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hcap
06-29-2005, 07:26 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20050628/pl_nm/usa_congress_veterans_dc

War injured toll soars, hits veterans health costs

Tue Jun 28, 4:33 PM ET

Richard Cowan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As the numbers of U.S. war injured in Iraq and Afghanistan soared, the Bush administration admitted to lawmakers on tuesday it had underestimated funds to cover health care costs for veterans and Congress would have to plug a $2.6 billion hole.

"The bottom line is there is a surge in demand in VA (health) services across the board," said Veterans Affairs Secretary James Nicholson.

The Veterans Administration assumed it would have to take care of 23,553 patients who are veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but that number had been revised upward to 103,000, Nicholson told a House of Representatives panel.

Nicholson told a House Appropriations subcommittee that his agency's estimate of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in need of health care services was now four times greater than thought

Very disturbing
Number of injured downplayed bigtime. We were lied to once again, or can any of you military guys maybe explain this??

Meanwhile bush says
911 blah, blah, blah.
911 blah, blah, blah.
911 blah, blah, blah.

hcap
06-29-2005, 07:39 AM
..Did you ever wonder how much actual effort was being put into the training effort? So did we.

According to this recent Congressional Research Service report Post-War Iraq: Foreign Contributions to Training, Peacekeeping, and Reconstruction (PDF), here is a summary of what is being done to retrain the security forces in Iraq under the auspices of the NATO Training Mission-I (NTM-I) program:

http://www.needlenose.com/node/view/1569

Coalition? you say.
Rhimes with nookular.

PaceAdvantage
06-29-2005, 10:02 AM
Who is "we?"

46zilzal
06-29-2005, 11:54 AM
Meanwhile bush says
911 blah, blah, blah.
911 blah, blah, blah.
911 blah, blah, blah.

COMMON ploy: when I talk to many of my geriatric patients and they get themselves boxed into a corner they invariably quip "Well I fought in the war, the BIG one." I repsond "That's nice, but it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about now." HIS BADGE OF COURAGE often brought out to show what a CONCERNED RUTABAGA he is.

kenwoodallpromos
06-29-2005, 12:53 PM
" Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in need of health care services"
First, The number of those in need of VA health care includes not only those who were wounded due to direct war action; it also includes those who will have other non-combat related injuries, those like myself who leave the military with some physical problem they did not have going in but not necessarily an injury, and those who earn little enough in civilian life so that qualify for discounted or free VA service.
If you have the number who are said to have sustained direct combat-related injuries I would like hear it. Otherwise, this is mixing apples, oranges, eggs, and peaches.
The more the Govt spends on vets the better! And they will live much longer.
The best way to reduce VA spending is for vets to have decent paying jobs.
Having said that, the Bush admin almost always has lousy PR and no decent actuary sense.

hcap
06-29-2005, 07:02 PM
Ken,

You may be right. But it does not seem reasonable that the DOD underestimated as you sayit also includes those who will have other non-combat related injuries, those like myself who leave the military with some physical problem they did not have going in but not necessarily an injury, and those who earn little enough in civilian life so that qualify for discounted or free VA service....these injuries by 80,000?? More likely the real number of truly wounded has been underestimated. How much? We don't know for sure, but check out these references.

From the article I posted...

..the Veterans Administration assumed it would have to take care of 23,553 patients who are veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but that number had been revised upward to 103,000, Nicholson told a House of Representatives panel.

Nicholson told a House Appropriations subcommittee that his agency's estimate of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in need of health care services was now four times greater than thought.

Then according to Ralph Nader

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/zeese7.html

"The DoD reports 13,074 but knowledgeable estimates** range from 15,000 to 38,000 according to UPI investigative reporter, Mark Benjamin. The Pentagon does not provide publicly a comprehensive accounting of the human toll of the war from the American side, not to mention the larger toll on the Iraqi people. The Administration only reports the strictly combat-related injuries. Neither injuries incurred not in combat nor disease-connected sicknesses nor severe mental traumas are reported. What other President has deliberately undercounted American casualties? No wonder President Bush orders the return of U.S. casualties at nighttime to Andrews Air Force base and bans the press from the military airport at Dover, Delaware."


AND http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

Total Wounded:
Official 13074


Estimated 15000 - 38000

And http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/10/1537224

AMY GOODMAN: How do you get these figures, and why arenít they being more reported?

MARK BENJAMIN: "You have to ask the right questions. If you go to the Pentagon, and you take their own definitions of casualties and ask you them the right questions, they will give you some answers.

So, for example, the reason why I started asking questions is that I visited eight major military facilities around the country -- well, in the United States and Europe, and frankly, I just saw more soldiers that were hurt than seemed to be reflected in the Pentagon reports. They -- the Pentagon says, when I asked them what was on and not on their casualty lists, they said they weren't keeping track of the number of soldiers. The Pentagon told me we are not keeping track of the number of soldiers who are wounded or ill or injured that are not hit by the enemy's bullets and bombs. If you go to the Pentagon's transportation command, however -- these are the people that put wounded soldiers on airplanes and fly them out -- they will give you some data. What the Pentagon says is, well, not every single person who is put on an airplane and flown out of Iraq is a casualty; some of them may have appendicitis, and so on and so forth. But they won't tell you how many of each category there are. So in other words, we know that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of potential casualties that are not being reported."

lsbets
06-29-2005, 10:14 PM
I tend to agree with Ken, and I'll gove you two examples:

1) Most posts where Army Reservists demobilize from are not able to provide dental care to the soldiers before they come off active duty. So what happens? The Army passes the buck to the VA. You have 90 days to register with the VA and then 6 months to get your teeth taken care of. If 200,000 reservists had been moblized since this started, I would say probably 75,000 or so chose to get their dental care done at the VA. That counts as health care.

