View Full Version : NYRA fires waiter for shaking down track restaurant patrons
the written word
08-25-2005, 06:47 PM
Undercover officers conducting a sting operation for NYRA asked for a table at the Saratoga racecourse restaurant and couldn't get one - that is until they coughed up a $200 "gratuity" to the waiter. Witnesses say maitre d' Manny Alvarez was later found to have nearly $8,000 on him - nice racket. The waiter has since been summarily fired.
Thus continues NYRA's ongoing PR campaign to clean up its blighted image. After years of absentee management and history of non-existant oversight that enabled a proctected haven for criminal employees to flourish for decades, now we hear they are finally cracking down, [with the help of federal oversight] coincidentally about the time their license is about to expire and be put up for competive bidding.
After all, there are potentially billions in new slot revenue that NYRA brass can now misappropropriate, mismanage and provide opportunities for lucrative side scams for their cronies.
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=392069&category=SPORTS&BCCode=&newsdate=8/25/2005&TextPage (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=392069&category=SPORTS&BCCode=&newsdate=8/25/2005&TextPage=1)
highnote
08-25-2005, 08:19 PM
It isn't right for a waiter to accept money in exchange for a table, but it is the oldest practice in the book.
I remember my first trip to Atlantic City we wanted a table for a show. My college roommate offered the maitre de $20 bucks and we got a front row table. It was a great show, too.
My roommate was from Central America. Maybe he was used to doing business this way. I was impressed.
Back about 1972, I remember when my grandfather, an old Indiana farmer, was about 70 years old and took my mother to Paris to see one of my older brothers who was studying there at the time. He was hassled at the security counter at JFK airport because he had a pocket knife on him. He said to the security guard, "I've been carrying this pocket knife everyday for 50 years and I'm not about to stop now." Then he slipped the security guy $5 bucks and boarded the plane.
I remember him telling the story and he always ended it with, "Money talks."
Funny how those little stories stick in your head.
JustRalph
08-25-2005, 08:40 PM
only way to get anything done sometimes..............
I always ask my friends how they get by without carrying cash? You can't bribe anybody with a debit card..........????
highnote
08-25-2005, 08:59 PM
I always ask my friends how they get by without carrying cash? You can't bribe anybody with a debit card..........????
I hear ya.
However...
I got my hair cut today and paid cash plus gave a tip. Then I saw a sign that said they can't put tips on credit cards. Next time I go there to get my hair cut, I'm NOT going to take cash and I will pay by credit card. When they look at me like "Where's my tip?". I'm going to say, "Sorry. I didn't bring cash." :D
mhrussell
08-25-2005, 09:01 PM
$$$$..the universal lubricant. Works anytime, anywhere.
Sad, but true.
TurfRuler
08-25-2005, 09:13 PM
To Insure Promptness
the written word
08-25-2005, 09:47 PM
There are tips and then there is legalized extortion. This guy had 8 G's on him.
You don't take down that kind of gelt without help. Certainly some midlevel overseers had to be looking the other way. The quid pro quo being most likely a healthy kickback in the proceeds.
There's more to this story then just one greedy waiter taking advantage.
TurfRuler
08-25-2005, 09:59 PM
There are tips and then there is legalized extortion. This guy had 8 G's on him.
You don't take down that kind of gelt without help. Certainly some midlevel overseers had to be looking the other way. The quid pro quo being most likely a healthy kickback in the proceeds.
There's more to this story then just one greedy waiter taking advantage.
...and you believe that Manny Alverez is a budding Little Ceasar?
highnote
08-25-2005, 10:12 PM
I know :D What waiter walks around with 8 grand in his pocket? :D
BetHorses!
08-25-2005, 11:31 PM
There goes my table
Steve 'StatMan'
08-25-2005, 11:56 PM
Perhaps it's just me being a Single horseplayer, but even with a date, I just imagine myself spending $200 on a whole meal (or in just 1-2 weeks for myself) let alone a 'bribe/tip' of $200 just for a seat in a restaurant. Folks who willingly spend that are in a whole 'nother league, and that's just fine with me. But I'm glad these people and NYRA took action to end this unfair and illegal practice.
Dave Schwartz
08-26-2005, 01:04 AM
When you ask why he had $8,000 on him, just remember that the restaurant is at a race track.
That is enough reaason for carrying money. Maybe he wagers a bit?
Dave
Steve 'StatMan'
08-26-2005, 01:08 AM
When you ask why he had $8,000 on him, just remember that the restaurant is at a race track.
That is enough reaason for carrying money. Maybe he wagers a bit?
Dave
Yeah! Maybe he was charging $50 until he started having a bad year at the windows! :D
Heck, he'll be lucky if he gets 1 cigarette from his fellow inmates for a table in the future! :lol:
KingChas
08-26-2005, 01:16 AM
I used to go to pro baseball games back in the 70's.I'm the first guy at the window attendance 18,000- no box seats left?$10-oh yea I have one cancellation seller says.LOL.$200 is kinda tough to resist.Not unusual for someone at Spa to have a lotta cash on them.What is the difference between this and paying $30 to private park in the slums at the Preakness?
