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46zilzal
05-09-2005, 03:50 PM
Or should they call this "The Never Ending Story?"
Los Angeles Times

BAGHDAD — Eight U.S. troops were killed in action during a 48-hour period as insurgent violence raged in the Sunni Arab heartland of western and central Iraq, the U.S. military reported Sunday.

JustRalph
05-09-2005, 04:22 PM
and 100 insurgents were killed. This is a long way from Nam.........

46zilzal
05-09-2005, 04:45 PM
and 100 insurgents were killed. This is a long way from Nam.........

Sounds just like it....many many casulaties in South East Asia compared to the U.S. troops and accomplished what it appears it will accomplish here....NOT MUCH

Tom
05-09-2005, 11:38 PM
This nothing at all like Viet Nam. Not even close.
We lost more troops in single battles that we have lost in the entire occupation.
AND we have accomplished thousands of times more than we did in Viet Nam.
Comparing this to VN is ignorance.

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 11:27 AM
The Quagmire

from / Rolling Stone

The news from Iraq is bad and getting worse with each passing day. Iraqi insurgents are stepping up the pace of their attacks, unleashing eleven deadly bombings on April 29th alone. Many of the 150,000 Iraqi police and soldiers hastily trained by U.S. troops have deserted or joined the insurgents. The cost of the war now tops $192 billion, rising by $1 billion a week, and the corpses are piling up: Nearly 1,600 American soldiers and up to 100,000 Iraqi civilians are dead, as well as 177 allied troops and 229 private contractors. Other nations are abandoning the international coalition assembled to support the U.S.,

Lefty
05-10-2005, 12:20 PM
46, did you not read the report that we cght Bin Ladin's 3rd in command and he's(bin ladin)still on the run, and Zawquari's(pardon spelling)men are leaving him in droves and the so-called insurgency is losing steam and oh, yeah, did you hear about the democracies established in both Afghanistan and Iraq(never done before in M.E.) and how many attacks have we had here since 9-11 and yet all you can focus on is the bad news?

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 12:23 PM
No focus,,,Just hate to see this country embarassed yet again on some fool mission that means ZILCH.

Ah the good news like Rupert Murdoch's channel does

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 12:41 PM
, did you not read the report that attacks have we had here since 9-11 and yet all you can focus on is the bad news?

None of the Iraqis were there in NYC in 2001, hmmm and NO Afghans either, but they sure have had to be the "whipping boys" for it.

Lefty
05-10-2005, 07:35 PM
46, you miss the big picture. No afghans but where was Bin Ladin? In Afghanistan! Where was Zawquari(spelled incirerectly)In Iraq!
Afghan and Iraq whipping boys? We have 2 democracies started there. Man, you need some focus...

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 07:38 PM
.....and all those poor slobs living there held accountable for TWO individuals. What did any of them ever do to you and I?

That would be like tearing up Texas to go after the CEO of Enron

Lefty
05-10-2005, 07:50 PM
46, held accountable? what frigging planet are you on? There's 2 burgeoning Democracies where none existed. Do you not realize the import of that? Evidently not!

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 07:51 PM
4We have 2 democracies started there. Man, you need some focus...
and after all the GUNS leave what will happen to those "democracies?"

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 07:59 PM
46, held accountable? what frigging planet are you on? There's 2 burgeoning Democracies where none existed. Do you not realize the import of that? Evidently not!

and WOOPS I thought we wee going after thos MISSING weapons...now where have they gone to?

Kreed
05-10-2005, 08:04 PM
The key word is "BURGEONING" --- an interesting word, is it French?
BUT how long can you boil a sauce before it turns pure black? Yeah, right
now, on 5/10, I agree with you Lefty, but I do so because I lack any happy
alternatives, but IF this thing drags on & on, at what point do we just admit
we F'D up & then ask the American Public for guidance? I don't know either,
but Hcap + EQ + 46 are asking too.

