Private lessons -- follow up question

[andicap]

OK, thanks for the responses. Very very interesting discussion which raised another question in my mind. Again just curiousity, nothing more. I'm always trying to think of ways to introduce new people to the game and more importantly, keep them involved by improving their skills.

-- Would you ever pay for handicapping lessons if he could prove to you through records or IRS reports or giving you a series of picks, etc., that he was a winning player? So assume he is a winning player.

-- How much per hour would you be willing to pay? Or even a flat fee on retainer?

Private lessons of course would be more expensive than ones in small groups of no more than five (enough to insure individual attention.)

I'm thinking $500-$1,000 per hour mentioned in the main thread is patently ridiculous considering top lawyers bill at only $300/hour. As a free-lance journalist I'm happy if I make at least $45/hour (I think in terms of hourly rates not words when I get work) and ecstatic if it reaches $60/hour.

I would think a winning player would be happy to get the extra income with a very minimal risk of having his prices jeopardized since he is not writing a book for the masses, but teaching a select few. And unlike handicapping there is no risk in giving lessons. (except for dissatisfied customers demanding their money back.)

Besides if you teach to bet by finding the best value it almost doesn't matter because if the 6-1 "overlays" all of sudden start getting bet that would inflate the odds on the solid 3-1 horses and make THEM the overlays.

[BillW]

Andi,

I would think it would be a more important issue of whether this mythical person had the ability to teach (as mentioned before in previous thread). Proof of being a winner would be a first step, but still no reassurance of any substantial investment being worthwhile.
Assuming the above is positive, I would think a price in the neighborhood of what one would pay for golf lessons would be a good target.

Bill

[so.cal.fan]

I agree with Bill.
You would also want someone on YOUR circuit. There is a huge difference in betting races in different parts of the country, even different tracks in the same area.
Some sort of a psychological test to determine if the person striving to become a professional player or at least a winning player would also be helpful.
Some people are just not good gamblers....regardless of their knowledge.

[andicap]

Andi,

I would think it would be a more important issue of whether this mythical person had the ability to teach (as mentioned before in previous thread). Proof of being a winner would be a first step, but still no reassurance of any substantial investment being worthwhile.
Assuming the above is positive, I would think a price in the neighborhood of what one would pay for golf lessons would be a good target.

Bill

I don't play golf -- what do people pay for lessons?
:D

[BillW]

I assume that would vary by market, but $50-$75/Hr is my gut feel. I'm thinking more in terms of what type of demographic would be interested in this type of approach to the game and the person seeking to become good at golf, with a similar methodical approach comes to mind (as opposed to someone looking for another excuse to drink beer on the weekend)

[kenwoodallpromos]

I can buy a fish but it will cost me a lot more to take fishing lessons.
Obviously someone who can make money capping will not teach lessons to be used a lifetime for cheap! All this prove this and prove that and give free picks and teach capping on the cheap is BS because it is just theoretical like the last round of "teach me to handicap" thread. PM me or Tom if anyone is ready to put up real money and is not ego-driven and negative.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I never heard of any golfer, lawyer, doctor, or hardly any other professionals who have to "prove" anytrhing; it is all by reputation. So go get Andy Beyer or a big name capper to teach you and good luck getting free picks or their win %! LOL! :D

[so.cal.fan]

Does anyone think it's important to be a creative thinker, have an opinion of your own and the courage to follow your own intuition?
To think EVERYTHING about handicapping and betting has already been "discovered" is just not true, in my opinion.
Maybe if handicappers would try to think for themselves rather than follow the methods of others, they would do better? Or at least enjoy the process more?
What if all the scientists and engineers just decided: "oh well, everything that's out there has already been discovered" ????
Now, I know handicapping is more of an art than a science, so....what if all the creative artists just decided: "oh well, everthing that's ever been painted, written, etc has already been done"???
There is always something new and exciting to discover.....why can't it be you that discovers it?

[Dave Schwartz]

Andy,

Just for the record, you don't get a million dollar attorney for $300 per hour. (Just think of Michael Jackson's lawyer . <G>)

But really you have made my point.

Consider the "personal coaching" profession... (Maybe I put the quotes around the wrong word.)

... If you were to higher a personal coach, you would likely want someone with a great deal of success behind them. Let's assume that [i]you measure success at some significantly higher income than you are currently making - for arguments sake, let's say $250k per year. Let's translate that into $125 per hour.