Don't want to get political,but the guy was trying to make an honest buck without getting taxed up the ass.What does NYRA pay him $10 an hour?If a person is dumb enough to flip him $200 more power to him!Try reserving ahead of time. :D
PaceAdvantage
08-26-2005, 01:55 AM
Alvarez is among 750 Saratoga track workers from Centerplate, a catering company with the contract at many big New York venues, including the three NYRA facilities, Yankee Stadium and the state's ski slopes at Gore Mountain and near Lake Placid. His wife, Carzel, is the restaurant company's director of reservations at the track.
Read that again and again until the meaning sinks in....
Thumbs up to NYRA for their aggressive stance on any and all things unseemly. Life is hell these days for "evil doers" at NYRA.....LOL
KingChas
08-26-2005, 02:07 AM
Read that again and again until the meaning sinks in....
Thumbs up to NYRA for their aggressive stance on any and all things unseemly. Life is hell these days for "evil doers" at NYRA.....LOL
Oop's so much for reservations- :D
DrugSalvastore
08-26-2005, 02:10 AM
I guess it's about time they got rid of that guy---he's absolutley brutal.
My dad loves to sit in that little dining area, past the finish line, under the grandstand at Saratoga. That is Manny's land. I'm not someone who likes to sit and eat during the races---but everytime my dad goes with me, I would eat there. He's tipped Manny $50 to get a table in advance for big race days (Whitney day, and Sunday's when there is a popular giveaway mostly) after Manny had told him "Nothing's available right now." Magically, after the tip, a table for the big day becomes open within a half an hour.
I think it's crazy to waste that much money on a table---but some people badly want to have a table when they go to a track. My dad calls the guy Manny "the monster." He insisted that this guy had to be making a fortune, he's the only guy there, and everyone who gets a table has to see him. I always argued with my dad---telling him that "you are probably the only idiot who shells out that kind of money for a table--I don't think the guy makes all that much, but he probably would if he had more suckers like you."
I guess my dad isn't the only dumbass who will spend that kind of money for a stinking table. $8,000 in his pocket---and I can swear to you---I've NEVER seen this guy at the betting windows once! So, It's not like he hit a giant trifecta earlier in the day.
PaceAdvantage
08-26-2005, 02:24 AM
I guess my dad isn't the only dumbass who will spend that kind of money for a stinking table. $8,000 in his pocket---and I can swear to you---I've NEVER seen this guy at the betting windows once! So, It's not like he hit a giant trifecta earlier in the day.
You've confused me. Do you summer in Saratoga? From your past posts, I never got the impression that you were a regular at NYRA...enough to know the habits of Mr. Alvarez.
You people in this thread absolutely amaze me. Who ever heard of a Maitre D' who did NOT accept tips for better service? Give me a break.
Saratoga is the creme of the NY crop. Of course prices are going to go up for a table when there aren't any readily available (note, you did say your dad STILL had to wait a half an hour, even after tipping the guy....it's not like he had a bank of tables waiting for the good tippers, or else your dad wouldn't have had to wait).
We're not dealing with poor folks in Saratoga. A $200 tip for them might be the same as a $20 for you and me. I think Mr. Alvarez has become the unfortunate victim of the NYRA witch hunt. The ONLY entity this guy should have to answer to is the IRS.
BTW, how many tables does the restaurant have? $8000 in his pocket is a LOT of tips. Even if EVERYONE tipped $200 (and you know they didn't), that's 40 tables worth of tips. This is a BS story...
I wouldn't be surprised to see Mr. Alvarez turn around and sue NYRA and whoever else he can get his hands on....I'd bet he'd win his job back....
NoDayJob
08-26-2005, 02:39 AM
:lol: Manny wouldn't have been caught if he had spread a little more "grease" around. Money talks, 2211212198920 walks. :lol:
NDJ [AKA Troll #1]
DrugSalvastore
08-26-2005, 03:10 AM
You've confused me. Do you summer in Saratoga? From your past posts, I never got the impression that you were a regular at NYRA...enough to know the habits of Mr. Alvarez.
I don't "summer there." In 2003 I spent every day at the entire meet, with my dad, eating in that dining area. If you want a table in the dining area you have to see Manny "the monster." He's ALWAYS there---every day. I've been to Saratoga for at least one week at every meet going back to 1998---the guy is always there and he is the ONLY ONE you can talk with if you want a table.
I can't freaking believe you don't know which place I'm talking about---it's the only resteraunt I know of at the track. The other dining places are like buffet tents. The guy is a fixture there. He's a legend like shoeshine chico.
They have a HELL OF A LOT MORE than forty tabels by the way. Go and count them.
This guy is like the biggest legend at the whole freaking place! At least to my dad he is anyway---he always talks about him. It takes a $50 tip to get a table in advance for certain big days with him. My dad takes care of the tip and buys my food when I go with him---so it's not like I have to pay for that. If that is what your "creme of the creme" comment was about....no I'm not someone who would pay for a table. When I go without my dad, I pay to get into the clubhouse, and I mostly watch the races from the big-screen TV on the back wall of the clubhouse. The area that the jockey's enter after riding is the area I'm talking about. They have a binocular stand where you can buy the Ragozin sheets---or pick up a copy of the Indian Charlie or the Overnight entries---from the binocular stand down---there is a massive dining area. EVERY single person who sits in that dining area has to see Manny.
