IS TODD PLETCHER SPECIAL ???

[karlskorner]

New York stewards found him guilty for a positive use of a banned substance and don't know what to do about it.

www.drf.com/news/article/66333.html

[Dr. Carter]

I feel a double standard approaching !!!

[Bobby]

Yes, a slap on the wrist.

However, I did read somewhere that this particular drug can linger in a horse's system so . . . . maybe a slap warranted.

[DerbyTrail]

Well considering that Rick Dutrow got benched for the EXACT SAME medication, there had better be a penalty..

[Fastracehorse]

I think that he is especially useful.

( The above is a riddle - ha ha he he ).

Allbeit I'm not that clever.

fffastt

[the little guy]

Well considering that Rick Dutrow got benched for the EXACT SAME medication, there had better be a penalty..I agree. What continues to befuddle me, and probably many here, is that considering they use the same vet, why are there no sanctions against him.

[cj]

Last summer at Saratoga? Good thing they don't take their time with these things!

[karlskorner]

Whats bothersome is that they have to " think " about it, after all it's Todd Pletcher. He has run 100 or more horses since last summer, how many were visited by the VET ?

[Suff]

Charles Hayward, NYRA's president and CEO, estimates it will cost $500,000 annually to run the security barn. He said he believes it will help deter cheaters.

"We're not pounding our chests and saying we're the first - we just think it's a good thing to do," he said. "If we don't think it's effective, we'll look at it.

"Just like testing is not a cure-all, this is not going to be a cure-all. The most significant aspect of this is this keeps private vets out of stalls on race day

http://www.rmtcnet.com/showpage.asp?story=75

[Steve 'StatMan']

If the barn's horses run just as well under the assistant's name, like in the case of R. Dutrow & Rodriguez, we might get some nice prices on their horses! Not good for Mr. Pletcher, but not necessarily bad for us smart handicappers/bettors.

[ezpace]

I feel a double standard approaching !!!



Dr. There has always been a double standard in racing. It's called the "green light" for elitists. Doping horses has always been around. IMO it has become out of control the last 15 years.

1980's it was elephant juice.1990's assorted. Late 1990's to present .. European human heart attack medicine.FWIW.

And don't even ask what they have in South America that makes it's way to NY,CA,FL, an KY.... hey they got to keep them broodmares and stallions worth the dough at all costs...

[ezpace]

security barn ... pooshaw...BS..it's all about the best of testing equpment and labs,,, but above all who is in charge of that. Horses CAN and ARE hopped right in the paddock stall and on the way to the paddock,which is AFTER the security barn.

Put that tongue tie on him while flipping that nitro right down the pipe.

[ezpace]

I'd luv to see dope out of racing .The gambling would be fantastic . IF there we're fewwer tracks with larger handles,full fields and no DOPE it would be unbelievable. Like it should be.

[PaceAdvantage]

By fantastic, do you mean easier? And if by easier, then it won't be fantastic because eventually every winner will pay $2.10.....

An extreme outcome, perhaps, but still an interesting concept....drugs keep the game difficult enough so that no one handicapping method or system can dominate....LOL

[kenwoodallpromos]

And all along I thought it was the condition book! Maybe whatever amount of doping is not caught enables some horses to beat the condition book and race classification?

[DerbyTrail]

I agree. What continues to befuddle me, and probably many here, is that considering they use the same vet, why are there no sanctions against him.

TLG..

You could ask that question 'all day' long and never get an answer...

[Figman]

http://tinyurl.com/99gvb

[Dr. Carter]

I stand corrected, no double standard.

[Suff]

http://tinyurl.com/99gvb

How does this shake out for Saratoga? How long can he drag out an appeal?

Can he procedually protract this out or is he rock and a hard place?

[karlskorner]

For reasons I can't come up with right now, it just doesn't seem ENOUGH. 45 days and $3000. fine (pocket change to him). His assistants run the operation, he still colletcts the "dailys" from the owners, shares in all purses won during that period and comes the end of the 45 day suspension, goes right back to what he was doing.