It stands to reason that a person who makes $10 per hour in their job cannot easily afford to pay $125 per hour say three times per week.

So, my point is this - Those that most need a personal coaching session with Anthony Robbins cannot likely afford it. Conversely, those who can afford it, don't need it.

I would say that the same holds true in this arena. (Although one can certainly argue that the old "Them that can't do, teach..." adage is all wet, the bottom line is that you typically have to pay more for a doer than a teacher.)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[fishorsechess]

-- Would you ever pay for handicapping lessons if he could prove to you through records or IRS reports or giving you a series of picks, etc., that he was a winning player? So assume he is a winning player


Yes, if he can show me how he ARRIVED AT THOSE WINNERS.
In math class in school, the teacher wanted you to show your
work and not just the answer. First this is proof you didnt
cheat by looking at a fellow students answer. Just picking winners
and showing IRS forms is not enough to convince people. By
the way. When Mark Cramer and Andy Beyer(on TV years ago)
were shown picking winners they picked no winners while interviewed
or in class(Cramer).

[joeyspicks]

I would think the only way it would be valuable is as an "appretice" type teaching. Hands on going through the process of 1. choosing the races to play (and why) 2. handicapping 3. decision process of what types of bets to make and why 4. money management.

To actually "see" and feel a true "pro" ( ie someone who makes a net profit handicapping races.....not selling stuff.......and has done so for a reasonable period of time.....ie not just last week:D ).....would be invaluable to a serious person interested in leaning how to make a profit ( not pick winners).

To see the process, how disappointment is handled, how emotions etc are handled when things dont go as planned (yeah really) would be worth its weight in gold. Then to learn how money is managed correctly would set the person on the right path. I would think all this would be worth whatever fees are involved.

[BillW]

I would think the only way it would be valuable is as an "appretice" type teaching. Hands on going through the process of 1. choosing the races to play (and why) 2. handicapping 3. decision process of what types of bets to make and why 4. money management.


Good post! - simply learning how to pick winning horses would not get one much farther than the literature now available in the bookstores.

[Tee]

I don't play golf -- what do people pay for lessons?
:D

At the club level u might be able to get a lesson for $30 an hour.

Now if u want a private lesson at a top level golf school/academy u would be looking at $125-$250 an hour depending on the instructor.

A lesson from one of the top teachers in the country will be in the neighborhood of $400 an hour.

[cj]

I used to charge Tee $100 an hour when I lived in Cheyenne. :lol: (For golf, not handicapping)

[Bobby]

To me golf lessons are the biggest waste. I spent about a $1000 doing it and didn't improve THAT much. I practiced a lot too. the "pro" spent the first 2 lessons trying to get me to swith to right handed. I said no. Screw off. I just quit playing. Too expensive and too hot.

anyway, you can teach handicapping just like you can read about it in a book. But almost every race is different. You apply different concepts at different times. You can teach a black box or quasi one but when do you apply what?

[BillW]

I used to charge Tee $100 an hour when I lived in Cheyenne. :lol: (For golf, not handicapping)

That would be what? about $50/hole. :lol::D

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I'm thinking $500-$1,000 per hour mentioned in the main thread is patently ridiculous considering top lawyers bill at only $300/hour.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DrugSalvastore]

I would compare handicapping to body building. The person who works the hardest will always get the best results.

People want to classify everything---it's a great myth that certain handicappers are vastly superior to other cappers---the thing that seperates them is the amount of time they put into it. If you are pouring hours and hours a day into watching films of old races, making competent trip notes, going over endless statistics, and spending enough time handicapping each race and formulating a good betting strategy for the race--than you are going to do a hell of a lot better than anyone who is putting in a lot less work than you.

I've looked for easy ways---I haven't found any. A lot of the people writing books, and selling software, and selling those lame ass systems, and selling stats, and selling sheets..., some of them are producing some useful stuff...but it takes a lot more than a gimmick. In my opinion, you aren't going to get anywhere without putting in the work.

I hate to spoil it for some of you---but that's kind of how it is.

Think of big rebates and betting exchanges to a handicapper as steriods to the body builder. I guess having an account with Ehorse or Pinnacle won't cause your sack to shrink though.

