fishorchess and horseplayers

[Steve 'StatMan']

Well fishorchess, I don't know if you will have the chance to read the later posts in the prior thread, I'll politely refer to a 'possible perceptions of horsplayers', and whether that thread will stay or be retitled. If that thread continues and you respond there, then kindly disregard this one.

I guess after all the questions you've been asking in other threads (let alone the responses), and now this one, there is one question that is really begging to be asked and therefore I must ask it:

What are your feelings about handicappers, horse racing, and horseplayers?

[WJ47]

I'm wondering too. It seems like all of his posts seem to have a negative slant towards handicappers. He posts questions and then never really comes back to the thread to discuss it further. Instead, he starts another thread with another question. I don't know if he is honestly curious, but the questions he asks are somewhat strange to me. At first I thought he was a beginning handicapper who was losing alot, as I'm sure most of us had happen in the beginning, but now I'm thinking that he's probably got some sort of issues with handicappers. When I came to the board today and saw the latest post about child molesters, I almost fell off my chair. I've never heard that before, and frankly, it is offensive.

Years ago, my Grandfather gambled alot (apparently unsuccessfully) on horse racing and although he has been dead since 1986, my Grandmother still talks about it! My grandmother goes to the casino and will think nothing of putting $200 in the slots. Not sure why that is any different. I would think that a horseplayer who is basically knowledgeable with handicapping would have a much better advantage than someone popping money in the slots. I've heard people say negative comments regarding horseplayers, but never to compare us to child molesters! :(

[mhrussell]

:bang: I've been reading this guys posts for some time too and have been very confused. Somewhat interesting topics but then they seem to get nowhere and he starts another one. And I have always had a gut feeling that this guy just wants to yank all of our chains and 'hear himself talk'. The "child molester" topic was the final piece of evidence to this.

I for one am just going to ignore his posts from now on. Too bad.
If I am wrong 'fish', my apologies.. but I've had enough.

[Tom]

He can't afford cable or satellite, so he uses us for his entertainment.

[Zman179]

Fish's posts don't disturb me. I've got much thicker skin than that. His "child molester" title might have been inappropriate, but he was also speaking second hand and not directly.

IMO, horseplayers are considered to be on the bottom rung of the gambling ladder. Whenever the subject of racing is brought up to a non-horseplayer, they think of three things:

1) Old men cursing at tv's in cheap suits (comes up a lot)
2) Cigar smoke
3) Fixed races

Not images that one prefers to associate with. Whenever someone brings up racing, I prefer to change the subject.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Frankly, I'm wondering similar things, or if fishorsechess is doing research (scientific, paper, or book) and this is his way of interviewing people. I don't know that would be pro, neutral, or anti-racing at this point, as well as gambling in general.

I think some explainations are in order, so here's a bit of a bump.

By the way, I pulled out my copy of Anderw Beyer's "Picking Winners" and reviewed it for the commentary about this topic.

The thing many of us regulars know, but maybe outsiders or people without senses of humor may not know or realize, is that one thing that makes Andy Beyers such a facinating, entertaining and often funny read is his way of expressing his humor in a almost-over-to-the-top fashion, a way of overemphasising something so that it's mere outrageousness in the statement makes it funny, while underscoring a point he's making that isn't necessarily as bold as the exageration. The word for this type of exagerated humor is 'hyperbole' which Webster's Dictionary defines as "extravagant expression used as a figure of speech."

As I'd pointed out in the other thread, this writing in 1975 came well before the explosion of casino gambling in most states, indian tribal gaming, even state loteries. While people might only have been able to legally gamble in Las Vegas, Atlantic City, or racetracks around the country when this was written, nearly all states have some form of legalized gaming now, the only two I believe do not are Utah and Hawaii. So I believe that much has changed in society's thinking in the last 30 years regarding gambling in all of it's shapes and forms.