Secretariat
05-10-2005, 08:07 PM
46, did you not read the report that we cght Bin Ladin's 3rd in command and he's(bin ladin)still on the run, and Zawquari's(pardon spelling)men are leaving him in droves and the so-called insurgency is losing steam and oh, yeah, did you hear about the democracies established in both Afghanistan and Iraq(never done before in M.E.) and how many attacks have we had here since 9-11 and yet all you can focus on is the bad news?

Lefty,

I wish you were right. Weve been hearing Zarqawi's on the run for the last year, and yet insurgent attacks continue to occur on a regular basis.


As to Bin Laden's he has now been at large longer than Hitler and Tojo in WW II.

And as to the capture of the "third' in command of al Qaeda, well, there seems to be some confusion about that (kind of makes it hard to get the truth - only certainty is you won't get it on FOX):

"THE capture of a supposed Al-Qaeda kingpin by Pakistani agents last week was hailed by President George W Bush as "a critical victory in the war on terror". According to European intelligence experts, however, Abu Faraj al-Libbi was not the terrorists' third in command, as claimed, but a middle-ranker derided by one source as "among the flotsam and jetsam" of the organisation.

Al-Libbi's arrest in Pakistan, announced last Wednesday, was described in the United States as "a major breakthrough" in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden.

Bush called him a "top general" and "a major facilitator and chief planner for the Al- Qaeda network". Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state, said he was "a very important figure". Yet the backslapping in Washington and Islamabad has astonished European terrorism experts, who point out that the Libyan was neither on the FBI's most wanted list, nor on that of the State Department "rewards for justice" programme.

Another Libyan is on the FBI list - Anas al-Liby, who is wanted over the 1998 East African embassy bombings - and some believe the Americans may have initially confused the two. When The Sunday Times contacted a senior FBI counter-terrorism official for information about the importance of the detained man, he sent material on al-Liby, the wrong man.

"Al-Libbi is just a 'middle-level' leader," said Jean-Charles Brisard, a French intelligence investigator and leading expert on terrorism finance. "Pakistan and US authorities have completely overestimated his role and importance. He was never more than a regional facilitator between Al-Qaeda and local Pakistani Islamic groups."

Lefty
05-10-2005, 08:33 PM
46, you guys when beaten in an argument just want to backtrack and mention the WMA's. It's getting old. They were there, they maybe ain't now, moot point. Terrorists are there and we're fighting them, kinda keeps em outta the states. The Democracy is a wonderful by-product. When we leave who knows what will happen. We gave em a start, the rest is up to them.

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 08:36 PM
It's getting old. They were there, they maybe ain't now, moot point. T
They WERE??? Boy now if that even had the SMALLIST bit of truth to it, it would make a great story, but alas......

Lefty
05-10-2005, 08:42 PM
46, Everyone including the Dems and most of the world blved He had WMD's. Bush acted on that belief. To not act on that belief and have another 9-11 and you would been yelling impeachment.
Yes, Saddam had em. What do yuh think he killed all those Kurds with, his b-b gun?

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 08:44 PM
BILLIONS wasted, many young people dead or maimed, almost 4 years after the fact and the guys responsible are still on the run so democratization is now what we are doing? Oh ....NOW I see

Lefty
05-10-2005, 09:01 PM
No, yuh don't see, 46 and it's plumb sad.

lsbets
05-10-2005, 09:34 PM
They WERE??? Boy now if that even had the SMALLIST bit of truth to it, it would make a great story, but alas......


Umm, ask the Kurds, or the Iranians. He had them, oh what's the point, its like a dog chasing its tail in here.

Lefty
05-10-2005, 10:08 PM
lsbets, that's the way it is. You beat these guys at one argument they go around the circle and pick up an old asrgument they've already lost and etc,etc, etc...

ElKabong
05-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Lefty,


As to Bin Laden's he has now been at large longer than Hitler and Tojo in WW II.

."