Manny is always there in that same suit. The place will not be the same without hm.
Macdiarmadillo
08-26-2005, 03:30 AM
Don't forget NYRA is a quasi-governmental corporation. Do you think it's okay to go to a state office and have to bribe the clerk to get an appointment to apply for a permit? That's what I see. A shakedown is a shakedown is a shakedown.
They should hang Manny from the flagpole. He may prefer that to talking with the IRS.
DrugSalvastore
08-26-2005, 04:21 AM
They should hang Manny from the flagpole. He may prefer that to talking with the IRS.
Yea, if you think about it, he might not report nearly as much as he gets in tips to the IRS. My dad goes on and on about how great his job is---and how he thinks he makes a killing there for six weeks. Let's just say you are a party of two, and you want a smaller table there for the entire meet.
I'll ask my dad when I talk with him tomorrow, but let's just say it's $50 to get a table on Saturday and Sunday. $20 to get a table on opening day, and on friday. And a $10 tip for a table on Monday, Wed, and Thursday.
You would be paying $150 a week in tips straight into the pocket of Manny "the monster." For the meet, you would have given him $900 in tips. That's not a conservative estimate---but it's close to accurate. He always got at least $10 even on day's when you really didn't need to tip the guy a dime.
I can just imagine what he would want if you wanted a nice big table for 8 in a choice spot for the entire meet. In 2003, we rarely got the same table back-to-back--and sometimes we would get a bad one, like under the steps, or with the small tables outside, in an area that doesn't shade you from the sun. So it's not like he was putting us in real good spots all the time.
I'm the opposite of my dad---I'm super super cheap. When I go out, if I really like the food and service, I'll tip $2. If I don't like the food but the person serving the food seems okay, I'll tip $1. If I don't like the food or service I won't tip anything. It doesn't sound cool that way, but if you think about the money you save over the longhaul, who really cares?
andicap
08-26-2005, 08:54 AM
A charactor -- yeah,. that's what they said about Bonnie Clyde in the 30s.
I don't bleepin believe you guys. We'll all sitting around the table last night wondering how the hell this guy can get away this extortion for so long.
I was told (won't say by who, but a legit PA person) that Manny's been doing this for years and EVERYONE knew about it. And it is extortion. You couldn't get a table without paying him a lot of money. Yes, you go into a fancy restaurant and give the maitre d $20 for a decent table. But take it from me -- I live in New York -- used to live in the city. You could get into the swankiest places in the city -- with a reservation far enough in advance -- without a bribe.
And no I'm not naive. You could walk into Lutece the night you want to go and bribe th maitre d' to give you a table. But there is a HUGE difference between that and Alverez REFUSING to give you a table UNLESS you bribed him, up to $200.
The big question from us at the Spa last night was how the hell NYRA could look the other way for so long. They HAD to knoiw it was going on.
We were also laughing at how PA would apologize for NYRA here -- and we predicted the correct rationalization! Thumbs up for NYRA -- they caught the crook! Never mind how long it's been going on and how they must have looked the other way because the system was probably just fine for the rich and elite people for whom $200 is like a $1 tip at Carvel's for most of us.
Cant believe most of you people defending someone who was basically kieeping out regular folks like you and me while NYRA looked the other way to keep the Spa dining room "PURE" of trash like me who couldn't afford the $200 to bribe the bastard.
Yes I know the rich, elite run this country (and most others, I'm not naive or anti-American), but that doesn't mean that a) it is right and b) us regular people can't stand up for the little guy who can scrape together $200 to eat a nice meal with his wife at the Spa and then can't afford it because he needs another $200 to bribe Manny.
Besides if he hadn't been so f-ing greedy he could gotten away with $20. But Manny's been doing this for so long he's got plenty sacked away and I'm sure he's not crying too much today.
And what about the moralists oin this board? The ones who love Pat Robertson. Isn't "Thy Shall Not Steal" (which is really what extortion is) in the 10 Commandments anymore?
The Hawk
08-26-2005, 09:00 AM
You people in this thread absolutely amaze me. Who ever heard of a Maitre D' who did NOT accept tips for better service? Give me a break.
Saratoga is the creme of the NY crop. Of course prices are going to go up for a table when there aren't any readily available (note, you did say your dad STILL had to wait a half an hour, even after tipping the guy....it's not like he had a bank of tables waiting for the good tippers, or else your dad wouldn't have had to wait).
PA, in your never-ending quest to support NYRA, in every possible instance, you're defending the indefensible here. You're defending a guy who was shaking down people who wanted to go to the racetrack and have something to eat.
Who ever heard of a Maitre D' who did NOT accept tips for better service? How about at Gulfstream Park, creme of the Florida crop? In successive years I sat in the old downstairs dining room and the rooftop restaurant on big-day Saturdays, the Fountain of Youth, reservations made the Wednesday before. I didn't have to grease anyone. You might say it's the difference between NY and Florida. I'd say it's the difference between NYRA and Magna.
BetHorses!