[freeneasy]

that day the feature race was their best bet. they disected and translated the race from top to bottom and came up with the favorite. i completely disagreed and expounded on why this horse should lose and why the 5-1 shot that i liked should be the favorite. they lost and i won. i knew more then they did. i saw more into the race then they did. how come they didnt see what i saw and know what i knew. both sides made perfact sense.
handicapping can be taught but only up to a certain point because in handicapping there are veriables that must be seen over and over in order to understand their qualities. and in handicapping you can only teach the basic veriables that apply to handicapping and to some extent the deeper more complex qualities of those variables. other then that handicapping has to be taught or learned as one's understanding of the countless different levels of variables come into play. one can play on one level and get their winners while another can play on a different level and get their winners. some will get the same winner both using different styles of handicapping. it dosent end in the classroom, it begins. all aboard. just remember the little train that could and you will.

[Tom]

Andy, I would pay Purple Power for private lessons on reading horse body language. Or anyone who really understood it.

[freeneasy]

classes for body launguage

[DrugSalvastore]

classes for body launguage

I have a few videos on the subject---I would recommend them if that's something you want to get into. One was by a guy named Joe Tackuk (sp?) and the other one is called the Body Language of the Racehorse (I think!) It's been so long since I've watched them.

I'm not big into body launguage---but I do make notes of it--and it is something worth knowing. The main reason I'm replying to this though---is because I actually cancelled a series of tickets on a race on the Belmont Stakes undercard because I was real unhappy with how a horse looked on the track. I often bet with rebate places that don't allow cancelled tickets--so I'll typically wait until I see the field before I place my bets when I'm dealing with a rebate shop that doesn't embrace cancelling.

If anyone is wondering--the horse I'm referring to is Artie Schiller--I know it was a hot day on Belmont Stakes day, but he got really worked up and was pouring sweat from the kidney and from under his front legs--though it isn't a good sign, that wouldn't bother me a lot if the horse in question wasn't stretching out in a turf race as a favorite in the betting. I thought Artie was a super bet in there at 9-to-5 beforehand--but you just CAN NOT play a turf horse, on the stretch out, who is getting that hot and edgy before a race, at that kind of price. If the race was at 8.5 instead of 10 furlongs I wouldn't have minded nearly as much.

I think the body launguague angle is useful--but it can be very overrated if you are trying to base all your handicapping around that angle. Just like I think speed figures are very useful--but they are very overrated if you trying to base everything around them and you aren't paying enough attention to the circumstances surronding the figures (like pace and trip) and you also need to be cynical of certain figures that came on day's when being a figuremaker was a difficult job.

But I'm the son of two old racehorse trainers--I've hotwalked horses and worked around them before--one of the trainers I lived with and worked for was on the cover of the Simulcast Weekly last week...so I have a decent idea of this subject..and while it's useful stuff..I really doubt that mastering the body language of a race horse is going to lead to great success at the windows.

[traynor]

fishorsechess wrote <Yes, if he can show me how he ARRIVED AT THOSE WINNERS.>

I am amazed at all the comments, and not one on the topic of the motivation of the "expert" giving the lessons. Why would someone capable of winning the amounts of money available to an expert handicapper be willing to dispense that information to others in exchange for trivial amounts of money? Or, for that matter, for substantial amounts that would still be less than the return on a relatively small exacta ticket? It just doesn't make sense. Money is not a motivation to those capable of making it as easily as a competent professional handicapper.

The willingness to give instruction--for whatever fee--indicates a LACK of expertise, and a reliance on instruction as an income source, rather than wagering. The "experts" all seem to have their hands out, and most for amounts that would seem too trivial to be worth pursuing. Consider; unless I need the money, why would I prefer "teaching" a group of people who expect the keys to the kingdom in exchange for a couple of hundred bucks, when I could be sipping Campari and soda on a nice veranda overlooking the Costa del Sol?

Thanks

[JustMissed]

IN AN EARLIER POST YOU WROTE THIS:

"Share your insights?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,
We are putting together a website and online content for novice to intermediate handicappers and we need expert opinion, advice, and insights. If anyone would be interested in publishing anything from short tips to 5-10 page articles on handicapping topics, please let me know, or submit the material.

This will not be a commercial site! It is intended to provide handicappers the tools they need to win, free of charge. We believe the best sources of information are those handicappers who are already successful, and are willing to share their insights and strategies with those less successful.

