Mountaineer: The Year-Round Mecca of Racing

[sparkywowo]

Living in Central Indiana, and having a day job, I find Mountaineer Park to be a reasonable track to watch and bet for several reasons, here are the pros and cons from my perspective:

Pros:
1) They run at night, five days a week, year round
2) They have a turf course
3) They get close to the 10 horse limit in most fields
4) The purses are good for cheap claimers, and decent otherwise

Cons:
1) As far as I can tell there are only two consistently trustworthy jocks, the rest are crappy, timid or unreliable
2) They do get quite a few ship ins, and, they can be hard to evaluate
3) FORM: cripes, I think this is the holy grail of handicapping today, it can be undecipherable but is often not as bad as it looks
4) Some cheap races are void of absolute eliminations
5) Consistency of the track surface is hard for me to understand, sometimes speed just rules, other times the rail is dead
6) The exotic take is on the high side
7) The camera work isn't so hot before and during the post parade so evaluating body language and warm up is hampered a bit

So, if you have an interest in Mountaineer, why not drop your 2 cents here.
I am going to start making my own speed-pace figures and try to evaluate race shapes so I can judge more accurately from watching the races, and reviewing the charts, the track condition and who ran better/worse than it appears.

[JimG]

You forgot a "pro"...watching Mark (mountainman here on PA) and Nancy do their thing. They talk about each horse, which if you are not a local, can be helpful at times.

Jim

[QuarterCrack]

Mark and Nancy are great. I like that they take the time to say something, anything, about every horse in the field. In addition, I think the camerawork in the paddock is really good at Mountaineer - a lot of time spent showing all the horses. You get better than the "five-second glimpse" (although they could spend more time showing the warmups, I'd say).
I've always felt that Mountaineer puts out one of the better simulcast shows you'll find.

[sparkywowo]

Thanks!
I suppose I should add that I do like Mountaineer, and that most of the cons are really shortcomings in my knowledge base which can be fixed with work.

[Zaf]

MNR is great and presently my favorite circuit. Making speed figures can be tricky. You must be aware of when they winterize the track because it significantly changes the speed of the track. Also I do not like to play off tracks at MNR, I can usually throw all my handicapping out the window. In the winter months there is a tendency for off tracks quite often. I agree with all of the positives listed here. The negatives do not bother me that much. Just keep bringing on those full fields.

ZAFONIC

[cnollfan]

Pro: The trackman comments are more colorful at Mnr than elsewhere, e.g. "wilted."

[Fred]

Con: Mnr does not offer a P4 wager


Freddy

[Buddha]

Con: Mnr does not offer a P4 wager


Freddy


I would like to see a pick4 or two, and possibly more pick 3s, either rolling, or offer like 3 or 4 on the card. unfortunately, the betting menu at mnr hasnt changed for like 6 years.

[JustRalph]

Con: Mnr does not offer a P4 wager
Freddy

now that made me laugh.........me picking 4 races in a row at the Mountain would take a 10k ticket..........

[joeyspicks]

I like Mark and Nancy both. Mark in particular can give some very insightful comments.

[sparkywowo]

The other pro I forgot was the 10 race cards. I don't know how the West Coast Tracks get away with 8 race cards. I like Emerald Downs, but they have these weekday 8 race cards and weekends the races are too far apart, like every 30 minutes on Saturday. Moutaineer gives you 10 and moves 'em right along.

Got Friday's form the other day, card looks bland. Got Saturday's card today, looks quite promising.

Saw a post on another thread (thanks to cnollfan) about the outside bias at Mountaineer, saying the following days were particularly noticeable: Apr 23,24, May 22, Jun 12,13,18, Jul 10,24,25, Aug 7,12,13.

I have also noticed that the minimum payoff seems to be $2.20 at Mountaineer. Earlier in the year (9th race on June 21st) a heavily minus show pool paid $2.20. But, I can't find it in writing anywhere.

