Cindy Sheehan

[Bobby]

Gotta have a lot of respect for her to go down to CRAWFORD, TX and hold a vigil remembering her son and the 2,000 other Americans that have been killed. This thing appears to be gaining momentum just as the opinion polls are confirming her actions: Americans are uniting around her beliefs. Yes, we support the troops but what are our goals? Do we have any legitimate goals?

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/23/D8C5KTL80.html

[46zilzal]

And they said it was NOT like Vietnam all over again....Grass roots support got that war stopped and it may just work again.

[lsbets]

Americans are uniting around her beliefs. [/url]

And just what are her beliefs?

Do you unite with her when she says the US is the biggest terrorist nation in the world?

Do you unite with her when she stands next to a woman convicted of aiding terroists and says she supports her?

[Bobby]

And just what are her beliefs?


She's another one that's a member of the SILENT MAJORITY.

[Steve 'StatMan']

She's another one that's a member of the SILENT MAJORITY.

Let's both hope you're not right about that Bobby, because that means Bin Laden won. Bin Laden said Americans have no stomach for the sacrifices it will take, and will give up. She and her ilk doesn't want our troops anywhere. And there is a lot of work to be done, in a lot of places, not just in Iraq.

[JustRalph]

She is another one who is being funded by the Left........and she dishonors her son more everyday. It is not gaining ground..........it is being fed by the left wing groups.......that is all. She is being used.................as usual

[lsbets]

She's another one that's a member of the SILENT MAJORITY.


You really have no idea what she stands for do you? Or do you thnk the "silent majority" in this country thinks the US is the largest terrorist nation in the world and supports people who pass messages for terrorists from their jail cells? Those are her words and deeds Bobby. You call that the "silent majority". I don't think so.

[46zilzal]

everything that is NOT on the conservative agenda, even though it might be SPOTANEOUSand VERY PERSONAL.....just HAS To be left wing...


Atherosclerosis of the cereberal vessels at work

[Bobby]

No she's a woman who's taking a stand against the MOST powerful man in the world: GWBush. That's admirable. That stuff about the US being the biggest terroist nation is just RHETORIC. I'm looking at the big picture - this is a MOVEMENT that's just now beginning to take shape. The Republicans are getting scared they are going to lose seats in Congress over this b/c 60%+ share her dissatisfaction with the war. So what's Bush, Delay, & Frist gonna do now?

[lsbets]

Speaking publicly offering support to someone CONVICTED of aiding terrorism is just rhetoric?

[lsbets]

SInce some folkls on here really love polls, here are two from Rasmussen:

39% Say It Is Time to

Withdraw Troops from Iraq

Thirty-nine percent (39%) of Americans say the U.S. should "withdraw its troops from Iraq at this time." A Rasmussen Reports survey found that 46% disagree and 15% are not sure.

Cindy Sheehan:

35% Favorable 38% Unfavorable

Cindy Sheehan, the grieving mother who maintained an anti-War protest outside of President Bush's ranch, is viewed favorably by 35% of Americans and unfavorably by 38%.

Draw you own conclusions, I don't put much stock in polls, but 35% favorable hardly sounds like a majority.

Here's one more:

Tuesday August 23, 2005--Forty-seven percent (47%) of American adults now approve of the way George W. Bush is performing his role as President

So - 35% favorable for Cindy, 47% approval for Bush (in fairness, 52% disapprove Bush) - but, Cindy's favorable ratings are worse than Bush's.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Foreingers of friendly and unfriendly countries, citizens and governments, believing that rhetoric and shaping their policies because of their belief in the truth and validity of that rhetoric....echoed by dopey senators like Turban Durbin (one of my senators, I'm ashamed to say)....media broadcasting it to the world because it's newsworthy while not giving equal time to the show-the-successes and stay-the-cause crowd because it isn't interesting or newsworthy enough.....nope, worst traitors.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Oh, yeah, another question is, where are those people located. If the change is just in the number of people in an currently Blue state, and the majority option in the reasonably sized Red States does not change, then it still might not matter in 2008, will it? :lol:

[JustRalph]

That stuff about the US being the biggest terroist nation is just RHETORIC.

In the Red States it is called bullshit! You hope it is a movement. Keep dreaming.........Joan Baez and the rest didn't do anything but make fools of themselves in the past........they have less credibility now. Keep singing those folk songs brother..............just some more old hippies hoping to touch the past......one more time...................

Woodstock........in Crawford?

[Bobby]

Your right. It might not be a movement. BUT if troops keep getting killed and if we stay over there till like 2007 or 2008, the republicans probably lose seats over this. And we ain't leaving any time soon. Everyone can see that. People are already getting feed up.And everyone thinks we're gonna win the war on terrorism. Hell we can't catch the top ones in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Tom]

So Bobby, you support the slaying of thousands of innocent Iraqi's by a an illegal dictatorship? Because that is exactly what will hapeen if we pull out now. You have any doubts that there will retribution on all those who stood up and voted and are trying to take control of their own lives?


Why don't you do a little research and look up re-enlistment results and fresh recruitments - both UP! UP! The threat of Iraq is well known there is no secret about it. Yet those who have been there are signing up to stay - and those who have never been are signing up to do thier part. Not just get college paid for.
Silent majority ---- this is them, dude.

[PaceAdvantage]

Your right. It might not be a movement. BUT if troops keep getting killed and if we stay over there till like 2007 or 2008, the republicans probably lose seats over this.

Why is it always politics with you guys? This goes WAY BEYOND politics. I'm beginning to think the left puts politics first, America second.

And OUR troops? The left will put them wherever they think they can benefit from them the most, and this includes a garbage dumpster if need be....

[Bobby]

This is what she thinks guys:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/coming-back-to-crawford_b_6121.html

[JustRalph]

This is what she thinks guys:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/coming-back-to-crawford_b_6121.html

She demonstrates her foolishness via the blog. I see most of the posters are against her. She is a fool. And she is followed by fools.........

[Bobby]

Ok lets get down to the crux of this matter.

The fact is that anyone who stands to ya'lls IDOL - George W. Bush - gets hammered down like a nail. We're over in the Middle East, in the desert, with no real mission. We're supposedly "hunting terrorists." Have we found anyone except the guntoters on the streets? Have we EVER found a mastermind? NO

[Steve 'StatMan']

She deemed the war senseless, but there was and is sense for being there still. She has lots of questions that nearly all of us can see the answer to, except each side sees different answers, of course.

I'm sorry that she lost her son. But our Armed Forces are made from volunteers. Some because they believe in the cause, others because they need to learn discipline, need the benefits like an eduation later (many employers have education benefits), and many other reasons. The vast majority of these troops grow and serve valiantly. Some will disagree privately about the cause - only natural.

Would Cindy Sheehan's son, although I'm sure he loved his mother, think about what she's doing?!!

But it seems only those that disagree, either now or later, end up on TV News and "Moore-Job" movies that are being used to 'build' public opinion.

Those that either serving or just in the general public, that are willing to follow the plan, whether they agree with it or at least accept it, are the expected norm, but that isn't newsworthy, that doesn't get the attention. Only those that buck the trend get the attention, the media coverage.

