Scott Lake

[sq764]

I was watching an interview of Scott Lake on the Delaware Park replay show last night and he said he trains 185 horses!! That is amazing. I realize he has assistant trainers at Delaware, Philly, Belmont and Pimlico, but that is still amazing..

[bdhsheets]

:cool: I'm guessing he has large holdings in pharmaceutical companies. ;-)

[so.cal.fan]

You got that right, Sheets!
It's tough enough to handicap without having to "factor" in these "amazing" trainers.

[sq764]

You mean 30% winners racing at 4 tracks, 10 horses at each track per week is a little high??? :-)

[entropy]

i know very little about american racing but from my limited reading it seems patently obvious that scott lake plus the other trainers used by rick englander are using drugs. :mad: :o :mad:

http://www.asianracing.nu/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000006&p=

[PaceAdvantage]

Patently obvious??? To who??

Serious allegations should be backed up with SERIOUS proof!!!



==PA

[bdhsheets]

Originally posted by entropy
i know very little about american racing but from my limited reading it seems patently obvious that scott lake plus the other trainers used by rick englander are using drugs. :mad: :o :mad:

http://www.asianracing.nu/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000006&p=

Thanks for the link, a fun read.

'sheets

[Show Me the Wire]

Maybe Joe doesn't understand how lasix works. It is blanket statements and assumptions made by supposedly reputable sources that help keep the public from embracing racing. I do not doubt some trainers use additives, but to make a blanket statement the only reason lasix is used is to hide another performance enhancing drug is irresponsible.

For your information Joe lasix does effect performance primarily because the horse loses 8 to 10 percent of its body weight while retaining its muscle and allows the animal to process oxygen more effeciently.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

In a world beset with man made dangers, it is frequently safer to understand than to experience.

[smf]

Originally posted by entropy
i know very little about american racing but from my limited reading it seems patently obvious that scott lake plus the other trainers used by rick englander are using drugs. :mad: :o :mad:

http://www.asianracing.nu/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000006&p=

Ok entropy, I'll play.

Steve Asmussen, Mike Pino and Junior Wright all train for Englander as well. Where's your proof that they "drug" horses?

[entropy]

did i mention "proof"?? that would be a bit hard from about 10,000 miles away. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

http://www.asianracing.nu/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000012&p=

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by entropy
did i mention "proof"?? that would be a bit hard from about 10,000 miles away. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:



Talk isn't very difficult from 10,000 miles away, is it?

[sq764]

Remember, we live in America, where proof is never necessarry, assumption and conjecture are plenty to get people believing..

[hurrikane]

I never understand why, if a trainer is winning 30% of his races, he must be cheating.

Frankly I would be more suspicious of the guy who goes 45 -1, he's hungry, desparate, and does'nt have much to lose. Now that would be the guy more apt to use the needle!

[so.cal.fan]

Sheets:
Has anyone ever done stats on the sheets numbers of horses trained by guys who improve a horse they claim, on a regular basis, say from am 11 to a 7 in a couple of weeks?
I don't have access to sheets, but we notice it in the Beyer numbers here, often. A hot trainer will improve a horses Beyer 15 or 20 points! Most, including trainers, suspect they are getting a bit of help.
I don't focus on it much in my handicapping, just observe it. It is interesting.

Richard Englander- Nick Canani trains for him here, and Nick has been a bit cold of late.

I think most of the hot and cold streaks just happen, like they do with us. It is not good to become paranoid about it.

[smf]

so cal fan,

I agree w/ you. It's a waste of time worrying about drugs and such. It's our job to find out who can win, who can't. Also, good one w/ the hot and cold thing. Never seen a trainer that didn't run cold at some point.

As far as the sheets goes, I've read on some board that Cole Norman's claims run big after being claimed, therefore he's using juice on his stock. This is the same paranoid garbage you read from folks that never see a paddock (in person). Norman is always hanging around the paddock looking at horses in claiming races. Always looking for a steal.