08-26-2005, 10:02 AM
Imagine how much more money per table he would have gotten if the food was good.
toetoe
08-26-2005, 12:15 PM
Chazz,
An honest buck? You're micturating on my spine and telling me it's raining. I'm not even sure these caterers and concessionaires are making an 'honest' buck. Y'know, in South America they have little mom-n-pop bars and restaurants right under the grandstand. Real food, plenty of drink. I imagine it goes out to bid. But so much pork is layered into these catering contracts, it's no wonder a pint of tiger piss is $8, or whatever it is.
KingChas
08-26-2005, 12:24 PM
Chazz,
An honest buck? You're micturating on my spine and telling me it's raining. .
ToeToe, My reply was tongue- in- cheek.He should have been canned years ago.I myself do not dine at the racetrack and never will.I can't concentrate on capping with a full belly-lol.Dining for me is off-track only.
toetoe
08-26-2005, 01:01 PM
Sorry. I'm too literal, not to say litereate.
I wonder whether the tables would be spread among several waiters, maybe even some good ones, if the guy's wife were not the catering queen. Conflict of interest, hello!
delayjf
08-26-2005, 02:09 PM
I thought this kind of thing only happened in New Orleans :D :D
If there is such a demand for tables, I'm surprized the track doesn't charge 200.00 a pop. Other than the ones who've had to pay, the track should be angry as hell at all that lost revenue. :mad:
toetoe
08-26-2005, 02:32 PM
Druggzy,
I'm like you, cheap. However, I'm a good tipper, even for average service. The shakedown is a whole other animal.
PA, I didn't construe the Manny-bashing as NYRA-bashing. Whatever day-to-day problems they have are probably about as bad as anywhere else. I don't have to suffer the on-track stuff. If you want agony, try the simulcast at Golden Gate Fields. Since Ronnie Bo died, Light and Little Zach are the only people I can stand to be around, down there. That's IF they'll have me.
PaceAdvantage
08-26-2005, 06:01 PM
I wasn't defending NYRA. Hell, I said Manny should sue NYRA...how is that defending them?
But anyway, I suppose I didn't realize the magnitude of the situation, having NEVER eaten at this particular restaurant at Saratoga. I only know Manny from Belmont and Aqueduct...I guess he acts normally at these restaurants.
So, my humblest apologies to all. I hope you all have it in your hearts to forgive my transgression.
One last question -- technically, is Manny a NYRA employee, or is he an employee of CENTERPLATE?
Hello all:
Man you people kill me! So be deal the guy made a few dollars on people that are willing to bounce for it. Nobody twisted their arms to go into their pockets. If the shoe was on the other foot and the opportunity arose to make some extra money cutting a few corners, I'm sure none of you would take a pass especially given the fact that all of you are gamblers. This guy Manny had the edge. Bravo for him.
Joe
toetoe
08-26-2005, 09:20 PM
It would be just my luck to give tables first-come-first-served, and have a friend of mgmt. complain and get me fired. I can't believe every waiter in the world operates that way. Sad situation regardless. I'm wondering what was the last straw, as it seems the whole world knew about it.
Zman179
08-26-2005, 10:09 PM
Hello all:
Man you people kill me! So be deal the guy made a few dollars on people that are willing to bounce for it. Nobody twisted their arms to go into their pockets. If the shoe was on the other foot and the opportunity arose to make some extra money cutting a few corners, I'm sure none of you would take a pass especially given the fact that all of you are gamblers. This guy Manny had the edge. Bravo for him.
Joe
That's not the point. If you went to Saratoga on a Saturday or a Sunday and you DIDN'T give Manny a tip, you weren't getting a table, pure and simple. That's indefensible.
But one good thing comes out of this: the greedy Manny, a NYRA employee for 49 years, as a result of being fired loses his pension. Good for him! Hope that he saved up those tips.
One last question -- technically, is Manny a NYRA employee, or is he an employee of CENTERPLATE?
Pretty lame, you hire a contractor, you oversee the contractor. It falls on NYRA. Probably overblown, but still, its a bad situation.
toetoe
08-26-2005, 11:06 PM
I'd hate to see ANYBODY lose his pension. Think about it. Where does it go?
The Hawk
08-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Don't worry, there probably WAS no pension for Manny...NYRA likely pilfered it months ago, if you believe the scandal previous to this one. ;)
rokitman
08-26-2005, 11:28 PM
I paid $5.75 a can for Coors Lite at Saratoga a few weeks ago. COORS. FOCKIN. LIGHT. Manny's just a symptom of a much broader disease at Saratoga.It's almost laughable to make him the focal point. The beers were had at the Carousel restaurant on the second floor of the clubhouse- where they don't bother to answer the phone that is listed on the website. I got through on a different number and was told it was booked (for Whitney day). I get there and find the place is crawling with empty tables. Surprise. But I have a little surprise for them. Someone from NYRA, who called me at home following an email I sent regarding the matter, has given me the managers name and instructed me to inform the manager that Miss NYRA has sent me to her. A nervous face leads me right to one of the tables I was hoping to get(not only was it not even close to full but most of the best tables were empty).
Not long ago I was insane for Saratoga. Couldn't wait for it to get here. I'm about done with it now. Noticed that the crowd seemed very thin compared to past Whitneys (I've been there every year for the last ten or so). Price-gouging, corruption/larceny and 6 horse grass races. I've got access to some of the top people in NY racing. I could rattle the cage if I chose to. But, frankly, I do not give a shit any more.