What the hell do the many millions of people who actually support staying the course, and supporting the setup of a stable government in Iraq have to do to get the same amount of TV News attention that this one and balance out this story out?!!!

Mrs. Sheehan stated in her very brief note that "the vast majority of Americans are with her." Yet in the 13 comments so far, but here are 9 of them, from perhaps 8 or 9 people:

Posted by: Trace on August 24, 2005 at 01:21AM

Cindy Sheehan is a nut. Yes, the Iraq war is being handled horribly. And Yes, I think it is finally time an American took a stand and protested President Bush's lack of planning. But the words coming out of her mouth extend way past the Iraq war. She is an extremist with an agenda, even if one of her agenda items happens to coincide with mine.

Posted by: Scott on August 24, 2005 at 01:22AM

Do what you have to do. But do not lose everything while doing it! Best of Luck.

Posted by: Trace on August 24, 2005 at 01:23AM

Looks like you are doing this more for your own need for publicity then your dead son.

Posted by: David on August 24, 2005 at 01:26AM

Agree with Iraq or not, leaving now would spell disaster. Stay the course America!

Posted by: Brian on August 24, 2005 at 01:26AM

when you have no oil how many millions of babies will die?

Posted by: Akmed on August 24, 2005 at 01:26AM

This isn't Viet Nam and all those young adults over there are volunteers. I have two 'kids'in the military and I respect the choices they make even if I don'tlike their career choices. If a policeman dies in South Central LA, his mother does not parade to the mayor wondering what her son was doing there. The officer chose his position.

Posted by: roberta on August 24, 2005 at 01:27AM

Cindy... you've made a joke of yourself and your cause. You've fallen in love with the attention and have become drunk on your 15 minutes of fame. Respect your son. You are not bigger than what your won died for. He respectfully died for his country. God bless him.

Posted by: Rich B on August 24, 2005 at 01:27AM

I don't see how you can say such babble when this is not a draft, rather everyone who has died has chosen to join the military, knowing the risk, and they have done so for the good of our country. It's not like our great President came to your house, picked up your son, and sent him overseas. He chose to go, and while I'm sorry he died, that was his choice to join the military and serve his country. You should be proud of him for what he did, not complain that others are willingly fighting for what they believe in. If our country was founded by people like you I probably wouldn't be alive right now.

Posted by: Chris on August 24, 2005 at 01:27AM

Ms. Sheehan,

My heart pours out for your loss, but I'm afraid that your sorrow has transformed itself into misguided activism. Leaving now would be the biggest possible mistake the U.S. could make. Iraq needs a fighting chance to establish a government that can stand up to these terrorists, and without our participation, this could never possibly happen. Our withdrawel would open Iraq up to lawlessness, and the men with the strongest guns will then rule the land.

Peace to you.

[lsbets]

Bobby, here is the rest of what she thinks. These are her own words I am using, nothing made up. She spoke at a rally in support of Lynn Stewart. If you don't know who Lynn Stewart is, she is an attorney who was convicted of passing messages from Sheik Rachman (the blind cleric, you know WTC attack #1) to his supporters. She was convicted of aiding terrorism. Cindy Sheehan spoke in support of this woman. Here are some quotes:

"America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for."

Sheehan said she considered Lynne Stewart her Atticus Finch, the lawyer who defended an innocent Black man accused of rape in the book and film “To Kill A Mockingbird.”

“They’re not waging a War on Terror but a War of Terror,” she said. “The biggest terrorist is George W. Bush.”

Here's a real good one:

"It’s OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons but we are waging nuclear war in Iraq"

We are waging nuclear war?!?!?! Hello Earth to Cindy, come down please.

And here is one of the flyers advertising the event:

Now, you might not like what it says at the top - Should we support the Iraqi Resistance?

She spoke there? Didn't the insurgents kill her son? Not in her mind, in her mind Bush did and the terrorist nation of America did. So, she has no problem speaking at an event that asks if people should support the folks who actually killed her son.

Bobby, Cindy is no mere grieving mother. Her own words say otherwise. While she had great publicity when this first started, her previous appearances are now coming out and the more middle America knows about her, the less middle America will care about her. Everyone will feel sorrow for her that her son died in a war that he voluunteered for, but her own words clearly put her way out of the mainstream.

I feel bad for Cindy Sheehan that her son died. Her son died a hero. He reenlisted knowing that he would go to Iraq, and he volunteered to go on the recovery mission in which he was killed. Her son was not a poor victim, he was a heroic volunteer, a top quality soldier, and he epitimized what is so great about the country that she seems to despise.

[Tom]

Ok lets get down to the crux of this matter.

The fact is that anyone who stands to ya'lls IDOL - George W. Bush - gets hammered down like a nail. We're over in the Middle East, in the desert, with no real mission. We're supposedly "hunting terrorists." Have we found anyone except the guntoters on the streets? Have we EVER found a mastermind? NO



Huh?
Where you been, Bobby?
You have missed a few news stories.
Try FoxNews Archives.;)

[lsbets]

We're over in the Middle East, in the desert, with no real mission.

No real mission? Wow, I guess I was dreaming for 13 months.

[Tom]

"America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for."



And you are not worth grieving, for.....BITCH.
I'll save my grief for mothers of soldiers who are not wack-jobs.


Funny the left wing media ignores all this biutch's crap and jumps all over Pat Robinson for suggsting a very logical preventive measure to terrorism.

America not worth fighting for!
Can you imagine the press outrage is Pat had said this?

[Steve 'StatMan']

I have a big thought here that might sum this up best:

The mothers of those fighting Our troops, and those of the New Iraq, to either put Saddam supporters back in power, trying to keep their fellow countrymen from ruling each other, letting the fighters ruling their countrymen, have lost tens of thousands, if not hundreds, and brought great hardship upon their fellow countrymen who were unfortunate enough to be near these fighters when they get fired upon by the Coalition Forces and are killed or injured.

WE WANT THE MOTHERS OF INSURGENT FIGHTERS CRYING TO THEIR SONS AND TO THEIR MEDIA BEGGING THEIR SONS TO GIVE UP AND STOP FIGHTING, NOT OUR MOTHERS!!! We need THEIR MOTHERS, not ours, to be the Cindy Sheehans.

And when those fighters give up, if they'll even listen to their mothers, that my friends, is when this damned war will end. It always has been, since the very beginning. If they gave up 1 year ago, or 6 months ago, whatever, that's when the war would have ended.

If we give up and let it colapse, THEN we will have pissed away Cindy Sheehan's Son's life.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Ok lets get down to the crux of this matter.

The fact is that anyone who stands to ya'lls IDOL - George W. Bush - gets hammered down like a nail. We're over in the Middle East, in the desert, with no real mission. We're supposedly "hunting terrorists." Have we found anyone except the guntoters on the streets? Have we EVER found a mastermind? NO

We don't care if you, or anyone, likes or dislikes George W. Bush.

We just want people to stop thinking and acting like nails! We don't want people advocating policies that turn our country into nails! Because we know that if we do things that way, the enemies WILL treat ALL of us like nails!

[Tom]

Tip of the hat and some reputation points for your total.

[boxcar]

Sheean quote:

"America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for."