So what?... OBL and al queda have inflicted FAR LESS casualties than Germany or Japan did. OBL has done zilch on our shores after 9-11. You seem to dodge that fact.

Zil,

58,000 plus US troops died in Vietnam. Never once did LBJ or Nixon try to overrun the entire country. They played to tie. Now we're playing to win.

Major attack in western Iraq on insurgents today. Awesome. :ThmbUp:

Secretariat
05-10-2005, 10:55 PM
So what?... OBL and al queda have inflicted FAR LESS casualties than Germany or Japan did. OBL has done zilch on our shores after 9-11. You seem to dodge that fact.

Zil,

58,000 plus US troops died in Vietnam. Never once did LBJ or Nixon try to overrun the entire country. They played to tie. Now we're playing to win.

Major attack in western Iraq on insurgents today. Awesome. :ThmbUp:

Elk,

You said "So what?" Uh, Elk, Hitler did "no" real material damage to mainland US. Is that your criteria? If so, then OBL did much more damage to mainland America than Hitler! I'm not dodging anything. Hitler did no damage to "our shores". Is that the measure of your success? Japan never hit inside the US, and never struck America's shores after Pearl Harbor. Your analogy is inane.

Yeah, we're making real progress. We're playing to win you say. Well, Elk, we thought we were there to win in Vietnam too. At least we thought we were. We weren't playing for a tie, and your assinine comments insult the sacrifices of those 58,000 who gave their lives in Vietnam "trying to win."

My position on this has been simple from Day 1. We should never have gone into Iraq, It was a diversion from Afghansitan, and DID nothing towards getting at the people responsbile for the attack on 911. If we had not gone into Iraq we would probably have captured Bin Laden and Omar by now. Makes you wonder if the Bush admin is really interested in capturing Bin Laden. After all Bin Laden is Saudi, and we know how Bush likes Saudis.

Here's some more of our progress tonight.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050511/ts_nm/iraq_dc

ElKabong
05-10-2005, 11:12 PM
Sec,

Number 1...Yes, "So what" to OBL being holed up somewhere. He's ineffective. If you don't think he'd love to hit us here again, you're dreaming. Hasn't happened. By us fighting him and other insurgent ops/ orgs in Iraq, it has sapped his resources completely for attacks on our soil.

That last sentence is not up for debate to anyone who can see past his nose. Facts are facts. I remember you moonbats whining when Saddam was "on the loose and planning these attacks".....Guess what, chump. He was hiding in a hole with a can of RAID.

And, No, you completely misunderstood the remainder of my post. You usually don't have that problem (like lil grrl and ljb does). Here's my quote again -- OBL has done zilch on our shores after 9-11.

I directed the "on shore" damages to al queda/ OBL...There have been ZERO attacks since 9-11. You never give W or our Intel any credit for that. Doesn't surprise me in the least. It doesn't fit your anti Bush agenda.

As for Germany, they did sink a few of our ships that carried arms/ ammo and supplies to England.....but that wasn't my point.

Tom
05-10-2005, 11:15 PM
Need I remind you, Sec, that Hitler was in power committing crimes against humanity on MILLIONS of people for may years, starting in the 1930's. And the way we got to him was by MASSIVE fire bombing and total destruction of German cities and civilians. And may I remind you that the way we got the Hirohito was to drop TWO nukes on them and kill thousands and thousands.

Now, you whine like a baby about the MINIMAL collateral damage and casualties infllicted on the Iraqis yet compare our result to tactics you absoluelty comdem.
What a shallow little SOB you are, dude. SOB in caps. America sure as hell doesn't need bottom-feeding crap like you one our side. YOU and your kind are the terrorists best friends.
Younever ever miss chance to demean the USA. You are sickening.

Secretariat
05-10-2005, 11:23 PM
Need I remind you, Sec, that Hitler was in power committing crimes against humanity on MILLIONS of people for may years, starting in the 1930's. And the way we got to him was by MASSIVE fire bombing and total destruction of German cities and civilians. And may I remind you that the way we got the Hirohito was to drop TWO nukes on them and kill thousands and thousands.