Should have went on the backstretch, a Coors Light is only a $1.75 there :D
Actually it isn't the difference between Magna and Nyra. It is the difference between a track that can only draw for concerts that feature bands where half the members are deceased and a track that draws for live racing.
Storm Cadet
08-26-2005, 11:56 PM
With all the loot he made through his years playing Jessie James of the Saratoga dining rooms, Manny can purchase the NYRA franchise when it's available !! :eek:
rokitman
08-27-2005, 12:14 AM
Should have went on the backstretch, a Coors Light is only a $1.75 there :D
I think I better stay outta there. Me and the people I was with were invited to get up close and personal with Scott Lake's horses. They are across the street from the main gate. We were like catnip to those horses. It was quite the bizarre scene. One started doing this wacky dance as if he was in a Broadway show. One tried to take a flying leap out of his stall. Another started doing a demented Mr. Ed impression. Another is biting my girlfriend with a look of glee in his eyes. All at the same time. It was the most fun we had all day. Well, except for Sally. Then when we were leaving they are all looking out the little windows on the back of their stalls, which look out on the parking lot we were in, like, Where ya goin' guys, we weren't done yet! We were giddy about it the whole ride home. Especially, the dancing horse. He looked like he was a trained dancing horse who knew just what he was doing. I can't even explain the dance. It was very impressive.
Figman
08-27-2005, 12:15 AM
Rokit,
You must have had multiple Coors. There weren't ANY six-horse grass races on Whitney Day or the days before or after Whitney Day. For the Fri-Sat & Sun three day period there were 11 grass races and nine of them had eight or more betting interests and six of those had ten or more horses.
There are tips and then there is legalized extortion. This guy had 8 G's on him.
I gave him the double. :rolleyes:
"Manny is always there in that same suit. The place will not be the same without hm."
Wow! I'd give him $200 to change his clothers once in a while! :bang:
DrugSalvastore
08-27-2005, 02:56 AM
having NEVER eaten at this particular restaurant at Saratoga.
Am I wrong---or is that the only restaurant at Saratoga?
I know they have tabels next to it where you can buy drinks, but not get any food---I also know they have buffet tents throughout the place, and a bar. In all my years at Saratoga, that is the only restaurant I've ever seen. Unless they have one upstairs, hidden in the back...I pretty much think that is it.
I personally think the sausage and peppers with a soda is as good as any of the fancy stuff in the restaurant.
cosmicway
08-27-2005, 08:29 AM
My waiter picks up the spaghetti dish before I 'm finished with it.
What should I do ?
Seriously though, the people who order expensive meals in racecourses are in my opinion suffering from a mild psychological syndrome which I call "loseritis jerkfishialis miserabilis".
What they, subconsciously, want is to let the races go by without getting involved bettingwise, following many recent burns.
I hasten to add that those folks who have n't had time to take lunch before leaving home are excepted from this rule.
There is only one restaurant at Saratoga and it serves Chowder! :kiss:
The Hawk
08-27-2005, 01:02 PM
Actually it isn't the difference between Magna and Nyra. It is the difference between a track that can only draw for concerts that feature bands where half the members are deceased and a track that draws for live racing.
Draws for live racing? Yeah, I guess that was the lure of that scintillating racing a few weeks back, when they had "70,000". Oh, they also had a stadium blanket giveaway? Apparently, some people need to have five or six of those on hand.
Nothing wrong with promotions, Drew, whatever gets people interested in racing is fine with me.
Figman
08-27-2005, 09:20 PM
Could the following be related to taking the money out of Manny's pockets and putting it into circulation in the pari-mutuel system?
Travers Wagering Stats
OnTrack
2005 - $8,573,082
2004 - $7,391,420
InState
2005 - $7,536,665
2004 - $7,027,672
OutOfState
2005 - $18,930,462 (hard to believe higher in 2005 with 10 sites cut off!)
2004 - $18,653,928
Total
2005 - $35,040,209
2004 - $33,073,020
DrugSalvastore
08-28-2005, 02:14 AM
There is only one restaurant at Saratoga and it serves Chowder! :kiss:
Yea, that sick disgusting Manhatten clam chowder---I HATE the Manhatten chowder---New England clam chowder is awesome though!!
How can anyone possibly like Manhatten chowder more than New England??
I was heartbroken when they came back with that red chowder...saddest moment I've ever had at Toga. There is only one legit chowder, and it's the New England kind!
cnollfan
08-28-2005, 02:29 AM
I like Manhattan.
cosmicway
08-28-2005, 07:22 AM
Here is a Greek recipe:
http://fooddownunder.com/cgi-bin/recipe.cgi?r=1499
Is it good ?
Never tried it before.
only way to get anything done sometimes..............
I always ask my friends how they get by without carrying cash? You can't bribe anybody with a debit card..........????
funny.
How can anyone possibly like Manhatten chowder more than New England??
It's all a matter of class! ;)
I could never eat a chowder that looked like a bowl of cereal! :eek:
Draws for live racing? Yeah, I guess that was the lure of that scintillating racing a few weeks back, when they had "70,000". Oh, they also had a stadium blanket giveaway? Apparently, some people need to have five or six of those on hand.