Compare that to other trainers here that hit the exit as soon as their runners run their race, or they head up to the 4th floor to get in the airconditioned confines of the "10% win trainer club". Simply put, he may use drugs, he may not. FACT= Cole Norman wins more than anyone else here b/c he outworks everyone and hires the best workers. Same c/b said of Asmussen.

At So Cal, you have a lot of good trainers. Here in Tx we have very few good ones. It's a good situation for a Cole Norman....lotta lazy trainers here to claim from and improve their stock.

[Larry Hamilton]

Some of you are beating up the wrong guy. Look at my table to see who is really the best claimer

www.hambowl.com/myforum/

[hdcper]

Hi Larry,

Noticed the data indicates claimed back. Does that mean the trainer had the horse before and is claiming it back after losing it in a claim?

Still check your site every night,

Hdcper(Bill)

[Larry Hamilton]

It means that during or after the horses last race, it was claimed. This table answers the question: how do the various trainers do with a claimed horse. I did this table as someone asked how each trainer does with claimeds. It took many hours to set it up as I had to build these fields, but now I can extend the questions to, say, how does this trainer do for that owner off a 2 back layoff while the horse is being ridden by this jock.

[highnote]

Alex Harthill, the well-known old-time vet from Kentucky said in a recent DRF article that lasix and anti-inflammatories are the great equalizers. They won't make the horse run faster, but they will allow it to run to it's ability. He goes on to say that these drugs benefit the public because no one should have to worry about whether the horse they bet is going to be too sore to run. So I guess he's saying that by masking the pain a horse feels it's the right thing to do for the horse and public. I wonder.

Why not just give the horse a rest? Economics, I suppose.

[Show Me the Wire]

Larry:

Good info confirmed some trainers that are great off the claim.

Iwinski first off the claim is dangerous and he is a very streaky trainer. I think a few years back there were alot of questions about how well Iwinski's horses were performing, but at the 2001 GP meet he was pretty cold, and at last year's GP meet he was pretty hot again. To be fair though most of his horses semd to be claimed with GP in mind, since they were claimed elsewhere prior to the meet.

Peter Walder, an excellant trainer for improving horses. The man is well respected and he takes his time. His horses are very dangerous coming off about 30 days rest.

As for me I have been following these trainers at GP for years and I have no reason to believe illlegal additives are the reason for any success of either trainer with their respective claims.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

We only see the manifestation of reality.

[smf]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
Some of you are beating up the wrong guy. Look at my table to see who is really the best claimer

www.hambowl.com/myforum/

Larry,

Nice list. I think this kinda proves what I've been saying all along about patterns vs stats. Cole Norman and Tom Amoss had tipped off winners vs non-winners off the claim for years and years in the pp content. Norman has changed his pattern recently, Amoss has been the same.

Most good claiming trainers w/h a pattern of some sort. Not all but most.

Not all claims are made to win right off the bat btw, some are meant to win 2nd off (condition book content, claiming state breds one race or 2 before shipping to that state, minor physical probs that trainers know can be fixed, etc). Norman fits that category well.

Also, where is Tim Ritchey on your list? He is one of the *very* best!

[smf]

Larry,

If I'm on the right page, your stats begin on JAN1 ? If that's the case, expect Ritchey (and a few others) to really heat up now that the Spring meets are running. Ritchey will start his serious claiming season when Del Park starts (2 weeks ago). He did run a couple off the claim at MJC over the winter (and did very well) but he really lives for the Delaware meet.

[TonyK@HSH]

Some of you guys are jumping to very strange conclusions about the success of Scott Lake. I've known Scott for 20 years as a friend and as a business foe for the last 10. He runs a solid operation, maintains good help and wins MANY races at the entry box (not with a pharmacist). He's built a huge client base and can simply purchase any horse he wants. He's also surrounded himself with clients that want to win, not race horses a notch over their head.

I know Scott has a special eye for horses as I've have the opportunity to stand with him during training hours. He see's things in horses that are not evident to others around him. He's a real talent.

