How good was Ghostzapper - Davidowitz

[classhandicapper]

From Trackmaster

http://www.trackmaster.com/retail/sd0605.htm

[Zaf]

Right behind Cigar on the list. It is a shame we will never know how good GZ could of really been.

ZAFONIC

[saratoga guy]

I really think an objective look at his very brief career precludes Ghostzapper from being on a list like that...

This guy went around two turns only twice -- and one of those was against three outclassed rivals in the Iselin. Ran further than 9F just once.

Really not a career match for the others on that list.

[Zaf]

I agree with you SG.

ZAFONIC

[JPinMaryland]

Ack Ack really should be on that list; since he would be in the appropriate time frame for Davidovitz to see him. Gun Bow is probably a better choice than Canonero II for the list

The reference to the Woodward in the bit about Fager should be to the 1967 version, not 1968.

[classhandicapper]

I have a tough time putting horses that were beaten many times very high on the list. I am willing to give them an excuse for losses on off tracks, turf, spotting huge wight etc.... I guess if you view them just off a specific series of races within a longer career it makes sense, but then you have to start looking at horses like Best Pal, Formal Gold and others that got really sharp for 3-4 races.

1. Spectacular Bid
2. Dr. Fager
3. Seattle Slew
4. Forego
5. Affirmed
6. Cigar

[JPinMaryland]

So what horses do you have a problem with on the list? YOur post is not very clear what you are saying.

Personal Ensign might be another addition to the list.

[classhandicapper]

Cannonero II had a pretty poor 4 YO campaign other than his one dynamite win over Riva Ridge. His overall record isn't that good either.

Kelso had some very good periods (especially if you are generous about the weight concessions in the losses), but his overall record isn't that great. I just can't see him as #1.

John Henry also had a very spotty record.

[Figman]

KELSO's record isn't great. Are you serious? He won from 6 F to 2 miles. Eighteen times he won a race of 1 1/4 miles or more up to 2 miles. In fact, he won FIVE TIMES at 2 miles! He won 39 races lifetime. He won one-turn Stakes, two turn Stakes, three turn Stakes. He won Stakes on the turf and Stakes on the dirt.

[Skanoochies]

Yah, but did he walk on water? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[46zilzal]

Some nags get very good for a SHORT while (usually a season i.e. Vigors) but the truly great ones STAY at the top with a little variation. They go long and short, BOTH WELL, they do reasonably well on any surface. I remember all the world telling me how great Silent Screen was BASED ON A TWO YERAR OLD CAMPAIGN only, or Devil's Bag and then we forget (as all North Americans tend to do) the great ones from across the pond Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Troy, Alleged, Allez France, Dahlia, The Minstrel...there are lots of good ones out there to remember.

[JPinMaryland]

I was wondering if classhdcp was going to say Kelso but I was afraid to ask. Canonero on that list just seems like an oversight.

[The Judge]

I think Davidowitz said what most of us said sometime ago and I agree with him and most of his selections. I also agree with his comments on the sheets and the stamp that they are trying to give on the entire breed i.e it's getting faster. This defies what we see at the track and logic. Sunday Silence and maybe Alydar would be on my listbut I can't argue with his list.

[classhandicapper]

Yes I am serious about Kelso.

IMO there is a difference between versatility and being the best horse for an extended period of time and having a great overall record. I think it's a just a matter of definition in this case.

Some of the horses on the all time greatest list have only a handful of losses lifetime and even those are mostly limited to specific semi-excusable circumstances. An occasioal DQ, their first few starts before they were developed, a race against another super champion, a race against an insane pace or a rabbit, came out of the race sick, a saftey pin :) etc....

Had Kelso raced at level weights I'm sure he would have won some of the races he lost. However, with those 39 wins came 24 losses. That's hardly a great win percentage. He may have been incredible in spots and he was obviously versatile, but he doesn't have a record of consistent greatness and domination throughout his entire career like Bid, Slew, Fager etc..

I prefer the latter and that's what I meant when referring to his overall record not being that great.

[classhandicapper]

By the way, I'm not saying he shouldn't be on the list. He was amazing in 1963 for example. I would just put him below a few of the others. I can't see making him #1.

[cj]

I am a figure guy, and I enjoyed making numbers for Ghostzapper's races. Those are the kind you can't wait to make.

That said, this guy raced only 11 times. I don't think he would be in my top 50 since 1960. Look at who he beat in his sprints. Absolutely nothing. He had one race where he beat top level competition, and that was the BC Classic. Even then, he waltzed on a lead without challenge. He could have been considered one of the greats if he stuck around and continued to win, but he just didn't do enough for whatever reasons. No way, no how, is this guy an all time great.

[Bobby]

I agree. I mean he wuz a lukewarm favorite, I think, for the BC classic. Since then, he wuz crowned the best older horse. He ran one more time. Beat Silver Wagon and Forest Danger. I donno. I think he's the best horse now but . . .
Make a list WITH 3YO FORM.

[Valuist]

John Henry had a spotty record? Didn't he win a Grade 1 at age 9? That's amazing. Grade 1 winner on dirt or turf. No way, no how can anyone deny him.

[classhandicapper]

CJ,

Did you make a pace figure for last year's BC Classic?

[cj]

I did, but off the top of my head, I dont' remember what it was, I think 124 120 were the figures. I wouldn't put much faith in it though as that is the only 10f race run at Lone Star that I could find, at least on a fast track. I mark races at distances like this with a ' for this very reason.

[toetoe]

It's hard not to overrate a horse you saw in person. I'm surprised Davidowitz doesn't pick Onion and Prove Out, two horses he saw whipping Secretariat. I would throw out Alysheba, Mineshaft and maybe Tiznow.

As to Euros, Dahlia oozed class, but finished behind Allez France 6 or 8 times. %age not great.

One Doc Fager note. Hedevar was a real horse. Speed crazy, yes. But in today's thinned-down sport, he'd be considered a monster. Look at Madcap Escapade. OOH, when's she running next? She's a freak ... NOT!