Now, you whine like a baby about the MINIMAL collateral damage and casualties infllicted on the Iraqis yet compare our result to tactics you absoluelty comdem.
What a shallow little POS you are, dude. POS in caps. America sure as hell doesn't need bottom-feeding crap like you one our side. YOU and your kind are the terrorists best friends.
ESAD.

Again, Tom, you fail to see the assertion that Elk made, and have gone off the deep end.

You needn't lecture me on the fact that Hitler was a "Bad" man. That was not the discussion. The discussion was that Hitler DID not inflict damage on the mainland US as Bin Laden did.

Now, I only wish we had pursued Bin Laden with the fervor we did Hitler. We may very well have him by now. Instead, this is like WW II and Japan has just bombed Pearl Harbor, but we decided to invade Iraq instead of going after Tojo, because it was rumored there was a Japanese spy living in Iraq. We pulled off on our pursuit of Tojo.

Your insulting and distasteful tirade and unjustifiable outburst is childlike and not to the point at what Elkabong's point even was.

Lefty
05-10-2005, 11:31 PM
Bin Ladin ran, Hitler did not, he committed suicide.
Iraq a diversion? Zarquari(can't spell this friggin name)was there in Iraq training terrorists.

Tom
05-10-2005, 11:32 PM
Can't hear, ya dude I got "SOB-Away" turned on.
Can only read your words when someone else quotes you. Much like the Balck Plague, your words can only be spread by a carrier. :lol:

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 11:36 PM
What is a moonbat?

and for your spelling: Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's theological leader and bin Laden's probable successor. Al-Zawahiri is an Egyptian surgeon from an upper-class family. He joined the country's Islamist movement in the late 1970s.

46zilzal
05-10-2005, 11:44 PM
Exhaust almost all options, and just quit

Never once did LBJ or Nixon try to overrun the entire country. They played to tie. Now we're playing to win.

Now where have I heard that before?? Maybe some of legless freinds or some of the ones who never came back physically or mentally sound

ElKabong
05-10-2005, 11:48 PM
What is a moonbat?

.

Hope this helps...

http://www.barking-moonbat.com/archives/000275.html

....Moonbat. This is the human personification of the two terms described above. It is a human whose cerebral cortex has turned to silly putty causing him or her to mentally slide down the evolutionary ladder to the level of a winged rat who is influenced by the moon and wants to suck your blood. Also affectionately known as a "Democrat".

Suff
05-10-2005, 11:52 PM
The most apt way to describe the way its is similiar, is In that the finish line keeps moving.

Victory is redescribed frequently.



Serious war? Ok lets get serious. Are we playing to win? It WMD's, then it was Hussien, Then it was the Sunni's, then the Syrians, Then the Shiite's ...

The message was amd is? Iraq is a threat. It's two years, and it looks as if Iraq Does'nt want us there. So we have two Options. Leave or Fight A War.

Our Army is bieng used as a Police force. Maybe we pull back and Bomb A few more Nieghborhoods? I'm serious. War isn't "if you act right I will not bomb you"... War is. "I will bomb you until you act right". Its two years now. It's time to roll in or roll out. We see the palestinians were/are willing to keep it up to the last man. So Maybe we have to Nuke them?

I'm not foolling around.. This has been tried and failed. It was called "Vietnamazation". (Elkabong should know about it) We'd teach South Vietnam how to fight for themselves...and leave them to fight it out. Big Problem was the South Sympathist's that shared war plans with the enemey. 50% of American Casualties in Vietnam were Land Mines & Booby Traps. Many times we walked into Traps, that were set off our own plans. We are teaching Iraq's to fight, Arming them, and they're either GOING AWOL, or Joining the Insurgents. With our training and weaponary. It's not going to work..

I say we either stomp them, by setting them back another 200 years, or we figure a way out.