As someone who's eaten a few claims from Lake, it would be easy for me to blame my lack of success with these on his MEDS. But it's simply not the case...the guy is good...no not good...this guy is great!!!!

Good luck

TonyK

[PaceAdvantage]

Unless I'm reading wrong, only one person jumped to a very strange conclusion, and without much to back it up....as long as there are successful trainers, there will be whispers I guess....


==PA

[superfecta]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Unless I'm reading wrong, only one person jumped to a very strange conclusion, and without much to back it up....as long as there are successful trainers, there will be whispers I guess....


==PA Its strange how people will knock a guy who is not very good at his job,and they will find a reason to knock one that is very good at his job.Sometimes its the same guy doing both.See the postings from enropy.The asian racing board has articles from Beyer,one which insinuates Lake is cheating,and then has another in which Beyer applaudes the guy for knowing how to give a horse time to recuperate in order to win.You can't win for losing sometimes:(

[entropy]

LH >>

Some of you are beating up the wrong guy. Look at my table to see who is really the best claimer

www.hambowl.com/myforum/

unfortunately your table only shows the 2002 numbers. how about a similar table for 2001 and prior.

from memory lake had 12/37 and some other guy 7/12 but both samples are too small ( still if i had to choose i would go for the 12/37 as more reliable ).

i think drug use in racing is a problem throughout the world but particularly in america ( i don't know of another country where lasix is allowed ). anyone who believes drugs are not a problem is very naive.

re the beyer articles why cannot both be true ??

finally did not lake get suspended for 2 mths last year for a drug +ve ?? however his horses could still run so it was not much of a penalty ( or a disincentive to stop any mischief ).

[andicap]

Did anyone catch that Bill Mott was suspended for 15 days for using some drug (can't remember the name).

C'mon, don't be naive. Drug use is rampant in horse racing. Doesn't mean you can't win and these guys aren't good trainers. And I'm not accusing Lake -- I don't go around making accusations without evidence, that's called libel.

[Figman]

I saw that about Bill Mott. Also Gary Sciacca and last year in June it was Nick Zito. All got caught in New York with the same drug -LIDOCAINE. It is reported to be a painkiller that may be injected into joints. Seem to remember Zito having a horrible Saratoga meet shortly after getting caught.

[andicap]

Often times a trainer will go into the toilet after getting caught, either publicly or behind the scenes.
Remember Oscar Barrera?
Anyone heard anything from Frank Passaro lately. Remember when he couldn't lose? Yeah, he was placing his horses right. Now all of a sudden he's placing his horses wrong?

Drug use is all over the sport and its a travesty and hurts the sport's acceptance among the general public.

[smf]

Andicap,

It w/b really great of we could do away w/ juice in racing, I agree.

However, the NFL seems to be suffering no ill effects of rampant steroid usage (Lyle Alzado's death, Danny Noonan and Brian Bozworth's articles about how "everybody juices", etc).

Same for baseball. Canseco sez he is writing a book that w/ tell all (yawn) and one of the things mentioned is wide spread steroid use. Mark McGwire used a "supplement" also, and if you were to compete in the olympics using said supplement, you'd be tossed.

Hasn't hurt baseball or football (or track). Doesn't hurt racing too much, imho.

[David McKenzie]

// Remember Oscar Barrera?
Anyone heard anything from Frank Passaro lately. Remember when he couldn't lose? Yeah, he was placing his horses right. Now all of a sudden he's placing his horses wrong? //

I've always wondered which was the better value purchase: buying a used claimer from Barrera or Ferriola, or a used NYC taxicab. They all suffered from about the same proportional abuse.

Remember Pistol Pete's 5 big winners one day in New York? The DRF had the audacity to publish a photo of him holding up his hand with five fingers extended and smiling.

