Im Shocked!

[McSchell_Racing]

Something I think is way of base,I have my horses at the training center beside Calder. Calder makes me bring my horse thu the gate from the training center by 1030am on the day of the race, Doesnt matter if its 300pm postime, What I dont get is how do they think you can milkshake a horse in their receiving barn? I got my horse ready for his race,I was in race 10..I took him out at the 2nd call to walk him around ready to leave on the 3rd call..Low and behold, Here comes the state vet running toward me and I look behind me and there is 4 securty guards rushing up behind me..stopped me cold in the shed, Took my horse and jammed a needle in him...I was utterly shocked...They were testing for milkshakes...Geeze I have only run 4 horses and just because this certain horse ran and got beat a lip at 7-1 his last start after not hitting the board in a year!! , I guess they think Im some sort of " Juice" trainer..My poor horse got shookup over this procedure and Im told the "Track president" picked who gets tested.I am also told that the majority of horses tested for milkshakes are from the training center.I think they are way off base!

[PaceAdvantage]

Welcome to the jungle....

[hurrikane]

you can't have it both ways. If you want a level playing field you have to open yourself up to scrutiny.

They could have done a better job of this but...

As far as I'm concerned, test every horse.

[takeout]

Racing does seem to be making some attempt to clean itself up a little lately. I applaud that.

A couple of other suggestions that leap to mind:
1. Quit letting people run horses in other people’s names.
2. All disciplinary actions should be in full view of the public at all times.

[Dancer's Image]

I agree, it is way off base, but I am not shocked. Horseracing, it seems, does very little right these days, just another example of a poor system. I agree with hurrikane to test all the horses or none of them, but to test one particular horse right before post time is most certainly wrong and unfair, not only to you, but to us bettors! Let us know if you get this system changed.

[McSchell_Racing]

Welcome to the jungle....

LMAO PA, The training center beside Calder is nickednamed "Vietnam" where I have my horses.

[Suff]

LMAO PA, The training center beside Calder is nickednamed "Vietnam" where I have my horses.


Did I miss it? You had one going yesterday and you did'nt give us a heads up? That Horse wins and I'd of never spoken to you again!... :D

Thats rule one.... Horse players do like to get the skinny on where you spotted him.. and why... Rider...instructions or plan?

You don't have to give way the farm... But you got one ready to go, you should drop us a dime on that Mcshell!

What happened?

[McSchell_Racing]

Did I miss it? You had one going yesterday and you did'nt give us a heads up? That Horse wins and I'd of never spoken to you again!... :D

Thats rule one.... Horse players do like to get the skinny on where you spotted him.. and why... Rider...instructions or plan?

You don't have to give way the farm... But you got one ready to go, you should drop us a dime on that Mcshell!

What happened?

Seems all of you have missed it, Have run 4 horses now Suff..Everyone is ga-ga over NYRA and Im just here trying to win a race, Honestly Suff I dont brag on my horses,They usually speak for themselves..I do have my 2yo filly SAUCY BRITCHES running in her first race tomorrow, Race is only 4 1/2 furlongs, She has soft works as I havent really asked her for a lot a little old time training into her, She is good out of the gate,Im not looking to win, Just give he some experence, She should be ready for this distance

[Suff]

Suff..Everyone is ga-ga over NYRA and Im just here trying to win a race,

It is Funny that in the middle of your "lil-bo-peep"....I'm just a little guy, you still managed to reach up and slap NYRA one!...... :lol:

Whats the matter, No one will work in company with your 4?, Your getting no respect in the morning and thier stabbing your horse's in the paddock! Your all beat up and feeling small tonight?

I've seen you spread your record out here, and your training prowness as well..! You have a chest.

I wish you the best. I know, you know I was kidding you. I hope you win every one you send out. Let me know though so I can watch the race. After watching him run, I can advise you where to spot them next! lol I'll get your picture taken!

[kenwoodallpromos]

The track vet there is another one who suspects all high % trainers!
Good luck and I know you get all your horses ready. That is why they are dependable and stay heathy.

[KingChas]

Mcschell-How you and Lisa doing?Been a while since I talked with you.Last I heard you had claimed a horse that came up lame after the race.You now have 4.Can you tell me (the rest) of their names?Always liked to put your horses on my HTW list.PM if you would like?Best of Luck to you and the stable.-KC

PS; Saucy Britches-what a great name :D

[KingChas]

My poor horse got shookup over this procedure and Im told the "Track president" picked who gets tested.I am also told that the majority of horses tested for milkshakes are from the training center.I think they are way off base!

Another fret for us handicappers-Now not only do we have to worry about juiced horses,but now spooked horses before the race.Another insiders info we will never know.Its a damm shame the animals are taking the abuse for over-zealous humans.They (horses) don't have a say in the matter. :ThmbDown:

[karlskorner]

Tom;

Someday you are going to have to explain to me why CRC " owes " you better barn area then you now have. Yesterday Saucy Britches wasn't ready for the Paddock and certainly wasn't ready for the race, having trailed most of the distance and finished up the track. I am not questiong your "method" of training, maybe it was your intent to have Saucy Britches run last. I do admire your "safari" hat.

[McSchell_Racing]

Tom;

Someday you are going to have to explain to me why CRC " owes " you better barn area then you now have. Yesterday Saucy Britches wasn't ready for the Paddock and certainly wasn't ready for the race, having trailed most of the distance and finished up the track. I am not questiong your "method" of training, maybe it was your intent to have Saucy Britches run last. I do admire your "safari" hat.

What on earth are you talking about...OWE ME??
For your information Mr Karl,Im not stabled at Calder??.Yes I do agree with you that she wasnt fit enough,ALSO said she had "soft works",She got some insite and got to come out of the gate with the rest of them, She was perfect in the paddock, she was perfect in the gate, She broke with the field, To me she did very well,She will now go back to the farm and grow and have time to mature, FUNNY how you dont mention anything when a horse of mine runs well,oR you dont say anything about a horse I claimed, I would love to meet you , Say hey next time your there..

[skate]

ran just like you said it would.


thanks

[JustMissed]

Sometime in the past you said you have to have a pal of yours listed as trainer so you could run your horses at Calder. Now I see that you are listed as trainer.

Congrats to you.

JM


"DANCING REQUIRED fractious behind the gate rearing and falling, was reserved off the pace, raced four wide on the turn, angled in for the drive and took over inside the eight pole edging away under pressure. FABULOUS HONOR steadied early after breaking awkwardly, rallied belatedly to just get up for the place. ENCHANT ME chased the speed off the rail and lacked the needed late response. SECOND OF MAY rallied belatedly after bobbling at the start. SHARENSKI steadied at the start, improved position without threatening. NATURAL INSTINCT set the pace three wide to just past the furlong marker and tired. SWIFT FALCON hit the gate, tracked the speed into the turn and steadied, angled in for the drive and faltered. SAUCY BRITCHES trailed.

Owners: 4 - Samnic Stable; 1 - Michael H. Sherman; 5 - Kathy Machesky; 2 - Santoro Moose, Sandra and Homeister, Sr., Rosemary; 6 - Robert C. Roffey, Jr.; 7 - Running Horse Farms, Inc.; 1A - Michael H. Sherman; 3 - McSchell Racing
Trainers: 4 - Stephen L. DiMauro; 1 - Angel C. Salinas; 5 - Richard J. Ciardullo, Jr.; 2 - Rosemary Homeister, Sr.; 6 - David L. Muench; 7 - Norman R. Pointer; 1A - Angel C. Salinas; 3 - Thomas R. Schell
Breeders: 4 - Padua Stables (FL); 1 - Farnsworth Farms (FL); 5 - Laura K. Howell (FL); 2 - Joyce S. Corwin (FL); 6 - Robert C. Roffey Jr. (FL); 7 - Majestic Farms, LLC (KY); 1A - Farnsworth Farms (FL); 3 - Twin Gables Farm (FL)
Claimed: Natural Instinct by Catalano, Michael and Tita, John (Michael L. Catalano, Jr.)