[Vegas711]

Mark and Nancy are great. I like that they take the time to say something, anything, about every horse in the field. In addition, I think the camerawork in the paddock is really good at Mountaineer - a lot of time spent showing all the horses. You get better than the "five-second glimpse" (although they could spend more time showing the warmups, I'd say).
I've always felt that Mountaineer puts out one of the better simulcast shows you'll find.

You have got to be kidding?????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Zaf]

I don't know how the West Coast Tracks get away with 8 race cards.

They have no choice / no bloodstock.

10 race cards would produce smaller fields than they have now :eek:

ZAFONIC

[midnight]

I believe that West Virginia has a 10 cent ($2.20 for $2) minimum payout.

[Buddha]

I believe that West Virginia has a 10 cent ($2.20 for $2) minimum payout.

yes, the minimum payout is $2.20. Bridgejumpers can make 10% instead of 5% at the big tracks :)

[ldiatone]

If he says "green stuff" one more time.....
i live 45 mins from the track and it has changed a great deal in the past ten years. Once the slots got in there claiming prices went from 2000$ with a purse of 1500 to what one sees now.

[Zman179]

Mark and Nancy are great. I like that they take the time to say something, anything, about every horse in the field. In addition, I think the camerawork in the paddock is really good at Mountaineer - a lot of time spent showing all the horses. You get better than the "five-second glimpse" (although they could spend more time showing the warmups, I'd say).
I've always felt that Mountaineer puts out one of the better simulcast shows you'll find.

Regardless of what Vegas711 says, I think that you're spot on. Mountaineer definitely has one of the better simulcast presentations, especially pre-race. Mark is very knowledgeable.

[Zaf]

I agree , I enjoy the Mark & Nancy show.

ZAFONIC

[EQUIPACE]

MNR is great and presently my favorite circuit. Making speed figures can be tricky. You must be aware of when they winterize the track because it significantly changes the speed of the track. Also I do not like to play off tracks at MNR, I can usually throw all my handicapping out the window. In the winter months there is a tendency for off tracks quite often. I agree with all of the positives listed here. The negatives do not bother me that much. Just keep bringing on those full fields.

ZAFONIC

Z,
I hope all is going well these days capping with ES. :)
As I mentioned on another thread, I enjoy and play MNR all the time.
You are absolutely right about off tracks! They just drop me for a loop there. :confused:
I always check the weather now before I play. If its off - I'll pass.
When the suface is fast or good I've hit several 1K+ trifectas at the $1 level off of small 6 and 12 dollar bets. The consistant 10 horse fields see to that.

Another con is the Fog!!!
It gets so dense at times that you cant see a thing till they hit mid stretch. Its frustrating to say the least. Not to mention the next time you open the form and look at the missing race fractions or horses positions.
When I see an abundance of these in an upcoming race... No way I'll Play - Pass!

John
~¿o

[QuarterCrack]

Yea I like it a lot. Admittedly, I haven't seen too many tracks' pre-race shows, so maybe it's not that good, but to me it's great. It's way better than Charles Town, for example.

Although I must say, I think Nancy needs to drink some coffee or take some uppers or something sometimes. There's times that she sounds like she's going to fall asleep and roll onto the floor :D :D

[skate]

yeh , i agree that the commentary is very much to my liking.

i was thinking that we the public get so use to these people in general just filling the air with nothing, hence i just tune them out, but i find Mnr. worth listrening to, they are different.

the way they fill their fields also makes sense to me, unlike, gees monmouth, they try to push a field of turffers into a dirt race and i guess they expect you to give her a try.
hey, i can see if they are short of some horses, but that dirt race was a joke.

i figure people put up with this sort, might as well watch a camel race.

back to Mnr.

[Zaf]

Z,
I hope all is going well these days capping with ES. :)
As I mentioned on another thread, I enjoy and play MNR all the time.
You are absolutely right about off tracks! They just drop me for a loop there. :confused:
I always check the weather now before I play. If its off - I'll pass.
When the suface is fast or good I've hit several 1K+ trifectas at the $1 level off of small 6 and 12 dollar bets. The consistant 10 horse fields see to that.

