"Diagonal"

[grahors]

I was looking at the "Fast Fred" software and they use and angle called the "Diagonal" or "Double Diagonal" for pedicting improved races.
This term is new to me. Any kind of explanation welcome.
Grahors

[karlskorner]

Some handicappers consider the "double diagonals" as a clue that a horse is rounding into top form. It measures " position " in the field, not the "length" behind.
One diganoal is improvement from 2nd call of 2nd previous race to 3rd call in first previous race to final call in last race.
Two
diagonals is improvement from 1st call of 2nd previous race to 2nd call in 1st previous race to 3rd call in last race. In other words it looks like this
/ /. Double diagonal is an improving pattern in both diagonals.
Goes along with the " Z " pattern where a horse improves from the 3rd call to finish after showing improvemnet between 1st and 2nd call, then falling further off the pace between the 2nd and 3rd call, it looks like a Z.

Both old Ray Taulbot and Les Conklin methods that work when recognized and used properly.

[Tom]

Funny, Karl. I was thumbing through that Les Conklin book just yesterday.

I still look for the spirit of that angle, especially with horses 3-4 off the layoff, and young horses 3-4-5 lifetime starts. I really like it when they have the diagonals and are dropping.

[karlskorner]

The sad part is if we both have that book it shows how LONG we been at this business of handicapping. Although I work with the diagonals, I find the " Z " pattern as a method used by the Trainer to see if his charge is coming to form, not looking to win, but rather that he can go on to win.

Value is a "winning ticket"

[NoDayJob]

Did statistical research on this angle 4 decades ago and reported that, "It failed to show anything useful in using the so-called lines of improvement." I doubt if anything has changed in the ensuing years. Maybe someone here can disprove his claim?

NDJ

[karlskorner]

You and Allen Hickman (never heard of him) are invited to join me in the paddock, maybe I can disprove his "stats".

[NoDayJob]

You and Allen Hickman (never heard of him) are invited to join me in the paddock, maybe I can disprove his "stats".

:lol: Better yet, email me your "stats". I don't want to ruin my new boots. :lol:

NDJ

[grahors]

K,
I think I get the //. (can you give an example. doesn't need to be a real one)
Is the Z the same as Taulbots "for and aft" angle?
ie. next to last race. gain of 3 or more lengths between 1st and 2nd call
last race. must show some gain in position and lengths from stretch to finish.
Grahors

[karlskorner]

The // would look something like this:

last race 6 5 4 3
2nd race 7 6 5 4

the last 2 positions of the last race are better than the 2nd and 3rd position of the 2nd race. The Z would be in the last race, horse is 6th, moves to 4th, drops back to 6th and finishes 3rd, the trainer told the jockey to test him to see if he is in form. Does it work everytime, of course not, neither does my infamous Chinese Double.

[Tom]

Allen Hickman = Hickman's Guide author??


Karl...yes, longtime. I started winning when I bought Ainsle's Complete Guide and Complete Horseplayer book. Had ALL the bold "rules" on index cards, and all the plus factors. I would spend literally an hour on a race, going through every single step, in order. Then he came out with a booklet with 50 MORE plus factors! Sheez! An hour and fifteen minutes a race! LOL

[grahors]

Tom,
I still have those "rules" taped to and taped over (to protect) in my legal pad holder thingy notebook. (portfolio) along with a time chart and distance conversions from Wm Scotts book. They are kinda yellow now but I just can't remove them.
Karlskorner...I am a sucker for angles! I'll bite, would you like to discuss the "Chinese Double"?
Grahors
Have a gracious Memorial Day

[karlskorner]

I'll put in your PM box, causes to much controversy here.