[Doc]

I have to agree with McShell that the tactics used by the vets and security with his horse were a little extreme - there's gotta be a more professional way of doing things.

And just an observation...I can't for the life of me understand why McShell continues to post on this board, considering his posts are followed by some pretty nasty responses. If that was me, I'd find another forum...maybe over with the pretty pony people on Thoroughbred Champions or something similar.

Doc

[McSchell_Racing]

Mcschell-How you and Lisa doing?Been a while since I talked with you.Last I heard you had claimed a horse that came up lame after the race.You now have 4.Can you tell me (the rest) of their names?Always liked to put your horses on my HTW list.PM if you would like?Best of Luck to you and the stable.-KC

PS; Saucy Britches-what a great name :D

Forever Loving
Orka
Royal Lace
Saucy Britches

[Dancer's Image]

I agree with Doc, and I'm glad that McSchell does continue posting here...I've learned a lot from his first hand trainer experiences. I watched the race yesterday and true, his 2 yo filly, Saucy Britches, did not set the world on fire but so what? McSchell never said she would! So she got a 4.5 furlong work yesterday; let's wait and see how she does later this year as she matures!

[JustRalph]

I wanna know who the horse is named after! ;)

[Observer]

Gotta admit I'm just a bit surprised that there has been no complaints about the filly Saucy Britches being sent out by a trainer claiming .. "...Im not looking to win, Just give he some experence..."
Sure, she was 19-1, but people put money on this horse. And yes, trainer's use races as "preps" all the time, but that is a basis for many gripes in this game.


I'm also confused by the following:
"...She will now go back to the farm and grow and have time to mature..."
If the filly was sent out in her debut for a learning experience, I don't understand why she should be put away. By the time she gets back (if this is indeed an extended break), that learning experience will be a distant, most likely non-existant memory for her.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Tom's horses are stabled at the Training Center, not technically on the Calder Race Track.
I would like to know if that means the horse4s are not on the Calder course daily for gallops, etc. and if just being on a different track matters. If so, there may be a handicapping angle there...

[karlskorner]

Tom;

For the past couple months you have been questioning why you couldn't get stable space at CRC, even though you weren't licensed, having recently obtained your Trainers license, I suggested at that time there were several farms here in the Davie area that would take your horses, fortunately you acquired stables at the Training Center, which for all purposes is part of CRC. What happened with the State Vet, can best be explained by the her. You felt that Saucy Britches was calm and collected in the paddock area, I felt that the kidney sweat looked like it came from a "Reddi Wip" can and the young lady leading her ( your wife I assume ) had problems leading her. A good idea to send Saucy Britches back to the farm. I will look for you the next time you run, I will be one the better dressed people in the paddock area who doesn't look like he came off working the back end of a garbage truck. There was a time ( long past gone ) when people dressed to go to the race track, maybe that's one of the reasons for the decline

[McSchell_Racing]

Tom;

For the past couple months you have been questioning why you couldn't get stable space at CRC, even though you weren't licensed, having recently obtained your Trainers license, I suggested at that time there were several farms here in the Davie area that would take your horses, fortunately you acquired stables at the Training Center, which for all purposes is part of CRC. What happened with the State Vet, can best be explained by the her. You felt that Saucy Britches was calm and collected in the paddock area, I felt that the kidney sweat looked like it came from a "Reddi Wip" can and the young lady leading her ( your wife I assume ) had problems leading her. A good idea to send Saucy Britches back to the farm. I will look for you the next time you run, I will be one the better dressed people in the paddock area who doesn't look like he came off working the back end of a garbage truck. There was a time ( long past gone ) when people dressed to go to the race track, maybe that's one of the reasons for the decline

Geeze the insults?????... Have you noticed all the rain we have had, You want me to wear a suit to trudge thu the mud, The training center IS NOT part of Calder, IF it was we wouldnt have to go to the recieving barn.Im not one of them trainers that can afford silk suits, Levi's suit me fine.Thanks Karl

[McSchell_Racing]

Gotta admit I'm just a bit surprised that there has been no complaints about the filly Saucy Britches being sent out by a trainer claiming ..
Sure, she was 19-1, but people put money on this horse. And yes, trainer's use races as "preps" all the time, but that is a basis for many gripes in this game.


I'm also confused by the following:

If the filly was sent out in her debut for a learning experience, I don't understand why she should be put away. By the time she gets back (if this is indeed an extended break), that learning experience will be a distant, most likely non-existant memory for her.

Very good questions,Lots of young horses are driven into the ground,Breaking down after a couple of races, In the old days a young 2yo was never run untill the fall of his 2yo year, Now it seems trainers and owners want their 2yo to go that 22 sec 1/4,Cooking them in the process as their bones are soft and many end up with buck shins and bowed tendons because the horses bone mass is growing faster then muscle ,therefore young horse getting contracted tendons,sore shins and ankle ossolets.All this is caused from the pounding of the legs as they struggle to maintain speed,I wonder how many horse 2yo's never make it to the races,As for Saucy being a horse to bet on yesterday, That was up to who ever wanted to bet on her, Her soft works 39 4/5b 38 4/5b 37gb 1/2 53b were very soft,She wont forget that race and she will now know what she is here for when she comes back,She will be more aggressive on herself and train better,Yes it was a learning experince for her.

[JPinMaryland]

well Im glad Mcshell posts, since I have no firsthand experience of what horsetraining is all about it is very informative for someone like me.

Any comments on the kidney sweat and the control of the horse that Karl mentioned?

Best of luck to you Mr. Schell.

[ezpace]

We're you the rude snob iby the paddock yesterday before Saucy Britches race wearing the pink suit and yellow tie holding PeeWee Hermans hand.?

[PaceAdvantage]

Lots of young horses are driven into the ground,Breaking down after a couple of races.

Is this actually true? Define "lots"

I don't buy it.

[PaceAdvantage]

We're you the rude snob iby the paddock yesterday before Saucy Britches race wearing the pink suit and yellow tie holding PeeWee Hermans hand.?

19 posts in over a year, and this is the best you can do?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sorry about the long cut and paste; Thbis from the Louisiana Thoroughbred Breeder's Association:
"The Dilemma of Buck Shins
in the Race Horse

by: Daniel J. Burba, DVM, Dipl. ACVS

One of the most common problems that young race horses develop is bucked shins. It has been reported that 70% of young Thoroughbred racehorses in training develop the problem. Buck shins are commonly accepted by veterinarians, trainers, and owners as a normal training event in young Thoroughbreds. Buck shins usually occur in 2 year-old race horses during the first six months of their training. The estimated losses to the industry as a result of the problem exceed $10 million/yr. Approximately 12% of horses that develop buck shins go on to have stress or saucer fractures later. Technology has recently allowed a better understanding of the disorder. Training appears to play a major role in its development."

[chrisg]

Sorry about the long cut and paste; Thbis from the Louisiana Thoroughbred Breeder's Association:
"The Dilemma of Buck Shins
in the Race Horse

by: Daniel J. Burba, DVM, Dipl. ACVS

One of the most common problems that young race horses develop is bucked shins. It has been reported that 70% of young Thoroughbred racehorses in training develop the problem. Buck shins are commonly accepted by veterinarians, trainers, and owners as a normal training event in young Thoroughbreds. Buck shins usually occur in 2 year-old race horses during the first six months of their training. The estimated losses to the industry as a result of the problem exceed $10 million/yr. Approximately 12% of horses that develop buck shins go on to have stress or saucer fractures later. Technology has recently allowed a better understanding of the disorder. Training appears to play a major role in its development."

Too bad common sense hasn't.

[McSchell_Racing]

Is this actually true? Define "lots"

I don't buy it.