Another con is the Fog!!!
It gets so dense at times that you cant see a thing till they hit mid stretch. Its frustrating to say the least. Not to mention the next time you open the form and look at the missing race fractions or horses positions.
When I see an abundance of these in an upcoming race... No way I'll Play - Pass!

John
~¿o


Hello Equipace,

Yes all is going well on this end. Have been using CJ's program along with Equisim. The FV is the ultimate number cruncher and CJ's performance numbers are the best I've ever seen. I'm a happy camper.

Best,

ZAFONIC

[sparkywowo]

I looked a little more closely at Mountaineer's wagering menu, I never paid much attention to it since I usually bet straight or Exactas, which they have every race.

It is:
1: Ex Tri DD
2: Ex Tri
3: Ex Tri Pic3(345)
4: Ex Tri
5: Ex Tri Spr
6: Ex Tri Pic3(678)
7: Ex Tri
8: Ex Tri
9: Ex Tri DD
10: Ex Tri Spr

Spr=superfecta

This looks pretty reasonable to me, as their big draw is the Trifecta.
I have hit some disappointingly small trifectas there, and find the predictable exactas more lucrative than the predictable trifectas. For me, the best strategy has been not playing many combinations hoping for a bomb, but very few combinations. The huge trifectas usually have a 10-1 or higher shot on top and about the only way to get one there is a costly box of several horses.

I have been keying one horse over two in the exacta, rather than a 2 horse box, to get some value on a short price stick out, and even keying a horse over 2 others in the tri.

For example, if I liked 1 and 2, and 3 was in the running, and 1 was 2-1 and 2 was 5-1, I might play the 2 to win and the 1-2 and 1-3 exactas, rather than box the 1-2.
Similarly if I liked 1,2 and 3, I won't get involved with boxing them in the exacta or trifecta. However, if 1 was a stick out, I would play 1-2-3 and 1-3-2 tris or 1-2 and 1-3 exactas.

Favorite-price-2ndor3rdfavorite trifectas pay pretty good if I get them just about cold, horrible if it took a 4 horse box. A 1-2-3,4 and 1-3,4-2 is only four combinations and sinks the money where it counts, one horse to win and another to hit the board underneath. All the better if I have plenty of confidence in 1 and 2,3,4 aren't so obvious. With this kind of opinion 1-2-All and 1-All-2 is 16 combinations in a 10 horse field. So, for $20 I can play 1-2-All, 1-All-2, 1-2-3,4 and 1-3,4-2, and have a good chance to get back all of a $100 tri or half of a $200 tri, odds of 4-1. With a four horse box, it's $24 to shoot for half of a $100 tri, odds of 1-1 << YUCK!

I generally know that I am more likely to lose because OldSparkPlug woke up and ran third at 50-1 than because I misevaluated 1's winning chances. So, the margin of error is best used including a single bomb in the minor spots on a ticket rather than hedging against a solid pick.

[jeebus1083]

Why does Mountaineer have such a limited wagering menu?

Rolling P3s and one P4 would be a welcome, refreshing addition to a decent PM racing product.

[ralph_the_cat]

Why does Mountaineer have such a limited wagering menu?

Rolling P3s and one P4 would be a welcome, refreshing addition to a decent PM racing product.

The crooks:liar: can make out well the way the wagers are now.... also, The crooks have a hard time fixing anymore than 3 races in a row... :lol:

[Robert Goren]

Mark talks a good game, but Nancy picks more winners. You have to be very alert everyday for track bias. They can change overnight. They are very good with the discs. The bottom claimers vary lot by conditions. A winner in a "nw in a year" can seldom move to "nw of 2 in a year" and win no matter how good a number it puts up. All-in-all if you like cheap horses Mnr is not a bad place to wager.

[jeebus1083]

How do you know the races at the Mountain are fixed? :confused:

The crooks:liar: can make out well the way the wagers are now.... also, The crooks have a hard time fixing anymore than 3 races in a row... :lol:

[theiman]

I wonder how the fields will shape up with Dale Bairds passing. He filled alot of cards with his stable.