To all the "patriotic" Cindy Sheeans of this great nation -- you know who you are -- the U.N. lovers, globalists, antinationalists, anticapitalists -- to all those who share this poor misguided, deluded woman's sentiments, I have this to say: A country that is not worth dying for cannot possibly be worth living in.

Boxcar

[Steve 'StatMan']

My thanks Tom and to my fellow posters for your strong support! Wow!

Bobby, I don't want to be a jerk, but I do want to thank you for that link. I have submitted an expanded and edited version of post #26, while expressing my sorrow for the losses of all our troups, under my name, Steve Miller. They do read posts before putting them up, hopefully the strong but meaningful words won't get it rejected, perhaps I can clean it a bit for sensitive readers/filters.

[Lefty]

bobby says;This thing appears to be gaining momentum just as the opinion polls are confirming her actions: Americans are uniting

Got some breaking news for yuh bobby. Soon in Crawford there will be a lot more moms whose sons and daughters were killed in Iraq who will be dn there protesty Cindy Sheehan. It's the "Cindy doesn't speak for me." Moms. They will be many more than Cindy's little leftwing group.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Hooray! Go Moms! Go!

And its a lot more classier than if they picketed outside of Cindy Sheehan's home. After all, she's got an ill mom to take care of, although it's not like she's got a country to lead or any wars to monitor as a Commander In Chief!

[46zilzal]

And its a lot more classier than if they picketed outside of Cindy Sheehan's home.
Your English teacher turned over in her grave! More classy or classier but NOT BOTH together

[Steve 'StatMan']

Your English teacher turned over in her grave! More classy or classier but NOT BOTH together

So that explains the rumbling sound I'd been hearing! ;)

[Tom]

While the "ditch digger crowd" tries to make us believe they are a grass roots movement, the REAL grass roots movement - the "You don't speak for me, Cindy" group is truly spontaneous. The original plan was to camp out rigiht next to the "Soros employees", but before they even got there, there were far too many to do so - so they have to rent a hall to hold everyone.

Joan Baez - moveon.....Ted Nugent is coming! (well, at least his wife is)

[ljb]

While the "ditch digger crowd" tries to make us believe they are a grass roots movement, the REAL grass roots movement - the "You don't speak for me, Cindy" group is truly spontaneous. The original plan was to camp out rigiht next to the "Soros employees", but before they even got there, there were far too many to do so - so they have to rent a hall to hold everyone.

Joan Baez - moveon.....Ted Nugent is coming! (well, at least his wife is)
Tom,
If you think those "you don't speak for me Cindy" groups are not fully sponsored by one or more right wing groups, you are suffering from what i call "Lefty disease"

[Lefty]

lbj, wait, you're worried that the "Cindy doesn't speak for me moms, might have rightwing s[onsors but don't raise an eyebrow about Cindy's far far left sponsors? My My.
BTW, the diff is these moms don't change their story around. Cindy has lied. That's a big diff.
"Lefty disease" an infectous love of the truth and this country that hopefully is contageous.

[Lefty]

These Ciny doesn't speak for me moms" Will be there a thousand or more strong. Cindy has what, 50, 100?

[ljb]

Lefty,
I am not worried about the right wing supporting the anti cindy moms. I was just pointing out to Tom that they too have sponsers.
Google it. Lefty's disease--- an inability to see the truth. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bobby]

Soon in Crawford there will be a lot more moms whose sons and daughters were killed in Iraq who will be dn there protesty Cindy Sheehan. It's the "Cindy doesn't speak for me." Moms.

Paid operatives of the Republican Party.

I saw one soldier's mom on CNN on saturday. She's in the cindy doesn't speak for me group - she sounded like a broken record. Used the senate leaderships talking points --- SHE'S PAID. Cindy Sheehan = a fresh voice in this debate.

[lsbets]

Paid operatives of the Republican Party.

I saw one soldier's mom on CNN on saturday. She's in the cindy doesn't speak for me group - she sounded like a broken record. Used the senate leaderships talking points --- SHE'S PAID. Cindy Sheehan = a fresh voice in this debate.

More than 3,000 people joined that "paid operative" in Crawford on Saturday for the You Don't Speak For Me Cindy tour.

Call Deborah Johns what you want Bobby, but her son has done two tours in Iraq with the Marines and is getting ready to go back for a 3rd time. Paid, I doubt it - proud, I think so, and she should be.

[Bobby]

yeah, I saw that 2 LSB. The thing is is that its the whole town of Crawford, TX that's starting to unite against Cindy's group. GWB is Crawford's favorite son. Its like the texas rancher who brought out his shotgun and started firing in the air at "the protestors." They had to move "the protestors" outta that field. Now they have a big festival, love on GWB for a while. Its really pathetic.

[lsbets]

Booby, there are 700 people in the town of Crawford. Last time I checked, 700 was about 2300 short of 3,000. You're an accountant, right? How can 700=3000?
Deborah Johns started her convoy in California. She stopped in Dallas the night before she went to Crawford. It was packed with people in Dallas to see her and join her on her way down there. She had people join her all along the way from California to Crawford. I doubt all 700 people in Crawford flew out to California to drive all the way back to Crawford and somehow turn in to 3,000 people. If that happenned, we need to reopen the X-Files.

[lsbets]

Several families of fallen U.S. soldiers attended the rally, including John Wroblewski and his wife from Jefferson Township, N.J. The couple, whose oldest son, Marine 2nd Lt. John Thomas Wroblewski, died in Iraq last year, said they disagree with Sheehan's beliefs that Bush misled Americans about the reasons for the war.

"We're not for war. I don't think anybody is ... but we've got to complete the mission," John Wroblewski said.

Deena Burnett, whose husband Tom was on the fourth plane hijacked on Sept. 11, 2001, said he and the other passengers fought the terrorists before their plane crashed in a Pennsylvania field.

"Now it's up to us to continue what he started," Burnett said Saturday to cheers from those at the pro-Bush rally.

[Bobby]

CINDY meets the President :D

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=3776543&nav=5D7ldqyy


From the article --

"Meanwhile, a few dozen Bush supporters held signs from their small camp in a ditch across the street from Sheehan's original site, where most of the dozens of protesters have continued camping off the main road leading to Bush's ranch. A dozen sheriff's deputies stood between the two groups. "

[lsbets]

Bobby - your article was Sunday, I was referring to Saturday. Saturday is the day before Sunday.

[Lefty]

bobby, Martin Sheen has also been here in NV yrs ago chaining himself to fences protesting nuclear testing. He's a piece of work alright. The simple fact is that Cindy Sheehan is in the minority and she doesn't speak for most moms who has children in Iraq. That's the simple fact of it Bobby.
The article conveniently leaves out the fact that this woman has had 1 meeting with GW Bush and she had glowing things to say. Now she's changed her tune. They left that out, Bobby.

[Bobby]

Look, I just stand for the prinicple of not being in IRAQ. Im not advocating helping the terrorists in anyway. I agree with Cindy that we need to get out of IRAQ. This whole IRAQ thing has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. There's not ONE shred of evidence linking IRAQ to 9/11. So why are we there?

The Bush admin, on the heels of new opinion polls showing mounting opposition to his plans & ideas for IRAQ, has now paid a group of moms to ride around the country in a tour bus speaking and promoting GWB's ideas.

