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cj
07-14-2005, 04:02 PM
The more races I watch, and trust me, I watch WAY too many, the worst non-obvious bad trip in racing that I see has got to be "between horses" for any extended period. Horses just seem to hate to have horses on both sides and run like total crap many times with this trip. I'm not talking any steadying or checking either.

Anyone else notice this, or am I crazy (or both :) ?)

GeTydOn
07-14-2005, 04:15 PM
I don't disagree. Maybe it's an intimidating place to be for most horses?? Call me crazy - but I hate when driving I have a car on either side of me and feel even more uneasy when you add a tailgater on my ass.

So with the idea that between horses is probably the worst place to be, this brings on the question:

Where is the best place for a horse to race? (in general, of course)
Inside saving ground or outside of the pack?
Gut reaction might say inside - but many horses seem intimidated with that.
Is going outside and wide truely best??

twindouble
07-14-2005, 04:44 PM
The best good place to be is on the lead contoling the pace picking the path that that the horse can deal with according to the conditions of the track, jocks got intructions from the trainer and they both can read the racing form. With that in mind it would vary from horse to horse depending on his running stye and how competive he is in the race. All out speed duels can put any horse to the test, inside, between or outside. I would say some horses are intimidated being on the rail in a speed duel or inbetween but less likely on the outside. Another factor is the whip and how it's used in tight quarters, jocks know horses can shy so it's part of their strategy to use the whip to their advantage. As handicappers we don't know the personality of each horse but we can see on the form if a horse hangs, quits when challenged or is the bull dog that just won't quit. As you all know, some just pack it in when headed.

So, in real tight quarters, I would give the edge to the outside horse, in a competive race.

Valuist
07-14-2005, 05:38 PM
I think between horses is worst of all in sprints, and worse in dirt routes than turf. Must be something about an all out drive that the close quarters is a bit intimidating for both horse and rider. It seems like when you see a sprint and 3 horses are battling head to head, the middle horse never wins or even is the duel survivor. I do see them win on the turf, however.

I think the most misunderstood trip is the "behind a wall of horses trip" where the announcer usually says the horse has nowhere to go. Yet the horse sees traffic in front of it so he naturally slows down without having to be checked, and when the hole opens up, they often win.

twindouble
07-14-2005, 05:53 PM
I think between horses is worst of all in sprints, and worse in dirt routes than turf. Must be something about an all out drive that the close quarters is a bit intimidating for both horse and rider. It seems like when you see a sprint and 3 horses are battling head to head, the middle horse never wins or even is the duel survivor. I do see them win on the turf, however.

I think the most misunderstood trip is the "behind a wall of horses trip" where the announcer usually says the horse has nowhere to go. Yet the horse sees traffic in front of it so he naturally slows down without having to be checked, and when the hole opens up, they often win.

Yes, you can never lose sight of the fact that horses have a mind of their own and some have the heart to deal with adverse circumstances. They are incredible animals that's for sure.

joeyspicks
07-15-2005, 06:52 AM
You are right CJ. I hate seeing "my" horse between horses for any length of time. When they get stuck in that postion for any length of time...they seem to always fade in the stretch.:bang:

Turfday
07-15-2005, 02:07 PM
CJ... I think what you say is generally true, especially with the cheaper horses.

I think your point could also be made for some horses that are down on the inside, close to the rail and have a horse just outside them. They are, in essence, "between horses" as well.

It would also be interesting, albeit impossible, to figure out if the "between horses" theory being a inconspicious bad trip also holds true for horse that are caught between horses BUT wearing full blinkers and therefor can only see down the track, but not to either side.

Many years ago, Sandy Hawley was riding in Southern California and I was hosting a popular weekly horse racing TV show called, "Handicapper's Report." Sandy was famed for taking his mounts wide. He told me directly that the reason he did so was that horses prefer to race outside of other horses. Made perfect sense except to the Sheet makers, who base their numbers in part on ground loss.

cj
07-15-2005, 02:10 PM
Horses on the rail don't seem to do quite as bad, especially if they can keep there nose in front, or at least even.

andicap
07-15-2005, 03:18 PM
In the 1990s Joe Colville wrote about this subject extensively in Mark Cramer's C&O report. Colville positied exactly the same thing -- that being between horses was a terrible trip that most handicappers ignored.

He called his style "positional handicapping" and somewhere in the morass of papers I have in my basement is one of his articles on the subject.

He said it intimidates a lot of horses.

Think of it yourself. Do you prefer fitting in the middle seat of airplanes, trains and cars or on the outside? Do you prefer the aisle (outside) or the window (the "rail")?

kenwoodallpromos
07-15-2005, 03:27 PM
Sounds like horses do not like tight spaces (like going into the gate) for fear of being jostled. They probably prefer the outside because they know they will be making a left hand turn. When the racing is clockwise, do horses prefer the outside or just do not like other horses on their right side? Is there a difference on different sized tracks (turns)?

twindouble
07-15-2005, 05:48 PM
Sounds like horses do not like tight spaces (like going into the gate) for fear of being jostled. They probably prefer the outside because they know they will be making a left hand turn. When the racing is clockwise, do horses prefer the outside or just do not like other horses on their right side? Is there a difference on different sized tracks (turns)?

Well, like a said, horses have their own personallity with different quirks, good trainers get to know their stock and apply what ever is necessary to over come bad habits or hang ups, with equipment as well as you know. I would think understanding the nature of the beast is the first step in becoming a trainer. What amazing to me is how obediant most can be once they learn the ropes and just run thier hearts out. Racing actually goes counter to their herding instincts and who's the boss.

