Stealth by Winner's circle and various softwares

[Traderpace]

Hi,

I am back in the racing game after 10 years of Hiatus. Here are the programs I am familiar with and now own.

RaceCom
Entropy (Sartin)
AutoHorse (Winner's circle)
Contenders (Winner's circle)

SpeculatorPA (Sartin)

As you can see there is a huge gap between entropy and SpeculatorPA.

I am looking to add another software. My choice is down to Stealth by Winner's Circle and HSH.

HSH has a great website with ton of information. Stealth does not. I have seen threads on both. Again, a lot of information on HSH, but little on Stealth. I am sure it has to do with the way Winner's Circle Group operates.

For Stealth owners, can you tell me more about Stealth ? What it's strength's are and what it's weaknesses are ? What kind of win percent and ROI did you get ? I searched the message board. Only thing I saw was 2-3 line comments. I would really appreciate your help.

For HSH owners, how does the AI feature work ? Do you create profiles on what works at certain track or cvan you run the program and bet based on oddsline it produces ?


Thank you in advance for your help !!!

[cato]

I would stay away from Stealth. Its a black box and the developer died a few years ago. I understand that some folks have carried on the work but it just did not seem like a good situation when I checked into it.

Plus, the secretive, no information approach is in most cases a technique to make it look like what that person is selling you has more value. And that is rarely the case.

I also tried HSH but it was complicated and not very intuitive; although at the end of the day I think its a good program and I was just too lazy to use it to its fullest potential.

You seem to be looking at programs that are expensive and require expensive downloading. The theory is it must be of some great value (and therefore I can be profitable if I spend all that money). I've been down the same path. As a general statement its fool's gold. There are other great programs outthere that have all the bells and whistles but are not very expensive OR are free (but may require some downloading.

HTR and Synergism (?)-Bob Purdy's program--are excellent.
People appear to like Equisim and it is reasonably priced.
CJ's program is probably the best value in the industry today and next time I have any free time I am going to start playing with it.
For now, I use TMM becuase I like its simplicity and it does not require $120 a month to download, but last time I checked it was relatively expensive.

Look around. Gather information. If they act like they are selling you a secret or the "keys to the bank" its BS. The program will not make you successful--only you can make you successful (while being assisted by the tools of the program).

Good luck. Take care, Cato

[46zilzal]

I have posted in other threads that the later Sartin programs are supported on TWO (VERY different) Sartin yahoogroups; V/DC Messenger and Sartin ALums. LOTS of varied experience and good interaction from a knoweldgeable group of folks. Also, since PIRCO closed up, we have contribution from Sartin's programmer Guy Wadsworth who is still "fidgeting" with the program based upon input from the group so it is not dead ended software. If interested, just go to yahoogroups.com and join.

[Traderpace]

Cato and zilzal,

Thank you for your responses.

Cato - I am looking for feedback from actual users of Stealth. I may even want to purchase any newsletters they may have. I am not looking for a block box. I like the concept of the software and the deceleration module. I spoke to the founder John Rancont back in the 90s and also chatted with Danny Guest. I just wanted to see what the actual user has to say about the program and what kind of results they have gotten. I am aware of the instability of the group.

As far as HSH is concerned, I just put it out there because it seems to be a popular program.

I don't consider these programs or datafiles expensive. I bought SpeculatorPA and just purchased data for 4 full meets last year. Saratoga, Monmouth, Del Mar and churchill. It's not making money that drives me. it is doing the research and developing something new.

Zilzal - I do not have any questions about the speculator. I did my research and purchased it 2 weeks ago. I am a memeber of the 2 groups you mentioned.

Right now, I am concentrating on stealth. if any users or previous users can post and exchange ideas, I would appreciate it.

Thank you all. This is a great forum.

[garyoz]

About 10 years ago there weren't alot of software programs available. Focus had a regular add in the DRF and that was the first program I purchased. Many programs were in their infancy for example, the forerunner to Multicaps and Allways weren't even affilitated with Bris yet. Somehow I learned about Winner's Circle in the newsletter that Mark Cramer was associated with (O&C?). I never forgave them for touting Winner's Circle.

I was on a run and decided I wanted to invest in an additional software program. I called John Rancourt as touted in the newsletter. I had vague ideas about Fuzzy Logic and other things that Rancourt carried on about. He also touted a users group and a BBS (this was pre-Internet days and it was a dial-up to a Las Vegas number). I bought-in and I sent him a check for about $1,200 as I recall. He waited a really long time for the check to clear, as I recall.

I got the program and was trying to figure out how it arrived at the output. For the very first time in my life I posted to an online BBS and asked a question. I was immediately ridiculed by Rancourt (not just corrected) for posting to the wrong part of the BBS and said that I should have sent him a private message about questions. As I recall I received no support from the others in the "user group." I was really angry and decided on the spot that the program was not for me. Of course there was no trial refund or anything--so I ate the loss, and decided right there to have nothing to do with the Winner's Circle again and that they were bad karma. I have always kept that experience in mind and while I lost the money, I have always tried to cut my losses quickly instead of chasing a bad investment when it comes to handicapping.