Who in there right mind would want their son in IRAQ? This is just totally CRAZY. GWB bought these women.

[Bobby]

All of this and Im paying $2.50 at the pump and its supposedly going to be $2.60 or .65 tomorrow. Mark that up to GWB's failed policies.
His answer is to open up ANWR and tinker with daylight savings time. Why not befriend the middle east 2 an extent rather than alienate it? I know ISRAEL is important but is it that important?

All this stuff is going to catch up with the Republicans in 2006 and 2008. I bet they'll have an exit strategy before then.

[lsbets]

Look, I just stand for the prinicple of not being in IRAQ. Im not advocating helping the terrorists in anyway. I agree with Cindy that we need to get out of IRAQ. This whole IRAQ thing has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. There's not ONE shred of evidence linking IRAQ to 9/11. So why are we there?

The Bush admin, on the heels of new opinion polls showing mounting opposition to his plans & ideas for IRAQ, has now paid a group of moms to ride around the country in a tour bus speaking and promoting GWB's ideas.

Who in there right mind would want their son in IRAQ? This is just totally CRAZY. GWB bought these women.

Bobby, maybe its just that those Moms are proud of their son's courage and convictions. I bet your Mom would be proud if you proved to be courageous.

[lsbets]

And who would you like us to be friendly with Bobby? I presume you mean oil producing countries. Do you mean:

Saudi Arabia? Most folks say we're too friendly with them
Kuwait? They're practically a U.S. territory
Libya? They've been trying really hard to get friendly
Egypt? Not sure how much oil they produce, but they get a ton of aid from us every year.
Syria? Jordan? I don't think those guys produce too much oil

Who does that leave?

Iran - that's it, you must want us to get friendly with Iran. I don't think too many people would go for that.

So, who do you want us to get friendly with?

[Bobby]

That's BS. So your telling me that these women on the tour bus are out here promoting GWB's war policies and wanting their sons and daughters in IRAQ. Yea they might support THEIR SONS and WANT them to come home safe, but I guarantee you that if MOMMA JOHNS had a choice she'd have Soldier Johns in the coup right besider her.

SO, If U GUYS CAN SEE, Ms Johns doesn't really support this war. She's being pimped out by Bush and senate leadership. And if you guys can't see that then . .....I donno what to tell you.

She, at least, I hope wants her soon to come home ALIVE. I betcha she also wants him to come home a lot sooner rather than later. Whatcha think?

So the fact is that these women were bought and paid for by the senate leadership and karl rove.

[lsbets]

Okay Bobby. here ya go:

My wife never wanted me to leave.
Once I left, my wife wanted me to come home the next day (alive).
The whole time I was gone my wife was damned proud of what I was doing, but still would rather have me home with her and the kids.
My wife supported the war from day one and still supports it today knowing full well there is a 50/50 chance that I go back to Iraq.

Is my wife being pimped out by Bush? Is my wife bought and paid for by Rove?

Military families have shown higher numbers in polls supporting the war than non military families. Are all of those military families pimped out or bought and paid for?


So your facts seem to be nothing more than the ramblings of an accountant who had a hard time figuring out that 700 is less than 3,000.

[Bobby]

Okay Bobby. here ya go:

My wife never wanted me to leave.
Once I left, my wife wanted me to come home the next day (alive).
The whole time I was gone my wife was damned proud of what I was doing, but still would rather have me home with her and the kids.
My wife supported the war from day one and still supports it today knowing full well there is a 50/50 chance that I go back to Iraq.

Is my wife being pimped out by Bush? Is my wife bought and paid for by Rove?

Military families have shown higher numbers in polls supporting the war than non military families. Are all of those military families pimped out or bought and paid for?


So your facts seem to be nothing more than the ramblings of an accountant who had a hard time figuring out that 700 is less than 3,000.

Exactly, your wife wants you to be home and misses you when you are gone. She's gonna support you while your over there and she wants you to come home safely, but . .. . . What's Ms Johns motives?

She's Rove's spin machine b/c I DON'T KNOW OF ONE SINGLE PERSON WHO DOESN'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS. AND THAT's REALLY the only reason she should be on a tour bus going cross-country. I support them, but I Don't think they should be there.

JOHNS is supporting bush's ideas and policies. That's her motive.

Cindy Sheehan has a clear & convincing motive - she wants us out of IRAQ. She sees no reason why we are there.

[lsbets]

Dude - did you see the part where I said:

My wife supported the war from day one and still supports it today knowing full well there is a 50/50 chance that I go back to Iraq.

That doesn't mean she just supported me while I was gone, that means she supported the war.

She supports the war means that she thought going into Iraq was the right thing to do and finishing the job in Iraq is the right thing to do. No different than Mrs. John's motives. When they were in Crawford on Saturday they were telling the nation that Cindy Sheehan does not speak for them as military families. What's their motive? To do just that. To say "You don't speak for me Cindy."

Cindy Sheehan also says America is the largest terrorist nation in the world and that we have been killing innocent people for our whole history and that this nation is not worth dying for. It goes way beyond Iraq with her. Her words, not mine.

[Bobby]

The thing is is that Sheehan does support the troops. Just like the military families do.

so the question is is there anyone who doesn't support the troops? NO. Very few.

Its a maternal instinct, I believe, that has led Sheehan to do what she's doing.

It's some other, not so clear instinct that has led Johns to do what she's doing. Does she REALLY want us to finish the job? R does she really want her son home? That's kinda the question. Yes both can happen, but I believe ulterior motives are at play.

[Lefty]

bobby, bobby, Cindy's the one that met with Bush and said nice things. And now she's calling him a killer and us a terrorist nation. Anyone's beinmg pimped, it's her.

We all want the soldiers to come home alive and we grieve at everyone's demise and injuries But we're proud of what they're doing and why they're there. These Moms are sick of Cindy being held up as a mirror for them and now they're speaking out. It has nothing to do with Bush and Rove and everything to do with their patriotism. There were plenty of links between Bin Ladin and Saddam and I have listed them plenty of times. But you want to turn your back on the obvious truth and blve the radical dems who care more about regaining power than this country. Sheehan has said this country is not worth dying for. What say you, Bobby?

Gas prices have nothing to do with any failure on this adm's part. Who for all these yrs have kept us from drilling in a whole bunch of places that would have produced millions if not billions of barrels of oil. Why it's your cherised leftwing dems that's who. And now that the rest of the world is getting industrialized there's more demand. It's the old supply and demand. If we had been drilling at home in anwir and other places we'd be paying less gas prices.

[JustRalph]

Bobby.........your Avatar has never been more apropos

You know Bobby, I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you just don't get it. Somewhere between WWII and the sixties some forgot what it takes to keep a country strong. What if the millions of men and women who proudly put on a uniform after Pearl Harbor, shared your half hearted support for war? Let's face it. You are just anti-war. The only thing that makes us different from hundreds of other countries, is our oft proven attitude towards our defense. One of the latest examples was when Ronald Reagan took office and ten seconds later the hostages were released. We are willing to travel to other countries and hunt down the bad guys and kill them. Most other countries are not. We have young people who understand (they get it) the value in a strong military. So do their parents. And they are proud of the fact that their children carry on the tradition of thousands of men and women who are buried in foreign cemeteries and jungles. They still get it.........and the minute we no longer are willing to hunt down the bad guys and kill them.........in the interest of our country........we will be taken advantage of. Thankfully, we have the technology to put more robotic assets at risk. In twenty years we will be whipping ass with more and more robots and employing technologies that we can only dream of today. I look forward to that era..........but there will still be kids out there guiding those robots, and they will still get it.