GMB@BP
07-15-2005, 07:33 PM
The more races I watch, and trust me, I watch WAY too many, the worst non-obvious bad trip in racing that I see has got to be "between horses" for any extended period. Horses just seem to hate to have horses on both sides and run like total crap many times with this trip. I'm not talking any steadying or checking either.

Anyone else notice this, or am I crazy (or both :) ?)

you are not crazy, and just another reason why a horse in the 3 path does not always get a worse trip then a horse in the two path. Our friend Jerry laughed at me when I suggested the same thing, he said, well that theory is not quantitative......how about watching a race from time to time, its obvious to me horses on the inside in dirt races when other 1000 pound animals are around them can be unconfortable.

toetoe
07-15-2005, 08:31 PM
For some reason, being on the rail with horses on one's right is not the same thing, wouldn't you agree? That's actually a good trip, if the horse is talented and sane.

Skanoochies
07-15-2005, 09:01 PM
I think this really shows up with 2 year olds, and lightly raced 3 and 4 year olds. Older campaigners have probably been in that situation several times and handle it much better. I like betting young horse who were "between horses" and showed some grit for a while then backed off. They make good bets to come back on.

classhandicapper
07-15-2005, 11:20 PM
Maybe one key might be if you are between horses/on the rail and can't keep your position.

I think jocks/horses tend to get a little intimidated when they are between horses and the horse inside is determined to hold his position and the horse outside seems determined to get the lead and puts a head in front. They tend to ease back when it gets tight. If the horse is a speed horse, it can be even worse. Some won't recover.

The same thing often happens on the rail. If it gets tight in there and the horse outside refuses to back off a little and is taking the lead, the jock/horse will tend to back off - which again can spell trouble (especially for a speed horse).

Horses on the outside have the most freedom because the jock has room to move out or lay just off without being in an uncomfortable positon. The downside of course is the grouind lost, but I've always felt that lost ground is somewhat overrated unless the pace is also fast and the horse is being used hard to stay even with the inside horses.

classhandicapper
07-15-2005, 11:24 PM
"I think this really shows up with 2 year olds"

I agree with this. I think a lot of 2YOs don't like the inside post position and rail trip when they are gettign squeezed a little.

Tom
07-15-2005, 11:36 PM
In one of his seminars at Finger Lakes, Mark Hopkins spoke about this as a built in excuse at the thumb. The track heavily favored inside speed and he would see horses in replay that were between horses, in the middle of the track and called it double trouble. To this day, I love to find horses coming from this kind of trip and getting inside today.

BIG RED
07-16-2005, 04:06 AM
Anyone else notice this, or am I crazy (or both :) ?)

BOTH :lol: :lol:

Hosshead
07-16-2005, 07:34 AM
Maybe one key might be if you are between horses/on the rail and can't keep your position.

Horses on the outside have the most freedom because the jock has room to move out or lay just off without being in an uncomfortable positon.
This is where the experienced jockey's skill comes into play. If he's on the outside horse, on the turn, he'll often urge his horse to move up just enough to get a neck in front on the turn. Knowing that the jockey on the inside horse will have to keep his mount from drifting wide (and into) the leader. So the jock on the inside has to "let up" a little, so not to drift into the outside horse. This small momentum check, (which is really not a check, but a let up in urging), on the inside horse, is often enough to let the outside horse stay in front all the way to the wire, because the inside horse now has to PASS, to win.

Of course if one has a definite class advantage, it doesn't matter.
And if there's a strong inside bias, then that's something else.
And this example isn't really about "between" horses. Except that the Inside Horse is "between" a Horse (on the right) and a Rail.
I've talked to jockeys that were of the opinion that the (Big White) Rail can be intimidating (to various degrees) to a lot of horses, and that most horses would rather be "Off the Rail". (as Sandy Hawley said) Which is why some of the better jockeys , even though they're on the inside, will steer their mount slightly away from the rail (if they can), and give their horse some room on the left. This also gives him some leeway (not to let up urging), just in case his horse doesn't change leads in the stretch, and starts drifting in, towards the rail. The more "Room To Move" - the better.

Valuist
07-16-2005, 11:04 AM
Its even more bizarre how the Europeans race, with extremely wide courses, they choose to race in tight packs. But maybe the slower pace dissipates the intimidation factor.

linrom1
07-16-2005, 02:01 PM
Any horse that Santos is on.

Figman
07-16-2005, 02:27 PM
Santos was just great and very personable in his interview with Mary Ryan at the Belmont Park Paddock Club today. He admitted to making some mistakes and giving some bad rides and said it is not as easy as it looks to ride races especially horses that have traits you are not familiar with.

He also said he expects EXTERIOR to race very, very well in today's Bowling Green (Belmont 8th) now that he has gotten to know what to expect from this particular horse. He thinks a big improvement is in store today.

Mary Ryan, a horsewoman and thoroughbred owner, does a great job in these Belmont Park weekend interviews. She is also the commentator at the Breakfasts at Saratoga during their six-week meeting. She's a gem in the media that never gets much attention.

cj
07-16-2005, 05:35 PM
He also said he expects EXTERIOR to race very, very well in today's Bowling Green (Belmont 8th) now that he has gotten to know what to expect from this particular horse. He thinks a big improvement is in store today.



So, he can't handicap either, eh? :lol: