View Full Version : Historians vs. George W. Bush
...A recent informal, unscientific survey of historians conducted at my suggestion by George Mason University’s History News Network found that eight in ten historians responding rate the current presidency an overall failure.
http://hnn.us/resources/bushpoll1.gif
... The past presidencies most commonly linked with the current administration include all of those that are usually rated as the worst in the nation’s history: Nixon, Harding, Hoover, Buchanan, Coolidge, Andrew Johnson, Grant, and McKinley.
http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html
Bobby
05-24-2005, 09:23 AM
yea, I agree. Bush has not really ACCOMPLISHED anything. Defecits are soaring. We're at war. HEalth care astronomical. Cut taxes for the rich. Open up the borders. Gas prices high. Just, in general, BAD THINGS. Yea, seniors got a drug plan with the drug co's stamp of approval and Laura is attractive. But those things don't matter.
9-11 is really the only reason he's still president (And the fact that the DEMS nominated some NE democrat that doesn't have a chance in the South)
Historically, he's a dud. Maybe like Taft
PaceAdvantage
05-24-2005, 11:11 AM
LOL
Bobby
05-24-2005, 02:24 PM
On the other hand, Bill Clinton presided over a booming economy, low unemployment, defecits dropped, high-standing around the world, tax cuts for the middle class, patient bill of rights. Just, in general, good things.
Yea, he was little corrupt, kinda slick, but good things happened.
kenwoodallpromos
05-24-2005, 02:48 PM
Yes I ALWAYS hear the Baby Bush dictatorship link forever with the Grant Presidency!
George Mason University Musllim Student Union link themselved to the Jihad through their paintball team.
kenwoodallpromos
05-24-2005, 02:57 PM
Interpreting the Declaration of Independence by Translation
How does translation affect how we understand the past? In this roundtable, historians discuss the translation and reception of the Declaration of Independence in Japan, Mexico, Russia, China, Poland, Italy, Germany, Spain, and Israel. In addition to these reflections, the site includes actual translations of the Declaration into several different languages and "retranslations" back into English to illustrate the effects of translation on how a key historical document has been understood.
___________________
That means a non-USA global village interpretation of the DOI! How the hell do you think the governments of Russia and China will recieve our DOI?
:lol:
JustRalph
05-24-2005, 03:37 PM
This thread would be funny if I didn't know that you guys are taking yourselves seriously........vaudville lives........
46zilzal
05-24-2005, 03:37 PM
...A recent informal, unscientific survey of historians conducted at my suggestion by George Mason University’s History News Network found that eight in ten historians responding rate the current presidency an overall failure.
I am all for free speech, but I cannot recall one of your posts in relation to horses. Correct me if I am wrong.
46zilzal I am all for free speech, but I cannot recall one of your posts in relation to horses. Correct me if I am wrong.I have posted in the software section. My days of analyzing individual races particularly using sartin factors ended a few years ago. Not that I think it cannot be done successfully, far from it. Just not for me. I read those posts however, including yours, and respect those that attempt to "divine" a race. I apply intuition in other areas of life, and certainly acknowledge in my own field, the best craftsman or artisans go further than reading blueprints and calipers, and bring more to making a table or chair than just rules. My own better projects are usually a result of both experience and intuition
Some of the most successful handicappers I have known personally are seat of the pants types.
However, I let my homegrown software do almost all the work including final picks. Over the long run, certainly there have been periods that have been profitable, but overall not consistant.
I am now very close to beating the take. Got stuck in a backfitting cycle. Now my program automatically profiles past similiar races, weeds out non contenders and records its picks. Can run months of races, and analyze races it has not seen, and tabulate going forward.
Steady but slow progress.
Thanks for asking
I was basically apolitical before bush. After bush I find it difficult to ignore the world situation. Alarming to say the least. Horse racing is still on the agenda, but THE AGENDA is on the agenda. Troubling times.
Hcap, historian suggests that they look back and make judgements in historical perspective. What you are talking about right now is not historians. You can't make historical judgments in the present.
JustRalph
05-24-2005, 10:38 PM
Hcap, historian suggests that they look back and make judgements in historical perspective. What you are talking about right now is not historians. You can't make historical judgments in the present.
Sure you can Tom. You plagarize other "Historians" very common of their ilk
Dick Schmidt
05-25-2005, 02:40 AM
Back a great many years ago, when I was a History major, I was taught a rule about interpreting history: No good history is ever written until everyone who participated in the events have died. We are just now completing rational looks at WWI and the start of the depression, and will soon be able to consider WWII from an objective perspective.
Any such poll of "historians" on today's current events is a poll of college teachers. They don't like Bush. Big surprise. In one poll back in the 70's, a majority of Americans thought Nixon was worse than Hitler. Anyone care to defend that position now? Bush's place in history will be found in 2070 or so.
Dick
"One may speak of peace only with those who are peaceful. To talk peace with he who holds a drawn sword is foolish, unless one is unarmed, and then one must talk very fast indeed." - Louis L'Amour
"Stop quoting laws to us. We carry swords"
-Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus
Secretariat
05-25-2005, 08:03 AM
BBush's place in history will be found in 2070 or so.
I wonder what the deficit will be then.
