Is it necessary to know how to read the conditions of a race? Im illiterate

[fishorsechess]

A few days ago I was at a used book store and a guy who was a
teacher of Shakespeare was there. I was dying to ask him : "How do
you read old English" I am having a hard enough time understanding
regular English. He stated they speak in images...guess that's what
made Shakespeare a colorful person. Even the bible I can't read it
because of the type of English its in. The Racing Form has
weird English when they describe the conditions of each race.
Is understanding that stuff really important? I never understood
it. Even though people tell me to read Quinn's Condition Book.
They claim it can help your handicapping by telling you if a horse
was "written" for the race.

[PaceAdvantage]

You are indeed a fascinating character....

[plainolebill]

You are indeed a fascinating character....

I'm certain that he thinks he is.

[mcikey01]

"Is it necessary to know how to read the conditions of a race? Im illiterate"

Oxymoronically speaking, it's absolutely relative....

Depends on whether or not you feel there is "too much ado" about the relationship between handicapping knowledge and wagering success.

Psst....we must run with the same crowd....Some fella once confided in me that "races are sometimes written for certain horses"... I told him, "Oh, yeah, wise guy. Then, how come the horse's name isn't written into the conditions of the race?".

[joeyspicks]

fish : "Is understanding that stuff really important? I never understood
it. ":lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


NOW......I understand your other posts:eek: :D :D

[Overlay]

When I first started seriously studying handicapping around thirty years ago, I had just read a passage from either Tom Ainslie or Bob McKnight where they had talked about making the reading of the race conditions the first thing you do before even looking at the records of the horses. As it happened, the first race I saw in the Form right after that was one at Arlington which had been written for non-winners of a race since a certain date. There was a filly entered named Minnie Riperton (named after the singer)(remember her?) whose last win had been on the exact cutoff date given in the conditions. She won at double-digit odds. I've always remembered that, since it seemed to confirm to me that trainers look for spots like that when placing their horses. I still make a point of checking the conditions just to see if there might be any angles like that at work.

[KingChas]

The Racing Form has
weird English when they describe the conditions of each race.
Is understanding that stuff really important? I never understood
it. Even though people tell me to read Quinn's Condition Book.
They claim it can help your handicapping by telling you if a horse
was "written" for the race.


See Fish when the form started printing they needed something to seperate the races.So they just threw this in as a race divider.Plus it helps them print more pages to keep the cost up.Don't pay it any mind! :liar:

:bang: :lol: :faint: :lol:

[twindouble]

Fish;

Let me put it this way. Would you bet on your high school basketball team agains't the Boston Celtics?

Conditions, Conditions, Conditions! Read them.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sang "Lovin' You".
You will find conditions that match a horse perfectly- matching horses to weird conditions is what secretaries are supposed to do so losers can get into an easy race. I'm waiting for a 3-legged race.
As long as trainers believe 2 lbs off matters for a non-winner of 1 to beat a non-winner of 3 just because the NW3X has not won in 4 months they will keep writing them!
I rarely look at any sentence in conditions that contain the word "since" because I know how to judge a prior win from the PP lines.
You can have a horse with a string of ITM finishes at routes vs. sprinters but not a "win at a mile or more Since".
I do take notice if the conditions end up allowing a horse with any experience at the purse level and distance or recency to be 7 or more lbs. under a fellpw contender without resorting to a bug rider.
Your basic purse/claiming level, distance, at the top should usually be enough to figure if the horse has a shot at winning; if the difference between the horses is a win 2 weeks apart as few months ago the race is too close to call.
If you figure out how much time the race secretary would have to spend trying to write a race for 1 particular $10,000 claimer at the end of a barn who has won 1 of the last 8 races and how to make it look like any other "1 1/16 3up or 6f dirt female" then you are wasting more time being paranoid than the sec' has spent on the whole condition book.
Take a look at some cards and you will; see some weekdays almost all female 3up sprint claimers.
The most weird conditions I see are to make it "since" the meet started and trying to figure out what horses are left at the current track and have not already gone to get a stall at the next meet's track on the circuit.
If anyone runs across a condition of NW2L that allows a horse in that has benn dq'ed from a couple, won MD and 3 or 4 non-counting starter races and a few claimers at less than a mile and is has won total about 8 races that does not count let me know!LOL!

