Tracks without banked turns

[Alan Wight]

Anyone know which tracks or turf courses in North America do not have banked turns?

[Doc]

The grass course at Philadelphia isn't banked.

[falconridge]

The bullring (1/2 mile) at Ferndale (California, just south of Eureka, on the Golden State's north coast), which runs its Humboldt County Fair meeting over two weeks in August, isn't banked.

[Valuist]

Sar and Pimlico might be banked but not by much.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Wow! I did not know that. No wonder some miss the turn!

[turfspec]

Saratoga both turf and main track are banked at 4% on turns. That is about the average. Can't put my hands on the info at the moment but if memory serves Pim is 3.5% banking on main track and 4% on turf.

Rob

[Achilles]

I cannot find the link, but I read somewhere that the new Turfway polytrack surface is banked only 2 to 2.5 degrees. That seems to be less than average. If so, I would think that the inside paths would have a big advantage.

[Valuist]

I cannot believe Saratoga is banked about average. Go wide on the turn there and you can forget about winning.

[kenwoodall2]

"Early speed is favored at the turf course at Sheepshead Bay more than a slow beginner, as the trailing
horses usually go very wide on the turns owing to their not being banked the same as they are on
the main courses. While horses do win over the turf course and come from rear positions they
have to be much the best."

[andymays]

Tracks with synthetic surfaces are banked about 40% less on average than a dirt courses of similar dimensions from my experience.

I don't believe any course that goes around turns isn't banked.

[andymays]

The bullring (1/2 mile) at Ferndale (California, just south of Eureka, on the Golden State's north coast), which runs its Humboldt County Fair meeting over two weeks in August, isn't banked.


You should probably double check that. Bullrings are usually banked much more than a typical mile oval. That's how they hold the sharp turns and even then some can't negotiate the turns properly.

[andymays]

I cannot find the link, but I read somewhere that the new Turfway polytrack surface is banked only 2 to 2.5 degrees. That seems to be less than average. If so, I would think that the inside paths would have a big advantage.


That's probably about right. The thing is that when synthetic surfaces came out they were designed to be slow and deep so less banking was OK. What happened is that many synthetic courses were made faster after people comlained about the slow times and the lack of wire to wire winners. Now we have fairly fast sythetic courses that aren't banked enough.

[gm10]

Tracks with synthetic surfaces are banked about 40% less on average than a dirt courses of similar dimensions from my experience.

I don't believe any course that goes around turns isn't banked.

That is quite a revelation. Can you back that up?

[andymays]

That is quite a revelation. Can you back that up?

We've talked about this before in the endless synthetic threads but I'm starting to believe you only read what you write.

Del Mar was about 5% when it was dirt and now it's about 3%.

Each track is different but I'm guessing it's anywhere from 20% to 40% less on synthetic surfaces.

[cj]

Keeneland definitely removed some banking when going to synthetics.

[andymays]

Keeneland definitely removed some banking when going to synthetics.


Let me play gm10. :)

"That is quite a revelation. Can you back that up?" :rolleyes: :D

It is common knowledge for anyone that has followed racing and the advent of synthetic surfaces that the turns are banked less.

That's also why you see more Jockeys sittin chilly till they straighten out in the stretch. It's harder to move on the turns.

[cj]

I found this in an article about the new surface at Keeneland:

The renovations to the racetrack itself included a complete reconfiguration of the main racing oval, plus the installation of new safety rails. Nicholson said that the difference between the highest and lowest point on the track had previously been nine feet; the difference is now a
half-inch, Nicholson said.

[andymays]

I found this in an article about the new surface at Keeneland:


I guess he can back that up gm10. But here's the thing, the same subject will come up in six months and you'll say the same stuff.

And the beat goes on and on and on................ ;)

By the way part of the need for less banking on synthetic is the drainage. Except for Santa Anita. ;)

[gm10]

We've talked about this before in the endless synthetic threads but I'm starting to believe you only read what you write.

Del Mar was about 5% when it was dirt and now it's about 3%.

Each track is different but I'm guessing it's anywhere from 20% to 40% less on synthetic surfaces.

Andy, you should look up 'average'. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I was hoping you had actual data to back up your claim.

[andymays]

Andy, you should look up 'average'. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I was hoping you had actual data to back up your claim.


I don't need data to know what I know. If you do then good for you but do me a favor and get it before you decide to tell me that "that's quite a statement" as if I'm making stuff up.

Good Luck as always.

[gm10]

I found this in an article about the new surface at Keeneland:

The highest difference on many English track has to do with undulations, not banking. Are you sure this quote is about banking?

[gm10]

I don't need data to know what I know. If you do then good for you but do me a favor and get it before you decide to tell me that "that's quite a statement" as if I'm making stuff up.