Tom Hcap, historian suggests that they look back and make judgements in historical perspective. What you are talking about right now is not historians. You can't make historical judgments in the present.George W. Bush, when asked by Bob Woodward "how is history likely to judge your Iraq war?" replied, "History, we don't know. We'll all be dead.".....Woodward Shares War Secrets, CBS News, 60 Minutes, April 18, 2004
Well I guess he got that one right Tom, question is will bush do anything to hasten the process?
dav4463
05-26-2005, 05:48 AM
The irrational hatred of our president who is only trying to do what he believes is right is unbelievable to me. We should show more respect to the man who is leading our country. The media jumps on him, people follow, then more, then 85% who hate the president don't even know why they hate him.....uh,,,, everybody else hates him....duh,,,,, i guess i should too....
46zilzal
05-26-2005, 10:41 AM
the rutabaga is doing a very poor job at the helm. Is it surprising that people point that OUT?
Lefty
05-26-2005, 11:49 AM
orog posted by hcap
Well I guess he got that one right Tom, question is will bush do anything to hasten the process?
hcap, hey, you must be another one of those "nicer" liberals that Jeanne Garafalo was talking about.
I think bush is worsening the world situation, and will only precipitate major conflicts and problems. Nuclear proliferation is not stopped by invading Iraq. Or Iran for that matter. The so-called war on terror is masking bigger problems, and not getting at the root of the problem.
Global threat of terror is increasing not decreasing.
From The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists:
...In the second half of the 1990s, Abdul Qadeer Khan, scientist and "father" of Pakistan's nuclear program, supplied uranium enrichment equipment and perhaps even warhead designs to North Korea, according to some news reports. Khan originally came to world attention for stealing centrifuge designs and equipment while working in the Netherlands in the 1970s. After returning to Pakistan, Khan used suppliers from around the world to build centrifuges capable of enriching uranium for Pakistan's bomb program. Those vendors and manufacturers became the foundation of an extensive and profitable black market run by Khan and others, which amassed hundreds of millions of dollars. U.S. intelligence agencies monitored Khan's network for years but did little to halt the traffic, so as not to compromise sources and methods or, later, jeopardize relations with Pakistan. Achieving short-term foreign policy goals took precedence over preventing widespread nuclear proliferation.
(note: I realize this was during Clinton's watch. Lefty I will not defend him, so don't ask me to.)
Miscalculation by any of these global actors can lead to disaster.
Global nuclear stockpiles, 1945–2002
..Of the more than 30,000 intact warheads belonging to the world's eight nuclear weapon states, the vast majority (96 percent) are in U.S. or Russian stockpiles. About 17,500 of these warheads are considered operational.
...China is estimated to have an arsenal of around 400 nuclear warheads, down from 435 in 1993. China is thought to have produced some 600 nuclear warheads since 1964, and U.S. intelligence and defense agencies predict that over the next 15 years China may increase the number of warheads on primarily U.S-targeted missiles from 20 to between 75--100.
..India and Pakistan, the world's two newest declared nuclear powers, have fewer than 100 nuclear warheads between them, most of which are not yet operationally deployed. We estimate that India has produced enough fissile material for 45--95 nuclear warheads but may have assembled only 30--35, and that Pakistan has produced fissile material sufficient for 30--52 weapons and assembled 24--48 warheads. Both countries are thought to be increasing their stockpiles.
...Israel has neither confirmed nor denied possession of nuclear weapons, although U.S. intelligence reports for many years have labeled Israel a de facto nuclear power. Some unofficial reports estimate Israel's arsenal to have as many as 200 warheads, the first of which reportedly was assembled in 1967.
...North Korea's probable possession of nuclear weapons presents a serious and extremely complicated problem, with implications that could drastically affect Asian security and, by extension, U.S. interests as well.
signed The Nice Liberal
George W. Bush, when asked by Bob Woodward "how is history likely to judge your Iraq war?" replied, "History, we don't know. We'll all be dead.".....Woodward Shares War Secrets, CBS News, 60 Minutes, April 18, 2004I did say...
"Well I guess he got that one right Tom, question is will bush do anything to hasten the process?"Here's another overeaction by the DOD that could hasten the process. Last week, the Washington Post reported that CONPLAN 8022 is a military program that could drag the world into nuclear war.
CONPLAN 8022 by Stratcom, the U.S. Army's Strategic Command, calls for preemptive nuclear strikes against bad guys like Iran and North Korea. The use of nuclear weapons to destroy underground facilities where North Korea and Iran may be developing nuclear weapons. Standard bunker busters are not capable of taking out these labs.
The experts call these "small" bombs, which would have a slight effect on the environment. They claim the radioactive fallout would be negligible, and the "collateral damage" caused to civilians would be minimal. Yeah right.
Each bomb would have a 10-kiloton (hiroshima-20 kilotons) yield. Five to ten "small bombs" would be needed for Iran or North Korea. 10 hiroshima like events in each country!
What about the political and psychological repercussions of using nuclear weapons for the first time in more than 60 years. The bushies regard all this as "limited collateral damage." Crossing the line would be a disaster.
Of course the underlying problem is the bush doctrine of pre-emption.
Look how wrong they were in Iraq. Maybe the intel will be correct this time.