[Secretariat]

There were plenty of links between Bin Ladin and Saddam and I have listed them plenty of times.

Lefty, for those of us that missed them, would you mind reposting a few?

[boxcar]

Bobby wrote:

The Bush admin, on the heels of new opinion polls showing mounting opposition to his plans & ideas for IRAQ, has now paid a group of moms to ride around the country in a tour bus speaking and promoting GWB's ideas.

Who in there right mind would want their son in IRAQ? This is just totally CRAZY. GWB bought these women.

Oh..."paid...moms", eh? Gee, maybe that accounts for why the latest API or UPI poll showed that 64% of Americans don't want the troops pulling out of Iraq until the country is stabelized. Conversely, about 34% want us to pull out now. Looks like Bush also had the pollsters in his hip pocket, too -- not to mention a whole bunch of "paid dads" to boot. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Bobby wrote:

The thing is is that Sheehan does support the troops. Just like the military families do.

so the question is is there anyone who doesn't support the troops? NO. Very few.

Englighten me, Bobby: How does someone mouth off support for the troops without supporting their mission?

This is something else our young troops understand: They see the hypocrisy in those kinds of empty words when real support of them would necessarily involve supporting their mission, as well.

Its a maternal instinct, I believe, that has led Sheehan to do what she's doing.

Is that right? Well, there's lots of moms out there who don't have her brand of "maternal instinct".

Boxcar

[Lefty]

sec, if you expect me to provide links to stories then you took my meaning wrong. There were links between bin ladin and Saddam and you know damn well what they were. Zarqawi was there training terrorists, in Saddam's Iraq.
Saddam was paying of families of homicide bombers. Not to mention he thumbed his nose at us by breaking 17 sanctions. A prudent Pres would have thght Saddam was up to something, esp when said pres was holding intel that said Saddam was trying to build nukes. This Pres. took action, knowing how strategic Iraq is to to the terrorists and before Saddam could strike. He protected this country and now the anti-war nuts are crying. Too bad.

[ljb]

Lefty
only in your imagination were there links between Saddam and Osama bin forgotten.

[Tom]

There was a terrorist training camp inside Iraq where they had an actual airliner - to pratice hijacking. Clear links to Bin Laden are all over Iraq - and no one is saying that SH had arole in 9-11 but he did have a roll in worldwide terroism.

And least we all forget - there was a war, THEN there was an election. All those opposed to the war had thier chance to change regiemes here at home and FAILED to do so.
The lefties are so disombobbled over the last TWO elections I have no doubt they really believe 700=3000! :D

Oh yeah, please explain how re-ups and new enlistments are UP if som many people are agaisnt the war? UP, UP, UP. Full knowledge of what is at stake. UP, UP, UP.

[Secretariat]

Lefty,

I am still waiting for the links. Saying Al Queda had terrorist training camps in Iraq sanctioned by Hussein is unproven. Are you maintaining that Hussein arranged with Zarqawi or Bin Laden to set up terrorist camps in Iraq to strike the US? And were these camps in the parts of Iraq that Hussein had control over, or were they in the No Fly Zones?

Using your logic one could say the US allowed terrorists to train in the US such as Attah and the others.

Unless you can prove that Hussein sanctioned and sponsored Al Queda in Iraq, you're simply speculating again without proof. It will be interesting though to see if those allegations are made at Hussein's trial - whenever that occurs.

As Paul Hackett maintains, "Iraq was and is a diversion from the war on terror."

[lsbets]

Indeed, more than two years after the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein was ousted, there is much we do not know about the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. We do know, however, that there was one. We know about this relationship not from Bush administration assertions but from internal Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) documents recovered in Iraq after the war--documents that have been authenticated by a U.S. intelligence community long hostile to the very idea that any such relationship exists.

We know from these IIS documents that beginning in 1992 the former Iraqi regime regarded bin Laden as an Iraqi Intelligence asset. We know from IIS documents that the former Iraqi regime provided safe haven and financial support to an Iraqi who has admitted to mixing the chemicals for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. We know from IIS documents that Saddam Hussein agreed to Osama bin Laden's request to broadcast anti-Saudi propaganda on Iraqi state-run television. We know from IIS documents that a "trusted confidante" of bin Laden stayed for more than two weeks at a posh Baghdad hotel as the guest of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

We have been told by Hudayfa Azzam, the son of bin Laden's longtime mentor Abdullah Azzam, that Saddam Hussein welcomed young al Qaeda members "with open arms" before the war, that they "entered Iraq in large numbers, setting up an organization to confront the occupation," and that the regime "strictly and directly" controlled their activities. We have been told by Jordan's King Abdullah that his government knew Abu Musab al Zarqawi was in Iraq before the war and requested that the former Iraqi regime deport him. We have been told by Time magazine that confidential documents from Zarqawi's group, recovered in recent raids, indicate other jihadists had joined him in Baghdad before the Hussein regime fell. We have been told by one of those jihadists that he was with Zarqawi in Baghdad before the war. We have been told by Ayad Allawi, former Iraqi prime minister and a longtime CIA source, that other Iraqi Intelligence documents indicate bin Laden's top deputy was in Iraq for a jihadist conference in September 1999.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/804yqqnr.asp?pg=2

[lsbets]

There's a link to an article for you Sec, I'm not going to argue it one way or another, but both sides of this issue can make their case.

I do have a serious question for you, and I am hoping it doesn't degenerate into the typical argument here. It might be nice to have an actual discussion that addresses the present - we're in Iraq, what do we do now? Do we double the troops on the ground? Do we send another division to the Syrian border? Do we do things exactly as they are now? Do we pull out tomorrow? For the sake of the argument, I'll concede that Iraq was a diversion in the war on terror (only for the sake of the argument). Given that Al Quada is activley recruiting and sending people in to Iraq and conducting the deadliest attacks in Iraq, would you say that Iraq is now a major front in the war on terror? Do you advocate an immediate pullout from Iraq? If we were to pull out immediatly from Iraq, do you feel that would send a message to Al Quada and other terrorist wannabees out there that the US will cut and run once we take a fair amount of casualties, and that we can be beaten on the edges around the world because we don't have the stomach for an extended fight?

Those are the important questions, in my mind, that need to be dealt with. Everything else is a diversion from the present.

[dav4463]

The anti-war protesters are mostly a bunch of old, dope-smoking hippies who can't let go of the 60's and are looking for another Vietnam to protest.

Didn't Cindy meet with the president once before and not say anything but good things about their meeting? Then she decides to become a mouthpiece for the anti-war groups and starts trashing the president. I'm sorry her son died over there, but I would bet he would not be proud of what she is doing.

[Lefty]

lbj, your post written so poorly i really can't fathom what it is you're trying to say. Are you trying to say there were no links between Bin Ladin and Saddam? It's clear Zarqawi was in Iraq and he's the link to Bin Ladinin. There ya go.