Mark and Nancy are the best simo team in the business. Give you more "between the lines" info than anyone else, including whether an impressive performance on paper was aided by a bias or against a weak field.
List to Marks analysis but you dont have to play his picks.

Peter Berry one of the underrated race callers in USA.

The turf course in my mind is a total toss up. The races IMO, dont have form. Horses coming from many classes and the stretch runs are often erratic, not what you expect from turf racing seen at other tracks. Often in turf racing fields are much closer at the finish than dirt races are, probably because of the nature of the race, slow early, bunch turn, sprint home. At the Mountain I often see spread out fields and horses not finishing races strong. I stay away from Mountain turf.

Pick 3 pools are very weak. Probably average $3-5K per pool.
I would stick with the verticles or early or late DD.
Being on the West coast I often play the 2nd half of the Mountain cards after getting home from work.

Mountain probably has one of the lowest percentages of on track handle than any other track I have seen. I often see a total handle for the Mountain of $2M a night but the on track handle often is around $50K. That makes it around 97% of the handle off track. I wonder where the "inside" money comes from?

[mountainman]

Mark and Nancy are the best simo team in the business. Give you more "between the lines" info than anyone else, including whether an impressive performance on paper was aided by a bias or against a weak field.

Thanks very much. The popularity of our show sometimes astounds me. We don't dumb it down, and maybe that's the key. We also assume that the viewer plays his own picks and just wants some additional info. Winners come and winners go. In the end, it's abt the commentary and local perspective we try to provide.

[ralph_the_cat]

I often see a total handle for the Mountain of $2M a night but the on track handle often is around $50K. That makes it around 97% of the handle off track. I wonder where the "inside" money comes from?

I wonder if the 3% is the % bringing in all the money....:rolleyes:

[1GCFAN]

I like the Mark and Nancy commentary and it is fun to watch even if if not betting. On WVA Derby Day I ventured to MTN for the first time in 30 years (It was Waterford the last time I made the three hour treak). Unfortunately, I never cashed a ticket which ties them with my only visits to SA (2000) and Gulf (1974). I had this agreement with the teller: I would give him cash and he would give me little pieces of paper. Then about 20 minutes later we would repeat that activity.

[parshooter]

I would agree with most posters that MNR is a good night alternative -beats betting the buggies. I wish they would add rolling pick 3's as others have indicated. They run a lot of 5 1/2 races which are quite different even from 6 furlong. I have concentrated on turn times and have spotted some lucrative front speed winners. You do have to watch for the bias -it does change from day-day or at least week to week. A Pro might also be their race caller and his pleasant accent and quote of odds as they load.

[Zaf]

I agree, rolling Pick 3's would be awesome ! :ThmbUp: :jump:

Z

[overunder]

Mark and Nancy are great. Nancy makes a great straight woman for Mark.
I really appreciate his sense of humor. Nancy does pick more winners, but her's are usually a little more chalky.I like the orange simulcast screen. Kind of gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I love it when posts 8,9, and 10 start winning. You can usually count on them continuing to prevail for most of the night. Doesn't matter what the horses' forms look like. I wish there were a few more places like Mountaineer.:jump:

[MAGICHORSEMAN]

You can make alot of money if you bet the Mark and Nancy will pick the same horse. Even if they have been off for 10 months. Most of the time they pick the same horse to win even when the majority of the races are 10 horses.

The contest for the drf national handicapping come to almost all the tracks in the US except for WV. There are no contest allowed in WV for horseracing but if you want to be in a poker contest you can do so everyday. I think it is an old law on the books in WV.

If you want to play the 10 cent supers you have to drive to Pittsburgh airport, Wheeling, New Castle,Pa or Scioto Downs in Columbus. ( Scioto is owned by Mountaineer) You cannot play 10 cent supers at Mountaineer while betting other tracks. You have to play dollar combinations while the rest of the country plays 10 cent supers.

There are not pick 4's at Mountaineer. It is really a great bet for the horseplayers. So are the rollling pick 3's.


Life goes on at Mountaineer with no hope for change for the horseplayer.

