Rebates from U.S. wagering co.

[GameTheory]

Finally, some rebates "on-shore", although they only seem to be on the smallest tracks, which is a bit weird.

http://www.ponyupbet.com/thoroughbred.asp

[Valuist]

That 10% on LaD makes this worth looking into. How reputable is this company?

[GameTheory]

That 10% on LaD makes this worth looking into. How reputable is this company?I believe they are the telephone wagering arm of Wyoming Downs...

[BillW]

Finally, some rebates "on-shore", although they only seem to be on the smallest tracks, which is a bit weird.

http://www.ponyupbet.com/thoroughbred.asp

I think the issue is that they need agreement from the tracks to offer the rebate, and the smaller ones are more willing to agree.

Bill

[schweitz]

Let's see----12% takeout on Retama Pick-3's and an 11.1% rebate from this service---hmmmm! :)

[trying2win]

Interesting. Ponyupbet.com rebates for customers is a step in the right direction. I see some racetracks they must have agreements with, 'GET IT' as far as giving customers a break, and giving them some deserved rebates.

After you click on their homepage banner, you arrive at another page. One line from this page, has me wondering what they mean by the following statement:

--"Rebates are based solely on participating tracks surcharges and type of wager placed". (The word 'SURCHARGES' raises a red flag for me and has me wondering what that means in the context of wagering...I know if I was interested in signing-up, I'd be asking them about what that line means.
.

--And in the Company Information section, they mentioned:

"Eighty percent of money bet is returned to the bettors" (another red flag to me). The other part is distributed to horseman, the state of Wyoming and Ponyupbet, regardless of which horse wins." When I read the line "eighty percent of money bet is returned to the bettors", I automatically think of a 20% track takeout. Again, I'd be asking them what the "eighty percent of money bet is returned" line means as well.

I also noticed there are some service charges on certain deposit and withdrawal methods.

I had my doubts whether a Canadian could join, when I saw they only had a menu of states in the sign-up page. I phoned up the toll-free number listed, but it doesn't work in Canada.

If I had a chance to sign-up, if would only be because I like to bet on a couple of the harness tracks listed...i.e. Freehold and Harrington Raceway. The tracks they list for thoroughbred rebates are for minor tracks. Most of them I don't play.


T2W

[Valuist]

Schweitz-

I think that 11% rebate at Retama is for exotics like tris. The rebate on multi-race wagers is 7.1% at Retama.

[rokitman]

I suspect US off-track is the "bookie behind the bookie" at Ponyup like AmericaTAB does with BRIS, TSN etc. It has the same tote that US off-track did use and Euro off-track http://www.eurooff-track.com/ still uses. And it also shows up at Paydog which is linked at US off-track's web page which was, but is no longer a betting site, http://www.usofftrack.com/ They refer to "seven licensees" here http://www.usofftrack.com/aboutus.asp All the sites named here also book greyhound races. Not a coinkydink, I'd venture. US off-track changed their business model after posting these lame results as a bookie http://www.oregonvos.net/~orc/hubs.htm

EDIT: US Off-track owns Paydog (in the "About us").

[midnight]

Most tracks don't care what the rebate shop offers.

In order to offer a rebate, the shop has to pay the track a smaller percentage of the handle going through the shop for the track's signal (to tie into the mutuel pool). Larger tracks aren't willing to give that up because they generally don't need to. The smaller tracks are more receptive, because it adds to their overall revenue.

[schweitz]

Schweitz-

I think that 11% rebate at Retama is for exotics like tris. The rebate on multi-race wagers is 7.1% at Retama.

Thanks--I see that now---still a good deal overall.

[JackS]

At least some of the tracks at Ponyup are linked to Harrahs/Nevada. Suspect many others are track direct combined pools.

[andicap]

As I posted in another thread on this same topic (funny how some posts get response and others on a similar topic don't) NYRA is working with some New York state OTBs to offer rebates to customers.