ElKabong
05-10-2005, 11:52 PM
Exhaust almost all options, and just quit



Now where have I heard that before?? Maybe some of legless freinds or some of the ones who never came back physically or mentally sound


You seem hung up on Vietnam. OK....Live in the past, hoss.

There are plenty of differences between Iraq and VN. The fact you refuse them is your problem, really. I think LS has it right. Argueing with most of you is a waste of time (dog chasing its tail).

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 12:07 AM
You seem hung up on Vietnam. OK....Live in the past, hoss.
.
No hung up, if anything, on the stupidty of WAR

ElKabong
05-11-2005, 12:08 AM
Agree w/ much of what you say, Suff.

perfect outcome...Democratize (is that a word?) Iraq. Prop em up. Let their freedom be a shining light for other countries (esp Saudi) to the point where people in the ME demand the freedoms that Iraq will have (once most everything is stabilized).

It won't be easy. The wars will go on in that region for years. Thing is, we have allowed countries in the ME to f-ck with us and never have to worry about retaliation. Until now.

If Carter retaliated in 1979, if Reagan retaliated in 1983, this mess would have an ending of one sort or another by now. That region has taken liberties on us (Americans). Some point in time, you have to put a foot in someone's ass to get a point across.

Right now there's a lot of fighting. Did you think it would be easy? Did you think we should just blow off 9-11, the USS Cole, the first WTC bombings? Mogadishu? Marine barrack bombing in Lebanon? Tehran embassy?

It has to stop. Aghan was a good start. Iraq? Hussein's continuing defiance was something he prided himself in----'Stand to the big bad USA and shoot em the finger'. F-ck him, and anyone else who funds international terrorism. Look at how fast Khadaffi backpedalled after we rolled thru Iraq in a matter of days. Used to shoot us the finger all the time and dealt in terrorism as well....Until GWB showed we were serious.

I know you won't agree. Cool by me. I'll take actions over worry any day. People can defend Hussein all they like, as PA said before 'Iraq and hussein was on the table long ago.'....

Suff
05-11-2005, 12:18 AM
or we figure a way out.


I don't say that Lightly. I realize Man and women have died to get us this far?? What does it say about them, if we don't accomplish the mission. What does it say to the Families of the Dead and Wounded?

They can't say they did to Remove Saddam He's long gone. So what exactly are we doing? Installing a Govt and Building a society?

Forgive me for being weak knee'd, but is this what we signed on for?

Lefty
05-11-2005, 12:34 AM
46, take your word for the spelling but on tv it's spelled with a q. Yeah, this guy, was in Iraq training terrorists. That's the point. He is on the run now just like bin ladin. We have disrupted this whole organization and have made them far less dangerous. That's what it's all about.
Yeah, war is stupid but it's even more stupid to ignore the enemy, let them get stronger and stronger, and then invade and cause even more death and destruction. There are times we must fight or die!

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 12:42 AM
There are times we must fight or die!

Sounds like YOU should join up!

Lefty
05-11-2005, 01:05 AM
I'm game. But alas, there's an age prob. But guess what, guys like you had their way, we'd be fighting in the streets right here, and effectively, we'd all be joined up!

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 10:50 AM
guys like you had their way, we'd be fighting in the streets right here, and effectively, we'd all be joined up!

guys like me? I just don't see the need to kill hunderds of innocent people. and why would THAT point of view bring conflct outside the LOCAL door?

The old "your'e eiither with me or aggin' me idea??? everything BLACK and WHITE ..or the rutabaga's famous word "Yur either with us or with the terrists!"

I choose no side.

lsbets
05-11-2005, 10:58 AM
guys like me? I just don't see the need to kill hunderds of innocent people. and why would THAT point of view bring conflct outside the LOCAL door?

The old "your'e eiither with me or aggin' me idea??? everything BLACK and WHITE ..or the rutabaga's famous word "Yur either with us or with the terrists!"

I choose no side.

