Calif. wagering down BIG TIME

[karlskorner]

Why ?

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=28324

[acorn54]

when gamblers get a 2% take out in 21 and baccarrat they will be attracted to these games of chance more than horseracing
i guarantee you if the horseracing industry made the takeout 3% instead of the present 15-20% they would outdo other gambling venues for money gambled.
acorn

[Dave Schwartz]

"Rebate players" wager millions at off-shore, parimutuel racebooks.

One reason for the decline might be the big boys decision to raise the rates on the simulcast signals to off-shore parimutuel books. This caused a significant reduction in the offered rebates to big players, which, I can only assume, would translate into decreased handle.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Valuist]

Why bet on small fields when there's other options?

[ratpack]

Why bet on small fields when there's other options?

Speaking for myself I would show up at SA at 1030AM for the East Coast Races and usually have very few bets when it came around to just the So Cal tracks. Don't get me wrong I love So Cal but the short fields have made trying to find value a bitch at times.

[karlskorner]

I knew that would be one of the reasons, but again WHY short fields ? The purses are higher than most, the competition is near the best and certainly SA is a premier track.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Does anyone know if the shorter fields are of a particular race condition? Maidens and MC's I think get filled ok. Stakes and allowances up north maybe not.

[BillW]

Does anyone know if the shorter fields are of a particular race condition? Maidens and MC's I think get filled ok. Stakes and allowances up north maybe not.

MDN - 8.34
MCL - 8.59
Avg - 7.69
alw - 7.1

This is over about last 8000 races all CA tracks.

[skate]

a little here and a little there, things add up.

surface is too hard on the horse.

purse money is high, but so is the added expense.

so you get a too too small field and a scratch or two or three and bingo, p oo d

player. it takes time.


other tracks (AP,LAD,FG, etc.) have added races and post positions are full.

[JustRalph]

MDN - 8.34
MCL - 8.59
Avg - 7.69
alw - 7.1

This is over about last 8000 races all CA tracks.

does that include scratches?

[BillW]

Ralph, Yes, those are from the charts - DMR props up the avgs. a bit.

[kenwoodallpromos]

" Nov, 2003-Golden Gate Fields opens with full fields, tons of promise

For Golden Gate Fields, the more the merrier could be the theme of its 109-date meeting that began on Wednesday as the Albany, California, track expects to benefit from the increased horse population in the northern part of the state.
"We had about 1,400 or 1,500 horses when we started Bay Meadows [Race Course] in late August," Tom Doutrich, racing secretary at Golden Gate, told Daily Racing Form. "We now have between 1,800 and 1,900 horses."
__________
After the spring meet 2004 the track super said there were too many small fields due to horses getting hurt- because they "had" too seal the track often because of (phanton) rains.
Before radio and TV the only 2 sports in Ca which drew many were college football and horse racing. Local cardrooms were the only legal gambling.
At Cal Expo, where the 12 days will be cut, there is not easy access from the Ca Statew Fair to the races. At the other fairs racing is very near the entrances.

[kingfin66]

The reason I always here is Workman's Comp. I honestly don't fully understand how this applies to field size. Can anyone explain this further?

[karlskorner]

I keep reading about the high cost of W/C in Calif. which I don't understand, from an Insurance Company's viewpoint I would think the the smaller tracks would be subject to more W/C claims, horses more likely to break down, inexpierenced Jockeys, poor hungry trainers, in my mind all add up to higher W/C premiums, yet Calif. tops the list. If a trainer is going to leave Calif. because of the high W/C premiums and run at a smaller track because the W/C premiums are less he than faces smaller purses, it all comes out even. Something is drastically wrong in Calif. and they don't know how to fix it. The "offshore" rebate millions that Dave speaks of is spread out throughout the country. not only in Calif.

[Dave Schwartz]

Karl,

Good point. Therefore the decline should be across the board.


Dave

[karlskorner]

That's the problem, the decline is not across the board, most well run tracks showed a profit, but to loose 39 Million in 5 months is unheard of, hell, thats considerable more than you and I combined, made last year, not withstanding evasive tax loopholes.

[JustRalph]

check out some info on Ca workers comp.... I haven't read all of this.......but I seem to remember a figure of 17 bucks per $100 in payroll went to workers comp in California...........just off the top of my head I believe that included a fee assessed on trainers of 90 bucks per race (as a single event on top of workouts etc)

http://www.fixworkerscompnow.org/wrong_failing.html

[DJofSD]

Workman's Comp, while a legitimate problem in CA racing, doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned.

As a bettor, I'm interested in one thing: large fields. I don't bet maiden races, so forget about those fields. Anything less than 8 entries, I don't even look at it. If a race scratches to less than 8 runners, I still might bet into the race if I feel there's a good price to be had.

Beyond the field size issue, I would like to see the 24 hour in advance detention barn policy made manditory. That'll slightly raise my hopes that CA racing is not going to die before I do (tongue only slightly in cheek).

At one time years back, CA racing was among the best any where. Now it's doing a swirly. How many more times around the bowl before it's gone?

DJofSD

[ratpack]

I heard that another problem was that some tax breaks for the Cal Breds Breeders program have been eliminated.

