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Kreed
05-13-2005, 08:10 AM
UMMM ... i'm happy that Moodys didn't clobber Ford as junk. It would have
finished Ford off almost totally. I think we really need to revive our auto
sector --- right now. Also, do you think that NOW with Ford & GM hurting
WE finally might get a NATIONAL HEALTH PLAN moving along?
Enjoy Today ....

Tom
05-14-2005, 12:41 AM
Take a look at the REAL American car companies - Toyota, Nissan, Honda. Building fatories here, hiring American workers, farming out work to AMerican suppliers. Good for our economy.
Ford and GM have no one to blame but themselves for their problems. The transplants are florishing while the old boys are floundering.
Two major differneces between Ford/GM and the transplant - intellignet management and lack of unions. The UAW has basically killed Ford and GM.

ljb
05-14-2005, 03:10 AM
Take a look at the REAL American car companies - Toyota, Nissan, Honda. Building fatories here, hiring American workers, farming out work to AMerican suppliers. Good for our economy.
Ford and GM have no one to blame but themselves for their problems. The transplants are florishing while the old boys are floundering.
Two major differneces between Ford/GM and the transplant - intellignet management and lack of unions. The UAW has basically killed Ford and GM.
Before you get all patriotic about these companies you may consider the following:
Where do the profits end up? Do the employee's have health care? Who provides it? The UAW did not hold a gun to managements head, that is management must take some responsibility for agreeing to the contracts. The UAW got dental care for the workers, this resulted in a lot of rich dentists. Look at the big picture before making rash decisions.

JustRalph
05-14-2005, 12:52 PM
Before you get all patriotic about these companies you may consider the following:
Where do the profits end up? Do the employee's have health care? Who provides it? The UAW did not hold a gun to managements head, that is management must take some responsibility for agreeing to the contracts. The UAW got dental care for the workers, this resulted in a lot of rich dentists. Look at the big picture before making rash decisions.

LBJ. Honda has a large presence here in Ohio. Their employees have good health care and decent pension plan. I know a few people who worked there. In fact my sister worked there for a while.

During a strike about 5 years back in Dayton Ohio, the GM plant released the costs per employee. The total costs with healthcare and all other items was between 69-90 bucks an hour. They compared it to the same numbers at Honda. The Honda numbers were 22-30 an hour. I read the other day that 69% of GM's budget goes to health and pension plans for retiree's. Couple those items with making some of the worse cars (not to mention ugly) and you can see where these things would eventually catch up to them. Their most profitable cars are those that are made in conjuction with Toyota. The Pontiac Vibe is made with Toyota. Buy a Vibe and you get basically the same car as the Toyota Matrix. There are a couple of others like that. Yet GM is still crippled by the UAW. Toyota will be around after GM stops making cars.

ljb
05-14-2005, 01:27 PM
JR,
Interesting. Do you have any idea why toyota's health care costs are so much less then gm's? Do toyota employees recieve less benefits? Is the health care cost subsidized by the govt? Is this a bookeeping trick?
I read a book 10 - 15 years ago that talked about "the big three". My first thoughts were gm,ford and chrysler but the book talked about gm, toyota and volkswagen. As far as costs go, these corporations have methods of placing costs where they are most effective both in pr and for economic purposes. For example when gm offers 0 percent financing GMAC still gets their interest, Gm pays it out of the cost of the car this creates less or no profit on the auto. No profit to share with workers. But of course the gmac branch of gm makes a tidy profit. I had read the foreign mfgs. worked it out so all there profits were earned on parts manufactured in countries with the lowest tax rates. This creates a condition where little or no taxes are paid in higher tax countries say the U.S. Just more food for thought here.

Bobby
05-18-2005, 10:30 AM
The problem with American cars are that once you drive them off the lot, they depreciate about 40%.

There's no way ford or gm or chrysler can compete with Toyota quality or resale now or in the next 5 years. About a month ago or so there was some "INTERNET" speculation that Toyota might try to buy GM. That's hard to believe but nevertheless worth sharing.

Tom
05-18-2005, 10:29 PM
Ford and GM have been downgraded to junk status. News story in USA Today today, about automotive suppliers going bankrupt. Collins&Aikman filed chapter 11 this week. Other large suppliers have already done so and many more are teetering. The big scare is that GM will go chapter 11 - that will be a financial disastor - when they do that and thier suppliers fon't get piad, the ecomomy will be in serious jeopardy. The automotive assembly plants will go down within a day or two tops thanks to just in time shipping schedules. This would possible affect the transplant companies as well, as suppiers will fall like wooden soldiers. Very tenuous times right now.

ljb
05-19-2005, 08:05 AM
Tom,
I don't think GM will go bankrupt. If they do, they are done. Who would buy a car from a bankrupt company? Having said that, I also didn't think Bush was going to win in 2004. ;)

Bobby
05-19-2005, 10:17 AM
Ford and GM have no one to blame but themselves for their problems. The transplants are florishing while the old boys are floundering.


Exactly.

Wonder if the government is gonna have to BAIL them out too?

The only chevrolet I see on the road is the tahoe or the truck. I mean there's a couple of pontiacs and cadillacs, but NOTHING new from GM or Ford.

Tom
05-19-2005, 06:41 PM
The only way we are ever going to get strong, productive companies in this country is to let weak ones fail. GM going out of business would be far superior to bailing them out. The car market is still there - the vacumm from GM would be filled by new, lean, strong companies. Union free companies. Natural selection.

ljb
05-19-2005, 07:49 PM
The only way we are ever going to get strong, productive companies in this country is to let weak ones fail. GM going out of business would be far superior to bailing them out. The car market is still there - the vacumm from GM would be filled by new, lean, strong companies. Union free companies. Natural selection.
One step closer to a Mexican economy in the USA.

Kreed
05-19-2005, 10:48 PM
guys, I enjoy talking Economics & Politics & Social Policy ... i think all 3 are
joined. Do you feel this way too? I love business & money matters & politics.
I express my views strong but so do many of you. your ideas matter. It's
a USA thing & just like voting at a real voting place, what you say matters.
Win or Lose if you express yourself, you always win. I've really enjoyed my
times here. now my job is gonna keep me away. Hcap & EQ & SeC ... hey keep the flame alive; I love you posts amidst those mindless retorts. to all others,
if you haven't made heaps of money by now, how smart are you? JK.