[Lefty]

sec, Zarqawi is the link to Bin Ladin. You did nothing in Iraq without Saddam's approval. Whether he was going to strike the U.S. is speculation, but it seems likely since we had one 9-11 already. What i'm saying is: loaded with the intel Bush had, he would have been remiss in not striking Iraq. Once again, if he hadn't and Saddam got us, you and all the rest of the anti-war crowd would be hollering impeachment. So it's clear, you hate Bush cause he's got the wrong agenda in your libs mind so no matter whe he does you're already to hate it.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Plus most of the other nations believed, to some degree at least, the intellilgence. Many of those countries even contributed to it. The key difference was that some nations favored a different approach than an invasion, even after the continued diplomacy efforts had repeatedly failed when Saddam always blew them, and the U.N. Inspectors off. And prior efforts at economic sanctions just harmed and weakend the general population, creating ever greater hatred for the U.S., while Saddam and his sons milked the country for all it was worth, becoming even more wealthier and very much in tight control over all their people. With Saddam's network of high powered government officials, secret police, and so many associated goons and torture chambers, there was just no way the people could revolt and overthrow him on their own. He just coldly let his own nation's people bear the brunt of everything. They bore the hardships of his regiem. They bore the brunt of the sanctions that couldn't work. Finally, he made them bare the physical brunt of an attack by us to destroy his war/defense structure in order to capture and/or kill him and all those fighting to keep him and his regiem in power (remember, we even gave him the option of going into self exile before the invasion).

[ljb]

sec, Zarqawi is the link to Bin Ladin. You did nothing in Iraq without Saddam's approval. Whether he was going to strike the U.S. is speculation, but it seems likely since we had one 9-11 already. What i'm saying is: loaded with the intel Bush had, he would have been remiss in not striking Iraq. Once again, if he hadn't and Saddam got us, you and all the rest of the anti-war crowd would be hollering impeachment. So it's clear, you hate Bush cause he's got the wrong agenda in your libs mind so no matter whe he does you're already to hate it.
Lefty,
You got any pictures? We got pictures of Saddam and Rummy. :D :D :D Now that's a link.

[Lefty]

lbj, when you run out of argument, you try to be funny. I've told you before, humor is not your forte'
Zaqawi was in Iraq before 9-11 and it's a well known fact. Rush used to have some pictures on his website bur prob. not there now. You wouldn't believe em anyway. So what's the use? You guys favor a socialist agenda so you will continue hating Bush and even use a war as an excuse.

[ljb]

lbj, when you run out of argument, you try to be funny. I've told you before, humor is not your forte'
Zaqawi was in Iraq before 9-11 and it's a well known fact. Rush used to have some pictures on his website bur prob. not there now. You wouldn't believe em anyway. So what's the use? You guys favor a socialist agenda so you will continue hating Bush and even use a war as an excuse.
So you only have fictional pictures. We got real pictures of Saddam and Rummy.
Bush used the war as an excuse to get the sheep to vote for him. Fill them with fear, it's and old trick used by a facists regime in Germany years ago. Those of us who can see through the bs new better then to support this bunch of warmongers and those who chose to be ignorant* swallowed the bs hook, line and sinker.
*Tom this is another example of what happens to those who Ignore. :D

[ljb]

Hey Lefty,
Here is a link to a column in the Christian Science Monitor. The article talks about Cindy Sheehan and weather or not she made a difference. It also has an interesting poll regarding how Americans feel about the war in Iraq and the consequences of same. Scroll down a bit to see the poll.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0829/p01s03-uspo.html

[JustRalph]

From PBS Network: Sabah Khodada was a captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992. He worked at what he describes as a highly secret terrorist training camp at Salman Pak (see Khodada's hand-drawn map of the camp (javascript:spawn('../etc/map.html',450,300))), an area south of Baghdad. In this translated interview, conducted in association with The New York Times on Oct. 14, 2001, Khodada describes what went on at Salman Pak, including details on training hijackers. He emigrated to the U.S. in May 2001.[Editors Note, June 2004: A year after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there has been no verification of Khodada's account of the activities at Salman Pak. It should also be noted that he and other defectors interviewed for this report were brought to FRONTLINE's attention by the Iraqi National Congress (INC), a dissident organization that was working to overthrow Saddam Hussein.]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

above link has more info from PBS


Below from Associated Press:

Marines Discover Terror Training Camp Near Baghdad
Wednesday, April 16, 2003
http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_ap_36.gif
BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. forces came upon a recently abandoned terrorist training camp on the outskirts of Baghdad where recruits were apparently taught how to make bombs and what to do if they got captured, the Marines said Wednesday.

The extensive camp consisted of about 20 permanent buildings on 25 acres south of the city and was operated by the Iraqi government and the Palestine Liberation Front, said Marine spokesman Cpl. John Hoellwarth.

Among the documents found were filled-out questionnaires that included such questions as "What type of missions would you like to carry out?" according to Hoellwarth. He said many recruits wanted to carry out suicide missions.

The camp included an obstacle course and what appeared to be a prison, to teach terrorists what to do if captured and interrogated, Hoellwarth said.

Recruits were also apparently taught how to make bombs, he said. The Marines found chemicals, beakers and pipes.

Hoellwarth said uniforms and gas masks were also left behind, along with bread and other food, suggesting the place had been used fairly recently.

[lsbets]

Ralph, come on you are linking to right wing news organizations like PBS and the AP - both shills for Bush! :lol:

[ljb]

Ralph,
Glad to see you are bringing stuff to the table from different areas. Keep up the good work Ralph.

[Lefty]

lbj, well, there yuh go again, comparing this adm to Nazis. Have you libs no shame whatsoever.
On the radio the lib announcers are very disappointed that over 72% of the people polled said Cindy Sheehan has not made a difference to them. Zaqawi in Iraq before 9-11 and that's a fact. Saddam thumbed his nose at 17 U.N. resolutions and thats a fact. But lbj, to you and many other Bush haters, facts do not matter. So it's useless trying to have a debate with you.

[Lefty]

lbj and other assorted libs: Just heard on the radio that Cindy Sheehan plans to protest the Blue Angels air show. Some spokesman you guys latched onto.

[Lefty]

lbj, ABC poll: 79% not persuaded by Cindy Sheehan. There ya go...

[Lefty]

lbj, I know you were trying to be facetious congratulating Ralph, but did you notice the links he found about the terrorists training facilities supported my recent posts?
Way to go, Ralphie boy!

[Bobby]

You are a dark, dark individual lefty. This woman lost her son over there for no reason. What are we accomplishing in IRAQ? That region has never had a democracy. The only reason Afghanistan is still KINDA got one is b/c we are there patroling it 24/7. So I guess you want us there in 10 years too. C the light.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Casey Sheehan tragically died, but he was serving the needs of the nation for a higher purpose. His mother, and many others, may not agree with that purpose, which is their right. But there was and is a purpose for the missions. To many of us, he died for a cause, for a purpose. To quit and pull out now, to many of us, is what would make his death and the unfortunate deaths of the 1870-ish others pointless. We've tried hard to point out the reasons. This is only a meaningless war to those who see it as meaningless. For many, there is a lot of meaning to it. Casey Sheehan was a hero. We all wish he was still a living hero. But to me and many others, his mothers efforts to squander those tragic, heroic sacrifices is not praise-worthy at all.