Good Luck as always.

:mad:
"I know what I know" does not equal "average".

[gm10]

Let me play gm10. :)

"That is quite a revelation. Can you back that up?" :rolleyes: :D

It is common knowledge for anyone that has followed racing and the advent of synthetic surfaces that the turns are banked less.

That's also why you see more Jockeys sittin chilly till they straighten out in the stretch. It's harder to move on the turns.

You can also say that closers have a bigger chance, so that hints at the opposite. I'm not claiming anything here (I was actually hoping to find out), but please don't say that you know the average degree of banking when you don't.

[cj]

The highest difference on many English track has to do with undulations, not banking. Are you sure this quote is about banking?

100%, no, but I don't think there were undulations in the Keeneland course. I have read the banking was greatly reduced, but I wasn't going to spend a lot of time looking for an article.

[andymays]

You can also say that closers have a bigger chance, so that hints at the opposite. I'm not claiming anything here (I was actually hoping to find out), but please don't say that you know the average degree of banking when you don't.


Time to go back to the Zenyatta thread. You have work to do over there. It's about the last eithgh for Rail Trip vs. the last eights for Zenyatta. ;)

[andymays]

100%, no, but I don't think there were undulations in the Keeneland course. I have read the banking was greatly reduced, but I wasn't going to spend a lot of time looking for an article.


I spent about a half hour on the phone with Mr. Pendergast (I think it was Pendergast but I don't have the data ;) ) from Polytrack last year and asked him about banking and other stuff. He was a nice guy even though we didn't agree on much.

[gm10]

100%, no, but I don't think there were undulations in the Keeneland course. I have read the banking was greatly reduced, but I wasn't going to spend a lot of time looking for an article.

Sure but this is just misleading to post it in this context. Impossible to know what it meant.

[cj]

Sure but this is just misleading to post it in this context. Impossible to know what it meant.

Unless, of course, you already know the Keeneland DIRT track had no undulations. Find me a single US dirt course that has "undulations". In any case it doesn't matter...believe me or don't, I don't care. You can use google as well as I can. I was just trying to pass on what I know.

[gm10]

Unless, of course, you already know the Keeneland DIRT track had no undulations. Find me a single US dirt course that has "undulations". In any case it doesn't matter...believe me or don't, I don't care. You can use google as well as I can. I was just trying to pass on what I know.

OK let me rephrase it. How do you know that the highest difference occurs across the width at some fixed point along the track? My money would be on the quote regarding two separate points along the length.

I just don't see it. Nine feet difference? How wide is the Keeneland track anyway? 50 feet? That would be an angle of 9/50 or almost 20 degrees wouldn't it?

[Grits]

OK let me rephrase it. How do you know that the highest difference occurs across the width at some fixed point along the track? My money would be on the quote regarding two separate points along the length.

I just don't see it. Nine feet difference? How wide is the Keeneland track anyway? 50 feet? That would be an angle of 9/50 or almost 20 degrees wouldn't it?


GM, how much time have you spent at Keeneland Racecourse? Some of us, a lot; yourself, maybe not. If you've been sorting champions from tomato cans only since 2007 one can understand why you might not be as aware of the problems contained in Keeneland's notorious dirt surface inside bias and the track's configuration prior to its installation of poly in 2006.

The only undulating European-like thoroughbred racecourse of any kind in this country is the old Dueling Grounds, or as its been known for many years now, Kentucky Downs. Of course, its turf. The only other Euro like course, is the Colonial Downs Secretariat Course, it being so, due to its tremendous width. Wider than any other in the nation.

During the fall meet at Keeneland, look for runners that have had a race over the rolling KD course during its running about a month prior to Keeneland's opening. One can catch some fine prices when they go off on the Keeneland turf or poly, dismissed by those not familiar with KD. It happens.

If you believe Nicholson is implying that there's a 9 foot rise in his newly built racecourse, one could imagine, most likely, you'd lose your money.

[Trotman]

Woodbine's 1 mile polytrack is banked 6% on the turns
and the 1 1/2 mile E.P. Taylor turf course is banked 4%.

[proximity]

You should probably double check that. Bullrings are usually banked much more than a typical mile oval. That's how they hold the sharp turns and even then some can't negotiate the turns properly.

don't have any percentages but timonium is a bullring that seems extremely banked to me.

[gm10]

GM, how much time have you spent at Keeneland Racecourse? Some of us, a lot; yourself, maybe not. If you've been sorting champions from tomato cans only since 2007 one can understand why you might not be as aware of the problems contained in Keeneland's notorious dirt surface inside bias and the track's configuration prior to its installation of poly in 2006.

