Davidowitz's list

[Valuist]

Saw this at the Trackmaster site. He's been following racing since 1960 and these are, in his opinion, the top 4 YOs and up that he's seen since 1960. I've only been following racing for half that time so I haven't seen some of these but I do agree with him that the Sheet makers are incorrect in saying that Ghostzapper is the best horse since Secretariat. Since Sec didn't race as a 4YO, he is not on the list:

1. Kelso
2. Spectacular Bid- best I've seen
3. Dr. Fager
4. Forego
5. Seattle Slew
6. Affirmed
7. Alysheba- he got better as a 4YO
8. Cigar- broke down more horses than any horse I've seen, inc. Holy Bull
9. Ghostzapper
10. Slew O Gold- the most underrated horse in the past 25 years, IMO
11. Mineshaft- Sheet makers said he was "fastest of all time"....until GZ came along. :D
12. John Henry- the toughest, gamest horse I've seen
13. Tiznow- pretty game himself
14. Skip Away
15. Canonero II

[kev]

No No where do you get your info from the so-called sheet makers. When it comes to The Sheets, they had Dr.Fager as the fastest ever and GZ right behind him. Now Thorograph, they have only been making fig's from 1981, where the sheets from the 60's.

[Valuist]

I was saying "sheet" in the generic sense. I believe T-Graph's numbers are more reliable than the Ragozins. As for the list, its Davidowitz's; not either Thorograph or Ragozins. And his list isn't only about speed figures.

[DrugSalvastore]

8. Cigar- broke down more horses than any horse I've seen, inc. Holy Bull


LOL!! Haven't you been paying attention my man?--I said the same thing about Lukas and PA shut the thread down faster than a hobo would jump on a ham sandwich. You better watch it my man! lol!

Seriously though, Cigar did not "brake down" Holy Bull--that is utter nonsense. Holy Bull was on a lead through MUCH less than torrid fractions, and he went wrong about three furlongs into the race..and was pulled up while drifiting out badly through the early-to-mid stages of the backstretch. Cigar had NOTHING to do with Holy Bull's injury.

It wasn't like they had dueled shoulder-to-shoulder through torrid fractions, and after several furlongs of intense battle, Holy Bull had gone lame. I think it's fair to make the argument that Bayakoa (sp?) broke down Go For Wand, but to say that "Cigar broke down Holy Bull" is just silly. It was well within the scope of a healthy Holy Bull to go three and a half furlongs, through honest fractions, with Cigar offering only mild pressure.

I think it might even be less absurd to say that the team of Love Of Money and Forest Danger broke down Ghostzapper. Ghostzapper decided to hound those two horses through sizzling fractions! (he moved into a 22 second flat second quarter mile!) Obviously Ghostzapper won despite hounding that torrid pace--and the two real nice horses who made the pace (Love of Money and FD) both faded way off-the-tv screen--the tag team of horses did force Ghostzapper to run A VERY HARD AND STRESSFUL RACE for a horse running off a long layoff. Obviously the long series of works by Frankel had been intended to have Ghostzapper ready to run such a nice race off a long layoff, but no doubt the injury could be a result of the stressful race he ran off the bench in the Met.

In hindsight, I bet Castallano wishes he would have kept Ghostzapper well off that pace, and let his two best opponets slow it down and have it easy. It would have been a tactical mistake--but it would have been in the best interest of a WORLD CLASS horse making his first start off the bench.

[toetoe]

Can you have Skip Away without Formal Gold? That's like Affirmed without Alydar, shock without awe, Callard without Bowser, etc. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a late scratch --- scratch Meara; Stiller will run, for purse money only, of course.

[DrugSalvastore]

No No where do you get your info from the so-called sheet makers. When it comes to The Sheets, they had Dr.Fager as the fastest ever and GZ right behind him. Now Thorograph, they have only been making fig's from 1981, where the sheets from the 60's.

I guess the Ragozin sheets go all the way back to the days of Native Dancer. FWIW, Spectacular Bid held the fastest Ragozin sheet number ever recorded from 1980 until 2002 when Congaree broke it. 22+ year run isn't bad.

Other things to note about the Ragozin Sheets

* Easy Goer, in the '89 Belmont actually ran the exact same Ragozin figure as Secratariat did in the '73 Belmont Stakes. Even though Big Red's time was two full seconds faster, I guess the Ragozin people had the track much faster in '73. EG has the 2nd fastest Belmont time ever, 2:26 flat.

As for the Thoro-Graph figures

* Ten Most Wanted got a better TG figure while finishing 9th in the '03 Ky Derby, than Alysheba did while winning his Kentucky Derby.

* Mineshaft, with his loss to Perfect Drift in the Stephen Foster, broke the record for fastest thoro-graph figure ever at the time. It's kind of funny that the all-time fastest TG figure ever, was a figure earned while losing. He obviosly lost quite a bit of ground on both turns, and spotted a lot of weight to Perfect Drift that day.

[46zilzal]

Other things to note about the Ragozin Sheets

* Easy Goer, in the '89 Belmont actually ran the exact same Ragozin figure as Secratariat did in the '73 Belmont Stakes. Even though Big Red's time was two full seconds faster, I guess the Ragozin people had the track much faster in '73. EG has the 2nd fastest Belmont time ever, 2:26 flat.


There were several track records set at Belmont in 1973

[DrugSalvastore]

Here is a better one---Greeley's Galaxy got a 3.75 on thoro-graph for his 11th place finish in this year's Derby. From 1982-to-1994 only one Derby winner had run a faster Thoro-Graph figure than Greeley's Galaxy in the Kentucky Derby. Spend A Buck got a 3.25 when he won the '85 Kentucky Derby.

So, if you believe Thoro-Graph numbers, you have to believe that Giacomo would have obliterated any of the those older Derby winners. In fairness to TG figures, they have been outspoken that horses have become much faster over the years due to better nutrition, medicine, drugs, and selective breeding.

If anyone thinks I'm making this up--go to www.thorograph.com (http://www.thorograph.com) and click on archives. They have the numbers for all the past Derby horses in that section.

It's my opinion that horses have become a lot faster--but not nearly as much as the TG figures suggest. They have some moderate claimers running numbers that would have won Gr1's in the 80's...that's just silly.

[JPinMaryland]

What is Canonero II doing on that list? I thought he only won a few races his four year old year and only one stakes race. I thought he was not the same after the Belmont stakes.

A few years earlier and you could add Swaps to that list.

Gun Bow had a great 4 yr old campaign in 1964 I guess when he went head to head w/ Kelso four times and won twice. First was when he was given an 8 lb wt advantage but next two times at equal wts he won one and lost another by a nose. The final race was on grass wht was it the Washington Invitational or something, that Kelso won handily. The two horses finished the year ranked equal weights.

[JPinMaryland]

I think Ack Ack another one that could have made the list.