But maybe they won't get it right. Maybe they will target a minimal threat facility, and take out 1000's of civilians. Or if your off 100 feet and accomplish nothing. How do you explain the major boo-boo. Was it a slam dunk again? Sorry george tennet is unemployed this time
The ends justify the means? Ultimitely that IS THE POLICY we are living under.
Another day in Pee-Wee's play/fun house.
signed The Nice Liberal
Lefty
05-26-2005, 07:12 PM
aw hell, let's just lay down our arms and ask the world to be nice to us. That always works.
No simple answers to complex problems. Being bold and wrong, is worse than being smart and cautious.
Lefty
05-26-2005, 07:40 PM
So far GW not wrong. Doing nothing is not caution; it's nuts!
Secretariat
05-26-2005, 09:08 PM
So far GW not wrong. Doing nothing is not caution; it's nuts!
Doing nothin is not caution; it's nuts huh? I guess that's why when it was verified by the CIA that it was al Queda that hit the USS Cole, that Bush did nothing. or when he was given a personal memroandum that Bin Laden Determined to Attack in the US he decided to go on vacation for a month. GW did nothing before 911, and has been trying to overcompensate since. Unfortunately, he's made one poor judgment after another.
lsbets
05-26-2005, 09:20 PM
Doing nothin is not caution; it's nuts huh? I guess that's why when it was verified by the CIA that it was al Queda that hit the USS Cole, that Bush did nothing. or when he was given a personal memroandum that Bin Laden Determined to Attack in the US he decided to go on vacation for a month. GW did nothing before 911, and has been trying to overcompensate since. Unfortunately, he's made one poor judgment after another.
Sec, let me ask you a serious question. If it turns out that democracy of a sort takes hold in Iraq and spreads in the Middle East similar to the way it did in Eastern Europe, will you be happy to say "I was wrong, Bush did accomplish some pretty good stuff?" Or will you be bitterly partisan to the end? Would you agree that it would be good for American if in 20 years it turned out that no matter how good your intentions you were wrong on the whole Iraq issue?
aw hell, let's just lay down our arms and ask the world to be nice to us. That always works.
They murdered Ghandi, fer cryin out loud.
Lefty
05-26-2005, 09:53 PM
sec, i blve that the USS Cole happened during Clinton yrs. Clinton also had bin ladin in his sites 4 times did nothing. He let Saddam brk resolution after resolution while tettorists were training in Iraq and did nothing. And now ya wanna blame it on Bush? Typical.
And now there's 2 new democracies in middle east where none were before and the terrorists are on the run there's not been another 9-11 and yet the libs say it would be better to do nothing.
dav4463
05-27-2005, 12:00 AM
We are still the greatest country in the world. Too bad that so many of our own people hate our country. Funny how most of them don't want to leave though isn't it ? Most of them make too much money to leave so they would rather stay here and complain anyway....make people think they "care so much" about the rest of the world and its people.
ElKabong
05-27-2005, 12:08 AM
Doing nothin is not caution; it's nuts huh? I guess that's why when it was verified by the CIA that it was al Queda that hit the USS Cole, that Bush did nothing. or when he was given a personal memroandum that Bin Laden Determined to Attack in the US he decided to go on vacation for a month. GW did nothing before 911, and has been trying to overcompensate since. Unfortunately, he's made one poor judgment after another.
Let's blame George for the 1993 bombing of the WTC, shall we!! We sure got to the bottom of THAT deal now didn't we?!
Whoda thunk some blind clerik was just the tip of the iceberg...
"George W. Bush, when asked by Bob Woodward "how is history likely to judge your Iraq war?" replied, "History, we don't know. We'll all be dead.".....Woodward Shares War Secrets, CBS News, 60 Minutes, April 18, 2004
Ok, let's say 20 years instead.
Bush Hails Naval Academy Graduates
Friday, May 27, 2005
West Point Class of 2005 Gears Up for War on Terror
ANNAPOLIS, Md. — "The U.S. military is on the offensive in the War on Terror to prevent terrorists from reaching America's shores", President Bush said Friday, adding that 20 years from now, historians will look back on the Iraq war as "America's golden moment."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157853,00.html
I guess he forgot his "We'll all be dead" line?
Who needs 20 years, as tennet would say, slam dunk.
Lefty
05-27-2005, 08:16 PM
hcap, don't you have anything better to do than nitpick at every word the President utters? He has established 2 democracies where none before existed and you want to pick at his words? You libs must be a desperate bunch...
wonatthewire1
05-27-2005, 09:10 PM
Friedman, once one of the biggest supporters of the invasion of Iraq has a lot of questions today: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/opinion/27friedman.html?hp
You would have thought that the Nuremberg trials would have taught us some lessons, as the Allies tried some of the most worst criminals in history. But history fades > even the most heinous history of all.
We shall see...
lsbets
05-27-2005, 09:19 PM
Death Camp? I think you need some history lessons.
wonatthewire1
05-27-2005, 09:31 PM
How many will get out alive?
That's a death camp...
Rather ironic that it is on land leased on the Commie Island of Cuba.
kenwoodallpromos
05-27-2005, 10:20 PM
"Order No. 11, issued by General Ulysses S. Grant 1862, expelling Jews from Tennessee (allegedly for looting). According to documentation within the collection, General Halleck immediately revoked the order prior to the lobbying effort of the Board."