2) The new body armor is awesome - but most people wear it wrong and that causes back injuries. It wasn't until we were in country for three months that we were ever shown the proper way to wear the IBA, and by that time about 10% of my company already had back problems, so there is another 20,000 or so soldiers needing health care.

I know you want to believe the worst Hcap, but it doesn't sound that way to me. I know want to find the grand consipracy at work on any subject related to Iraq. Remember, health care services is a pretty broad term and covers injuries and illness.

kenwoodallpromos
06-30-2005, 12:11 AM
Any health problems is too many, and any casualty is too many. Let's hurryu and get the Iraqi's trained up! (and move to the Syrian border?)

Tom
06-30-2005, 12:52 AM
ls, that is very disturbing. Guys getting hurt because they weren't trained, but everyone keeps saying we don't need any more troops there. Maybe a few hundred trainers might be a good idea?

hcap
06-30-2005, 06:02 AM
Based upon the bs on so many things we have been told about this war, the recent admission that numbers were under estimated by 80,000, does not look good.

You may call it "the grand consipracy", but in that case, Pat Tilman, Jessica Lynch, the toppling of Saddam's statue, and other bs could also be called for what they were - lying.

Dental patients??
Sounds silly. 75,000? What is the normal rate of dental problems in peacetime per 1000? How many total have been in Iraq or Afghanistan?
Do the math

lsbets
06-30-2005, 06:25 AM
Hcap - every soldier is eligible to get a cleaningand an exam. Every single one. You can say it sounds silly, but its the truth - every soldier on active duty is entitled to one cleaning and exam per year, and since the Army bases can't handle the influx of reservists recalled to active duty, they pass the buck to the VA.

How did I know that would be your attitude in your response?

hcap
06-30-2005, 06:43 AM
From the article

..it had underestimated funds to cover health care costs for veterans and Congress would have to plug a $2.6 billion hole.

Every soldier on active duty? How many reservists? 100,000? since the Army bases can't handle the influx of reservists recalled to active duty, they pass the buck to the VA. 100,000*one cleaning and exam should equal at let's say $100 each- about 10 million. $200?- 20 million.

We have to explain $2.6 BILLION
Your numbers are of by a factor of 100

lsbets
06-30-2005, 05:41 PM
Hcap - I am not the Army or the VAs f-ing accountant. I had assumed that you might be interested in hearing where some of these soldiers might come from, and based on my experience as a mobilized reservist who served as a company commander I gave you two examples. I guess you are not interested in hearing anything from people who have some direct knowledge of VA healthcare for soldiers returning from Iraq, unless of course it fits your agenda.

kenwoodallpromos
06-30-2005, 07:36 PM
"The bottom line is there is a surge in demand in VA (health) services across the board," said Veterans Affairs Secretary James Nicholson."
Since I am 20% service-connected disabled (non-combat related), and my other income is below $11,000 per year, and since Bush took office I need 4 blood pressure and 2 diabetes prescriptions, plus any others that come up, and since I get eyeglasses. the Va pays maybe $2,000.00 for my meds and let me see a DR. about 4 times per year.
When I come out of the US Navy they found I had aggravated an old ankle injury, pinched a nerve at my elbow. and developed hemroids. My $210 disability is for my arm and for the Navy being a pain in the A**!

hcap
07-01-2005, 07:22 AM
Ken,

I'm not happy that veterans are being shortchanged, by maybe $2.6 BILLION.
The bottom line is even if I am wrong in assuming the numbers of wounded are being purpusely downplayed, as well as the severity of the injuries, we are being lied to about the real costs of this war. In blood and treasure. AGAIN.

Just like how the recruitment numbers were handled

....Early last month, the Army, with no public notice, lowered its long-stated May goal to 6,700 recruits from 8,050. Compared with the original target, the Army achieved only 62.6 percent of its goal for the month.

....Army officials defended the shift on Tuesday, saying it was not uncommon to change monthly goals at midyear. They said that the latest change reflected the reality that the Army was not going to meet its May goal, and that it made more sense to shift some of that quota to the summer months, traditionally a better season for recruiters to attract new high school graduates.

BUT



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/29/national/30RECRUIT_GRAPHIC.gif

Kreed
07-01-2005, 07:48 AM
When We USA Citizens are Deceived. I think the point here is what Hcap & 46
and others keep stressing about: WE ARE LIED TO DAILY by 43 & his minions.
"We have more than enough troops" .... "Your tanks are adequate & your body
armor is perfect." .... WMD's .... Oh, i don't want to drone on but will we ever
know given this administration's PR stunts & Sound Bytes & SECRETS about
almost everything & False News Stories etc etc. Is it a surprise to anyone
that the USA is drifting away from solving any real social problems here at home? What squandered money. What wasted human efforts. Where's the
payoff?

wes
07-01-2005, 09:33 AM
The Dem's will not quit downing the president in the news media to have time to get anything else done. They may never win another election. Dem need to kiss their own ass goodbye because they already have their heads in the right place.


wes

kenwoodallpromos
07-01-2005, 11:45 AM
Only if you do not check things out for yourself- then everything decieves you.
If you want the truth, scan the BBC; AP; and Christian Science Monitor daily and read Foreign Affairs magazine.

Kreed
07-01-2005, 04:43 PM
You're right Ken ... i am NOT fooled but I do resent those amateur attempts
to deceive.

Tom
07-01-2005, 06:47 PM
Kreed....name me an admisistration that didn't lie about everyting.

Lying is just what politicians do.
JFK, Nixon, Regan, 41, Clinton......wouldn't buy a used car from any of them.
Carter - probably never lied, probably never had a clue to begin with.
He was to the presidency what Shemp was to the Three Stooges.:D