Yes PA,LOTS of these young horses break down,In the world of yearlings that cost thousands and maybe millions of dollars you dont have this problem as bad as the hundreds of very cheap yearling, Im convinced poor breeding to back yard studs and cheap mares make this a problem, Mainly comformation,If you look in the form, Yu will see lot of babies that were sold for 1k 2k 5k,Look at the Ocala aug sale...cheap horses...When you have a young horse that cost a lot of money this hopfully isnt going to happen as the young horse gets the best of everything, When you have cheap horses,LOTS of people wont take the time to slowly develop them.I couldnt give you numbers, I am talking from experience

[PaceAdvantage]

If you can't give me numbers, then how can you use the word "lots."

What is lots? 3 out of every 6? 1 out of every 5?

[Observer]

I still just don't get it. What was the point of putting a start into her now?? Was the plan all along to give her time after her debut, or did something change to make the time off the best option?

If the plan going into the debut was to give her time after the race to mature and develop, I just can not understand starting her, then giving her time off. Horses learn best by repetition. If she needed time, why not just let her take the time now.

If the plan changed after her debut, and a decision was made following the race to give her time, I can understand that.

But she just never seemed like she was really given a chance for her debut, anyway. But maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole situation.

[JustMissed]

If you can't give me numbers, then how can you use the word "lots."

What is lots? 3 out of every 6? 1 out of every 5?


Someone on another thread asked about a favorite horse and found out it had broken down and died.

They gave the pedigree site and I looked up one of my favorite sprinters, Baby Shark, because I had him on my watch list and he had not run in some months. Well, sad to say, he broke down and died in October.

I attended quite a few of the Tampa live races and recall 3 breakdowns and deaths and I am sure there were more. Not that many considering they usually have 500 or more runners a week.

It would seem to me that Tom could produce the number of breakdowns/deaths by age at least. I'm sure the jockey club or equibase keeps those stats.

JM

[Observer]

That was me, regarding Is It True Mex .. I knew he had broken down, just not his status.

Maybe racing should have an "Injury Report" like they do in the NFL.

[Wiley]

With 70% bucked shins in still developing two year olds and the tendency toward fractures later on, the only reason I can see to run these types is economics - try to get an early purse to offset training costs. Seems to fit here. I would also think developing the horse's confidence is more important than just throwing a race in them for experience sake.

[Observer]

...developing the horse's confidence is more important than just throwing a race in them for experience sake.

But this is part of where I'm confused with this .. the filly didn't seem like she was given much chance going in .. which to me would not give the horse the best chance to acquire confidence from this start.

[Dr. Carter]

Very good questions,Lots of young horses are driven into the ground,Breaking down after a couple of races, In the old days a young 2yo was never run untill the fall of his 2yo year, Now it seems trainers and owners want their 2yo to go that 22 sec 1/4,Cooking them in the process as their bones are soft and many end up with buck shins and bowed tendons because the horses bone mass is growing faster then muscle ,therefore young horse getting contracted tendons,sore shins and ankle ossolets.All this is caused from the pounding of the legs as they struggle to maintain speed,I wonder how many horse 2yo's never make it to the races,As for Saucy being a horse to bet on yesterday, That was up to who ever wanted to bet on her, Her soft works 39 4/5b 38 4/5b 37gb 1/2 53b were very soft,She wont forget that race and she will now know what she is here for when she comes back,She will be more aggressive on herself and train better,Yes it was a learning experince for her.


Actually in the "old days" horses started much earlier in the year. However the processes of raising horses and the theories behind training and racing them were much different. Sad fact is that these days most trainers have no clue about horses.

[Dancer's Image]

Actually in the "old days" horses started much earlier in the year. However the processes of raising horses and the theories behind training and racing them were much different. Sad fact is that these days most trainers have no clue about horses.

Define "most"! I just don't buy it! Does most mean 51% or 99%? If you can't give us numbers then how can you use the word "most"?

Of course I am making fun of PA, not really asking these questions. PA would never treat you, Dr. Carter, or anyone this way, except McSchell. Which proves Doc's point...it is surprising that McSchell continues to post here!

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey DI, if you're fine with PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS throwing out phrases left and right and not being able to back them up with any substance, that's fine by me. I hold McSchell to a higher standard. My bad, I guess. I thought he could provide an answer to my inquiry, being that he's a trainer and all.

I don't believe for a minute that "Lots of young horses are driven into the ground,Breaking down after a couple of races."

Unless of course your definition of "Breaking Down" and "Lots" is different than my definition. Do you include "bucked shins" in the "broken down" category?

Perhaps I should run all my replies through Dancer's Image first, for approval, before having them publicly posted?

[PaceAdvantage]

Sad fact is that these days most trainers have no clue about horses.

Yeah, you're probably right, especially when compared to the Monday Morning armchair trainers who post on internet message boards with amazing 20/20 hindsight vision, criticizing actual trainers who are out there day in and day out mixing it up.

I mean, seriously, where do you people get off making these bold, sweeping statements?


"Lots of young horses break down"
"Most trainers these days have no clue about horses"
It's laughable. And I'M the bad guy when I call you out on these statements?

If I'm totally off the mark, put me in my place. Prove your point. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, which is one of the reasons I challenge statements like these. I want to learn the facts behind the "beliefs." Sometimes, when you search out the facts, you realize that long held beliefs are in fact way off the mark.

[Dancer's Image]

If I'm totally off the mark, put me in my place. Prove your point. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, which is one of the reasons I challenge statements like these. I want to learn the facts behind the "beliefs." Sometimes, when you search out the facts, you realize that long held beliefs are in fact way off the mark.

Ok, you're totally off the mark! In post #25, McSchell uses the term "lots of horses", which can be reasonably defined as >5 and <infinity. You call him out in post # 28 and McSchell makes a very reasonable and polite reply to you in post #32 and you jump all over him again in the very next post. You are an ill-mannered brute, PA. Now that is your place and there you shall stay until you apologise to McSchell.

[Kreed]

Hey, i agree with you, trainers do vary. we all know how easy Frankel has it.
All the regal breds w/ regal owners who employ the best shoers/vets/walkers/
nutritionists/barns/diet/exercise centers/plane & van transports/feed & hay/
barn sweepers & sundries. the sundries = Anything Needed with NO REGARD
for its costs. When you account for all regal overhead, its so great to see
the small trainer with small stock @ small tracks. man, i salute the McSchells
in OUR game. it takes a real love of the horse.

[karlskorner]

A definition of " A Lot " from a rather lenghty article by Brian Kelly, D.V.M. over on TB Times.

" It has been estimated that 70% to 80% ( or more ) of young horses in training develop bucked shins to a greater or lesser degree. Both front shins are usually involed, but occasionally it is only one. The horse may show lameness a week to ten days before the shin responds to finger pressure "

Thats 2 different VETS ( above and here ) stating the percentage rather than an actual figue that you require.

[karlskorner]

The name is Tom Shell ( the Mc comes from his wife's maiden name ) as he informed me last week by PM when one of his charges came in 2nd on 6/10 in the 7th at CRC.

My God, he only has his Trainers license less than 90 days, he apparently has been around the backstretch in one capacity or another for a period of time, yet from the comments you would think he has been a Trainer for 20 years. There IS a big difference beteen Trainer and backstretch help.and I am quite sure he has learned a lot, but as of now, he has yet to win his first race.

I have no fault with Tom Shell, and I am quite sure he will go on to be a succesful trainer, my comment on the horse he entered Tuesday was from my observation in the paddock, the horse did not belong there.

[GeTydOn]

A definition of " A Lot " from a rather lenghty article by Brian Kelly, D.V.M. over on TB Times.

" It has been estimated that 70% to 80% ( or more ) of young horses in training develop bucked shins to a greater or lesser degree. Both front shins are usually involed, but occasionally it is only one. The horse may show lameness a week to ten days before the shin responds to finger pressure "

Thats 2 different VETS ( above and here ) stating the percentage rather than an actual figue that you require.