And Frank Passaro vehemently denied any wrongdoing even though statistically one would be more likely to be hit by lightning AND win the lottery than string together over 15 consecutive winners like he did. So what happened? Someone from his stable disclosed that he was putting pepper on his horses's testicles.
He got suspended in the US and then what? Surprise, surprise, he became the #1 leading trainer in Canada.

[mauvais]

NEW YORK - Racing officials said Tuesday that the first effective test for erythropoietin, the blood-enhancing agent commonly known as EPO, is nearly ready for regular use at racing laboratories.
The test, which had so far proved elusive to drug-testing officials in many sports around the world, would give racing a powerful tool to combat a drug that many horsemen and regulators say is being widely abused in racing. EPO, which is marketed under trade names like Epogen and Procrit, is thought to improve a horse's performance by boosting the number of oxygen-carrying red blood cells produced by the spleen.

"The toughest part is done," said one racing official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "They just have to refine the methodology a little bit and then distribute it to all the other labs."

The test is being developed jointly by Dr. George Maylin of Cornell University in New York, Dr. Ken McKeever of Rutgers University in New Jersey, and Dr. Phil Lorimer of the New Jersey State Police laboratory. The scientists, who have received financial grants from the racing industry to perform the research, declined to speak about the progress of the test.

A lab scientist who spoke on condition of anonymity said that the test had succeeded in detecting antibodies produced by a horse's immune system in response to an EPO injection. The scientist said that the test "needed some small refinements," but was otherwise nearly ready to be distributed to other labs. The labs would then determine if the results could be duplicated before bringing the test into official use.

Also, the scientist said that a different test, one that looks for an increase in transferrin receptors, was being aggressively explored as well. The receptors, which bind proteins together in order to ease the transportation of iron in the body, generally increase in a horse several hours after EPO is injected, and the levels stay elevated for weeks after use, the scientist said. The transferrin receptor test would give regulators a chance to detect EPO abuse before a horse runs.

As reports of blood doping have gathered strength over the past two years, racing regulators have struggled to come up with an accurate test to detect EPO and similar drugs, such as darbepoietin. The governing bodies of human endurance sports, including cycling, long-distance running, and cross-country skiing, have also encountered difficulties in establishing a test accurate enough to withstand legal challenges.

Cheers,

Phoenix

[andicap]

that's fine, but the druggies always stay one step ahead of the scientists.

The guys who use drugs on their horses are the same ones who would want to send a kid away for 10 years for smoking a j

[alyingthief]

there's a well-known trainer in SoCal, affectionately known throughout the good ole USA, as "the juice man". now, this here juice man will claim a horse, and his beyers will improve by 20 to 30000 pts, in a miraculously short length of time, like two weeks. occasionally, one of this here trainer's miracles will be claimed away, and in its next race, it's back to its previous habits, and the beyers are down 20 to 30000 pts. sometimes, the juiceman will be so delighted in the character of a charge, he'll claim him back, and behold! 20 to 30000 pts improvement.

this here trainer was an understudy in the Xx.... Yy.... training camp, so maybe he's able to perform these feats of magic through superior skill. on the other hand, this here trainer is a former veterinarian, they say, and has been seen with a kit bag and a mask, and it's reported that he once ran a 2 minute mile after inadvertently sticking a syringe in his hand. myself, i regard the consistency of this man's action as suspect. i think suspicion is a very useful tool in dealing with the juice man, cuz i can protect my bet by keying his horse on top to legitimate contenders. wait, among, among the legitimate, etc.

can anybody guess this trainer's name?

i mean, this is horse-racing, fer gawd's sake, there's guys in this business who'll stick chili-peppers in a horse's butt for performance value! the very reputation of the sport attracts all manner of wizards and warlocks to its arena; and because we players are viewed as the scum of the earth, the law is more likely to turn a lethargic eye on shenanigans in our beloved venue than in other, more socially approved fields of peculation, i mean, speculation. in hong kong, there are very legitimate business firms involved in the wagering on racing there, and they insist on absolute honesty, and the government insures it, in response.