How many will get out alive?
That's a death camp...
Rather ironic that it is on land leased on the Commie Island of Cuba.
People die in prison. Death camps?
People die in hospital. Death camps?
Who allows the prisoners to observe thier twice daily prayer sessions? WE DO.
Who allows the prisoners top have korans, and keep them private? WE DO.
Who were the battlefield targets of these terroists in the camp? WE WERE.
Who was arrested on the battlefield, taking up arm agains our troop? THEY WERE!
you know how to win a war?
Build an army out dedicated volunteers who are willing to fight for their country.
Give them training on the use of cutting edge technology.
Provide them with state of the art equipment.
Tell them what the mission is and what is at stake.
GET OUT OF THEIR WAY!
Autralian lady sentenced to 20 years for drugs in Bali. she could death penalty is she appels. Same court sentenced a man who assisted in the Bali terror attakcs - hundreds killed. Gave him 30 months!
You want to live under OUR justice system, or thiers?:confused:
wonatthewire1
05-28-2005, 03:55 PM
"WE DO"
You can keep your "we"
We'll see how the war crimes trials work out!
Any of your pals enlisted yet > or do they all have better things to do as our Glorious Vice President once said about Vietnam? Rep. DeLay just couldn't elbow those "minorities" out of the way to get into the Army either > such a shame!
Oh, and, think about the Cuba connection sometime.
lsbets
05-28-2005, 04:20 PM
[QUOTE=wonatthewire1
Any of your pals enlisted yet > or do they all have better things to do as our Glorious Vice President once said about Vietnam? connection sometime.[/QUOTE]
Hey won - not sure if Tom counts me as a pal or not, but I just spent over a year in Iraq.
P.S. - I am proud to be a part of the "we" Tom was referring to.
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 07:37 PM
Stupid waste of human lives that has NOT ACCOMPLISHED a thing, NADA, nothing.
More folks are going to die, for what? so the rutabaga can claim a NEW reason for going after the "terrists"
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 07:46 PM
Too bad that so many of our own people hate our country.
The "your'e either with me or aggin' me" rhetoric has gotten to be really old. This fellow is an elected official doing a poor job. It is the electorate's DUTY to be critical of him and his programs, especially when a significant portion of that electorate DISAGREES with him. That is just DISAGREEMENT no hatred there.
PaceAdvantage
05-28-2005, 08:00 PM
The "your'e either with me or aggin' me" rhetoric has gotten to be really old. This fellow is an elected official doing a poor job.
Not as old as the anti-Bush rhetoric you see replayed over and over again in off-topic....not by a longshot....
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 08:12 PM
It has not gone as FAR, but when the OTHER DICK took this country down the garden path in trying to win another un-winnable war, people NOTICED and spoke up.....EVENTUALY the clowns at the helm had to take notice. "THEY are tearing this country apart" was THIER rhetorical line when it in reality their LUNATIC policies that were causing the unrest.
Lefty
05-28-2005, 08:17 PM
Yeah, 46 and won, we really begged for 9-11, didn't we? All we do is help the world and some lunatics are not only after us but the whole world if ya hadn't noticed so it's your anti-american rhetoric that's getting real old and tiresome. We've accomplished a lot but guess you have your head so far up your derierre you havn't noticed.
JustRalph
05-28-2005, 08:19 PM
The "your'e either with me or aggin' me" rhetoric has gotten to be really old. This fellow is an elected official doing a poor job. It is the electorate's DUTY to be critical of him and his programs, especially when a significant portion of that electorate DISAGREES with him. That is just DISAGREEMENT no hatred there.
forgive me if I am wrong..........but aren't you the Canadian doctor?
What the hell does it matter to you?
Lefty
05-28-2005, 08:20 PM
46, disagreement? It's more than that when Kennedy accuse him of "cooking" up the war and Harry Reid addresses a bunch of schoolchildren and calls the Pres. a loser and then the constant rants on this board. Sorry if you disagree with keepong this country free of terrorists but that's what it's all about.
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 08:24 PM
Yeah, 46 and won,
By no strech of ANYONE's IMAGINATION did the U.S. Win the war that time round.....just left
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 08:26 PM
forgive me if I am wrong..........but aren't you the Canadian doctor?
What the hell does it matter to you? I live there but the clown at the helm is NO LESS an EMBARASSMENT to me....I have the SAME passport as the majority of the people right here.
Lefty
05-28-2005, 08:46 PM
46, by no stretch did I say we won the Dems Vietnam war, I was talking about the war and terror when I said 46 and won, I was addressing you and the other lib wonatthewire, ya gotta read a little better, son or dr!
Lefty
05-28-2005, 08:47 PM
46, the U.S. is an embarrasment to you? Well, without us you're Canadian bacon ass wouldn't be free either.
lsbets
05-28-2005, 08:49 PM
I live there but the clown at the helm is NO LESS an EMBARASSMENT to me....I have the SAME passport as the majority of the people right here.
Based on this post and your previous - curoius why you live there? Did you run from the draft during Vietnam and decide to stay, or was it something else?
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 08:49 PM
46, the U.S. is an embarrasment to you?