Where does it say this happens more now than "back in the day"???

[karlskorner]

Your in the wrong tread, the article was written in the past 2 months, that I guess that qualifies as "now"

[Dr. Carter]

Yeah, you're probably right, especially when compared to the Monday Morning armchair trainers who post on internet message boards with amazing 20/20 hindsight vision, criticizing actual trainers who are out there day in and day out mixing it up.

I mean, seriously, where do you people get off making these bold, sweeping statements?


"Lots of young horses break down"
"Most trainers these days have no clue about horses"
It's laughable. And I'M the bad guy when I call you out on these statements?

If I'm totally off the mark, put me in my place. Prove your point. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, which is one of the reasons I challenge statements like these. I want to learn the facts behind the "beliefs." Sometimes, when you search out the facts, you realize that long held beliefs are in fact way off the mark.


I wish that I was only a monday morning trainer sometimes, hours would be much better. Fact is that most trainers are clueless. Kids get out of college and think they can train. Owners win a few races and think they can train. They'll give a trainer license to anyone these days.
BTW- I may not be a famous trainer, but I'm sure that most of you guys have heard of me.

[Suff]

Back in the day there was a saying:

Only two people make money on the backside. The ice man and the bookie.

ICE was the treatment. Still is. Every barn has there own ice machine.

Now, there are any number of treatments and training methods. It's what you can afford. They have one treament where the VET fills the leg up with a fluid? , the skin blows up like a beach ball around the bone, and they actually go in and file down the bone. Right in the stall.

If you shave a Bone....it can grow back to quickly if a horse is over excercising.. The stress forces the bone to grow quicker, with a weaker mass. A horse of some worth will swim the bone back to strength. Less Stress.

[GeTydOn]

Your in the wrong tread, the article was written in the past 2 months, that I guess that qualifies as "now"

This thread talked about how trainers these days don't know about horses. How am I in the wrong "tread"??

[karlskorner]

Sorry about that, you are in the right tread, I was up early this morning to go watch some workouts, time to go to bed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ok, you're totally off the mark! In post #25, McSchell uses the term "lots of horses", which can be reasonably defined as >5 and <infinity. You call him out in post # 28 and McSchell makes a very reasonable and polite reply to you in post #32 and you jump all over him again in the very next post. You are an ill-mannered brute, PA. Now that is your place and there you shall stay until you apologise to McSchell.

Apologize for what? Asking him to clarify his bold sweeping statement?

You guys still haven't given me anything to chew on. >5 and less than infiinity? What kind of crap is that?

[PaceAdvantage]

A definition of " A Lot " from a rather lenghty article by Brian Kelly, D.V.M. over on TB Times.

" It has been estimated that 70% to 80% ( or more ) of young horses in training develop bucked shins to a greater or lesser degree. Both front shins are usually involed, but occasionally it is only one. The horse may show lameness a week to ten days before the shin responds to finger pressure "

Thats 2 different VETS ( above and here ) stating the percentage rather than an actual figue that you require.

There you go! You learn something new every day. I did not realize that bucked shins was the equivalent of breaking down. (Tom did use the phrase breaking down, did he not?)

Now I know. :eek: (huh?)

[PaceAdvantage]

My God, he only has his Trainers license less than 90 days, he apparently has been around the backstretch in one capacity or another for a period of time, yet from the comments you would think he has been a Trainer for 20 years. There IS a big difference beteen Trainer and backstretch help.and I am quite sure he has learned a lot, but as of now, he has yet to win his first race.

Tom's been a trainer a lot longer than he's had his license, by his own admission. It's just that his horses ran under someone else's name. I never figured out the exact reason why, but I'm sure someone can explain it....

Tom's no newbie....I would never be an "ill-mannered brute" to a newbie.

[McSchell_Racing]

The name is Tom Shell ( the Mc comes from his wife's maiden name ) as he informed me last week by PM when one of his charges came in 2nd on 6/10 in the 7th at CRC.

My God, he only has his Trainers license less than 90 days, he apparently has been around the backstretch in one capacity or another for a period of time, yet from the comments you would think he has been a Trainer for 20 years. There IS a big difference beteen Trainer and backstretch help.and I am quite sure he has learned a lot, but as of now, he has yet to win his first race.

I have no fault with Tom Shell, and I am quite sure he will go on to be a succesful trainer, my comment on the horse he entered Tuesday was from my observation in the paddock, the horse did not belong there.

My Dear Karl..YOU are soooo misinformed about my past..LMAO at having my trainers licence 90 day!!..I have held a trainers licence since june of 82,As for NEVER winning a race..YOU are wrong again my friend, Perhaps you should see my book of past winners,Perhaps you dont want to believe..PA there is a van loading 3 times a week from Calder taking broke down babies back to the farm..Just yesterday the horse ambulance was there offing a 2yo that broke his knee in a race, Also was a babie last week finished 3rd and broke down..That van to Ocala is full 3 times a week...Maybe you need to understand the Calder track as it is very hard on young horses..Karl Im very surprised at you and how you seem to percieve me, I didnt see you say anything about me claiming Orka who hadnt hit the board in almost a year..PROCINO telling everyone I would eat him..I invite to my barn I didnt see you tell these guys he got beat a whisker after him and the other horse were 13 lengths in front of the field.Took them 10 mins to sort out the picture....I dont see you telling them that the horse was 7-1..Tell me Karl, Your the expert..You dont have a clue when you speak about me! PS Karl its Schell..not Shell

[kenwoodallpromos]

Does CRC being hard on young horses have to do with the track depth? I have read that in addition to jarring by hard tracks, too deep tracks can cause more leg problems than a more "normal" medium depth track.

[McSchell_Racing]

A definition of " A Lot " from a rather lenghty article by Brian Kelly, D.V.M. over on TB Times.

" It has been estimated that 70% to 80% ( or more ) of young horses in training develop bucked shins to a greater or lesser degree. Both front shins are usually involed, but occasionally it is only one. The horse may show lameness a week to ten days before the shin responds to finger pressure "

Thats 2 different VETS ( above and here ) stating the percentage rather than an actual figue that you require.

70 to 80% = A LOT

[kingfin66]

Tom;

...I will be one the better dressed people in the paddock area who doesn't look like he came off working the back end of a garbage truck. There was a time ( long past gone ) when people dressed to go to the race track, maybe that's one of the reasons for the decline

Sheesh. What kind of degenerate horseplayer are you Karl? LOL. Seriously though, I always enjoy seeing past footage of sporting events and seeing everybody dressed up and wearing hats.

[kingfin66]

I'm kind of surprised by all the sniping back and forth in this thread and demands for statistics to back up assertions. When Tom says that lots of young horses break down, he is making an observation based on his knowledge and experience. Does every statement made have to be backed up by empirical data, or can they sometimes be accepted based on anecdotal observation. If I say that Rasheed Wallace (Detroit Pistons) is a hotheaded jerk, do I have to back it up with his record of technical fouls? Many - can we say many? - young horses do break down. I have always assumed that when a horse runs one or two races as a 2yo and disappears for several months, that it is probably on a pasture somewhere recovering from racing injuries.

PA - You're not an ill-mannered brute, but you do pick some interesting spots to take a stance against something.

Tom Schell - I appreciate the insight that you provide into racing. I have no idea how you make a living training 4 horses, but more power to you for doing it. You must really love the game.

Oh well, that's about all I have to say here. Got some races to handicap and a Costco run to make, then a workout. A busy day really...

[Dancer's Image]

PA - You're not an ill-mannered brute, but you do pick some interesting spots to take a stance against something.

Kingfin,
You have very low standards!

[kingfin66]

Kingfin,
You have very low standards!

Whatever you say DI.

[PaceAdvantage]

Dancer's Image likes to mix it up with me every now and then. I can't quite figure out why, but maybe it has its origin at an earlier time on this board. Who knows? It's ok, I can dish it out, and I can take it....no problemo....