[46zilzal]

horses can't read the conditions: they simply run to their capabilities
conditions are for the humans

[chrisg]

There was a filly entered named Minnie Riperton (named after the singer)(remember her?)

Curtis: Hey you guys know Minnie the Moocher?

Murph: I knew a hooker once named Minnie Mizola?

:cool: :D :jump: :rolleyes:

[KingChas]

You are indeed a fascinating character....

After this question by Fisher.I am thoroughly convinced he is really J. Mullins testing us! :D

[hurrikane]

for the life of me I don't understand what is so confusing about the way conditions are written.

[kingfin66]

Oxymoronically speaking, it's absolutely relative....

Oxymoronically speaking...I love it...

[Steve 'StatMan']

In DRF and some of the other PPS, they've got a summary of most of the conditions. Like the Clm5000n2l for Claiming $5,000 non-winners of 2 lifetime.

Some get more complicated, like a Alw27000n1y which is a $27,000 allowance race for those that have not won under a specific condition within a variable period ranging up to a year or so. Those kind of races it can be very helpful to know what those are. They might be for horses that haven't won in the last 6 months, or perhaps one that hasn't won at allowance level or better in the last 6 months, but could have won any number of claimers or starters.

Of course, if you could read that last paragraph, you're reading is probably find. Trying to interpret the information in those conditions (reading to pick out data and comprehension) are the tougher parts.

Plenty of the conditions have a lot of stuff about assigning weights. Since I am one who doesn't worry much about weight, I ignore all that stuff. I've know that to throw several of my racing friends off when they try to read it. That part of the conditions really means more for the trainers who are entering their horses in the race.

[Overlay]

If you figure out how much time the race secretary would have to spend trying to write a race for 1 particular $10,000 claimer at the end of a barn who has won 1 of the last 8 races and how to make it look like any other "1 1/16 3up or 6f dirt female" then you are wasting more time being paranoid than the sec' has spent on the whole condition book.

I'm not that paranoid (yet)! I realize the racing secretary has the unenviable task of trying to card races that will provide plausible spots for as many of the horses on the grounds as possible. I was assuming that, in the case of the example I cited, the trainer was taking advantage of a fortunate coincidence between the "since" date in the conditions, and the recent race dates, condition, and class level of that particular filly -- not that the race conditions were specifically written with her in mind. (Or am I being naive?)

[joeyspicks]

After this question by Fisher.I am thoroughly convinced he is really J. Mullins testing us! :D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I really think we need a new icon for Fishers posts ......... WTFIFTA :lol:

[mcikey01]

Overlay:

"Was assuming that, in the case of the example I cited, the trainer was taking advantage of a fortunate coincidence between the "since" date in the conditions, and the recent race dates, condition, and class level of that particular filly -- not that the race conditions were specifically written with her in mind. (Or am I being naive?)"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're not naive, you just have to widen your field of vision when reading between the race conditions/past performance lines and ask, in select situations," Why is this horse in today's race ?"

For example, when it comes to classified allowance races that have graded stakes winners in the field, look at the race conditions and look at the PP for the "superstar" of the field...Sometimes the trainers/owners of a "Big" horse who is coming off a significant layoff, whisper very loudly to the Racing Secretary that their horse "needs a race"...And, sometimes, despite the seeming inferiority of the rest of the field, the "superstar" of the field "underperforms" and a nice fat mutuel awaits those who sense an upset...Could be the horse was short of conditioning or the trainer has other "questions" about the horse that only a test drive in competitive racing can answer.

[socantra]

Reading the 'wierd' English in the conditions is no more important than reading the 'wierd' English in a legal contract before you sign it.

socantra...

[Vegas711]

horses can't read the conditions: they simply run to their capabilities
conditions are for the humans

That is becouse they don't have the $ 5 to buy the form.