I choose no side? If anyone wants to know what many on the right see wrong with the left today, it is that statemtent. I choose no side in the war on terrorism. You disagree with how it is being fought, that's fine, nothing wrong with that. You disagree with our policies, okay, no problem, that's your right. You choose no side???????? :faint:

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 11:05 AM
Folks decide when any diffrerence of ideology is germane,,,this one is not..Folks who want to "FIGHT IN THE STREETS" (as the new fear was expressed a few posts back) can...I will work in the hospital putting them back together, but that would be about the extent of interest in all of this silliness.

and ah YES the handy label of "LEFT" when one disagrees with the right. Day to day, I have NO set place on any political spectrum depending upon the point that is being discussed.

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 11:49 AM
People can defend Hussein all they like, as PA said before 'Iraq and hussein was on the table long ago.'....

who is DEFENDING Saddam?

Lefty
05-11-2005, 11:57 AM
46, things are more black and white than you know. "I choose no side" and you live in the U.S.A. is repugnant. Yep, you either are with us or against us. Seems like by trying to not choose a side you are against us. I suggest you rent the great movie Shenandoah starring Jimmy Stewart
Yes, if everyone was like you, we would be under another nations flag.

ElKabong
05-11-2005, 12:03 PM
Zil>> who is defending saddam??


In here, the little face painted grrrl does. She sees no problem with Hussein ordering the firing upon our aircraft and airmen during routine recon missions.

When you're in a cockpit doing your job in peacetime and get fired upon, there are no shades of gray. It's live or die. Those are the options. I doubt you'll "get it", but there's no "pause" button to stop the threat while you're being fired at.

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 12:03 PM
That was the civil war...another one I would have watched, the war that is, already saw the movie

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 12:07 PM
When you're in a cockpit doing your job in peacetime and get fired upon,
As in flying over SOMEONE ELSE'S air space? isn't that a bit of provocation no matter if is was Iraq or Ecuador?

JustRalph
05-11-2005, 12:21 PM
As in flying over SOMEONE ELSE'S air space? isn't that a bit of provocation no matter if is was Iraq or Ecuador?

not when it is under the Sanction of the precious United Nations and an agreed upon stipulation of the end of the first Gulf war..............

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 12:23 PM
Fat cats get an emotionally charged, testosterone-filled base of young surrogates to put their asses on the line while the "fat cats" sit back and reap all the rewards. The grunts get little shiny trinkets and ribbons and the chance to get "teary eyed" down the line when they can all get together on July 4th (wearing their little hats) and recount their GLORY days (when it really was their YOUTH they are really re-counting) while the "fat cats" get all the power and $$$ for very little risk. Sounds like a boat race, because it is JUST as fixed for the fixers.

That has been the way of war forever and it appears it never changes NO matter WHICH side it is

ElKabong
05-11-2005, 12:48 PM
Fat cats get an emotionally charged, testosterone-filled base of young surrogates to put their asses on the line while the "fat cats" sit back and reap all the rewards. The grunts get little shiny trinkets and ribbons and the chance to get "teary eyed" down the line when they can all get together on July 4th (wearing their little hats) and recount their GLORY days (when it really was their YOUTH they are really re-counting) while the "fat cats" get all the power and $$$ for very little risk. Sounds like a boat race, because it is JUST as fixed for the fixers.

That has been the way of war forever and it appears it never changes NO matter WHICH side it is


When you run out of legitimate points in arguement, you always fall back on this drivel. Instead of taking precious time from brain surgery or soldering components or whatever you do, why not just paste this nonsense when you've hit dead-end?

Lefty
05-11-2005, 01:12 PM
46, if you saw the movie i guess the point eluded you. Jimmy wanted to keep himself and his sons out of the civil war. He saw no need to pick sides. Ultimately, he was forced to pick sides. You live in this country 46, you better damn well be for us or you are surely against us. You can't sit in an ivory tower and opine that you are above it. We were attacked and if we don't fight terrorists on their turf then we surely will have to fight them here. Then, 46, you will need to pick a side.

hcap
05-11-2005, 03:45 PM
elBongbongIn here, the little face painted grrrl does. She sees no problem with Hussein ordering the firing upon our aircraft and airmen during routine recon missions.I said shooting at our guys was not justification for launching an invasion.