[DerbyTrail]

He'll appeal it at least through Breeders.. Serve it in Jan-Feb or something..

[PaceAdvantage]

For reasons I can't come up with right now, it just doesn't seem ENOUGH. 45 days and $3000. fine (pocket change to him). His assistants run the operation, he still colletcts the "dailys" from the owners, shares in all purses won during that period and comes the end of the 45 day suspension, goes right back to what he was doing.

All trainers enjoy these kinds of benefits when they are "suspended"

At least the successful ones who can afford such a suspension....the guy who only has a couple horses and a patchwork of assistants would probably be in a bit more trouble....

[BillW]

All trainers enjoy these kinds of benefits when they are "suspended"

At least the successful ones who can afford such a suspension....the guy who only has a couple horses and a patchwork of assistants would probably be in a bit more trouble....

Steve Asmussen's mother sometimes takes over for him while on "vacation". Makes it a little too obvious :) .

[kenwoodallpromos]

How about the story on Zito's wife and Stright Gin, is that a cover for Nick?

[Suff]

All trainers enjoy these kinds of benefits when they are "suspended"

At least the successful ones who can afford such a suspension....the guy who only has a couple horses and a patchwork of assistants would probably be in a bit more trouble....

I don't see it changing anytime soon either. So that raises the question, that we are to assume the $3000 fine is a slap on the wrist. 3K is coffee money for Pletcher.

Really, the NY racing authority knows he'll navigate around this suspension with minor discomfort. Also that he'll string it out so he's MIA when racing is in winter hibernation.

It would of meant alot more if they had added -0- to the fine

$3000.00 to $30,000.00

If the suspension is a smoke screen and the fine is 3K......he got away with it. imho

[karlskorner]

When I said it's not ENOUGH, I just didn't mean Pletcher, I am talking about the entire group of trainers, large or small. Drastic measures have to be taken to "punish" the offenders. Horeses in their charge not allowed to run during the suspension, this hurts the owners, who could very well change trainers. Suspensions of 6 months or more. The offending VET denied entance to the track during the suspensions and I could go on. Sooner or later Trainers will get the message.

[kenwoodallpromos]

If trainers went by the book all the time, and gave out all the true inside info on their horses, and the jockeys all beat the hell out of the horses regardless of how far behind they were, and all tracks were speed-favoring every day, the losers would have no more excuses and get their egos bruised! Watch the handle drop then!
Bad, cheating, doping, juicer, bigshot trainers who get away with beating speed figure favorites 67% of the time are actually saving racing!LOL! :lol:

[Dr. Carter]

Own a business and go away for 45 days and see how fun it is. If a month and a half suspension is not enough then what do you propose? Public flogging?

[Suff]

Own a business and go away for 45 days and see how fun it is. If a month and a half suspension is not enough then what do you propose? Public flogging?


You going to talk nonsense or have honest disussion. Were'nt you involved or read the thread where the consenus was that Suspensions were mear rouges. That any trainer can see his horse at a Farm or off track stall. Also, that long time assistants can communicate freely with the trainer?

But I don't want to rehash that. Just pointing out that your statement comparing a Horse Trainer suspension to 45 days away from a business is disenguine. I suspect you know that. You are acting as defense counsel for trainers?

You yourself aptly pointed out that this boards population are by and large bettors. Bettors are interested in routing out cheating. That is the prism through which we look at racing events here. In my estimation, this penalty does not serve as a significant enough deterent to others.

I agree with the other poster that disciplinary action is even less painful to a barn as successful as Plecthers. With his deep pocket owners, he can have any horse he wants shipped to him. It is a Minor inconvienence. Also, when considering DRUG CHEATING is at the forefront of issues facing the industry the weight of the penalty is not that heavy.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I am asking because I assume nothing I deo not know about medications:
What is your guesstimate as to what % of private racetrack vets are EVER willing to break the rules?
How easy is it for big and/or small trainers to get drugs illegal under racing rules?

