs the department that manages the levy system for the US Army Corp of Engineers. To paraphrase him, they've needed 20 years to upgrade the storm wall. He also said that prior to the wall being built there was nothing.

DJofSD


I'm not trying to start an argument, but check out this headline on Yahoo from an AP story:

A Week After Storm, Levee Break Is Fixed

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane_katrina

If no one knows the difference between a storm wall and a levee, no wonder the preparedness was lacking.

[JustRalph]

does anybody at all wonder what the hell kind of reasoning came up with building this city inside the bowl surrounded by water???? If you have to count on these pumps.........you live there at your own risk

Remember, there is going to be another hurricane season next year....!

[boxcar]

does anybody at all wonder what the hell kind of reasoning came up with building this city inside the bowl surrounded by water???? If you have to count on these pumps.........you live there at your own risk

Remember, there is going to be another hurricane season next year....!

And here's another question -- one, incidentially, Bush Sr and Slick Willy didn't wish to answer today in Houston: What prompted the levee designers to limit the effectiveness of their system to only a Cat 3 storm? Both of these questions are fundamentally important and must answered by all the Players of the Blame Game.

Should the people stuck in NO accept any responsibility for their life choice to live inside that bowl and therefore, put themselves at risk? And should the designers of the levee system accept any personal or moral responsibility for designing a system that they knew beforehand had some pretty severe limitations?

And, btw, that Times Picayune rag wrote some years ago about those risks, putting them on public record. So, it's not as though the people didn't know.

Liberals, what sayest thou?

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

And here's another question -- one, incidentially, Bush Sr and Slick Willy didn't wish to answer today in Houston: What prompted the levee designers to limit the effectiveness of their system to only a Cat 3 storm? Both of these questions are fundamentally important and must answered by all the Players of the Blame Game.

Liberals, what sayest thou?

Boxcar

General Strock has already answered that, It was based on economics. in other words, that was what was originally appropriated to the Army Corps of Engineers.

I guess they rolled the dice thinking future generations would strengthen the levee.

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess they rolled the dice thinking future generations would strengthen the levee.

Isn't there some way we can spin this and pin the blame on GWB?

[Tom]

does anybody at all wonder what the hell kind of reasoning came up with building this city inside the bowl surrounded by water???? If you have to count on these pumps.........you live there at your own risk

Remember, there is going to be another hurricane season next year....!

Remember, THIS season is not over yet!

[boxcar]

General Strock has already answered that, It was based on economics. in other words, that was what was originally appropriated to the Army Corps of Engineers.

I guess they rolled the dice thinking future generations would strengthen the levee.

Ah...so they entered into a crap game with the Forces of Nature and she just crapped all over them, didn't she?

Okay...so since these designers put all these people's lives in jeopardy and untold billions in property damage resulted, are they morally culpable? Should any "blame" be assigned to them? Or should they get a free pass?

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

Ah...so they entered into a crap game with the Forces of Nature and she just crapped all over them, didn't she?

Okay...so since these designers put all these people's lives in jeopardy and untold billions in property damage resulted, are they morally culpable? Should any "blame" be assigned to them? Or should they get a free pass?

Boxcar


I think not. They designed and built what the funds would allow, and never hid that the levees were built to withstand a catgory 3 storm. Those who failed to fund sufficient funds to protect the city from the most powerful of hurricanes are responsible more than the designers.

[schweitz]

I think not. They designed and built what the funds would allow, and never hid that the levees were built to withstand a catgory 3 storm. Those who failed to fund sufficient funds to protect the city from the most powerful of hurricanes are responsible more than the designers.


And if you read my post in the Non-Political thread you will find out exactly who is to blame for funding. Hint---not who you want it to be.

[highnote]

does anybody at all wonder what the hell kind of reasoning came up with building this city inside the bowl surrounded by water????

I read somewhere else on this board that accessibility in 1719 (year ?) was the main reason. I'll have to look that up. It's a good question.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=JustRalph]does anybody at all wonder what the hell kind of reasoning came up with building this city inside the bowl surrounded by water???? /QUOTE]

Aquaman?