GEORGE IS NOT U.S. thank goodness..HE is an embarassement
46zilzal
05-28-2005, 08:51 PM
Based on this post and your previous - curoius why you live there? Did you run from the draft during Vietnam and decide to stay, or was it something else?
I took my residency at a major university hospital, my wife had some major medical problems so we stayed...WENT all through the draft "finger pointing" LONG ago . I registered, had a high lottery number and was NEVER called.
WHY do you live where you do??? We used to have a joke in our anatomy lab that the valves of Houston (named for an ENGLISH doctor) were given that title AFTER an anatomist had visited Texas. They represent a portion of the bowel. The fellows from there started that one. They laughed about where they called home. No big deal....people live all over the place now don't they?
Lefty
05-28-2005, 08:56 PM
46, guess you don't blve in elections, huh? George as you call him, represents this great country whether you like it or not!
lsbets
05-28-2005, 09:09 PM
I took my residency at a major university hospital, my wife had some major medical problems so we stayed...WENT all through the draft "finger pointing" LONG ago . I registered, had a high lottery number and was NEVER called.
WHY do you live where you do??? We used to have a joke in our anatomy lab that the valves of Houston (named for an ENGLISH doctor) were given that title AFTER an anatomist had visited Texas. They represent a portion of the bowel. The fellows from there started that one. They laughed about where they called home. No big deal....people live all over the place now don't they?
I was curious, that is all. You have shown a great deal of hostility and condescenscion to those in the military, and when you said you lived in Canada, I was wondering if the draft was the reason. I wasn't fingerpointing at all - to tell you the truth, I could care less, Carter pardoned the draft dodgers a long time ago, it really doesn't matter to me. Clinton's draft dodgring was never an issue with me, neither was his "I loathe the military comment". I honestly believe that people grow up, and what they do at 20 is not nearly as relevant as what they do at 40. I can understand you defensiveness, but it wasn't needed in my case.
How did I get to Texas? Well, I've lived in Florida, New Jersey, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Texas, and spent a lot of time in New York. When I left active duty I was stationed at Fort Hood, and I'll tell you I haven't found a better place to live than Texas. If you count overseas I've also lived in Kuwait, Iraq, and Bosnia. Bosnia is a beautiful country, and I really look forward to visiting there at some point in the future. The old, tree covered mountains are incredible. I also loved Hungary, that is a great country, and an awesome place to be a young, single American. Budapest is an inceredible city. I never really liked Germany when I passed through there, but I love the fact that you can find an open bar serving cold beer in the Frankfurt airport at 6 in the morning.
Nothing? Nada?
Geez, tell that to the people who voted for the first time in 30 years in Iraq.
Ditto Afghanistan.
Tell the women who can take off their veils without being stoned to death.
Did you know that they now play soccer in the same stadium where the Taliban used to hang people for no reason?
Nada?
Tell that to the thousands of mournig family members who were finally able to claim the bodies of their loved ones murdered by SH years before when the US uncovered the mass graves. BTW, do you know who has killed more muslems than any one in history.....Sadam Hussien.
Nada?
Explain the nuclear weapons Khadaffy turned over. What is the chance they will be used against us no that they are out out of circulation.
Nada?
Tell that to the 40,000 Iraqi's putting thier lives on the line to take back Baghdad from the terroists.
Your sorry little view of what is right allowed some of the worst inhumane acts against innocent people in history. But then we wouldn't want to disturb your little world, now, would we?
46zilzal
05-29-2005, 12:04 AM
Your sorry little view of what is right allowed some of the worst inhumane acts against innocent people in history. But then we wouldn't want to disturb your little world, now, would we?
My view actually ALLOWED something like that?? News to me. No one asked before any of that happened. Or maybe that was that long distance phone call I missed ASKING ME to allow that...I guess I just missed that one.
46zilzal
05-29-2005, 12:23 AM
I was curious, that is all. You have shown a great deal of hostility and condescenscion to those in the military,
We are ALL subject to our OWN life's experiences. I grew up near a large base and learned very early to be wary of ANYONE in a uniform as they were very likely to go "ballasitic" at any time. THE soliders used to hang out at a restaurant next to a theater I visited as a child and we would often hide down the alley (wating for the bus home) so as NOT to run into them staggering out of the bar with a look to find someone to "prove" they could be TOUGH and fight with. Neighbor married one and had to take her to the E R several times when he came home and couldn't get out of "soldier mode." Friends coming back from military service were screwed up for many years causing marriages to break up and lots of pyschiatric help. Many of my friends NEVER returned and are on that big black wall in D.C. When the EXTENT of one's experiences with the SAME entity get repeated again and again and again, what rational response to that stimulus do you think one gains? DISDAIN.
Same thing with any OTHER entity: If I had been kicked and run over by a horse on many separate occasions, I would surely NOT have the opinion of them I have today.
My ONLY GOOD experience with the military was spending a month rotating through the Army hospital at Fort Ord where I was made very welcome by their staff.
ElKabong
05-29-2005, 01:00 AM
Funny stuff. Most doctors I ever knew drank far too much, and were vain as hell....go figure.
Lefty
05-29-2005, 01:01 AM
46 says:
We are ALL subject to our OWN life's experiences. I grew up near a large base and learned very early to be wary of ANYONE in a uniform as they were very likely to go "ballasitic" at any time
46, whatever happened to all those grey areas you often refer to? Sounds like you never got out of that child mode, hmmm.