[Overlay]

Sometimes the trainers/owners of a "Big" horse who is coming off a significant layoff, whisper very loudly to the Racing Secretary that their horse "needs a race"...And, sometimes, despite the seeming inferiority of the rest of the field, the "superstar" of the field "underperforms" and a nice fat mutuel awaits those who sense an upset...Could be the horse was short of conditioning or the trainer has other "questions" about the horse that only a test drive in competitive racing can answer.

Thanks for the input. I'm always leery of any horse (no matter how great its apparent class edge) coming back from a layoff like that. I've found that, while they may indeed be the most likely winner, they're very seldom worth a bet at the odds they end up going off at. There are usually just too many chances of a legitimate upset (aside from any reading of the stable's intent).

[LARRY GEORGE]

JAMES QUINN WROTE A COUPLE OF GOOD BOOKS ON CLASS AND CONDITIONS
CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAMES OF THEM

[fishorsechess]

Reading the 'wierd' English in the conditions is no more important than reading the 'wierd' English in a legal contract before you sign it.

socantra...


An attorney told me legal writing is made difficult to understand so
the layman can't understand and the attorneys can understand it.
Keeps attorneys in business and keeps them higher up on the totem pole
in society.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I just used the word "paranoid" to point out that in any 1 meet, of the 1200-1500 horses stabled there or running there, there are bound to be more than 1 who has not won during the meet, was hurt or dq'ed or cannot race often or only win after a few days of the better horses at that purse level have already won and would be too soon to race back.
If I am correct in Handicap races are wieghts assignned strictly on how the horses are supposed to be; Allowances and claiming races are races the owners do not pay to get into, and conditions and weights are to encourage more entries. Otherwise there is no reason to have special conditions for claimers like NW because that is what the claiming price is supposed to do!
The special conditions are in there to get trainers to stop complaining about their horses losing to the racing secretary, because trainers I imagine are ther biggest believers in the urban legend that each lb. put on a horses matters all the time. If they want to stick a horse who has not won in ages at the wrong distance and level to get a couple of lbs. off, let them! Beats writing one more race that will not fill! (On second thought, maybe it is the bigshot owner who believes carrying .3% of the horse's weight extra matters!LOL!
Especially written for the horse- I can see horses entered where it really seems that way- and maybe it does happen- but often I see where 2 horses are a very close match to getting in under the wire.
Call me crazy, but I think the condition book would matter more early in a meet, because the secretary is probably a lot more limited later by accomidating the stragglers.
Has anyone here done a study of the difference in conditions early and late in a meet? do short meets have less strict and long conditions?

[Overlay]

Overlay- no offense!

No offense taken! (I should have added an "LOL" along with that first sentence in my response!) I appreciate your comments.

[mcikey01]

JAMES QUINN WROTE A COUPLE OF GOOD BOOKS ON CLASS AND CONDITIONS
CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAMES OF THEM

"The Handicappper's Condition Book" and "Class of the Field" are two that I recall.

[parlay]

if a horse is running in a 5knw1y this can mean the calander year or it can mean 12 months. Huge difference. At the cheap tracks this is a major move in class.
Knowing the true conditions of a RACE IS CRITICAL TO EVALUATING ITS PERTINENCE

[JackS]

Yesterday at Calder, the feature race a Stks with $40k added for Florida breds contained one horse that was a Kentucky bred who was also the 1-5 favorite. He lost to a Fla. bred.

[BIG RED]

To answer the original question, yes. Sometimes you come across a race where only one horse sticks out big time, jump. Of course that has a lot to do with the trainer, and some are very good at it.

[twindouble]

BigRed; I'm just hanging it until my PP's finish printing for tomorrow, no hong kong for me or aus. Went to the war room to close out. Catch you tomorrow. Doc will be happy tomorrow, he had leave before the 10th., had the DD.

[BIG RED]

Sounds good, just dropping by myself, sleep is in order.

[hurrikane]

An attorney told me legal writing is made difficult to understand so
the layman can't understand and the attorneys can understand it.
Keeps attorneys in business and keeps them higher up on the totem pole
in society.