Now, back to the question at hand. I am now under the assumption that those arguing with me here on this thread consider bucked shins "breaking down"....is this correct?

The reason I am being a stubborn pain in the ass here is that I don't like to hear people proclaim that "lots of 2yo horses break down after a few races" without facts to back this up. I don't like to hear people state that "most trainers don't know what they're doing" without backing up the statement. These are SERIOUS statements being made here....not stuff I can easily let fly without a retort.

If lots of 2yo horses are breaking down, something is TERRIBLY wrong. If it is only happening at Calder, then track management should be contacted IMMEDIATELY, not only by concerned fans such as myself, but by horsemen who are putting their charges at risk on an unsafe racetrack.

If it is an industry wide problem, then let's figure out the solution. Quite frankly, I am unaware of any widespread breakdowns of 2yos. That's why I ask for a definition of "lots" so I know where I stand with my own thinking on what "lots" really means.

Get it?

And while we're at it, ponder this:

Some folks like to harken back to an earlier time, when "Trainers were trainers" and "Horses were horses"

How are you guys so sure that horses weren't breaking down "a lot" back then? I believe we have established that 2yos were NOT raced as hard and as early as they are nowadays.....

Can you assume that if 2yos WERE raced as early and as hard "back then" as they are today, that they wouldn't be facing the SAME physical ailments that you guys are claiming abound in today's game.

[Wiley]

PA,
Actually earlier in this thread, Dr. Carter, who sounds like he or she has/had experience with this, said horses years ago started racing earlier in their 2 year old seasons then today. Me being a described 'armchair' trainer thought like others that this was not the case. A quick puruse by me of some hall of fame horses from the past backs up Dr. Carter's statement. I don't have a clue on 2 year old breakdown numbers from the past maybe the good Dr. can supply some insight.
I would not consider 'bucked' shins a breakdown given that most horses can recover and race after they occur. Maybe the definition of a breakdown should be 'nonrecoverable' to describe one that can't come back and an injury for horses that just need time/rest/recuperation to come back to the track.

[PaceAdvantage]

My apologies to Dr. Carter then, as I had forgotten what he had said, and my knowledge of racing in the "old days" is limited at best.

This kind of proves my point that when a little research is done, some people's beliefs are rendered null and void....

Now then, how can we be sure that horses were not breaking down as often (specifically 2yos, as that is the basis of discussion here) back in the "good ol' days?" I believe we can not be sure.

[chrisg]

PA,
...A quick puruse by me of some hall of fame horses from the past backs up Dr. Carter's statement.

Who were they? And how early were they running?

Thanks
:)

[skate]

it would be fine with me if everyone had to have exact numbers to have agood idea about any situation.

i find that necessity, to have exact numbers, to be "frankly" a real waste and most likely (since im not on exactnesses) an excellent reason for being confussed about TB racing.

thats from my book


if the man is telling me something about horses and uses the word "lots" i either believe him for who or what he is, or i dont believe him.

i think i believe him.

and the horse ran the way he said it would.

[Dancer's Image]

Okay, this is what McSchell originally said...

Very good questions,Lots of young horses are driven into the ground,Breaking down after a couple of races, In the old days a young 2yo was never run untill the fall of his 2yo year, Now it seems trainers and owners want their 2yo to go that 22 sec 1/4,Cooking them in the process as their bones are soft and many end up with buck shins and bowed tendons because the horses bone mass is growing faster then muscle ,therefore young horse getting contracted tendons,sore shins and ankle ossolets.All this is caused from the pounding of the legs as they struggle to maintain speed,I wonder how many horse 2yo's never make it to the races

...And PA replied......

Is this actually true? Define "lots" I don't buy it.


...McSchell answered you very politely and professionally...

Yes PA,LOTS of these young horses break down,In the world of yearlings that cost thousands and maybe millions of dollars you dont have this problem as bad as the hundreds of very cheap yearling, Im convinced poor breeding to back yard studs and cheap mares make this a problem, Mainly comformation,If you look in the form, Yu will see lot of babies that were sold for 1k 2k 5k,Look at the Ocala aug sale...cheap horses...When you have a young horse that cost a lot of money this hopfully isnt going to happen as the young horse gets the best of everything, When you have cheap horses,LOTS of people wont take the time to slowly develop them.I couldnt give you numbers, I am talking from experience

...And again you jump all over him for using the word "lots"...

If you can't give me numbers, then how can you use the word "lots."
What is lots? 3 out of every 6? 1 out of every 5?


...Actually, "lots" is a very descriptive term for this discussion, and both of your examples, 3 out of 6 (50%) and 1 out of 5 (20%), would be included in the term "lots".
"Lots" means it is not just an isolated happening that McSchell has observed in his >20 years of training. This is why I'm mixing it up with you, PA, why I call you an ill-mannered brute, because you're being unfair to McSchell in this thread by arguing semantics over the use of the word "lots". McSchell has explained his position and it makes sense to me; if you disagree with it, then disagree with it, don't quibble about semantics with him. But there is hope for you, PA, just today you apologised to Dr. Carter. But of course that was after Dr. Carter posted this.....

BTW- I may not be a famous trainer, but I'm sure that most of you guys have heard of me.

...I don't know you, PA, but I've got you figured out. McSchell is a nobody, a small-time trainer in your book, you can be rude, ill-mannered, and unfair to him, but this Dr. Carter guy may be someone so you'd better apologise to him. I'm here to make sure that you're fair to everyone; if you knew who I was, you wouldn't dare argue with me. DI

ps. I'm your conscience

[skate]

youre cracking me up man


are we talking "moon shot here" or TB racing?

[PaceAdvantage]

...I don't know you, PA, but I've got you figured out. McSchell is a nobody, a small-time trainer in your book, you can be rude, ill-mannered, and unfair to him, but this Dr. Carter guy may be someone so you'd better apologise to him. I'm here to make sure that you're fair to everyone; if you knew who I was, you wouldn't dare argue with me. DI

ps. I'm your conscience

Uh oh. Now I must be in trouble.

Exactly how was I rude, ill-mannered and unfair to McSchell? Because I asked him what "lots" really means? Because I challenged his broad strokes? That's how I learn...I challenge the assumptions by others that I instinctually disagree with.

And if you have nothing further to contribute, (and believe me, you have contributed nothing so far here) I suggest you move on.

[wes]

Dancer's Image


Are you a belly dancer? lol


wes

[Wiley]

Who were they? And how early were they running?

:)
Obviously a small sample but here goes,
For each horses 2 year old season with first race start date

Citation April 22, 9 starts 1947
Colin May 29, 12 starts 1907
Count Fleet June 1, 15 starts 1942
Equipoise April 7, 16 starts 1930
Exterminator June 30, 4 starts 1917
Forego Did not race as a two year old ran 18 times as a three year old
Kelso Sep 4, 3 starts 1959
Man o' War Jun 6, 10 starts 1919
Nashua May 15, 8 starts 1954
Native Dancer April 19, 9 starts 1952
Secretariat July 4, 9 starts 1972
Swaps May 20, 6 starts 1954
Sysonby July 14, 6 starts 1904
Tom Fool Aug. 13, 7 starts 1951

Reference 1981 The American Racing Manual

Only Forego and Kelso can be considered late starters per Tom's 2 year old fall start date criteria. Those two could have had early developmental problems thus their gelding? Granted a small sample but probably a good representation of the horse population at large unless one can argue the handlers knew all of these were going to be champions so they brought them out early. I only go back to the 70's in following TB racing so as I said before I personally don't have a clue.