Lefty
05-29-2005, 01:04 AM
46, A dentist hurt me when i was a child and I never went back. My teeth all rotted and fell out. Dentists, who needs em?
46zilzal
05-29-2005, 01:14 AM
a one time thing changed your life! My goodness
I said..I think bush is worsening the world situation, and will only precipitate major conflicts and problems. Nuclear proliferation is not stopped by invading Iraq. Or Iran for that matter. The so-called war on terror is masking bigger problems, and not getting at the root of the problem.
Global threat of terror is increasing not decreasing.Well it looks like the slumberbums are waking up a bit.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/28/AR2005052801171.html
"President Bush's top adviser on terrorism, Frances Fragos Townsend, said in an interview that the review is needed to take into account the "ripple effect" from years of operations targeting al Qaeda leaders such as Khalid Sheik Mohammed, arrested for planning the Sept. 11 attacks, and his recently detained deputy. "Naturally, the enemy has adapted," she said. "As you capture a Khalid Sheik Mohammed, an Abu Faraj al-Libbi raises up. Nature abhors a vacuum."
...."Much of the discussion has focused on how to deal with the rise of a new generation of terrorists, schooled in Iraq over the past couple years. Top government officials are increasingly turning their attention to anticipate what one called "the bleed out" of hundreds or thousands of Iraq-trained jihadists back to their home countries throughout the Middle East and Western Europe. "It's a new piece of a new equation," a former senior Bush administration official said. "If you don't know who they are in Iraq, how are you going to locate them in Istanbul or London?"
A tacit admission that all is not well in bush/dream/playhouseland
Before the war Iraq was not a major source of terrorism. Now it is. Big time.
A tacit admission that terrorism has increased because of our foolish misadventure.
Lefty
05-29-2005, 11:38 AM
"before the war Iraq was not a major source of terrorism"
Yeah, they were just meeting there; training there, getting some funds there. Now we have drawn them in there and are killing them there; not here.
This Muslim thing has been brewing for years so don't go lay it at the feets of Bush. He's the one directing the fight of it and it's no secret they hate us and any and all non-muslims and the fight will go on. Bush joined it, didn't start it. And you libs aren't helping by constantly bad mouthing Bush at every opportunity. The fight is on and for those who can't be there it's not a lot to ask that we be for the Pres and America in sporit and prayers; and show our enemies a united front.
My view actually ALLOWED something like that?? News to me. No one asked before any of that happened. Or maybe that was that long distance phone call I missed ASKING ME to allow that...I guess I just missed that one.
You and others like you who were the selfish ones, not caring about other people in the world. Not caring about torture chambers, genocide, brutality agasint women. Tell, what criteria do you use to decide who is worht saving and who is not? Religion, skin color, wealth? sounds like real racism to me.
What terrorists?
Saddam, like other Arab leaders, had offered rewards to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, and gave refuge in Baghdad to Hamas leader Abu Nidal.
Evidence of a close operational link between Saddam and world terrorism?
Nada. Al Qaida. Nada.
You guys spun the evidence that an al Qaida-linked outfit that had probably fled Afghanistan was operating in the northern Kurdish territory – which everybody acknowledged was out of Saddam Hussein's direct control and operating as a virtually autonomous entity – as further evidence of a close link between Saddam and al Qaida.??
There was never any links of Iraq to international terrorism stronger than practised in countries like Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. In fact Pakistan because of proliferation of nukes, known by us since the late 90,s was much more of a danger. The mistake you guys continue to make is
911= Iraq
More likely Saudia Arabia, because of the nationality of the 911 hijackers, is a better fit. So
911=Saudia Arabia WE shoulda shellacked the Saudi's instead
What the article I just posted confirms is that the much ballyhooed "flypapper" theory is another failed justification for this senseless war.
You guys remember the flypapper theory don't ya? It states that even if this was unplanned it is really a blessing in disguise. We will attract all the terrorists and potential terrorists in the Middle East to Iraq where getting rid of them will be like shooting fish in a barrel?
The flypaper theeory, assumes that the number of terrorists is finite and more or less fixed – so every terrorist killed in Iraq is one more we won't have to worry about later. Keep believing oh you true believers. Except the slumberbums have moved on to duh...
...."Much of the discussion has focused on how to deal with the rise of a new generation of terrorists, schooled in Iraq over the past couple years. Top government officials are increasingly turning their attention to anticipate what one called "the bleed out" of hundreds or thousands of Iraq-trained jihadists back to their home countries throughout the Middle East and Western Europe".
Lefty
05-29-2005, 08:10 PM
hcap, nada my butt. Zarquawi was in Iraq training terrorists before the war and the connection between him and Bin Ladin HAS been established. So quit dealing in your b.s. Hey, why don't you learn to love this country more than you hate Bush?
ElKabong
05-30-2005, 12:03 AM
Go count em up... Below is just one. There are many more.
"Nada". That's funny.
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200310210934.asp
--Along Iraq's border with Syria, U.S. troops captured Farouk Hijazi, Hussein's former ambassador to Turkey and suspected liaison to al Qaeda. Under interrogation, Hijazi "admitted meeting with senior al Qaeda leaders at Saddam's behest in 1994." -snip
ElKabong Go count em up... Below is just one. There are many more.