I know nothing about the current efforts of the Winner's Circle.

[Traderpace]

Garyoz,

Thank you for your reply.

Ahhh, the good old Cramer & Ohlmstead (sp?) report. remember the Phillips Racing newsletter & Handicapper's Monthly ? Nothing earth shattering, but decent newsletters.

I spoke to John several times. Out of maybe 6-7 calls, I only had 1 pleasant conversation. I remember one time he accused me of trying to hack his software and break through the security seal. After several undignifying calls, I did get him to send me a replacement. (Autohorse has a one time only install feature. If you made a mistake you were pretty much done)

There are many software peddlers and not all know a thing about customer service. With negative feeling aside, I did ok with Autohorse and contenders. I fear that some user's opinion maybe slanted by horrible experience with their support.

All this aside, I thought the siftware was decent and I still would like your feedback on how you did with it. did you have Horse n Courses ? Autohorse ? Turf Investor ?

Thanks

[garyoz]

Been looking around for the software tonight (I have had two significant moves since I had last installed the software & who knows where it could have ended up). I had Turf Investor as I recall. I was not impressed with the output--I'm not a black box guy, and I really didn't use it enough to know if it would have worked for me. Plus the level of analysis by any handicapping software 11 years ago was not that great. I recall it being more descriptive than inferential. As I said, after being jerked around after a significant investment I decided to cut my losses and really didn't use the program.

When looking for the software tonight, I did find Aodds Gold--Bradshaw's old program, which worked pretty well for me. It was the software I moved onto after the "Winner's" Circle experience. But of course that was a PIRCO derivative.

[shoelessjoe]

Horses n Courses was a nice program and I did well.It was also manual input which saved on the data you need now from HDW.If you already have Spec I dont see a need for Stealth anyway.

[andicap]

Gary,
I couldn't get Aodds Gold to work for me -- could never get much of a straight answer from any of the Aodds people on the best way to use the software or what the various categories meant. E.G. Which measured early speed the best, closers?

Kept hearing -- pick the right paceline, which when someone tells me that I get suspicious because I don't think a single line can represent a horse's entire effort. It's a form CYCLE, not a form race.

So how did you use it?

[46zilzal]

Kept hearing -- pick the right paceline, which when someone tells me that I get suspicious because I don't think a single line can represent a horse's entire effort. It's a form CYCLE, not a form race.

support that 100%....decreasing total energy and/or increasing % median are a sure signs of that cycle going SOUTH, when demonstrated PROGRSSIVELY over a THREE race period. Multiple lines will show that when they cannot carry their speed over a progressively shortening distance (i.e. over three races at 8.5f they begin to lose contact with the pace at 8, 7 then 6 furlongs), they are ready for a rest, OR shortening the distance at which they have been competing.

You should ALWAYS find a second paceline that substantiates what the initial one discovered or you are prone to SAMPLE ERROR.

[aaron]

I used Stealth about 4-5 years ago.I still have the program,but haven't used in about 3 years.The program had some good points and was not really a black box type of program.I found the feedback from members pretty good.
Danny Guest even called me a couple of times to see how I was doing.My biggest problem with the software is that I didn't find it to able to give me any edge in playing NY races.In some cases it caused me to miss winners.I did find it helpful when playing out of town.I also thought the software was better suited for players who like to spread.I find that when I spread a lot,I lose a lot.I probably could have given it a better test run,but since I make most of my bets in NY,I found it to be a distraction at a track where I had bias notes and horses to watch.

[shoelessjoe]

Actually I had a bad experience with them.I got a new computer reinstalled the disc which got corrupted.I contacted WC and they wanted to charge me $250 just to get a new disc.Besides having to pay HDW 140 a month I just took the loss. Shoeless

[garyoz]

I couldn't get Aodds Gold to work for me -- could never get much of a straight answer from any of the Aodds people on the best way to use the software or what the various categories meant. E.G. Which measured early speed the best, closers?Kept hearing -- pick the right paceline, which when someone tells me that I get suspicious because I don't think a single line can represent a horse's entire effort. It's a form CYCLE, not a form race.
So how did you use it?

andicap:

I used Aodds so long ago I can't remember the ouput very well. I used it in 1995-96 as I recall. One thing with the program that I remember is that it did minimum adjustments and used alot of raw times. I remember that I found one factor that just ranked horses a "supra"something that was very effective for turf races. Other than that I'm not sure how much I used picks from the program, mostly I think putting it into the handicapping mix. I had no systematic paceline selection methodology, mainly used the default. I did have slightly better than a 10% ROI for that period, which was one of my better years. I was also playing regularly and only playing NYRA at the time, and living in NYC, so I was really close to the racing. That also could have accounted for a profitable run. The next year I changed jobs and played far less often and lost money then moved onto to other software. Maybe I should reinstall Aodds Gold like old times. I have "collected" and tested-out alot of software over the last decade.