[chrisg]

Obviously a small sample but here goes,
For each horses 2 year old season with first race start date

Citation April 22, 9 starts 1947
Colin May 29, 12 starts 1907
Count Fleet June 1, 15 starts 1942
Equipoise April 7, 16 starts 1930
Exterminator June 30, 4 starts 1917
Forego Did not race as a two year old ran 18 times as a three year old
Kelso Sep 4, 3 starts 1959
Man o' War Jun 6, 10 starts 1919
Nashua May 15, 8 starts 1954
Native Dancer April 19, 9 starts 1952
Secretariat July 4, 9 starts 1972
Swaps May 20, 6 starts 1954
Sysonby July 14, 6 starts 1904
Tom Fool Aug. 13, 7 starts 1951

Reference 1981 The American Racing Manual


Thanks Wiley! Those April, May & June debuts really surprised me.

[Dancer's Image]

PA,
Well, since you asked..."Exactly how was I rude, ill-mannered and unfair to McSchell?"

...I already answered that quite clearly in post #68.


And as for this statement of yours..."I challenge the assumptions by others that I instinctually disagree with."

...McSchell is not making "assumptions", he is speaking from experience. You insist, quite unfairly, that McSchell can not use the word "lots" because he does not have an exact number to give you. So McSchell has been a trainer since 1982, and probably worked with horses for 30 years or so already, but because he has not walked around with a notebook and calculator, tabulating the exact number of horses who have broken down, then he can not post from his experiences that lots of 2 yo horses have broken down from aggressive early training/racing regimens? That's ridiculous, PA. By the way, I defined "lots" for you earlier in this thread; one is a single occurrence; two are a couple; three or four are several; and five to infinity are "LOTS". Now you move on, PA...if you want to argue with McSchell that "lots" of 2 yo's don't break down after aggressive training/racing regimens, fine. But quit arguing semantics with him. This is a racing forum, so discuss racing. And you are the moderator/administrator here...you are held to a higher standard and should be fair to all. I'm sure you don't like my contributions here, ie. that you are rude, ill-mannered, and unfair, but contribute I will as long as you continue being so!

[Suff]

PA,
Well, since you asked..."Exactly how was I rude, ill-mannered and unfair to McSchell?"

...I!

stfu already.

[PaceAdvantage]

This is a racing forum, so discuss racing. And you are the moderator/administrator here...you are held to a higher standard and should be fair to all.

Actually, not only am I the admin here, but I also pay all the bills. Therefore, the only standard I am held to is the standard *I* set for myself. In other words, I can act however the hell I damn well please...untill you start sending me some $$ for this place, I don't have to answer to anyone but myself.

Seeing how I've been doing this since 1999, and this place has only gotten bigger over the years, I'd say I'm acting just fine....thank you very much.

[Tom]

Point and game! :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:

(to PA, not Kreed! Derek - ya butted in front of my post!)

[Kreed]

PA... LOL you entertain me. i said many things, NONE of which i would not
post here; i said, i was gonna be too busy to post on my prior regular basis.
READ & stop trying so hard. anyways, diva, play it cool, daddyO.

[Dancer's Image]

"In other words, I can act however the hell I damn well please.."

Well thanks, PA, for agreeing with me! Now we can add selfish and immature to your rude, ill-mannered, brutish persona.

[Bruddah]

A fella builds a great horse racing forum, enjoyed by all. He doesn't ask you for a dime or time to keep it going. The site provides you with excellent information and sources to great handicapping, and that's not enough! Now, you think he must kiss your A$$ and let you set all the standards and rules. If not, then you see it as license to insult and denegrate him, his hobby and forum.

If you don't like how this one is run, start one of your own. Build it one person and viewer at a time. Spend your own money and time and we might post what we don't like about your administration. Try it and then tell us how you like it. What a putz!!

[PaceAdvantage]

"In other words, I can act however the hell I damn well please.."

Well thanks, PA, for agreeing with me! Now we can add selfish and immature to your rude, ill-mannered, brutish persona.

You really must stop kissing my ass...it's unbecoming of you, and quite embarrassing to me!!!

If you must continue with this off-topic banter, I will be forced to eradicate your contributions (or lack thereof) to this thread, so that the rest of us can get back to the questions at hand....I am the admin for heavens sake....people expect me to moderate....

[JustMissed]

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/raceinjury.html

PA, Would you mind going over to this site and posting the table of horse injuries? I tried to but could not get the columns to line up.

Interesting that standard breds and quarter horses suffer from bowed tendons at a higher rate than T-breds.

The truth is out there, somewhere.

Thanks,

JM

[kenwoodallpromos]

Maybe tbred trainers are not as willing to retire them totally as others because of the purses?

[JustMissed]

Ken, I would still like to see the number of horses that breakdown and die or retire. By age and sex would be good info.

JM

[the little guy]

"In other words, I can act however the hell I damn well please.."

Well thanks, PA, for agreeing with me! Now we can add selfish and immature to your rude, ill-mannered, brutish persona.If you think he's rude, ill-mannered and/or brutish you really must have lived one helluva charmed life. And, apparantly, contrary to logic, as this is a horse racing website, you haven't spent much time at the track.

The " selfish " comment really demands explaining.

[JustMissed]

"A group of 169 Australian Thoroughbred yearlings sold at auction were followed for their 2 and 3 year old seasons. Fifty-six percent of these horses lost training days due to lameness. Eighty-five percent of 2-year-old horses lost training days due to injury or illness. Sore shins in 2-year-olds was the cause of 42% of the lost days. Other causes of lost training included fetlock lameness (25%), coughs and nasal discharge (16%), lacerations (13%), foot problems (9%), carpal problems (7%), tying-up (6%), and ligament sprain (5%) (Bailey, et al. Vet Rec 1999;145:487-493). Days lost to training averaged 2.7% of the total training days available."

Will keep looking. Maybe I can find some US stuff.

Looks like the 2yo's do lose a good many days because of soreness.

JM

[RXB]

"if you knew who I was, you wouldn't dare argue with me."

:lol:

Boys and girls, can you say megalomania ?

[kenwoodallpromos]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=2019528&tool=ExternalSearch

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/raceinjury.html

PA, Would you mind going over to this site and posting the table of horse injuries? I tried to but could not get the columns to line up.

Why not just post a link to the thread containing the data OTM Al posted....you can even link to a specific message....

[JustMissed]

Why not just post a link to the thread containing the data OTM Al posted....you can even link to a specific message....


PA, the link I posted earlier worked just fine. http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/raceinjury.html

Who is OTM Al and what did he post? I don't know what you are talking about.

JM

[PaceAdvantage]

Are we talking about the same thing? The table of horse injuries (breakdowns and van offs) and also the table of injuries per trainer.....

What table are you talking about?

The tables I am talking about start appearing at the bottom of this page:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20726&page=2&pp=15

They were posted by OTM Al.

And when I said to you that you should just post a link, I meant post a link on ultimatehorsesite that points to the thread with the OTM Al data.....

How confused are we now? LOL

[JustMissed]

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/raceinjury.html

PA, Would you mind going over to this site and posting the table of horse injuries? I tried to but could not get the columns to line up.

Interesting that standard breds and quarter horses suffer from bowed tendons at a higher rate than T-breds.

The truth is out there, somewhere.

Thanks,

JM

The tables I was talking about are at the ultimatehorsesite.com, referred to by me at my post #82.

I should have been more clear when I asked "PA, Would you mind going over to this site and posting the table of horse injuries? I tried to but could not get the columns to line up."


I think the OTM Al tables are completely different from the table of injuries at ultimatehoresite.com which I thought were pertinent to this tread.

Thanks anyway,

JM

[Dancer's Image]

If you think he's rude, ill-mannered and/or brutish you really must have lived one helluva charmed life. And, apparantly, contrary to logic, as this is a horse racing website, you haven't spent much time at the track.

The " selfish " comment really demands explaining.


little brain,
Your demand, is my command....

"I can act however the hell I damn well please..."

...now surely, you can see that this is an immature, inconsiderate, selfish, and unfair way to view one's relationship with society.