Project is in planning stage, should be launched in about six weeks. We are compiling and editing content now. If you have never considered authoring before, please consider it now--we will be happy to help with editing and formatting if needed.
Thanks
Traynor

NOW, TODAY, YOU WRITE THIS, QUESTIONING WHY ANYONE WOULD GIVE EXPERT INFORMATION.

fishorsechess wrote <Yes, if he can show me how he ARRIVED AT THOSE WINNERS.>

I am amazed at all the comments, and not one on the topic of the motivation of the "expert" giving the lessons. Why would someone capable of winning the amounts of money available to an expert handicapper be willing to dispense that information to others in exchange for trivial amounts of money? Or, for that matter, for substantial amounts that would still be less than the return on a relatively small exacta ticket? It just doesn't make sense. Money is not a motivation to those capable of making it as easily as a competent professional handicapper.

The willingness to give instruction--for whatever fee--indicates a LACK of expertise, and a reliance on instruction as an income source, rather than wagering. The "experts" all seem to have their hands out, and most for amounts that would seem too trivial to be worth pursuing. Consider; unless I need the money, why would I prefer "teaching" a group of people who expect the keys to the kingdom in exchange for a couple of hundred bucks, when I could be sipping Campari and soda on a nice veranda overlooking the Costa del Sol?

Thanks

WHAT GIVES? MAYBE PA SHOULD PUNCH YOUR TICKET.
JM

[Steve 'StatMan']

:eek: :lol:

[NoDayJob]

-- Would you ever pay for handicapping lessons if he could prove to you through records or IRS reports or giving you a series of picks, etc., that he was a winning player? So assume he is a winning player.

-- How much per hour would you be willing to pay? Or even a flat fee on retainer?


:lol: If a crippled crab couldn't raise a pair of match sticks for crutches around here, then it's a sure bet that "free" will be the operative word. :lol:

NDJ

[Tee]

I used to charge Tee $100 an hour when I lived in Cheyenne. :lol: (For golf, not handicapping)

I never paid!!
:D :D :D :D

[superfecta]

Does anyone think it's important to be a creative thinker, have an opinion of your own and the courage to follow your own intuition?
To think EVERYTHING about handicapping and betting has already been "discovered" is just not true, in my opinion.
Maybe if handicappers would try to think for themselves rather than follow the methods of others, they would do better? Or at least enjoy the process more?
What if all the scientists and engineers just decided: "oh well, everything that's out there has already been discovered" ????
Now, I know handicapping is more of an art than a science, so....what if all the creative artists just decided: "oh well, everthing that's ever been painted, written, etc has already been done"???
There is always something new and exciting to discover.....why can't it be you that discovers it?thats what makes this game so great. you can make your own path and become successful at it.But that also what holds alot of people back as successful handicappers.The rigid thinking that there is only one way to turn a profit.

[superfecta]

I think if someone would have a small class,they would have to figure the overhead and how much time it would take to prepare for the class and then they could come up with a fig for their time,which differers from person to person.And what the demand was.I would think one day a week at the track with say ten students kicking in 50 bucks would be a nice start,with extra time for individual 'tutoring"at 10 bucks an hour.So for four hours you get 500 bucks and if you come up with some plays the class could pool extra money into,you could take a percentage of winning tickets and the students could get some if not all their money back.but thats just a guess off the top of my head,the overhead could be much higher in different areas of the country.

[freeneasy]

thats what makes this game so great. you can make your own path and become successful at it.But that also what holds alot of people back as successful handicappers.The rigid thinking that there is only one way to turn a profit.

from now on iam calling you sup'de'sup

[traynor]

JustMissed wrote <NOW, TODAY, YOU WRITE THIS, QUESTIONING WHY ANYONE WOULD GIVE EXPERT INFORMATION.>

You are absolutely correct. When I first got on this forum, I asked who would be willing to "donate" some of their expertise to put together tutorials/instruction that would be freely available to beginners (or anyone else who wanted it). That idea was not well received, although one or two did either volunteer or ask for more information. This is a different topic, based on the supposed "million dollar winning year" of some "expert," and the willingness of someone to commit to paying a specific figure for "instruction" from that expert. All purely hypothetical, and in no way related to my prior posting.

My premise is simple; if I have just won a million dollars in the past year handicapping, what earthly motivation would I possibly have to "share" that information with anyone else, for anything less than an equivalent amount--and that only if I thought I could not repeat my own performance. It is a simple premise that any reasonable person would immediately understand, provided they could go beyond the self-defeating, limiting, personal perspective of how much "evidence" they would demand from the hypothetical expert before parting with their pittance, while expecting at least buckets of easy money in return.