[Dr. Carter]

You going to talk nonsense or have honest disussion. Were'nt you involved or read the thread where the consenus was that Suspensions were mear rouges. That any trainer can see his horse at a Farm or off track stall. Also, that long time assistants can communicate freely with the trainer?

But I don't want to rehash that. Just pointing out that your statement comparing a Horse Trainer suspension to 45 days away from a business is disenguine. I suspect you know that. You are acting as defense counsel for trainers?

You yourself aptly pointed out that this boards population are by and large bettors. Bettors are interested in routing out cheating. That is the prism through which we look at racing events here. In my estimation, this penalty does not serve as a significant enough deterent to others.

I agree with the other poster that disciplinary action is even less painful to a barn as successful as Plecthers. With his deep pocket owners, he can have any horse he wants shipped to him. It is a Minor inconvienence. Also, when considering DRUG CHEATING is at the forefront of issues facing the industry the weight of the penalty is not that heavy.


Is a racing stable with $30 million dollars worth of horses not a business? Be serious, the "consenus" is not law or word of god. Do you understand that 75% of trainers are living month to month just like most everybody else? Todd Pletcher is the exception but if you impose draconian penalties like 3 year suspensions you guys will have to find something else to bet on because there will be nobody left. You cant start penalizing people based upon their success or the size of their bank account. A 5 day suspension is an inconvience, 45 days is alot.
He'll lose some business because of this. Maybe not alot but lets see what "Mr. Clean" Barry Irwin does with last years Saratoga sales topper. He has made public statements about drug use before so lets see if he stands up or comes up with an excuse.
I guarantee that cheating trainers have taken alot more money out of my pockets than yours because while I have to go heads up against them you probably unknowingly have cashed a lot of tickets on horses that were juiced. And I agree that steps need to be taken but unless you prove to me that a trainer knowingly and purposely drugged a horse, 45 days is a sufficent penalty.

[twindouble]

Is a racing stable with $30 million dollars worth of horses not a business? Be serious, the "consenus" is not law or word of god. Do you understand that 75% of trainers are living month to month just like most everybody else? Todd Pletcher is the exception but if you impose draconian penalties like 3 year suspensions you guys will have to find something else to bet on because there will be nobody left. You cant start penalizing people based upon their success or the size of their bank account. A 5 day suspension is an inconvience, 45 days is alot.
He'll lose some business because of this. Maybe not alot but lets see what "Mr. Clean" Barry Irwin does with last years Saratoga sales topper. He has made public statements about drug use before so lets see if he stands up or comes up with an excuse.
I guarantee that cheating trainers have taken alot more money out of my pockets than yours because while I have to go heads up against them you probably unknowingly have cashed a lot of tickets on horses that were juiced. And I agree that steps need to be taken but unless you prove to me that a trainer knowingly and purposely drugged a horse, 45 days is a sufficent penalty.

I take it you own or train horses. I would think an honest trainer or owner would be realy upset knowing the compitition is cheating him out of purces on a regular bases. It's one thing to pump up a home run hitter or running back when all they do is draw a bigger crowd when they win but it's another to reach out and steal a purce plus the publics money to boot. So, where do you draw the line? I think the line has already drawn, if you can't beat them, join them. That's the public perception in my opinion and to me that's not good for horse racing.

Over the years I have always said, you have to handicap the thieves as well as the horses at the track your playing. Druging horses is nothing new and has been brushed under the table for many years, when cheaters were caught it was always just a slap on the wrist. From what I see it's so prevalent today due to the drug culture we've created, I would say out of control. When I see a 5yo horse run 12 to 15 legnths better than his carreer best the flag goes up that's for sure. I've see so many incomprehensible form reversals over the last few years, you would have be fool not to incorperate that fact in your handicapping and wagering.

[PaceAdvantage]

And I agree that steps need to be taken but unless you prove to me that a trainer knowingly and purposely drugged a horse, 45 days is a sufficent penalty.

This quote can NOT be STRESSED ENOUGH!