[McSchell_Racing]

Obviously a small sample but here goes,
For each horses 2 year old season with first race start date

Citation April 22, 9 starts 1947
Colin May 29, 12 starts 1907
Count Fleet June 1, 15 starts 1942
Equipoise April 7, 16 starts 1930
Exterminator June 30, 4 starts 1917
Forego Did not race as a two year old ran 18 times as a three year old
Kelso Sep 4, 3 starts 1959
Man o' War Jun 6, 10 starts 1919
Nashua May 15, 8 starts 1954
Native Dancer April 19, 9 starts 1952
Secretariat July 4, 9 starts 1972
Swaps May 20, 6 starts 1954
Sysonby July 14, 6 starts 1904
Tom Fool Aug. 13, 7 starts 1951

Reference 1981 The American Racing Manual

Only Forego and Kelso can be considered late starters per Tom's 2 year old fall start date criteria. Those two could have had early developmental problems thus their gelding? Granted a small sample but probably a good representation of the horse population at large unless one can argue the handlers knew all of these were going to be champions so they brought them out early. I only go back to the 70's in following TB racing so as I said before I personally don't have a clue.

Whats so good about this representation?..Doesnt tell you how MANY 2yo's were training that same year and how many didnt make it. Look at the big outfits that buy them by the truckload,How many babies do you think old outfits like Elemendorf went thu, What about Sprindthrift Farms...How about Farnsworth Farms, Gainsway..I could go on and on, Look at the 2yo fields, Your Proof doesnt give me any hard facts about injuries, All you are showing me is a champion horse with his 2yo stats..
PA..Just because a person cannot give you numbers,The experience in this matter far outweighs your assertions.

[Wiley]

[QUOTE=McSchell_Racing]Whats so good about this representation?..Doesnt tell you how MANY 2yo's were training that same year and how many didnt make it. QUOTE]

I thought I made it pretty clear in my earlier posts, but I guess not. You made the comment in the old day's two year olds started their careers in the fall, which I thought seemed plausible as well. Then Dr. Carter came in and made the comment that was not the case they actually started their 2 year old careers earlier than today. I looked for some evidence to support or refute and found this. Not conclusive of course but at least some representation of the era. Never did I get into the 2 year old breakdown issue other than to say I would not describe 'bucked' shins as a breakdown.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA..Just because a person cannot give you numbers,The experience in this matter far outweighs your assertions.

Just to be clear, the experience that you cite takes place mainly at Calder...this is where you see "lots" of 2yos breaking down....correct? Or are you claiming this to be a nationwide epidemic, of which you have first hand knowledge?

I'm just trying to be crystal clear about this, because this is potentially a very serious problem, and you aren't being very clear with your definitions or explanations.

[PaceAdvantage]

little brain,
Your demand, is my command....

little brain? Isn't that a bit "immature?"

Pot calling kettle black perhaps?

Now, I will kindly ask you again to refrain from posting anymore jibberish here in this thread, you're mucking it up....

[the little guy]

little brain? Isn't that a bit "immature?"

Pot calling kettle black perhaps?

Now, I will kindly ask you again to refrain from posting anymore jibberish here in this thread, you're mucking it up....I would assume the " pot calling the kettle black " reference is to his references to you. I would hate to think you believe my miniscule brain is even remotely similar to his obviously deficient one.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would assume the " pot calling the kettle black " reference is to his references to you.

Bingo.

[Dancer's Image]

PA,
Since you kindly asked, I will not post any more jibberish in this thread. I was asked, no, it was demanded that I explain my "selfish" comment, and I did. And you asked, "Little brain? Isn't that a bit immature?" And I say no, the little brain comment is just stating the reality of a poster asking for an explanation for something that is right there in the post. It takes a little brain to not be able to see the selfish nature of your "I can do whatever the hell I damn well please" comment. And little brain confirms my comment about him by not being capable of understanding your "pot calling the kettle black" post. Thanks for making my point, little brain! Any more questions?

[lsbets]

Remember PA - if you knew who he was, you wouldn't be arguing with him! :lol: :lol:

[the little guy]

Hey scumbag, yeah you, the kind of creep that thinks he's clever calling people childish names while hiding behind his ( or her ) computer, I may be even stupider than you are claiming, but at least I'm smart enough to see sarcasm when I see it.

Apparantly you aren't. But then again, you're saving all you precious brainpower to attempt to show us all how much better than us you are.

Then again, I'm sure we would all quiver in your wake if we knew what important person you are.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Bingo!"
So, PA does that mean you are taking sides?

[PaceAdvantage]

I always take sides.

It's a shame this thread has been destroyed by DI and the posts that followed his (or her) crap. Time to close it...although I really did want to discuss more with McSchell about what is going on out there with 2yos....

Oh well...

[McSchell_Racing]

I always take sides.

It's a shame this thread has been destroyed by DI and the posts that followed his (or her) crap. Time to close it...although I really did want to discuss more with McSchell about what is going on out there with 2yos....

Oh well...

PA, You mentioned some where that you havent been in the horses a real long time,In my experince of of over 30 years, I have seen it all..I have worked for people that had 2yo's that didnt make it,Lots lost their chance on the farm.A trainer will never tell you he had 10 2yo's and only 3 or 4 made it to the races,In todays racing a 2yo MUST be able to do a 10 sec 1/8 or he is dog meat,In todays world MOST of the people that buy the good horses give them 2yo's the best chance,The cheaper babies are taken for just that..These outfits that have large quanities of 2yo's in their stable will train them horses in numbers. Either they make it or break it.Ill bet you have never seen them load them up on a trailer wild out of the field,Herding them into barns that the havent seen since they were very small,DO you know how many get hurt before they are even broke??...30 years and a lot of experience wont change my stance on what I say. Its very easy to watch BELMONT or NYRA horses, But have you ever thought of them cheaper tracks and them cheaper horses.Why do you think we have small fields, TOO many 2yo's in the wrong hands.At least Saucy Britches didnt buck and went to the farm sound to grow

[PaceAdvantage]

Can't argue with anything you just typed McSchell. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for....thanks for bringing this thread back to life!

I know of many horses you will never hear about that have broken down in the mornings at NYRA....one trainer had a bunch go down in the same week a couple of years ago.....but it was never reported, that I know of....

I just didn't think it was a widespread EPIDEMIC among 2yos, as it is being made out to be in this thread. I'm still not sure (without some hard figures) how large this problem is....

Too bad a sport so devoted to numbers can't keep track of such things. I know it's the dirty underbelly of the sport, but I think it deserves attention.

[Observer]

...At least Saucy Britches didnt buck and went to the farm sound to grow

I wish you the best of luck with your filly .. but I still just don't get it. Was the plan to give her time off after her debut made before she actually ran her race .. or did the plan change based on her race? If the plan initially was to give her time following her debut regardless of what happened, I'm just curious .. why start at all .. why not just give her the time to grow???

And for the record, I am a person who does think about the cheaper horses at the cheaper tracks.

[chrisg]

Hey Tom, following along w/what Observer said; I was curious about that too.

First off, I wish you continued success w/your stable. I've got no gripe w/you; I'm just curious.

Earlier in this thread you said "She should be ready for this distance" in regard to Saucy Britches debut. When I looked @ her pedigree, I thought she was bred to go long.

So knowing what you know about the risks of injury, why did you debut her now?

I know it's your business & you don't have to answer; no worries.

Thanks

[McSchell_Racing]

I wish you the best of luck with your filly .. but I still just don't get it. Was the plan to give her time off after her debut made before she actually ran her race .. or did the plan change based on her race? If the plan initially was to give her time following her debut regardless of what happened, I'm just curious .. why start at all .. why not just give her the time to grow???

And for the record, I am a person who does think about the cheaper horses at the cheaper tracks.