I agree with you that programs based on paceline selection are self-limiting. It really comes down to not all the horses in the race are likely to run to a back line. They can however provide excellent insight.

I've posted before that I'm a form cycle handicapper. I did have a good run for 2 out of 3 years using Synergism (I think the best paceline-based software) and Speed Figures (mostly ON-Target but sometime Thorograph or The Sheets). I used them in conjunction with each other. I did manually select the pacelines in Synergism, very time consuming, but very insightful. I selected pacelines on some unconventional angles. When I have the time to devote to handicapping, I will probably go back to using Synergism again. I always use some type of figs, lately CJ's or Equiforms. Figs and a good pace oriented program can be powerful compliments (IMHO).

[kitts]

I have owned/used almost all the software mentioned above and after about three years came full circle back to the software I was using before I started my quest. It works for me and I urge you to check it out.
http://www.cynthiapublishing.com

[andicap]

Kitts,

Is that WMF that Cynthia Pub has in the Handy Capper any good? Does it really predict the types of races likely to have extreme pace tendencies?

[garyoz]

I have always avoided anything from Cynthia Publishing. Didn't they evolve out of the whole SoCal crowd that included Dick Mitchell, et al? Once burned twice shy, I have just never liked the feel of their products and their marketing. I don't have any real concrete evidence in my decision to avoid them, just a knee jerk reaction. I'm open-minded about Handy Capper--don't know much about it.

BTW,besides the software discussed in the above thread, I spent alot of time understanding the capabilities and numerous problems with Allways.

[Topcat]

HSH:

I have HSH and I would tell you this: I've owned and researched just about
all the software out there. I started with DOS based software and If you want to win $s you go with HSH-if you are looking for a couple of days of recreational betting a year-just go with one of BRIS or ITS freebies-for that I would just use ITS HDRF and go with the consensus-or probably just Pandy's Picks-he does a real good job of getting the winner within his contenders and has some price horse in there.

But if you are looking at betting more frequently and want something a cut above-it's definitely HSH-it's top of the class
the only other ones I would put in that class (and these are all running for second place) would be HTR2, Netcapper, All-In-One, and maybe Handicapping Magic-although I have doubts about that one. IF you want a cheapie that is a decent black box I would go with Aplus or Contenders but they are pretty much one dimensional. HSH is multi-dimensional and most users do not use all the features-you don’t have to.

On the AI feature(s) there's really a couple of ways to go-Dave Schwartz can explain -but you've basically got it right. HSH does have multiple ways to win-if you just want a black box approach it has that-punch one button-Dave will accommodate users and has even incorporated some methods in to a one button click. It has an odds line but the best aspect of HSH in my opinion is what Dave calls Pickmaster-it scans the database for races just like the one you are handicapping and then finds the factors that win for that race. He's got a filters application built in and a systems approach that allows you to build a system and test against your database of races. I've got one little system that catches 5% of all races and wins 20% of the time and turns a profit-it isn't a huge profit but I've tested it against 243,000 races thanks to HSH and with Pinnacle that covers some $s.

Dave's support is the best-he usually answers on the board the same day but for any tricky questions or problems he always says "give me a call." There's no documentation but Dave has put out 16 CDs that are audio/video screen shots and get into systems and methods. As an aside I used to work in software support and we found that, at least among men, less then 1% read our manual-many of our on-site visits found documentation unopened after two years and the software we were selling was 6 figures and very complicated- Users would rather call then open the documentation.

This is just my opinion and I do not profit one penny from any HSH sales-as a matter of fact I am confidently counting on the fact that most people will pass on HSH as I wouldn't want to lose my edge

[TonyK@HSH]

I'd strongly recommend HSH. I've used it for years and coukd not be more pleased. Dave continues to add enhancements and catering to his clients, Customer service is excellent. I'd suggest giving Dave a call to see if it fits your style.

TonyK

[46zilzal]

find something that works FOR YOU, learn EVERYTHING about it ...stay with it.

Find a venue (HINT: usually a liitle one) where you are NOT competing with big services and lots of other sophsiticated handicappers, and

Do better

[Slohand]

I to, have run the gammet with software. There are some good ones out there. One of the best is EquisimROI. I have JCAPPER which I really like for the longshots. Another program that is very good is AMAZING CAPPER III. It has a catagory of 'could be dangerous', that gets some really nice prices.

[midnight]

I knew guys who used Stealth, and neither one of them did any good with it. I'm sure it has its supporters, but I totally distrust a program that picks the pacelines and doesn't allow the user any input.

I also remember John Rancount. The man was very intelligent, but he was also very eccentric and egotistical, and he came off to me as the type who only knew two ways of doing things: his way and the wrong way.

[WaHoo]

I use the Amazing Capper III the summary and contender reports has improved the program with more info. Trainer win% Maidens 1st and 2nd out gets alot of winners, Lsp2 &3 (longshot possible) also. then theres the equipment change and trouble last race and Bold pts.. the Summary report puts the info on one page with the top 2 contenders of all catagories to look at.