Your memory is kabong, kabong

In here, the little face painted grrrl does not believe your head is outa your ass long enough for one meaningful or insightful comment.

Equineer
05-11-2005, 05:02 PM
Hcap,

We have discussed the No-Fly Zone War before... pointing out Elkabong's ignorance about many aspects of this matter.

Here is part of an interesting news report filed by WP reporter Thomas Ricks in October 2000. It is strictly about the Northern Zone, but it certainly reveals hypocrisy concerning our much publicized intention of protecting Kurdish villages:

They Morph Into Warriors (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/2000/1025nfly.htm)

One reason the Air Force has been able to sustain the operation for a decade is that many personnel come from the National Guard and Reserves, which make up 20 percent to 40 percent of U.S. air crews. (There are 1,176 Americans assigned to the operation [in the Northern Zone], plus 162 British service members operating Jaguar reconnaissance aircraft. The Turkish military provides some ground staff.)

"We got Alabama in here now," said Col. Maurice H. Forsyth, commander of the air component of the operation. "Terre Haute's coming out in four days."

Surprisingly, there is general agreement that the Guard and Reserves have better pilots than the regular Air Force, which may be one reason the United States has not lost a pilot or plane despite flying about 250,000 sorties over Iraq since 1991.

Reservists sometimes are denigrated by active-duty troops as weekend warriors. But here, the Guard and Reserve pilots are the seasoned fighter jocks who lord it over the green, active-duty pilots. "The majority of them [on active duty] are what we call punks," Yosten said.

Watt, commander of the active-duty 522nd Fighter Squadron, said that of his 12 pilots now at Incirlik, nine have been flying the F-16 for less than two years. He uses the mission to help season these newcomers. "I tell them to check out the triple A [antiaircraft artillery], see the muzzle flashes and the airbursts," he said. "It's good for them to see it, get that bile in the back of your throat."

Contrast that with Col. Scott "Zapper" Mayes of the Alabama Air National Guard, who was dodging antiaircraft fire over Hanoi before most of the active-duty pilots were born. The pilots under his command have an average of 2,000 hours flying F-16s, compared with 100 for some of the active-duty pilots.

As commander of the fighter wing closest to the Atlanta airport, a major airline hub, Mayes has a waiting list to get into his unit. When commercial fliers come to Incirlik, he said, "They morph into warriors."

Still, some are dismayed by what they have seen. Horn said that on more than one occasion he and his comrades received a radio message that "there was a TSM inbound"--that is, a "Turkish Special Mission" heading into Iraq. Following standard orders, the Americans turned their planes around and flew back to Turkey.

"You'd see Turkish F-14s and F-16s inbound, loaded to the gills with munitions," he said. "Then they'd come out half an hour later with their munitions expended."

When the Americans flew back into Iraqi airspace, he recalled, they would see "burning villages, lots of smoke and fire."

ElKabong
05-11-2005, 05:28 PM
Equeer,

No one gives a shit about your long winded paste jobs from fiction spy novel authors, liberal hand puppet journalists, and night watchmen from the water dept.

Grrl with red stuff wiped all over her face,

Once again....Our airmen were fired upon over 50 times. Not once, not twice. At some point it's time to kick ass.And it happened.

Time for you to cry again and defend Iraq's actions and say we should have just allowed the killings to happen.....

hcap
05-11-2005, 06:03 PM
BongBong for some reason you edited your last post.
The original said:

Hcap,
Once again....Our airmen were fired upon over 50 times. Not once, not twice. At some point it's time to kick ass.

You then changed it to:

Grrl with red stuff wiped all over her face,
Once again....Our airmen were fired upon over 50 times. Not once, not twice. At some point it's time to kick ass.And it happened.