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdo...00310210934.asp
--Along Iraq's border with Syria, U.S. troops captured Farouk Hijazi, Hussein's former ambassador to Turkey and suspected liaison to al Qaeda. Under interrogation, Hijazi "admitted meeting with senior al Qaeda leaders at Saddam's behest in 1994." -snipSo how come Powell who I'm sure reads the national review, didn't back em up?? Could it be he was aware that this particular story had no legs?
..Sec. of State Colin Powell conceded Thursday that despite his assertions to the United Nations last year, he had no 'smoking gun' proof of a link between the government of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and terrorists of al-Qaeda.'I have not seen smoking-gun, concrete evidence about the connection,' Powell said." [NY Times, 1/9/04]
Maybe this gem from flightsuitboy recently referring to his SS scheme, explains your logical disconnect. Apparently you have presented your cheeks to accept the barrage. :D
"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."
I wonder if a subscription to the national review, comes with a years supply of petroleum jelly? Or if they give you a jar when invited to one of bushs' "town hall meetings"??
I took my residency at a major university hospital, my wife had some major medical problems so we stayed...WENT all through the draft "finger pointing" LONG ago . I registered, had a high lottery number and was NEVER called.
WHY do you live where you do??? We used to have a joke in our anatomy lab that the valves of Houston (named for an ENGLISH doctor) were given that title AFTER an anatomist had visited Texas. They represent a portion of the bowel. The fellows from there started that one. They laughed about where they called home. No big deal....people live all over the place now don't they?
why are you explaining all that? These guys are voting and supporting known DRAFT DODGERS. They have no beef with Draft Dodgers. Both guys, #1 & #2 are draft dodgers. Thier newest UN Nominee is a Draft Dodger. And... and this a BIG and. And! The top military Brass WILL NOT attend Colonel Hackworths Burial at Arlington National Cemetery today.
Here's all you need to know about Todays Military Establishment.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/05/30/to_the_end_colonel_a_man_of_the_troops/
To the end, colonel a man of the troops
Top brass not expected at funeral of war hero
Tomorrow, the US military will lay to rest Colonel David H. Hackworth -- among its most decorated heroes of all time -- at Arlington National Cemetery.
The top brass is not expected to attend.
http://www.hackworth.com/
To the very end, however, the military brass treated him with disdain for his biting criticism of insufficient training, equipment, and pay. There were deeper grievances as well, including his role in 1996 in exposing the fact that the chief of naval operations, Admiral Jeremy M. ''Mike" Boorda, wore combat ribbons that he did not earn. Boorda committed suicide an hour before a planned interview with Hackworth
see.. here's how it works. Jeremey MIKE Boorda can wear Phony medals...cuz he's a good ole boy. Don't matter. Matter of fact.. "mike" can even be Chief of Naval Operations with unearned medals. Thats ok.
On the other hand... John Kerry and Max Cleland are traitors! lol. u gotta love these two timing, back stabbing , double standard , sons of bitch's.
bad bad people.
lsbets
05-31-2005, 11:36 AM
Suff - did you read my question and follow up to 46 or did you just decided you needed to rant today? I asked a question, did not judge hmi or accuse him of anything.
I think that fine Mass air has affected your sanity a little, you seem like you're about to come unglued. Take a vacation, visit a "red" state - it will do you some good. :D
How came none of you SUN TZU wanna'bees, have said anything about the profoundly flawed "flypapper theory"??
So quick to size up the moral justifications for the neocon war, now how'bout all the armchair generals chiming in like the disturbed retired military minds on Faux Nooz?
Or is it time for Gilda Radners' Emily Litella to issue a statement from the oval office
....Never mind! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]Suff - did you read my question and follow up to 46 or did you just decided you needed to rant today? I asked a question, did not judge hmi or accuse him of anything.
I had'nt no. But I did now. I lived in San Antonio. Also I lived at Camp Bullis.... an Army base north of there. I'm not sure where as its been 25 years and I never got off the base. Combat Training. I lived in a tent. I only went to the "all ranks" club and got smashed on greyhounds. (vodka & grapefruit)
Texas is desert right? Lots of sand, trees under 30 feet, and shrubs. Lots and lots of shrubs. I call them shrubs, some may call them small trees. They don't have leaves in Texas do they? Mostly Shrubs. So no leaves. Sand, shrubs * cactus's? no? Am I wrong? Thats how I picture "most" of Texas.
I know you have some mountains? About 6 range's in the whole state. I like Mountains. When I hear George Bush talk about the Mountains of West Texas, I run to my reference books. Mountains? Texas is flat right? At least most of it is. But I know the Rio Grande has some clay hills that are shaped like mountains.
I've lived all over. Miami & San Diego I loved. But no Landscape! One thing you learn after driving around is that it all looks the same. All the trees are the same height and width, many of them spaced evenly apart! (community planning). Thats why I love New England. I can be on the ocean Floor of Boston Harbor at 9:00 am, and on top of Mt. Washington at Noon. Big Landscape here. Lots and lots of personality.
I'm an ocean guy. I have to be near the Ocean. I'll never leave it. I won;t say no amount of money..but it would take a lot.