I did not read up on this particular case with Pletcher, so I don't know the drugs involved. But as we all know, there are PLENTY of legal medications given to horses that are only ILLEGAL if detected in their system on RACE DAY.

We are dealing with living, breathing creatures, each with his or her own METABOLIC rate....they each will break down the drugs given to them in a little different manner, and at a little different pace.

That's why the quote above by Dr. Carter needs to be taken a lot more seriously by folks on this board who are way too quick to judge a trainer who has had a horse come back positive.

[PaceAdvantage]

Horeses in their charge not allowed to run during the suspension, this hurts the owners, who could very well change trainers.

I was just thinking today how suspending the HORSES (ALL the horses currently under the care of the offending trainer) would be an incredibly effective deterrent, because now you are going into the pockets of the OWNERS, who aren't going to put up with that kind of action for very long.

[DerbyTrail]

I was just thinking today how suspending the HORSES (ALL the horses currently under the care of the offending trainer) would be an incredibly effective deterrent, because now you are going into the pockets of the OWNERS, who aren't going to put up with that kind of action for very long.

PA,

Suspending horses IS part of Kentucky's tough new policies.

[J-bred]

Mullins is the antichrist and Pletcher walks on water. No double standard here. The only difference is one speaks the truth while the other knows enough to keep his mouth shut when the media scum shows up at their barns.

[Kreed]

i agree with Dr. Carter. 45 days is plenty unless the trainer INTENTIONALLY
wanted to cheat. penalizing ALL a trainers' horses is so dumb & anti-business,
well, where's the dumpster? what i would like to see is a trainer's (barn's) log
of what drugs every horse gets. Guys like Pletcher employ lots of help & I think
a nice log or computer diary would be a good start.

[karlskorner]

Thank you, you made my point " OWNERS are not going to put up with that action very long " How often must an OWNER give up the purse because his Trainer juiced a horse, before he decides it's best to change trainers. Let innocent Owners be penalized, as I suggested, because their Trainer is under suspension for illegal substance and the Trainer will have an empty barn area in a short time. You are going to see a lot of " previously trained by " in the PP"s. If the Owner is aware of what his Trainer is doing than he is as guilty as the Trainer and Vet.

[Tom]

Suspending entire stables would probably end it pretty damn quick. The owners should have ultimate responsibility for thier horses. You get hit by a Little Ceaser's driver, you sue the company, not the driver.

Can you imagine if Frankel gets days and all horses he trained were suspended through the Breeder's Cup! Owners would be hiring hit men!

Also, the suspensions should be a fast as possible - or at the offending track. If Pletcher gets days for a race at Saratoga, they should be served during the nest Saratoga meet. THAT would get his attention.

[CryingForTheHorses]

This quote can NOT be STRESSED ENOUGH!

I did not read up on this particular case with Pletcher, so I don't know the drugs involved. But as we all know, there are PLENTY of legal medications given to horses that are only ILLEGAL if detected in their system on RACE DAY.

We are dealing with living, breathing creatures, each with his or her own METABOLIC rate....they each will break down the drugs given to them in a little different manner, and at a little different pace.

That's why the quote above by Dr. Carter needs to be taken a lot more seriously by folks on this board who are way too quick to judge a trainer who has had a horse come back positive.

What a very true statment,Each and every horse will have a different metabolic rate.I have read all of this thread and still dont know what drugs we are talking about.

[J-bred]

There's someone at Thorograph's forum who actually knows what he's talking about in this regard, rather than the usual message forum idiot or industry propagandist:

Here's more info regarding the time the drug in question is retained in the kidneys before it's excreted (and this is for kidneys that are NOT on lasix which quicken the urine flow):

" Mepivacaine, because of its amide structure, is not detoxified by the circulating plasma esterases. Mepivacaine is rapidly metabolized. The liver is the principal site of metabolism, with over 50 per cent of the administered dose being excreted into the bile as metabolites. Most of the metabolized mepivacaine is probably resorbed in the intestine and then excreted into the urine, since only a small percentage is found in the feces. The principal route of excretion is via the kidneys. Most of the anaesthetic and its metabolites are eliminated within 30 hours.