I am very glad you are on the cheap horse side, God knows they are the backbone of horseracing, My desision was made to send her back to the farm before her race,She was beaten 15 lengths!.IF you look at the comments from the race,ALL the other horses had bad comments about their behavior at the gate, She loaded perfect, She broke with the field, She ran to the 3/8 ple.When a young horse gets tired, The worse thing you can do is force them n, That is whenthe real damage happens.When you train and train a young horse you need to give them something more,Look at the "Aiken Trials" in South Carolina, A non-betting event for young horses,A horse needs insentive to progress, Now that she has had a race,She will now know why she is at the track when she comes back. She will be more aggressive, easier to get fit and have a yearning to do it again.Saucy is a cheap horse that wont slip thu the cracks, I am giving her every chance just as if she was a million dollar baby

[McSchell_Racing]

Hey Tom, following along w/what Observer said; I was curious about that too.

First off, I wish you continued success w/your stable. I've got no gripe w/you; I'm just curious.

Earlier in this thread you said "She should be ready for this distance" in regard to Saucy Britches debut. When I looked @ her pedigree, I thought she was bred to go long.

So knowing what you know about the risks of injury, why did you debut her now?

I know it's your business & you don't have to answer; no worries.

Thanks

You are the only person that caught that!, Good eye,When they want to go long they will never show you that speed!!

[McSchell_Racing]

Can't argue with anything you just typed McSchell. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for....thanks for bringing this thread back to life!

I know of many horses you will never hear about that have broken down in the mornings at NYRA....one trainer had a bunch go down in the same week a couple of years ago.....but it was never reported, that I know of....

I just didn't think it was a widespread EPIDEMIC among 2yos, as it is being made out to be in this thread. I'm still not sure (without some hard figures) how large this problem is....

Too bad a sport so devoted to numbers can't keep track of such things. I know it's the dirty underbelly of the sport, but I think it deserves attention.

Well now we are back to your question to me..How many is a bunch and how many is many?

[PaceAdvantage]

Aren't you curious how things are around the rest of the country? I'm not sure Calder and southern Florida can be considered the model for the rest of the country...

Plus, yes, it would be helpful to have some actual statistics to juggle....but I'm a numbers man...you'll have to excuse me....

[kenwoodallpromos]

Maybe the other ("bananas")Tom knows how much a bunch is!LOL!

[Dancer's Image]

Can't argue with anything you just typed McSchell. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for....thanks for bringing this thread back to life!

I know of many horses you will never hear about that have broken down in the mornings at NYRA....one trainer had a bunch go down in the same week a couple of years ago.....but it was never reported, that I know of....

I just didn't think it was a widespread EPIDEMIC among 2yos, as it is being made out to be in this thread. I'm still not sure (without some hard figures) how large this problem is....

Too bad a sport so devoted to numbers can't keep track of such things. I know it's the dirty underbelly of the sport, but I think it deserves attention.

PA,
In spite of your claims that I have somehow ruined this thread by pointing out your boorish behavior, you have nevertheless progressed to the point where you can discuss this with McSchell, hell, you actually thanked him! He actually posted the same thing he posted before, ie...."I have seen it all..I have worked for people that had 2yo's that didnt make it,Lots lost their chance on the farm."...and you didn't assault him this time for using the word "lots".

[McSchell_Racing]

Aren't you curious how things are around the rest of the country? I'm not sure Calder and southern Florida can be considered the model for the rest of the country...

Plus, yes, it would be helpful to have some actual statistics to juggle....but I'm a numbers man...you'll have to excuse me....

PA I have been up and down the eastern seaboard workng, riding,training horses,I could go on a on what happens to these babies,BUT I wontI dont base CALDER as why I say what I do..

[tholl]

I too have worked around horses all my life and I agree that "lots" of two year olds get hurt and never make it to the races. However, some places, situations are worse than others.
In England about 10% of two year olds that make it to training do not make it to the races for whatever reason.
In America that figure is roughly 17%, higher because of 1) the rush to get them to the races, 2) the emphasis on breeding for speed, with which comes unsoundness, 3) training on hard dirt surfaces.

Some stallions are much worse than others in this regard**: Seattle Slew, not known for passing along soundness may be one of the worst: Of his 769 first named foals 25% never made it to the races.
Others are Storm Cat, AP Indy, Danzig and Red Ransiom all at 21%. Deputy Minister 23%, Dixieland Band 18%, Miswaki 17% and El Prado 15%.
Dynaformer is well above average at 10%, presumably since his produce are late developers and not pushed early. One of the most suprising is Fortunate Prospect also at 10%. He stands in Florida and most of his produce end up at Calder.

** these figures will be a little high (2-3%) since they do not reflect horses that never went in training.

[tholl]

Hmm! Lively discussion, 115 replies, and I post with some figures and the thread died. Whats up with that?

[JustRalph]

I too have worked around horses all my life and I agree that "lots" of two year olds get hurt and never make it to the races. However, some places, situations are worse than others.
In England about 10% of two year olds that make it to training do not make it to the races for whatever reason.
In America that figure is roughly 17%, higher because of 1) the rush to get them to the races, 2) the emphasis on breeding for speed, with which comes unsoundness, 3) training on hard dirt surfaces.

Some stallions are much worse than others in this regard**: Seattle Slew, not known for passing along soundness may be one of the worst: Of his 769 first named foals 25% never made it to the races.
Others are Storm Cat, AP Indy, Danzig and Red Ransiom all at 21%. Deputy Minister 23%, Dixieland Band 18%, Miswaki 17% and El Prado 15%.
Dynaformer is well above average at 10%, presumably since his produce are late developers and not pushed early. One of the most suprising is Fortunate Prospect also at 10%. He stands in Florida and most of his produce end up at Calder.

** these figures will be a little high (2-3%) since they do not reflect horses that never went in training.

don't take it personal. It appears the thread was on life support prior to your post

[tholl]

don't take it personal. It appears the thread was on life support prior to your post

Did'nt take it personally; you're right that the thread was near death, just thought that the person(s) crying out for "figures" may have shown interest.

[Suff]

He's calling you out. What say you PA?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Do horses in England generally race to a later age? How about elsewhere?

[tholl]

Do horses in England generally race to a later age? How about elsewhere?

Generally, I'd say yes they do race to a later age. However I don't think one could attribute that totally to soundness. In England and elsewhere there are so many other opportunities for horses that are just plain slow. Long distance turf races or even over hurdles are a great alternative that US horses may not have.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did'nt take it personally; you're right that the thread was near death, just thought that the person(s) crying out for "figures" may have shown interest.

Don't take offense, but your figures really don't answer my question, plus I don't know the source of your figures, so I didn't feel it was right for me to comment.

Are you implying that the 25% of Slew babies that went unraced all broke down?

[kenwoodallpromos]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/media/resources/averagesforthebreed.pdf

This says 68% of foals run at least 1 race.

[tholl]

Don't take offense, but your figures really don't answer my question, plus I don't know the source of your figures, so I didn't feel it was right for me to comment.

Are you implying that the 25% of Slew babies that went unraced all broke down?

The figures came from the Blood Horse stallion directory. But like I posted with the "**" the figures are a little high since they reflect ALL named foals whether they went in training or not. Plus the figure is not broken down as to why they did not race, but one would have to think that at the very least 15% were too unsound to race and the rest did not make it for other reasons. "Broke down" is a little severe; one would also have to think that many of Slew's foals, being high priced, were treated carefully and retired lest a catastropic injury should occur.

[PaceAdvantage]

While I appreciate you giving us some numbers (numbers that do indicate fragility), I believe I was looking for numbers that might shed some more light on 2yo's that break down after a couple of races...I believe that was what McSchell said....

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that even a single 2yo breaking down after a couple of races is one too many, and efforts should concentrae on breeding a sounder racehorse, even if that comes at the expense of some speed.

[kenwoodallpromos]

If the speed you are speaking of is the 1f workouts for sales, or 1 and 2f races I won't miss them.
If you are talking about 2 or 3 year olds lke spanish Chestnut trained as a rabbit instead of a horse, I do not mind losing that either.
I like a combination of early speed and stamina, or at least horses that can run well even if the track is not sealed.