[Lefty]

bobby, the woman lost her son, yes and it's sad. But it's not for no reason. We have plenty of reason and i've listed them till i'm blue in the face. There have been a lot of moms and dads that have lost children in Iraq and they do not agree with Cindy. Cindy's own family do not agree with her. Cindy has told of her meeting with the Pres. 2 diff ways.
Cindy now plans to protest the Blue Angels.
Cindy has said this country not worth dying for. Do you agree, Bobby?

[Secretariat]

Lefty, Isbets, JR,

C’mon, guys give it up already. This is all old news.

Apparently, you did not read the 911 Commission’s report which was appointed by President Bush which states categorically there was no link between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein

“The commission pointed out that politically, Hussein and Osama bin Laden are on different wavelengths. Bin Laden relies on his fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Hussein was always denounced by fundamentalist Islamists as a secularist who suppressed Islam in Iraq. The commission even recounts aid by bin Laden to Islamist opponents of Hussein in northern Iraq.
The administration is not asserting that Iraq had anything to do with the 9-11 attacks. It had already conceded it has no evidence of that. The issue is whether there were contacts between Hussein and al-Qaida that showed a working relationship. The administration relied on that allegation as a reason for war. The 9-11 commission says there were no contacts that can be called "collaborative."

LEE HAMILTON, 9/11 COMMISSION VICE CHAIRMAN: All we can do is state as clearly as we can what the evidence is that we have found. We have found no operational collaboration between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden with regard to attacks on the United States. That conclusion is a very firm one that we have reached.

Baltimore Sun
Meanwhile, new evidence has emerged debunking the myth. In June, The New York Times reported that two high officials of al-Qaida now in U.S. custody have told interrogators - told them before the war, in fact - that the organization didn't work with Mr. Hussein. Several intelligence officials said no evidence of cooperation had been found in Iraq.

A review panel appointed by CIA Director George J. Tenet to consider "lessons learned" from the war apparently takes the same view. "It was not at all clear there was any coordination or joint activities," a CIA source told The Washington Post.

The charges about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were at least arguable hypotheses, based on known facts about Mr. Hussein's history and inferences from his behavior.

Not so with the al-Qaida/Iraq nexus. It always brought to mind the movie Twins, with Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito playing long-lost brothers. The idea that a secular Baathist dictator would turn over his most deadly weapons to religious zealots bent on creating Islamic theocracies throughout the Muslim world could be believed only by those who desperately wanted to believe.

A deadly alliance between Mr. Hussein and bin Laden was once only a nightmare. Mr. Bush has done his best to make it come true. "

Sigh...another lib group..the 911 Commission..for God's sakes.

[lsbets]

"Abdul Rahman Yasin, a fugitive of the [1993 World Trade Center] attack, is of Iraqi descent, and in 1993, he fled to Iraq with Iraqi assistance."

Senate Intelligence Committee report

"To gain the knowledge of the message from bin Laden and to convey to his envoy an oral message from us to bin Laden, the Saudi opposition leader, about the future of our relationship with him, and to achieve a direct meeting with him."

Internal Iraqi Intelligence memo describing the goal of meetings with an al Qaeda envoy, February 19, 1998

"Cooperation between the two organizations should be allowed to develop freely through discussion and agreement."

Internal Iraqi Intelligence memo on Iraq-al Qaeda cooperation, June 25, 2004, New York Times

[Secretariat]

More specifics beyond the 911 commissions finding debunking any collaborative efforts between Bin Laden and Saddam

First addressing Lefty and JR.

Sabah Khodada claim –

[Editors Note, June 2004: A year after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there has been no verification of Khodada's account of the activities at Salman Pak. It should also be noted that he and other defectors interviewed for this report were brought to FRONTLINE's attention by the Iraqi National Congress (INC), a dissident organization that was working to overthrow Saddam Hussein…ala Chalabi, a real unbiased account]
Also missing from JR’s snippet was this: None of the defectors were able to identify the “Islamic militants” specifically as members of Usama bin Laden’s al Qaeda organizationEnough on that.

Zarqawi – Zarqawi was also known to have been in Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, iran and Saudi Arabia Who knows? He may even have traveled to the US to talk to Attah. Just because Zarqawai was in Iraq doesn’t mean he was collaborating with Hussein. Since the preemptive WMD fiasco, we can no longer associate guilt simply by being in the near vicinity. It’s possbile Attah may have met with Jeb Bush, after all they were both in Florida. A very weak argument.

Please don’t get the impression I supported or liked Saddam. I didn’t. I just did not view him as an imminent threat to the US, and certainly as the 911 Commission said he had nothing to do with 911. Iin fact President Bush has gone on record as saying that, but Lefty still can’t.
Enough on that.

[Secretariat]

Now onto Isbets

“We know from these IIS documents that beginning in 1992 the former Iraqi regime regarded bin Laden as an Iraqi Intelligence asset.”
Of course, Bin Laden became anti-Saudi Royal Family after the Kuwait invasion, and his Mujhadein being snubbed by King Fahd. In 1992 I imagine the Iraqis viewed Bin Laden as someone they could use as an intelligence asset against the Saudi Royal family a decade prior to 2001. But Al Queda is Wahhabbi and is an extremist Islamic cult, just the opposite of Saddam and his boys who were secular fascists. One could say that the US viewed Bin Laden as a US intelligence asset against the Soviets a few years earlier.

“We know from IIS documents that the former Iraqi regime provided safe haven and financial support to an Iraqi who has admitted to mixing the chemicals for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center.”

How in the world does this tie Hussein to Al Queda? To anecdotally make the leap that this was approved by Hussein is (a) unproven (b) Bin Laden may have contributed financially to the first WTC attack, but the logic that someone in Iraq who mixed chemicals for the first WTC attack which was carried out by the imprisoned Blind Sheik’s group, ever knew who Bin Laden was or that he may have contributed funds for that attack doesn’t even tie the alleged Iraqi who mixed the chemicals to Bin Laden, much less put Hussein into that mix. Very weak.

“We know from IIS documents that Saddam Hussein agreed to Osama bin Laden's request to broadcast anti-Saudi propaganda on Iraqi state-run television.”

Al-Zajheeri does this on a daily basis whenever Bin Laden sends them a tape. The fact that Saddam agreed to air anti-Saudi propaganda is no big surprise. Michael Moore airs anti-Saudi footage regularly.

“We know from IIS documents that a "trusted confidante" of bin Laden stayed for more than two weeks at a posh Baghdad hotel as the guest of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.”

So what, Bush flew the entire Bin Laden family out of the country. Aren’t they trusted confidantes of Bin Laden?

OK, onto your stated real questions Isbets.

“We're in Iraq, what do we do now? Do we double the troops on the ground? Do we send another division to the Syrian border? Do we do things exactly as they are now? Do we pull out tomorrow? For the sake of the argument, I'll concede that Iraq was a diversion in the war on terror (only for the sake of the argument).

Good questions. Questions that are actually factioning BOTH parties at the moment.

I’ll start with the easy two.