Here's the paragraph I found in Andres Beyer's "Picking Winners". My paperback copy from the 1985 re-release has it on page 7 in the chapter entitled "The Joy Of Handicappping":

"The cerebral stimulation of handicapping, and the ego gratification that comes from doing it well, are only a part of the attraction of playing horses. The act of betting itself, as the legendary plunger Nick the Greek once said, "improves the flavor of living." Most solid citizens think gamblers are in the same psychological league as dope fields and child molesters, but they don't understand and they don't know what they're missing."

Nothing really heinous or horrendous when you see the point he's trying to make, a bit humorously, in the quote. Since I think it would be enlightening and healing for us, I'll continue with the next two paragraphs from the book:

"A friend of mine from Boston was obsessed with playing the horses. He would awaken at dawn so he could study the races all morning, spend the afternoon at the track, and devote his entire evening to a stack of yellowing Racing Forms, searching for new techniques. He didn't have much money, but his life was a joy. Every day was a new challenge, a new adventure. My friend didn't think there was anything abnormal about his passion. "I am thankful," he said once, "that God gave me the capacity to enjoy. And let's face it: there's nothing more enjoyable than gambling."

"The capacity to enjoy: so few people have it. Most citizens live lives of such routine and drudgery and are so concerned about security that they cannon imagine how delicious uncertainty is. A gambler may have many periods of pain and frustration as he does of exhilaration, but at least he knows he's alive."

[WJ47]

Steve, that is one of my favorite parts of Andy Beyer's book. It really sums it up. There really can't be too much in life more in enjoyable than a day at the races! I also remember him writing that when you get the new form everyday, you never know if that is going to be the one that changes your life.

[hurrikane]

Honestly,

This guy has not added one thing of value to this board. Search his posts.
He has never offered an opinion, stat, idea, thought, or even a statment that belongs to himself.

It's always someone else said this or that. Who gives a f-!

They guy is a fisherman.

I don't always offer value but I'll give you my opinion...too bad eh! :D

[kingfin66]

That's the easiest thing to do. Give him the silent treatment. SHUN HIM/HER.

[KingChas]

"The cerebral stimulation of handicapping, and the ego gratification that comes from doing it well, are only a part of the attraction of playing horses. The act of betting itself, as the legendary plunger Nick the Greek once said, "improves the flavor of living." Most solid citizens think gamblers are in the same psychological league as dope fields and child molesters, but they don't understand and they don't know what they're missing."

Nothing really heinous or horrendous when you see the point he's trying to make, a bit humorously, in the quote. Since I think it would be enlightening and healing for us, I'll continue with the next two paragraphs from the book:



Fisherman lost the big one with the title of his/her thread for sure.
The funny thing about this is Fisherhorsechess said it was written "tongue in cheek".
I don't see the humor in AB's original quote- as PA members don't see the humor in Fishers quote.So since your busting on Fish I guess we should have a "Picking Winners" book burning ritual also,-or does one person have to be politically correct and not the other because of Status-Quo?Fisher no apology due to me but you write the threads and let the editors do the titles.lol ;)

[Steve 'StatMan']

Humor is of course, in the eye of the beholder, and at different levels. There is, of course, absolutely nothing humorous about people who would do anything harmful to childern. My take on the attempt at 'humor' was AB was being intentionally over-the-top in his discription of prim-proper society's alleged views of horseplayers, "Stay fay away from them people, they play the horses!" :eek: ;)

Like another quote from Andy Beyer's 1982 "The Winning Horseplayer" (pg 154, chapter "Modern Betting Strategies":

"I was watching a $1000 bet go down the drain while standing next to a youthful bettor who was exhorting his horse in a tone one would normally employ when pleading with the Mau-Mau to spare one's children. It turned out he had bet $2 on an exacta paying $27."

Now of course there were no people or children in any danger. Not sure what a Mau-Mau is - I'm guessing a grand tribal leader of some kind that would sacrifice children and/or virgins to a volcano, for all I know.