You lived in Kuwait? You saw thier Ocean? beautiful I thought. It looks like a MIAMI Beach with the stone gettys, and nice restuarants..but nobody in the water....and there are no beachs. People do not take thier shirts off in the Middle East....and women can't go the beach when thier wrapped head to toe, 24/7.
I think that fine Mass air has affected your sanity a little, you seem like you're about to come unglued.
just decided you needed to rant today?
Basically. Yes. :p ;) :blush:
lsbets
05-31-2005, 04:41 PM
You lived in Kuwait? You saw thier Ocean? beautiful I thought. It looks like a MIAMI Beach with the stone gettys, and nice restuarants..but nobody in the water....and there are no beachs. People do not take thier shirts off in the Middle East....and women can't go the beach when thier wrapped head to toe, 24/7.
The first time I rolled into Baghdad, I couldn't help notice all of the palm trees. We were in one of the nicer neighborhoods with big houses and lots and lots of sand and palm trees. I told my driver Baghdad reminded me of Miami without the water and without the retired people.
There are some nice buildings in Kuwait, but I would guess the quality of construction sucks - they do everything half assed over there. The landscape is awful - all sand everywhere except for where they beautify the highway medians. The airport is nice though, probably the best place in the country.
We have everything here in Texas - from national forests (east texas is all pines) to beaches, desert, mountains, the Hill Country. I couldn't go back to the Northeast, I need my open spaces. I wish everyone else from the Northeast and the West Coast would stop moving here, because my nice home in the country is going to be in the city in about 10 years, and then I'll have to move again. ;)
JustRalph
05-31-2005, 04:54 PM
I had'nt no. But I did now. I lived in San Antonio. Also I lived at Camp Bullis.... an Army base north of there. I'm not sure where as its been 25 years and I never got off the base. Combat Training. I lived in a tent. I only went to the "all ranks" club and got smashed on greyhounds. (vodka & grapefruit)
Man! Now you did it! I just went through a flashback. I was able to pull myself off the floor to type this. 8 glorious weeks of having the Wannebe Army Ranger instructors beat the hell out of the Air Force guys who never in a million years thought they would end up in Combat School.
Not to mention I went thru in July and August..........can you say heat stroke!
Camp Bullis Info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bullis.htm
Bobby
05-31-2005, 05:09 PM
the Hill Country ;)
yes, there is a very good novel by a much unknown but very good author about the texas hill country. Home from the Hill by William Humphrey. Read it in college. Excellent.
!
Camp Bullis Info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bullis.htm
Yea.. I gave them hell there. LOL. Seriously. Its like prison... You gotta knock some one on the noggin or your shinging other peoples boots.
I picked a guy from Texas. Gave him the Boston two step. I don't where he is now..... Running a Girl scout troop, last I heard. :lol:
JustRalph
05-31-2005, 10:31 PM
Hey Suff, 200 pushups a day and toting an M-60 around in the heat.........
I don't know how the hell I did it. I would be lucky to knock out 20 pushups today and the M-60 would have to find its own ride................
youth is everything.................and like they say..........wasted on the young.......
ElKabong
06-01-2005, 02:55 AM
I had'nt no. But I did now. I lived in San Antonio. Also I lived at Camp Bullis.... an Army base north of there. I'm not sure where as its been 25 years and I never got off the base....
Texas is desert right?
I know you have some mountains? ......Texas is flat right? At least most of it is. But I know the Rio Grande has some clay hills that are shaped like mountains.
I wish you were in my flight in BT, Suff. Me and a guy from Mt Pleasant took our "east" buddies in BT for over $500 combined before those chumps ever got a check. The dudes from Penn and Mass in our flight (that hadn't seen more of Texas than what they saw on the bus ride from the airport) were making comments like yours. :lol: So we bet em $50 a piece that Texas highest elevation was greater thna any state east of the Mississppi river.
Easy money. Guadalupe Peak is 8975 ft.
Texas is desert? Not quite. As LSbets said, we have mountains, the Hill Country, beaches (the north and south Texas beaches are not the same), lush countryside in the Brazos Valley, desert plains in west Texas, and the Piney Woods in east Texas.... In my front yard I have 2 magnolia trees near, or over 30ft. Out back I have 2 mulberry trees 30 ft and there are 2 Pine trees next door at 40+ ft. I had 2 Pecan trees (35 ft'rs) cut down last yr.
Not bustin ya, but when you're stationed briefly at an AFB, you don't really "live" there in the town. I was stationed at Lowry for Tech school. For me to say "I lived there for 2-3 months" w/b inaccurate (yet at the time i thot that way). When you're that young and straight outta Basic Training you have 2 things on your mind--Women and getting drunk.....You're no more a part of that town or an authority on it as any weekend visitor. When I went back to Denver as a mature adult I realized my opinion of Denver (seedy, easy & cheap pieces of ass) was totally inaccurate.
One thing about Texas, particularly Austin, Dallas and east Texas, most out of staters that move here usually stay. Kind of unfortunate b/c we're getting very crowded now. I'm going back to Raytheon soon, that commute is 85 minutes at peak rush hour. Gonna have to sell the casa and move closer, all b/c that part of the metroplex is booming (mostly out of staters).
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