This attorney is an idiot. Legal writting isn't difficult. It is precise. Most people do not talk in precise terms. In contract law it must be. Any ambiguity costs money..and lots of it.

Do you have any thoughts that are your own?

[traveler]

Hey Fish,
Remember, don't let the fact's confuse you, just ignore them. I can only hope you are betting(if you bet) at the minor tracks.

[oddswizard]

Indeed racing secretarys do write race conditions for certain horses. What happens is the racing secretary is looking to fill races. So he will ask certain trainers to enter a horse to fill the race. Some trainers will do this in order to help fill the race. In return, the racing secretary will agree with the trainer to write a race in the future for the trainer. Happens all the time but unless we know what is happening on the backside we will never know it.

Now lets discuss the subject of racing conditions. Quinn's book is great about learning about racing conditions. However, it will take a real expert to understand the conditions. If you want to win at the races there is a better and far easier way to reading the conditions. Many handicappers may disagree but the facts will prove that THE DISTANCE OF THE RACE is the only
condition you need. Example: A 100 yard sprinter cannot compete at a mile in the Olympics and vice versa. Using this logic sprint horses cannot compete at distances of over 1 mile. By a like token a distance horse has no chance in a sprint race. The distance of the race is the key to picking winners, not the various conditions of each race.

[kenwoodallpromos]

How about not winning over a certain amount purse?
Is that to try to equalize the blur of some classes of races like opional claimers?

[BIG RED]

Indeed racing secretarys do write race conditions for certain horses. What happens is the racing secretary is looking to fill races. So he will ask certain trainers to enter a horse to fill the race. Some trainers will do this in order to help fill the race. In return, the racing secretary will agree with the trainer to write a race in the future for the trainer. Happens all the time but unless we know what is happening on the backside we will never know it.

Now lets discuss the subject of racing conditions. Quinn's book is great about learning about racing conditions. However, it will take a real expert to understand the conditions. If you want to win at the races there is a better and far easier way to reading the conditions. Many handicappers may disagree but the facts will prove that THE DISTANCE OF THE RACE is the only
condition you need. Example: A 100 yard sprinter cannot compete at a mile in the Olympics and vice versa. Using this logic sprint horses cannot compete at distances of over 1 mile. By a like token a distance horse has no chance in a sprint race. The distance of the race is the key to picking winners, not the various conditions of each race.

So, you are telling me to chuck all routers in sprints, and sprinters in routes?

Or, I guess you are saying the stats state a high % of these fail, correct? Just asking.

[takeout]

if a horse is running in a 5knw1y this can mean the calander year or it can mean 12 months. Huge difference. At the cheap tracks this is a major move in class.
Knowing the true conditions of a RACE IS CRITICAL TO EVALUATING ITS PERTINENCE
So true. The “1y” part of it can mean anything from 1 month to 12. It’s a DRF catchall (only found in their pps) that I’ve griped about before. There are things I like about their pps but that is certainly not one of them. This catchall abbreviation is also used in the result charts in their paper with no further explanation. Working from the charts in the paper there is NO WAY to tell what the true conditions of those types of races actually were! Depending on what conditions the Secretary at your track happens to be writing at the time, there can be sometimes meaningful class differences within the same claiming prices as pointed out in the Davidowitz book of long ago. I remain floored that with all of their improvements they leave this basic information defect unfixed.

[oddswizard]

The answer is yes. However there are exceptions. For instance a sprinter that is a lone speed front runner has a good chance of beating distance horses. If a route horse flashes front speed in a route race that is equal or better than the sprint fractions then that horse has a shot in a sprint. These exceptions do win, but not often.

[toetoe]

Of course sometimes a race is written for one horse. Absolutely. But he may be illiterate, watching t-v, etc. It's important for filling races other than the same old maiden-claimers. Sometimes it's a perfectly written prep. I can't recall the conditions, but in 1984, Wild Again ran in allowance prep on turf and lost to Pet's Dude. PET'S DUDE! Next race for WA was a win in the BC Classic.