I know that Ken Maddy a State Senator in Cal was always looking out for the Horse Racing Industry in California but not sure who is now since he died in 2000, I know it is not Arrrrronld.

[rrbauer]

I keep reading about the high cost of W/C in Calif. which I don't understand, from an Insurance Company's viewpoint I would think the the smaller tracks would be subject to more W/C claims, horses more likely to break down, inexpierenced Jockeys, poor hungry trainers, in my mind all add up to higher W/C premiums, yet Calif. tops the list. If a trainer is going to leave Calif. because of the high W/C premiums and run at a smaller track because the W/C premiums are less he than faces smaller purses, it all comes out even. Something is drastically wrong in Calif. and they don't know how to fix it. The "offshore" rebate millions that Dave speaks of is spread out throughout the country. not only in Calif.

They (Calif) have worked through the WC issue by reducing premiums with relief from the state and by subsidizing the trainers WC costs from a money-pool funded by a 1/2 point increase in the exotic takeout a year ago. They now pay "appearance" money of about $400 per starter to horses that finish out of the purse-payout finish window. There are many other cost-related issues associated with living/doing business in California that inhibit new barns from shipping into the state. I haven't looked at purse structures across the board recently, but those venues that have their purses subsidized by slot money are attracting some of the Calif outfits to ship horses to them.

I have been harping for "years" at this board and others about horse-racing's product problem and it's not just in California.....see the results from Aqueduct's spring meet? Racing simply is not competitive with the other gambling venues in terms of payback to players (as has been pointed out here by others) and there has been zero effort on the part of most of the major racing associations to bring the number of racing dates into alignment with the horse population available to them. This has resulted in the short-fields which in turn results in less interest in those venues. Once players turn away from a circuit and start playing elsewhere (or doing something else with their time/money) getting them back is very difficult.

Karl is correct in suggesting that there are major problems in California and from my perspective the "leadership" there is more interested in preserving the status quo and maintaining their power heirarchy than it is in overhauling their product. One of these days they will figure out that it takes customers to sustain a business, but I'm not hopeful that will be anytime soon.

[rrbauer]

One other thought....
California has added to its woes by the manner in which it mishandled the account-wagering issue. Instead of developing a licensing system that encouraged competition among account-wagering firms they did just the opposite: They did a system that discouraged firms from wanting to do business in California and one that created chaos and confusion for customers and required a customer to have multiple accounts to play different tracks.

[Hosshead]

I wonder if the stated decline is an understatement.
Wasn't 2004 when Magna plugged the plug on many betting outlets?
What would the difference be had they NOT done that ?

[rrbauer]

I wonder if the stated decline is an understatement.
Wasn't 2004 when Magna plugged the plug on many betting outlets?
What would the difference be had they NOT done that ?

Magna started the '03-'04 meet by shutting down the rebate shops from their pools, but after complaints from the TOC, and pressure from the CHRB, they allowed them back in, after a few weeks. Nonetheless, the SA handle decline from the previous year was around $50 million when the meet ended. The decline in part was due to a boycott of Magna tracks and XpressBet by players such as myself; and, due in part to many players not wanting to bet via XpressBet.

Magna rescinded their stupidity at the beginning of 2005 and began a "new era of cooperation" that allowed other account-wagering outfits to take bets on their tracks. By then many players had gone on to other venues and had little reason to go back. The lousy weather did contribute to the weak performance as the press release stated.

The current Hollywood meet is a bellweather meet IMO. They will have had the benefit of the WC relief for their entire meet. However, the uncertainty that surrounds the future of HOL has to have a negative impact on their operations both now and going forward.

[DJofSD]

One other thought....
California has added to its woes by the manner in which it mishandled the account-wagering issue. Instead of developing a licensing system that encouraged competition among account-wagering firms they did just the opposite: They did a system that discouraged firms from wanting to do business in California and one that created chaos and confusion for customers and required a customer to have multiple accounts to play different tracks.

Yes, brought to us by the same group of people that created the energy deregulation fiasco. The state is owned by the politicians and the lobbiest. It's maintain the status quo and damn any one else.

DJofSD

[rrbauer]

DJ
"Yes, brought to us by the same group of people that created the energy deregulation fiasco. The state is owned by the politicians and the lobbiest. It's maintain the status quo and damn any one else. "

Yes, but they're protecting you from the evil empires of BRISbet and PhoneBet by threatening to sue those firms if they allow you (Calif resident) to open an account with them. All of which amounts to the same level of protection that you're getting these days when you go on a plane trip.

Don't you feel so much more secure with all this government-imposed protection?

Oops....getting a little off topic here!

[sniezer]

Just a thought.


I was a dealer at Foxwoods a couple years ago. We had a few dealers come in from CA to CT for better pay and cheaper living.

I don't remember when casinos started in CA, but maybe that had an affect on handle, attendance? Did the decline coincide with their opening?
The trainers I know from there complained about workcomp, cost of living and hard, speed favoring surfaces.

[Misteranthropic]

Thank God for government regulations and security. I'd be frightened to the point of chewing my fingernails and having to wear adult diapers if I were left free to decide where I should wager.