Nothing wrong with promotions, Drew, whatever gets people interested in racing is fine with me.
I'm not refering to the 70,000 the other day. When I say draw I'm refering to the more legitmate numbers such 15-25k on weekdays and more on weekends.
There is nothing wrong with promotions. When a promotion helps to ruin the quality of racing in a place and leads a company to believe they don't need racing fans anymore and the box office receipts tell a different tale then there is something wrong.
To Insure Promptness
to insure proper service.
tea eye pee. SSSS.
thats why it is tips with an s.
I'm not refering to the 70,000 the other day. When I say draw I'm refering to the more legitmate numbers such 15-25k on weekdays and more on weekends.
There is nothing wrong with promotions. When a promotion helps to ruin the quality of racing in a place and leads a company to believe they don't need racing fans anymore and the box office receipts tell a different tale then there is something wrong.
they heard that. supposedly next year they will have seperate gates for people that get cold at night and people that bet races
The Hawk
08-29-2005, 10:44 AM
I'm not refering to the 70,000 the other day. When I say draw I'm refering to the more legitmate numbers such 15-25k on weekdays and more on weekends.
There is nothing wrong with promotions. When a promotion helps to ruin the quality of racing in a place and leads a company to believe they don't need racing fans anymore and the box office receipts tell a different tale then there is something wrong.
Attendance doesn't mean much anymore, obviously, since most of the money is bet off-site. Saratoga draws 15-25K on weedays, and that's fine for 6 weeks, but what about Aqueduct and Belmont, when they might draw 5,000 on a given weekday? It used to be a lot more at all three tracks, just like every major track across the country, but there's more money bet than ever, in NY and elsewhere. Handle drives the game, not turnstile spinners.
How exactly do the promotions at Gulfstream help ruin the quality of racing? Officials there know the people who came in for the concerts don't bet. They were trying to get people in the door. Those promotions at least get people into the place that would never come otherwise. Personally, I hated the concerts, but at least there were a few hundred people, maybe a thousand, at least, that came to the racetrack that otherwise never would have. What percentage come back again, and bet? Who knows? But give GP credit for trying to build their fan base, instead of just giving their regulars a boxload of bobbleheads, blankets and beer steins.
What does your last sentence ("leads a company to believe they don't need racing fans anymore and the box office receipts tell a different tale then there is something wrong") mean?
CryingForTheHorses
08-29-2005, 01:04 PM
I guess it's about time they got rid of that guy---he's absolutley brutal.
My dad loves to sit in that little dining area, past the finish line, under the grandstand at Saratoga. That is Manny's land. I'm not someone who likes to sit and eat during the races---but everytime my dad goes with me, I would eat there. He's tipped Manny $50 to get a table in advance for big race days (Whitney day, and Sunday's when there is a popular giveaway mostly) after Manny had told him "Nothing's available right now." Magically, after the tip, a table for the big day becomes open within a half an hour.
I think it's crazy to waste that much money on a table---but some people badly want to have a table when they go to a track. My dad calls the guy Manny "the monster." He insisted that this guy had to be making a fortune, he's the only guy there, and everyone who gets a table has to see him. I always argued with my dad---telling him that "you are probably the only idiot who shells out that kind of money for a table--I don't think the guy makes all that much, but he probably would if he had more suckers like you."
I guess my dad isn't the only dumbass who will spend that kind of money for a stinking table. $8,000 in his pocket---and I can swear to you---I've NEVER seen this guy at the betting windows once! So, It's not like he hit a giant trifecta earlier in the day.
What this guy Manny does is pure extortion plain and simple,He is also keeping people out that he doesnt want!!...He is a slime who lives off the avails of other people,SUE?? What for?..This world we love in is made up of money-hungry slimeballs who will stop at nothing at making a buck.Also people like this scare people away as they dont want to pay high prices for thier seating.The game needs bettors..Not some slimeball charging you big bucks just to sit!
TurfRuler
08-29-2005, 08:37 PM
to insure proper service.
tea eye pee. SSSS.
thats why it is tips with an s.
The waiter says, "I made $50 bucks in tips tonight."
The patron says, "I ain't leaving no tip for that slow waiter, who spilled the water on me."
What this guy Manny does is pure extortion plain and simple,He is also keeping people out that he doesnt want!!...He is a slime who lives off the avails of other people,SUE?? What for?..This world we love in is made up of money-hungry slimeballs who will stop at nothing at making a buck.Also people like this scare people away as they dont want to pay high prices for thier seating.The game needs bettors..Not some slimeball charging you big bucks just to sit!
Very well put. NYRA did right to "take out that trash."
Manny is a leech and bottom feeder and when crap like him go down, it is good for everyone.