The fallacy is one that systems sellers have used to great profit for many years; the fallacy that you can keep doing essentially what you are doing already, with a little "expert advice" mixed in, and suddenly become a consistent winner. Several posters were astute enough to realize that the idea of "instant knowledge" dispensed in an overpriced seminar is silly--it takes a bit longer to learn to win than "rubbing shoulders with winners" for a few hours at a seminar.

If anyone is planning such a seminar format, I suggest you look at some of the information technology "boot camps"--fees of $1000 a day are typical, with a fairly small number of clients, but definitely not personal instruction, with typical "camps" lasting four to seven days. The major difference is that the knowledge imparted can be measured, specified, tested, clearly defined, and periodically reinforced, if necessary. When handicapping reaches that level of conceptual consistency, it might be worth an equivalent amount. At the stage of "insider secrets from a BIG WINNER," I think I would opt for Lao Tze's response to the Chinese emperor's offer of riches and palaces; "I would rather wiggle my toes in the mud." Provided, of course, I can have my Campari and soda while so doing.
Thanks

[The Judge]

This question has been posed many times on this board and elsewhere. This question implies that there is a secret and if it gets out there won't be enough money to go around. There is no secret or if there is I haven't found it nor have I heard of anyone else that has. Why would a person who has a multi- million dollar business publish a book and teach a class at the local college as well as go on speaking tours not to mention television and tell people how they did it. Some people are teachers and they want to spread what they have learned in the school of hard knocks so that the next person especially young people don't have to go thru and make all the errors they did. They know no matter what they say (secrets) people will still not listen, do it their way, take some of what they say and not other parts, re-interpret what they say to fit their life expriences and on and on. They do it anyway? Why is this board here and I can get on "free" and say what I'm saying? Some of the most friendly and giving people I have met have been involved in handicapping. People on this board give out free picks horses they will be betting,some let you use their programs for free, some will run your questions thru their data bank for free and e-mail you the answer. Why?

[traynor]

The Judge wrote <Some people are teachers and they want to spread what they have learned in the school of hard knocks so that the next person especially young people don't have to go thru and make all the errors they did. They know no matter what they say (secrets) people will still not listen, do it their way, take some of what they say and not other parts, re-interpret what they say to fit their life expriences and on and on.>

I agree, with the caveat that the motives are often more complex than they seem on the surface. For example, the motivation of many to teach is self-gratification--to be perceived by others as an expert to inflate their own egos. Once you realize that, it becomes clear why there are so many poor teachers, and why it is so difficult to learn certain topics; it has less to do with the complexity of the topic than with the quality of the instruction.

Second, the issue of "misery loves company" rears its ugly head; teachers are often more interested in validation of their own (erroneous) belief systems than imparting useful knowledge. That is, they are most interested in being perceived as experts possessing worthwhile information, but they are secondarily (and very strongly) motivated by a desire to have other people accept their beliefs as valid, important, and meaningful. Teachers have a vested interest in perpetuating the status quo, supporting what has gone before, and essentially re-hashing old stuff. Not just in handicapping; that tendency is even stronger in colleges and universities, and many of the current crop of college graduates seem to have majored in underwater basket weaving, while firmly convinced that they are "experts" in whatever field because they managed to sit through a few semesters of meaningless, trivial classes taught by marginally competent instructors.

The short version is that I don't buy into the myth that "teachers are driven to teach by a love of teaching and a desire to disseminate knowledge." Take the ego-stroking out of the equation, and most teachers would be doing something else. Teachers teach--first and foremost--to flatter their own egos; the value to the learner is a distant second to satisfying their own needs. Not just my personal opinion. There is an abundant amount of research to back up that opinion.

Thanks

[Tom]

If an expert is sincere about sharing his knowledge, he will undoubtedly offer free coffee and a bearclaw at each session. That is the mark of professionalism.
I attend profesisonal workshops several times a year, and I always look for the bearclaws.

[NoDayJob]

If an expert is sincere about sharing his knowledge, he will undoubtedly offer free coffee and a bearclaw at each session. That is the mark of professionalism.
I attend profesisonal workshops several times a year, and I always look for the bearclaws.