I'm also happy that my daddies and mommies in Sacramento forbid me to ride a bicycle without a helmut and have many rules for me so as I don't hurt myself, but if I do find myself injured because of something I may have done, it's not my fault, and I can sue someone with lots of money because, well, it must be THEIR fault and I'm just a powerless victim.

I'm glad that I live in such a free country, one that so closely resembles the ideas that the founding fathers had for our Republic!

DJ
"Yes, brought to us by the same group of people that created the energy deregulation fiasco. The state is owned by the politicians and the lobbiest. It's maintain the status quo and damn any one else. "

Yes, but they're protecting you from the evil empires of BRISbet and PhoneBet by threatening to sue those firms if they allow you (Calif resident) to open an account with them. All of which amounts to the same level of protection that you're getting these days when you go on a plane trip.

Don't you feel so much more secure with all this government-imposed protection?

Oops....getting a little off topic here!

[kenwoodallpromos]

What were the nature of the trainers' compaints as to hard surfaces?
BTW- I just saw NorthernCa-based Hollendorfer is running at Mtnr in addition to Ohio. I think his owners wanted more purse money.

[sniezer]

What were the nature of the trainers' compaints as to hard surfaces?


They said it was hard to keep the horses sound. That, combined with speed carrying, it made it difficult to make money unless your horse was very rapid. They don't have the owner resources to keep replacing horses every few starts.

[acorn54]

horseracing is in decline EVERYWHERE. people today that gamble see the 14-20 percent take out and get turned off
you would be hard pressed to find any gambling venues that are popular where the take is that large. people know such a large take out puts them at a huge disadvantage
acorn

[JustRalph]

horseracing is in decline EVERYWHERE.

not if you check out the handle the last few years.

[rrbauer]

Good interview with Joe Harper the CEO at Del Mar about the state of racing in the state of La La.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20050529-9999-1s29canepa.html

[rrbauer]

Quick add to Harper's comments. Finally we have a racetrack exec in California admitting that they need to reduce racing days to beef up the race cards that are left. With the clout of the TOC this will never happen. They want their racing days, they want their takeout increases, they want their WC subsidies and they want their "participation" money whether, or not, their horses are competitive. With all of the jostling over the Native American tribes' casinos and slots, etc., the logical thing for the state to do is to just take over racing (like NYRA).

They can call their organization California Race Authority Productions. The resultant acronym is a perfect fit!

[Lefty]

Simulcasting ended CA's reign. Now that simulcasting and slots are a reality most everywhere, the other trks can now pretty much compete with CA in purses. You can train horses cheaper in the midwest, live there cheaper and van your horses to many many trks.
How does CA compete? They don't even allow fullcard simulcasting.
Their Govt, economics and logistics are against CA these days.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From T Times-
"SDS based its figure of 13-million new fans on the survey question, "Are you interested in going to the racetrack?" In 2004, those who answered "yes" represented 48-million people, up from 34.8-million in ‘03. Even brighter times could be ahead, as the poll determined that interest among fans 12 to 24 years old improved 28.2% compared with 2003."
Either none were from CA or they changes their minds!

[kenwoodallpromos]

From Moke Marten of CHRB RE: "Bring Back the Fans" committee-


"When I get back to the office next week, I will send you the minutes from the first few fans meetings. They aren't exactly where you are coming from...more basic in some ways....like I said...one thought is to instruct people how to get to the track, find a seat, and make a wager...not how to handicap but what to say to the clerk to get your wager down...very basic.

We are looking at creating bets that require no thinking whatsoever...odd/even type bets..."
I told him I will take odd #s when there are 7 betting entries and the fav is an odd #.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From Moke Marten of CHRB RE: "Bring Back the Fans" committee-


"When I get back to the office next week, I will send you the minutes from the first few fans meetings. They aren't exactly where you are coming from...more basic in some ways....like I said...one thought is to instruct people how to get to the track, find a seat, and make a wager...not how to handicap but what to say to the clerk to get your wager down...very basic.

We are looking at creating bets that require no thinking whatsoever...odd/even type bets..."
I told him I will take odd #s when there are 7 betting entries and the fav is an odd #.
I said:
You need to put the following on the back of each betting ticket for the next bet::
Track name_____
Race #_________
Bet Amount_____
Bet Type_______
Horse #(#s)____
______________________
He told me it would cost each track millions to print that on the back of each ticket.

[rrbauer]

From T Times-
"SDS based its figure of 13-million new fans on the survey question, "Are you interested in going to the racetrack?" In 2004, those who answered "yes" represented 48-million people, up from 34.8-million in ‘03. Even brighter times could be ahead, as the poll determined that interest among fans 12 to 24 years old improved 28.2% compared with 2003."
Either none were from CA or they changes their minds!

No doubt, there was an unstated condition from those surveyed who stated that they were interested in going.... The condition is something like, "If my boss gives me the afternoon off." Another possibility is that before they got to the track they visited a casino!

[Lefty]

Q should have been are you going to bet a horse?
The simulcast centers and online betting have decimated the attendance but not neccessarily, the handle. Of course, the handle suffers in CA because of reasons i stated in prev. post.