I now have more information on these rebates. They are for very high-rollers.
NYRA and Nassau OTB and Capitol OTB applied to NY State Racing & Wagering Board for permission to offer these rebates.
They start at 1% a month across the board (on all types of bets) for playes who bet at least $2,000 a month. That's no misprint.

Those who bet much, much more than that are eligible to get higher rebates on a sliding scale. Since the takeout is higher on exotic bets the rebates max out at the multiple race bets at 7%. But we're talking a lot of money here, more than anyone here bets in a month and even a year.

Clearly NYRA is designing these rebates for those who put through millions of dollars a year in hopes of breaking even or even losing a few cents and coming out ahead on the rebates.
You put $10 million a year through the totes, lose 2%, but get a 7% rebate(even 10% at some books) and that's 5% -- a cool $500,000.
You could even lose 5% and make $200,000.

Anyway, NYRA has lost a ton of handle since closing down those 10 racebooks since January in response to the Uvari indictments and this is its first step in triyng to recoup some of that money.

NYC declined to take part saying -- supposedly -- that it could not afford to offer the program.

Interestingly all the risk is being borne by NYRA. The share of the handle for horsemen, breeders, and the state is untouched.

As a small player I don't resent that NYRA is not giving me rebates. The strength of the game depends on big money coming back into the country - it will create larger fields, more purses and is good for the state's breeding industry as a whole.

People have wondered why tracks can't give more rebates back to players and the answer is they have much more fixed costs than the offshore rebate shops whose only expense is sending 3% back to the tracks. The tracks pay the purses, the state, the breeders, all the labor, electricity, heat, upkeep on the barns, track, stands, and insurance. The money they make from admissions/parking and concessions do not begin to cover it.

Have the tracks run their sport wisely? Of course not. Are they fan-friendly? Usually not.
But there is no way they can afford to give the kind of rebates that the offshore books do except on the biggest players.

[rrbauer]

andicap wrote:
"People have wondered why tracks can't give more rebates back to players and the answer is they have much more fixed costs than the offshore rebate shops whose only expense is sending 3% back to the tracks. The tracks pay the purses, the state, the breeders, all the labor, electricity, heat, upkeep on the barns, track, stands, and insurance. The money they make from admissions/parking and concessions do not begin to cover it. "

Comment:
There's no question that the cost structure for an association running race meets is completely different from that of a satellite bet-taking operation. This begs a couple of questions:
1. Why don't the racing associations setup their own satellite bet-taking operations and compete with the other similar operations?
2. What is it about the product that the racing associations are offering that will not allow them to make more than 3% on their signal?

One answer is that for the most part the people running the game are disonsaurs. (And, so are many of the people playing the game! :) ) Resistance to change and lack of innovation are embedded in their DNA structures. I don't have a lot of warm feelings for Frank Stronach, but at least he has tried to bring change to the game and has been willing to take on the restrictive legislative and bureaucratic webs that are stifling progress.

[Pony Up FAQ]

I work for Pony up Bet....I can tell you that we have owned Wyoming Downs since 1998. Pony up Bet is fully regulated by the Wyoming Pari Mutuel Commission. We spent 2 years researching the internet/telephone market and found that what is most important to our business is our CUSTOMER! We took a different "road" than the other internet/telephone companies. We offer rebates out of our own pocket. The tracks that we carry have to agree to our cash back program. If we do not offer a rebate it is because the track has said we can't. We pay the state and our horsemen a percentage of what we make. As you all know...the horse racing business is not what it used to be. We want to bring back the excitement of horse racing!

[andicap]

I went to the Oregon Hub link --- good stuff!
Why was the Racing Channel so off in 2004 from 2003?Everyone else was up.

[sparkywowo]

I started going through the online application and thought the amount of information they wanted from me was more trouble than it was worth:

SSN
Signed Tax Form: Actual not a facsimile
Copy of Driver's License

[rokitman]

And they don't even have an email contact on the site that I could find.