[Chris Longshot]

Living in Central Indiana, and having a day job, I find Mountaineer Park to be a reasonable track to watch and bet for several reasons, here are the pros and cons from my perspective:

Pros:
1) They run at night, five days a week, year round
2) They have a turf course
3) They get close to the 10 horse limit in most fields
4) The purses are good for cheap claimers, and decent otherwise

Cons:
1) As far as I can tell there are only two consistently trustworthy jocks, the rest are crappy, timid or unreliable
2) They do get quite a few ship ins, and, they can be hard to evaluate
3) FORM: cripes, I think this is the holy grail of handicapping today, it can be undecipherable but is often not as bad as it looks


4) Some cheap races are void of absolute eliminations
5) Consistency of the track surface is hard for me to understand, sometimes speed just rules, other times the rail is dead
6) The exotic take is on the high side
7) The camera work isn't so hot before and during the post parade so evaluating body language and warm up is hampered a bit

So, if you have an interest in Mountaineer, why not drop your 2 cents here.
I am going to start making my own speed-pace figures and try to evaluate race shapes so I can judge more accurately from watching the races, and reviewing the charts, the track condition and who ran better/worse than it appears.



Pros:
1)Outside Deck For Clear Viewing(Sweet In The Summer Brews/HotDog)
2)Trackside Cafe- Chicken Tenders With Fries (Highly Recommended!)
3)Riverfront Marketplace-Hamburgers With Fries/Breakfast Buffet $6
4)Riverfront Sports Bar-Nice Place To Drink Brews After Night Of Losing
5)Big Al's Deli-The Gobbler,Goes Good With Phoenix Greyhound At 2AM
3)Cordial Staff- Especially Mutual Tellers
4)Mountainesque Scenery(Especially Morning Workouts at 8AM)
5)Longshots of course!!!!!!!!!
6)Jockey Silks-for the visually impaired
7)Talented Jockey Colony(Sorry Sparky)
8)No Polytrack/Tapeta
9)Guy At Program Stand At Grande Hotel(Knows His Tennis)
10)Only Competition is Delta/Charlestown/Sam Houston w/Boring Commentary
11)Of Course The Big 3(Mark,Nancy and Peter)


Cons:
1)Turf Racing
2)Off Tracks
3)Track Biases
4)No Dime Superfectas
5)Cancellations- not bad this year
6)High Claiming Races/Alw Races At the End of the Card(Chalky)
7)Tote Board
8)Railbird
9)Poor Ventilation System- Hot In The Betting Area
10)Failure To Race 365 Days a Year lol

Yes Sparky, The Mecca Of Racing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Longshot]

I wonder how the fields will shape up with Dale Bairds passing. He filled alot of cards with his stable.

Mark and Nancy are the best simo team in the business. Give you more "between the lines" info than anyone else, including whether an impressive performance on paper was aided by a bias or against a weak field.
List to Marks analysis but you dont have to play his picks.

Peter Berry one of the underrated race callers in USA.

The turf course in my mind is a total toss up. The races IMO, dont have form. Horses coming from many classes and the stretch runs are often erratic, not what you expect from turf racing seen at other tracks. Often in turf racing fields are much closer at the finish than dirt races are, probably because of the nature of the race, slow early, bunch turn, sprint home. At the Mountain I often see spread out fields and horses not finishing races strong. I stay away from Mountain turf.

Pick 3 pools are very weak. Probably average $3-5K per pool.
I would stick with the verticles or early or late DD.
Being on the West coast I often play the 2nd half of the Mountain cards after getting home from work.

Mountain probably has one of the lowest percentages of on track handle than any other track I have seen. I often see a total handle for the Mountain of $2M a night but the on track handle often is around $50K. That makes it around 97% of the handle off track. I wonder where the "inside" money comes from?

That's Easy It's The Mad Bomber!!!!!!!!! Mark P?

[1GCFAN]

The mailman brought good news from MTR. They say a bus is leaving on Wednesday and Saturday's from Scioto Downs to take you to the Mountain for $25. Scioto is 5 miles from my house and it is about a three hour trip. I guess I will try it out sometime this winter.:)