Do we do things exactly as they are now? Do we pull out tomorrow? BOTH NO

Do we double the troops on the ground? Do we send another division to the Syrian border? THERE WAS A TIME THIS MAY HAVE HELPED IN SECURING THE BORDERS, BUT AS HAGEL SAYS I THINK WE ARE PAST THAT.

Which leave this question - We're in Iraq, what do we do now?

I’LL OFFER MY OPINION TO THAT AFTER ANSWERING YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS.

Given that Al Quada is activley recruiting and sending people in to Iraq and conducting the deadliest attacks in Iraq, would you say that Iraq is now a major front in the war on terror?

NO, I THINK THAT IRAQ IS A TRAINING GROUND FOR EASY ATTACKS ON VULNERABLE TARGETS. THAT ZARQAWI IS A HENCHMAN AND NOT THE REAL LEADERSHIP OF AL QUEDA. A BRIEF PARALLEL TO WW II. JAPAN HAD FORCES THROUGHOUT THE PACIFIC INCLUDING THE PHILLIPINES. WE FOUGHT EARLY THE WAY THE JAPANESE WANTED US TO FIGHT BY FIGHTING EVERYWHERE EXCEPT JAPAN. THIS STRATEGY WAS DEBATED AMONG SOME OF THE MOST PROMINENT MILITARY MINDS AND THERE WAS DISAGREEMENT. MY POINT BENG THAT WE CANNOT FIGHT WHERE THE TERRORISTS WANT US TO FIGHT, AND CURRENTLY THAT IS IN IRAQ, AND BY THE WAY IRAQ OPPOSITION IS MORE THAN JUST AL QUEDA, BUT INSURGENTS AND PREVIOUS MEMBERS OF THE HUSSEIN REGIME. SEPERATING THOSE HAS BECOME DIFIFCULT. BASICALLY WE ARE STRENGTHING AL QUEDA IN IRAQ BY UNITING THEM WITH FORMER DISCONTENTED BATHISTS. IF THEY HAD A PRESENCE IN IRAQ DURING HUSSEIN IT WAS MINIMAL, NOW IT IS BECOMING LARGER DUE TO AMERICAN TROOPS BEING THERE.

Do you advocate an immediate pullout from Iraq?

NO

If we were to pull out immediatly from Iraq, do you feel that would send a message to Al Quada and other terrorist wannabees out there that the US will cut and run once we take a fair amount of casualties, and that we can be beaten on the edges around the world because we don't have the stomach for an extended fight?

DON’T ADVOCATE AN IMMEDIATE PULL OUT

Those are the important questions, in my mind, that need to be dealt with. Everything else is a diversion from the present.

Which leave this question - We're in Iraq, what do we do now?

WHEW…THERE’S A LOT.

FIRST THE PRESIDENT HAS TO EXPLICITLY SPELL OUT A FEW POINTS. HERE’S A SUGGESTED SPEECH BY HIM.

WE WENT TO IRAQ TO FIND WMD’S BECAUSE WE MISTAKENLY BELIEVED SADDAM HAD WMDS. WE DID NOT FIND THEM, AND WE APOLOGIZE TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SUFFERED BY OUR INVASION AND BY SADDAM HUSSEIN’S REFUSAL TO BE MORE FORTHCOMING WHICH PRECIPITATED OUR DECISION.

THE NEW EXPERIMENT IN DEMOCRACY IS AN IRAQI DECISION. WE HAVE SET IN MOTION THE SEEDS FOR IRAQIS TO EXPERIENCE DEMOCRACY, AND IT WILL BE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAINTAIN IT. AS BEN FRANKLIN SAID TO AMERICANS, WE’LL SEE IF THEY [AMERICANS] CAN HOLD IT. THIS MEANS THAT AMERICAN FORCES WILL BE REPLACED MORE AND MORE BY “IRAQI” FORCES AND DECISIONS MADE BY THE IRAQI ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES.

WE DO NOT PLAN A PERMANENT US PRESENCE IN IRAQ, OR EVEN APPROVAL BY AMERICA OF THE DECISIONS IRAQIS MAKE. WE MAY DISAGREE ABOUT DECISIONS MADE BY THE IRAQI ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES, BUT IT IS THEIR NATION.

WE WILL CONTINUE THE FIGHT AGAINST AL QUEDA, BUT IT IS UNFAIR TO EXPOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS TO USING THEIR LAND AS A FRONT ON THE WAR ON TERROR. WITH THAT IN MIND WE WILL EXPEDITE THE TIMETABLE FOR AMERICAN WITHDRAWAL UNDER TWO CONDITIONS. ACCEPTANCE BY THE IRAQI PEOPLE OF THEIR CONSTITUTION, AND THE TRAINING OF THE IRAQI ARMY. THE TRAINING OF THE IRAQI ARMY IS NOT INTENDED TO CREATE PERFECT SOLDIERS, BUT CAPABLE SOLDIERS WILLING TO FIGHT FOR THEIR NEW FREEDOMS. THEREFORE WITHIN ONE YEAR OF THE RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION, AMERICAN FORCES WILL PERMANENTLY WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ. WE WILL APPROPRIATE FUNDS TO HELP IRAQ RESTORE THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE AND NEEDED FACILITIES.

THE IRAQI PEOPLE HAVE SUFFFERED MUCH, BUT THEY ARE A COURAGEOUS PEOPLE WHO I AM SURE WILL UNITE TO BUILD IRAQ TO ITS FORMER POWER, BUT WITH A SENSE OF RENEWED PRIDE AND HONOR OVER THEIR NEW PRIZED FREEDOM.

A few points- This sets a reasonable timetable to get out, tells Al Queda we are coming for Bin Laden, and not going to be dictated to fight the war against terror in a place of al Queda’s choosing. We then begiin to sweep the Pakistani border, burn the Afhan poopy fields, capture Bin Laden, Zawahari, and Omar, and deal with the nuclear threat of Iran and North Korea.

At least that's my approach.

[JustRalph]

Sec

It is amazing how duplicitous you guys can be. When I quote the 911 commission when it comes to Joe Wilson, you say they are wrong and got it all wrong on Wilson. But the minute you find something in their report to bolster your contentions..........you quote them chapter and Verse. you can't have it both ways Sec. .........once again you are revealed...........for what you are.

[JustRalph]

The only reason Afghanistan is still KINDA got one is b/c we are there patroling it 24/7. So I guess you want us there in 10 years too. C the light.

What is wrong with that? We have bases in Korea that have been there 50 years. I can't think of an area more in need of a few U.S. bases. Base realignment is under way all over the globe..........a nice big Air Force base would be great...........

[Lefty]

sec, one more time: It's easy to be a Mon. Morn quarterback. With the intel he had in his hands, not to attack Iraq would have been an impeachable offense. No matter what the commission reported: Zaquari was in Iraq. Saddam was paying off homicide bombers' families. For me that's enough right there. But the war is on. So why does the left keep protesting? They want us to withdraw and lose. It's pitiful.
sec, if you do not want us to lose, then any more protests on your part serve no purpose. WE either stay and win or we withdraw and give Iraq back to the terrorists? Which do you want?


Even as I write this i'm getting a report of protesters at a soldiers funeral. A soldier by the name of Jeremy Doyle. How low can the left get?

[JustRalph]

The Sheehan