PaceAdvantage
08-30-2005, 09:08 AM
When he's gettin guys to tip him $200, I wouldn't exactly call that "bottom feeding" LOL
garyoz
08-30-2005, 09:47 AM
Now the only people getting tables will be the politically and socially connected. The ability to "tip" had a democratizing component, even at a few hundred bucks. No one is putting a gun to the head of those who pay the "tip" (as I did myself on at least one occasion). Now that option is removed. Like most other things in upstate New York, the heavy hand of government will thwart the entrepeneur and the marketplace and reward the connected.
ldiatone
08-30-2005, 10:35 AM
hello
just looking at the recipe it will be "flat" with only 2 tsp of salt. i would take the shells of all the fish the day before and simmer them in double the amount of water called for 4-5 hrs. then make the soup using the stock.
didn't see potatoes in the soup. manhattan clam chowder is good if its made more of a thin stew that as a soup. needs a lot of "guts" as the say.
john
ps "there are no short cuts in cooking" F Point
highnote
08-30-2005, 03:16 PM
So we sat in the Carousel Restaurant on Travers Day. As the maitre de showed us to our table, I reached in my pocket and pulled out a few dollars for a tip. I asked him if he was allowed to take tips. He said, in an obvious reference to the infamous Manny, "Yes. We just can't sell you the table." :D
delayjf
08-30-2005, 04:14 PM
Now the only people getting tables will be the politically and socially connected. The ability to "tip" had a democratizing component, even at a few hundred bucks.
How about the 2 dollar bettor who could not afford the 200 dollar "tip". Now he has a chance to get one. You want a table, make a reservation. I don't see how that would discriminate against average joe, unless the reservationist is doing the samething Manny did.
ldiatone
08-30-2005, 04:46 PM
Im in the bussiness, the guy sold the tables. same thing if the chef in the back sells a few psmo's to any one or does his side catering job out the back door, or if the bar keep brings his own bottles in and pockets the sales.
john
"cusisine starts in the morning" F Point
rokitman
08-30-2005, 05:17 PM
Bingo, Delay. Just answer the gadamn phone and take a reservation. There's nothing more democratic than that. They can keep a few tables set aside for last-minute requests from their best customers or "VIP's" and extort the rich for those tables if they are still available after a certain time just like any busy restaurant maitre'd does. What they are doing there is something else altogether.
Did the teller that tried to rob my novice sister do so because she didn't receive a proper tip when my sister made a bet? Unfortunately for the teller, my sister is not as dumb as she looks.
I'm glad I have taken so many first-timers to Saratoga only because now I can NOT from now on.
garyoz
08-30-2005, 09:53 PM
How about the 2 dollar bettor who could not afford the 200 dollar "tip". Now he has a chance to get one. You want a table, make a reservation.
Let's see how successful you are in getting a table on a weekend next season by picking up the phone and dialing. Ever try to get into a popular New York City restaurant? Demand will be about the same on weekends.
When he's gettin guys to tip him $200, I wouldn't exactly call that "bottom feeding" LOL
"Top Feeder" just lacked panache.:kiss:
Attendance doesn't mean much anymore, obviously, since most of the money is bet off-site. Saratoga draws 15-25K on weedays, and that's fine for 6 weeks, but what about Aqueduct and Belmont, when they might draw 5,000 on a given weekday? It used to be a lot more at all three tracks, just like every major track across the country, but there's more money bet than ever, in NY and elsewhere. Handle drives the game, not turnstile spinners.
I agree 100%. Maybe I didn't make myself clear, What I meant about Saratoga is that it is one of the few exceptions to the rule that they have a good attendence and handle (Although the recent handle may be off due to rebate shops being cut off).
How exactly do the promotions at Gulfstream help ruin the quality of racing? Officials there know the people who came in for the concerts don't bet. They were trying to get people in the door. Those promotions at least get people into the place that would never come otherwise.
What I was refering to was that since Magna took over the concerts. The concerts seemed to get more attention and money put into it while racing did not. In the past few years there have been more maiden claimers and beaten claimers than there were in the 90's. The stakes schedule has not been as strong as it once was in terms of quality of horses.
The concerts in theory were not a bad idea. The way it was advertised (As documented by Andy Beyer) with Styx for example in letters the size of the Hollywood sign, with the Florida Derby in letters the size usually reserved for 18 and older to call was an example in my opinion of how they felt about racing compared to the 2 surving members of America. I feel they should have kept the racing at a high enough level to keep both the horseplayer happy and keep the casual fan. If someone was trying to make you a football fan would you rather see the NFL or the XFL.
Personally, I hated the concerts, but at least there were a few hundred people, maybe a thousand, at least, that came to the racetrack that otherwise never would have. What percentage come back again, and bet? Who knows? But give GP credit for trying to build their fan base, instead of just giving their regulars a boxload of bobbleheads, blankets and beer steins.
I give them credit for that as well but I feel they should have kept the everyday player happy. Believe me, I'm not saying boxes of gimmicks are the answer.
What does your last sentence ("leads a company to believe they don't need racing fans anymore and the box office receipts tell a different tale then there is something wrong") mean?
The concerts and the way horseplayers were treated by them, drove people away. Horseplayers were charged for frequent player cards at GP. Self Service betting machines were not replaced when broken. Horseplayers had to stand in lines to get in because a someone would be arguing with the person at the admissions booth ("I don't have to pay $5, I'm not here for racing, I'm here for the concert). They raised the prices of concessions to take advantage of the concert people while screwing the horseplayer. After being told I had to pay $5 or $10 (I can't remember which) for a frequent player card that caught in their machines that were always screwed up, I was told by someone that I was a horseplayer and they didn't care if I stopped coming. Before the concerts they would announce on the concert stage they were giving away money and prizes for those people. Yet I come six days a week for live racing and get treated like rubbish.