Maybe there should be a disclaimer on both of these books "No children were harmed in the writing of this book". Admittedly, some might feel some were harmed by the reading of this book, but I and surely many of use horseplayers can laughing agree otherwise! ;)

[fishorsechess]

Steve,
Thanks for digging up that quote from Andy Beyer's Picking Winners.
I guess I am not the first person who quoted horseplayers being
one level above child molesters. It was written in a best selling
handicapping book!

"The cerebral stimulation of handicapping, and the ego gratification that comes from doing it well, are only a part of the attraction of playing horses. The act of betting itself, as the legendary plunger Nick the Greek once said, "improves the flavor of living." Most solid citizens think gamblers are in the same psychological league as dope fields and CHILD MOLESTERS, but they don't understand and they don't know what they're missing."-Beyer

The topic of child molesters is an extremely sensitive one at this
point in our society. Look at what you hear every other month
in the media: Children being kidnapped, molested,murdered.
If I posted what I did 30 years ago horseplayers might have just
shrugged it off. Look what happened to LAPD's Chielf Gates when
he opened his mouth regarding minorities. He got into alot of hot
water and ultimately had to resign his post. He might have gotten
away with that 40 years ago when things where differenet but not
nowadays.

Again, thank you to those who forgave me for what I posted regarding
this subject.

[skate]

ive not read the fishers postings (not enough time) but...

could be anything, the answer to "why" he post whatever he post, that is.

i know that when i post, im clear to myself but not to others (sometimes i e).
and vesa versa, da. oh i hate that.

but anyhow, ill tell my vegas story.

im standing next to this lady with husband (?) in the "Dust", she comments about all the men in the sportsbook (christmas day) and says to hubby "just look at all these men (discust) they should be home with their family".

its not me thats going to ask "why are you here, lady"?
or, maybe these guys dont have a family (big deal).

anyhow, maybe you get my gist, maybe not.
ive been around sports and then some.
thoroughbred horse racing is the best way to go if you want to ADD something to your life, my opinion.
hey, like anything else, it can kill. stay in control, baby.

[Dan Montilion]

I never associate with horseplayers.

Jacko

[fishorsechess]

I think the thing people don't realize about me in this forum
that sometimes I say things that are "over the top" but don't
intend to hurt anyone's feelings. Think about just what
you wrote. If that woman went up to those horseplayers in
that sportsbook on Christmas Day and asked each one of them
"Why aren't you at home with your family?" Dont you feel they
would be offended? Believe me they would be.

[KingChas]

Humor is of course, in the eye of the beholder, and at different levels.

"I was watching a $1000 bet go down the drain while standing next to a youthful bettor who was exhorting his horse in a tone one would normally employ when pleading with the Mau-Mau to spare one's children. It turned out he had bet $2 on an exacta paying $27."

Now of course there were no people or children in any danger. Not sure what a Mau-Mau is - I'm guessing a grand tribal leader of some kind that would sacrifice children and/or virgins to a volcano, for all I know.

Maybe there should be a disclaimer on both of these books "No children were harmed in the writing of this book". Admittedly, some might feel some were harmed by the reading of this book, but I and surely many of use horseplayers can laughing agree otherwise! ;)

Steve I have not reread this book in ages.More interested in the tech part of it when 1st read it.Never paid any mind to these quotes like you said.But the more quotes I'm reading the more I see AB does have one very strange sense of humor :confused: ;)

[skate]

fishors...;


hey , that was a good post, the one where you sent an apology and expressed regret. that is not easy, most will not.
in case, not everyone saw the post.

regarding the "dusty-lady", i was wondering about her expression, more than the feelings to whom she referenced.

her remarks were stupity at its uttermost.

at times we all do such things, not good, but human.

the "dusty-lady" gave feelings that are elaborated throughout our society, by media.
even those in this industry who lose control, express sour feelings towards gambling . people fail at thoroughbred horse racing, marriage, business.
most likely do to the individual human and not the industry.