A percentage of up to 16 per cent of the dose administered is excreted unchanged in the urine."

So this talk that the drug stays in system LONGER than expected is questionable at best. IMO, the horse raced within that 30 hour window after getting this injection if enough of the drug showed in a post race drug test!

[Kreed]

Pletcher used the drug MEPI-VACAINE --- its a nerve block, anesthetic.
Probably blocks pain. Now I see Kentucky trainer Frank Brothers got 15 days
for using ACEpromazine, a tranquilizer. hehe Pletcher's no dope; he uses a
drug that makes the horse run to his speed, feeling good, while Brothers uses
a drug that depresses speed.

[Tom]

Slow metabolic rates, I don't know...sounds to me like a jockey saying, "Oh, I carried the buzzer longer than I meant to. I usually leave in my locker. I only use it for training."


There must be some range of time, say it is gone in 3-7 days. They stop using it 7 days before the race. Sorry, but IMHO trainers and owners are given way too much leniency on what amounts to cheating - whether or not intentional, the rules are still broken and who else is responsibile if not the owner/trainers?

[karlskorner]

" Who else is responsible if not the trainer/owner " Who else ? THE VET. I said it 3/4 years ago when the VET arrives with his " CANDY TRUCK " ALL THE GOODIES ARE INSIDE. 90 percent of the owner/trainers can't pronounce the names of the medication, much less spell it. You don't go to the corner Drug Store and pick medication off the shelves. It's the VET thats screwing you, me and every handicapper. As I said above, when the trainer is suspended so should the VET. It bothers me how complacent every one is, yeah I know they are using drugs, but I'll go right on putting my money into the mutuals. There is a guy over on Derby List giving 15/1 that Pletcher arranges his suspension after the BC, how convient.

[Tom]

Karl,

I agree completely that the vets should be included. I would guess loss of license would be appropriate at some point.

[karlskorner]

When I pulled into the horsemens parkiing lot this morning at 11:30 and saw a local private practice VET coming out of the barn area in his JAG, you just got to know that was a present from one of his patients.

[GeTydOn]

Whatever. Don't vets make good money, like doctors?! Everyone is so cynical.

[BillW]

Are the Vets subject to the rules of racing? I didn't think they were. For instance, I'm sitting in the waiting room with T. Pletcher. We're both waiting on our valued horse. How does it work? Is my horse exempt from racing rules because he pulls a plow? Do I have to sign a sworn statement? Or is the vet prohibited from treating my horse because the racing commission says so?

Bill

[PaceAdvantage]

There's someone at Thorograph's forum who actually knows what he's talking about in this regard, rather than the usual message forum idiot or industry propagandist:

Either that, or a cut and paste job from some pharma literature.

[PaceAdvantage]

When I pulled into the horsemens parkiing lot this morning at 11:30 and saw a local private practice VET coming out of the barn area in his JAG, you just got to know that was a present from one of his patients.

Not helpful at all to the current discussion. A distraction at best....

I know folks who wouldn't be considered "rich" by anyone's standards, and they drive a Jaguar through the magic of leasing....means nothing....

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, when I advocated above the suspending of a trainer's entire stable of runners as a way to force an owner's hand, I neglected to realize that the owner is ALREADY feeling the heat from a drug positive suspension, because the PURSE MONEY is taken away from the offending horse....thus the owner IS pinched under current procedure.

Perhaps suspending a trainer's entire stable, and thus impacting OTHER owners whose horses compete on the up and up, is too draconian....

BTW, can something be TOO draconian, or is it just draconian? LOL

[kenwoodallpromos]

How about this solution:
Any horse caught with drug viollation has to placed in the lowest level claimer on the same circuit for the next race, within 30 days of test results. If the horse who failed is hurt, sold, or already claimed, the trainer's fine is equal to the total purse of the race the violation was found in addition to any forfeiture.