:D Personally, I prefer raisin snails---lots of raisins too. Mebee PA can provide us with hot coffee and bearclaws/raisin snails everytime we log in, huh? A coupon good at the local coffee house, of course. :D

NDJ

[The Judge]

Yeah unfortunately much of what you say is correct there has to be a certain amount of ego if you hold yourself out as an "expert". Again many just want to share and a little recognition for their efforts is probablly a good thing.

[Donnie]

I just spent 1/2 hour on a response to Traynor (Trainer) and after reading it 3 times, decided I don't wish to enter a pissing match. I teach. I disagree with much of what he posted. I think maybe he has not had very good teachers in his life. And that is too bad. But if you find a good teacher, you remember that person your entire life.

I would like to invite everyone who reads this board to come out to Las Vegas for Ken Massa's seminar in July being held at the Gold Coast Casino. The basic info can be found here: http://www.homebased2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4331

We'd love to have you out...and no, no one is getting rich off this seminar. Just genuine horseplayers sharing genuine concepts and thoughts and processes. Well worth the minor fee being charged. And you don't have to be an HTR subscriber to attend and participate!

BOL to all!

[The Judge]

Sounds like one sweet deal I love seminars and hope to attend maybe I'll enter the handicapping contest. Sounds like alot of fun and if any ego's are around they don't seem to be extra large ones just some little baby ego's I can handle that. Sounds like some teachers to me. Hey this Tomcat thats mentioned did he have a book out on trifectas or something?

[Tom]

I will be there....looking forward to July!

Going out Monday, coming home Friday....got to allow some gambling time :jump:
I think a visit to the Gambler's Book Club would be fun,too.

[freeneasy]

i was at the gamblers book store once along time ago and if you've never been then all i can remember to tell you is the next time i looked up at the clock it was like 3 and a half hours later. bring a little hanky cause i think once you walk in and see that its kinda like a small super market of gambling books your might get a little tear in your eye. gonna love it

[Donnie]

Hey Tom...if you want some company, I missed getting down there the last 2 times we went to Vegas. The wife and I fly in on Sunday nite, so I have extra time on my hands before the seminar, if you wanna hook up! Just let me know!

Freeneasy...same thing happened to me...like walking into a time warp. Not just handicapping books...any type of gambling. Fun to just go -n- browse.

BOL.

[Tom]

Donnie....you got it! Never been to Vegas, but I think it will be my kind of town.

[Fastracehorse]

Horses and hobbies.

Do you have a turbo-charged ride lawn-mower?? :)

fffastt

[Suff]

JustMissed wrote <NOW, TODAY, YOU WRITE THIS, QUESTIONING WHY ANYONE WOULD GIVE EXPERT INFORMATION.>

You are absolutely correct. When I first got on this forum, I asked who would be willing to "donate" some of their expertise to put together tutorials/instruction that would be freely available to beginners (or anyone else who wanted it). That idea was not well received, although one or two did either volunteer or ask for more information. This is a different topic, based on the supposed "million dollar winning year" of some "expert," and the willingness of someone to commit to paying a specific figure for "instruction" from that expert. All purely hypothetical, and in no way related to my prior posting.
Thanks


No. Your wrong. It very much does. It is directly related. Because it is just plain odd. Very odd. That you would be soliciting information you intended to give away free, then making the argument here that any information worth having, isn't given away. Aggregating your posts has you coming up suspect in many ways.

Different subject
That HTR vegas thing looks like Fun, and very fair. Tom will give us a full report at Saratoga. Maybe HTR will send along some literature to kick around, when they send Tom home.

[cratman]

I understand that the going rate for top attorneys in New York is now 800-900 dollars an hour.

[Dan Montilion]

I understand that the going rate for top attorneys in New York is now 800-900 dollars an hour.

I think some top hookers get the same rate. Coincidence?

Dan Montilion

[Donnie]

Suff--- Amen to your response to Traynor. As for the HTR seminar, it is a lot of fun. Yes, Tom will be sent home with printed materials as well as a database I am constructing that will be free to all. Obviously, it will be geared towards HTR importing and report structuring. Even people who are not HTR subscribers will receive the db. 4 years ago I gave away the exact same db I still use today. Don't think anyone saved it or used it. Too bad for them! :) It's paid off in spades for me. Ken's presentation is always geared toward research he has done, and how he has incorporated that into HTR, but anybody who does data analysis is welcome to take the concepts home and try them out.