The only undulating European-like thoroughbred racecourse of any kind in this country is the old Dueling Grounds, or as its been known for many years now, Kentucky Downs. Of course, its turf. The only other Euro like course, is the Colonial Downs Secretariat Course, it being so, due to its tremendous width. Wider than any other in the nation.

During the fall meet at Keeneland, look for runners that have had a race over the rolling KD course during its running about a month prior to Keeneland's opening. One can catch some fine prices when they go off on the Keeneland turf or poly, dismissed by those not familiar with KD. It happens.

If you believe Nicholson is implying that there's a 9 foot rise in his newly built racecourse, one could imagine, most likely, you'd lose your money.

Yes yes, undulating was not the right term to use, it took the debate in the wrong direction. And I am fully aware of Keeneland's previous biases. Sinister Minister ... what a champ.

Anyway, I was unable to detect your view on the banking of synthetic surfaces. What exactly are you saying wrt that? Also, I'm not sure why you would have me think that there was a 9 foot rise in the new surface. Unless I'm missing something, that is a weird assumption to make. What made you think that?

[Grits]

GM, I don't pay attention to synthetic surfaces, unless they happen to be running the Breeders' Cup on them; or like Sunday, Zenyatta is running on them.

Cj gave you an answer about Keeneland, I was puzzled by your response with the mentio of "two separate points along the length."

Carry on.

[Tom]

So how does one go about incorporating the degree of banked into handicapping? What value is there in knowing?

[kenwoodall2]

So how does one go about incorporating the degree of banked into handicapping? What value is there in knowing?
If the horse goes too wide due to low turn, or a closer can overtake early speed who is close to the rail due to a boomerang effect, I want to know! I still want to know why outside gainers on the turn seem to have more momentum going out of a turn. Also, I read that a horse going wider on a turn can run faster than a horse on a tighter inside lane. Of course, do not tell Borel that ! He may think wider paths are more crowded!! It seems to me wheeled athletes on banked (roller derby, cycling, etc) turns can build speed coming out of a turn. And it works when I put a stopwatch to cars on the children's hot wheels track!! I was wondering because I read Pittsburh Phill about grass turns and horses going tooo wide on a track with less banking. "Early speed does better at The turf course at Sheepshead Bay than a slow beginner, as the trailing horses usually go very wide on the turns owing to their not being banked the same as they are on
the main courses. While horses do win over the turf course and come from rear positions they
have to be much the best." (I just finished his whole book!)
Once a year I wish I had a degree in Physics!!

[Tom]

Do you get the value of knowing what happens or why it happens?
If you know horse have to stay on the rail, do yo need to know why?
Knowing one track is banked twice as much as another - how do you use that knowledge?

I have no idea why late runners do better on turf,nor do I care. As long as I know they do. And when they don't have to.

[kenwoodall2]

Do you get the value of knowing what happens or why it happens?
If you know horse have to stay on the rail, do yo need to know why?
Knowing one track is banked twice as much as another - how do you use that knowledge?

I have no idea why late runners do better on turf,nor do I care. As long as I know they do. And when they don't have to.
Well, I'm just looking for angles, like why a non-EP can win going wide on a track but not another track or another type surface; maybe I could use that info to predict if the closer will flatten out or not? Seems like that could help in predicting the trip.

[gm10]

GM, I don't pay attention to synthetic surfaces, unless they happen to be running the Breeders' Cup on them; or like Sunday, Zenyatta is running on them.

Cj gave you an answer about Keeneland, I was puzzled by your response with the mentio of "two separate points along the length."

Carry on.

Carry on with what?

[gm10]

If the horse goes too wide due to low turn, or a closer can overtake early speed who is close to the rail due to a boomerang effect, I want to know! I still want to know why outside gainers on the turn seem to have more momentum going out of a turn. Also, I read that a horse going wider on a turn can run faster than a horse on a tighter inside lane. Of course, do not tell Borel that ! He may think wider paths are more crowded!! It seems to me wheeled athletes on banked (roller derby, cycling, etc) turns can build speed coming out of a turn. And it works when I put a stopwatch to cars on the children's hot wheels track!! I was wondering because I read Pittsburh Phill about grass turns and horses going tooo wide on a track with less banking. "Early speed does better at The turf course at Sheepshead Bay than a slow beginner, as the trailing horses usually go very wide on the turns owing to their not being banked the same as they are on
the main courses. While horses do win over the turf course and come from rear positions they
have to be much the best." (I just finished his whole book!)
Once a year I wish I had a degree in Physics!!

There is quite a lot of stuff out there to understand how banking helps thhe outside horses. When you google it, look for the effect of banking on nascar race cars .. you'll find more about it and the principle is the same :)