At the time with these great attendence figures they had they were sending away horseplayers. However now knowing of the huge losses and debts Magna has run up, it shows they were not in a position to pass on any business. See: Lower handle, lower attendence (I'm not counting last year, but one could argue that those small crowds almost equal to Calder were the true horseplayers in South Florida)
Do not take this as a bitter rant by someone treated badly by a racetrack. All I know is I am not the only one who stopped going to GP between 02-04 because of the way they treated the concert goer compared to the racetracker. Business may rebound however they still have to compete with the Indian Casino's which will have the same slots as gulfstream, a hipness factor, and better entertainment than GP which will bring in the same half the band is dead groups. The new facility may garner some new business but how long will that last.
All I know is tracks like Keeneland or Del Mar(Which has concerts BUT after the races and do not dump the quality of their product for them) can thrive without forgeting what it says on the marquee (RACING).
This is the last I have to say on this subject. I have said enough. I'm sorry if this is long, Hawk, I just wanted to fully explain myself so you understood my position.
I respect your opinion but I just wanted to clear my concience on the subject.
Drew
delayjf
08-31-2005, 01:19 PM
Let's see how successful you are in getting a table on a weekend next season by picking up the phone and dialing. Ever try to get into a popular New York City restaurant? Demand will be about the same on weekends.
For those who can't afford the shakedown, at least they have a chance. You may have to call in early but if that's the demand then that's the demand. So Manny and (I assume) his wife were denying call in customers a reservation so he would have tables to sell. I'm sorry but I don't see the logic of excusing this shakedown simply becasue you can afford it.
PaceAdvantage
08-31-2005, 01:36 PM
So Manny and (I assume) his wife were denying call in customers a reservation so he would have tables to sell. I'm sorry but I don't see the logic of excusing this shakedown simply becasue you can afford it.
If this is in fact what happened, then I'm in 100% agreement with you.
garyoz
08-31-2005, 01:40 PM
I still see it like using a ticket scalper. It is really tough to get clubhouse seats, let alone a table if you are going through official channels. Tables will just go to regulars and VIP's.
But, really, who cares? When I'm at Saratoga I do all my betting through my phone accounts anyway because the lines are so long. Might as well be at home and bet them from there.
I still see it like using a ticket scalper. It is really tough to get clubhouse seats, let alone a table if you are going through official channels. Tables will just go to regulars and VIP's.
But, really, who cares? When I'm at Saratoga I do all my betting through my phone accounts anyway because the lines are so long. Might as well be at home and bet them from there.
The lines are not long. You must be picking the wrong lines.
richrosa
08-31-2005, 04:10 PM
Anyone who has ever showed up at the Porch has seen the same treatment. Its well known by the Saratoga regulars that Manny needs to be tipped ($50 on a regular day, $100+ or more on special days), or you are eating Sausage and Peppers in the yard with the common-folk.
I've tried reservations in the past, and like others on the board, you know that Manny's wife is telling you that no tables are available 100% of the time. I've seen the reservations notebook and corresponding card system that they use. There's no way they are holding reservations for even 25% of the tables on that thing.
I was on track Wed. August 3rd (Steeplechase Day, small crowd and handle). The cost of of the table from Manny was $50, plus a $5 tip to the nice lady who took us there. When others came and we needed a bigger, better table, Manny was happy to help us for another $100.
All of you doubters here that can't believe Manny isn't taking $8,000 a day clearly have never been to the Porch at 11:30 when Manny makes probably $5,000 in the first half hour the Porch is open on a slow day.
Manny and the people that work at Saratoga work hard, and deserve to be tipped. If there is to be SELLING of tables, its NYRA or their contractors (Centerplate's) job to do that, not Manny and the others that he's rumoured to be splitting the money with. Manny has multiple family members working at the track, as many of the top waiters do. Patronage is alive and well there.
If NYRA was to charge a fee for those tables, say $25 in addition to the seating charge they already assess, then maybe we can get a lower takeout!!
BTW, those of you who go to Belmont know that you see Manny there in the Dining Room, and you can get a table for FREE on a regular day, or a really good table with a $5 tip. Manny takes advantage of the hype of Saratoga.
Lastly, the food at the Porch, catered by Centerplate, is JUST PLAIN AWFUL. We go and get the Sausage and Peppers nearly every time. But then again, you're not sitting there for the lousy wilted salad, or the equally brutal Ruben sandwich.
The best deal on track is getting a table in the tent on the first turn where they have a much better buffet for $65 a person. Its hot in there, but the food is much better.
Of course, the best food is when I bring Sandwiches made from Price Cutters in town, sit in the backyard on a picnic table with my wife and kids.
karlskorner
08-31-2005, 04:54 PM
Well all I can say is NYRA is doing a hell of a job of cleaning up their act, first a couple of Mutual Clerks, now poor Manny, who is next ? Grooms, Hot Wallers, how about the Hot Dog Lady ( mustard is extra ) NYRA has a great publicity dept. when they can get milage on a Head Waiter, keeps the public away from their real problems.
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