So what is it with you? And why does the image of a little girl with a peace sign bring out such bitterness?

Well kabong you have succeedded in wasting more of my time in correcting you again. The no-fly zones WERE NOT the reason we invaded. WMDs and links to Al Quada were the prime directives. (Sort of like star trek in reverse) :jump: :jump:
Even bush did not use such a lame ass excuse. He would have been laughed outa the congress. Yet you insist it a valid justification?

Fact-We flew over 250,000 sorties.
Fact-Lost no airmen. Or aircraft
Fact-Over 300 Iraqi civilian deaths that we know of.
Fact-The link Equineer posted shows there were more-probably Kurds.

Do the math. Kick ass time? Is that like MillerTime? Time to down a cold one and then down some live warm ones??

46zilzal
05-11-2005, 06:13 PM
Ultimately, he was forced to pick sides. . You can't sit in an ivory tower and opine that you are above it. We were attacked and if we don't fight terrorists on their turf then we surely will have to fight them here. Then, 46, you will need to pick a side.

When that happens I might consider it but I really am at a desk... I am at peace with the world or the Taoist's idea of "wu wei": or "non-doing."

Wu-wei refers to behavior that arises from a sense of oneself as connected to others and to one's environment. It is not motivated by a sense of separateness. It is action that is spontaneous and effortless. At the same time it is not to be considered inertia, laziness, or mere passivity. Rather, it is the experience of going with the grain or swimming with the current. Our contemporary expression, "going with the flow," is a direct expression of this fundamental Taoist principle, which in its most basic form refers to behavior occurring in response to the flow of the Tao.

Lefty
05-11-2005, 08:42 PM
46, you're just hopeless. If the U.S.A. is attacked and it doesn't offend you and you think you are above it all, and don't have to take sides then I give up. If everyone was like you then you wouldn't be free to say nutty things. I'd suggest you move to a socialist country but somehow people like you think they have the right to live here in peace because of blood shed by others and no one has the right to criticize them. I hope I never have to depend on you having my back.

Equineer
05-11-2005, 10:29 PM
Elkabong,

Air Force F15 pilot Mike Horn doesn't agree with your characterization of the No-Fly Zone War as innocent reconnaissance missions. He recalls aggressive mission tactics specifically designed to provoke fire from Iraqi air defense sites:

One sure-fire way to get the Iraqis to start shooting, Horn recalled, was to buzz a heavily defended area north of the city of Mosul. "F-16 guys would pop flares over Saddam Dam, which makes a big smoke trail, and the Iraqis would open up" said Horn... and from my previous post, Horn was also one of the pilots who blew the whistle on the "Turkish Special Missions" which destroyed Iraqi Kurdish villages, villages that we were supposedly protecting as UN peacekeepers.

Moreover, it has been alleged that those Turkish Special Missions were flown by CIA pilots, who probably left the Kurds wishing they had been attacked by Saddam's notoriously inept air force.

ElKabong
05-11-2005, 10:45 PM
Equeer,

I've never met Mike Horn. I have met a pilot who was fired upon by Saddam's military, a fmr co worker of mine. No doubt if my friend and Horn met they'd have some words about not so pleasant dreams, post 1998.

Tom
05-11-2005, 10:59 PM
Suff, we are doing exactly the same thing we did in Eurpope and Japan. We alwys stay and rebuild and help to stabilize the regions. The goaline is not moving. We were involved in Germany far longer than we have been in Iraq. Remember the Belin air lift?

PaceAdvantage
05-12-2005, 09:44 PM
Let's clear something up, right here, right now.

"Vietnam all over again" is one of the more ignorant statements made on off-topic. I'm by no means an expert on Vietnam, but it is a conflict that has always fascinated me, and I in fact took a college course on Vietnam....but I digress.

This thread would have been MUCH MORE accurately titled had it said "Soviet occupation of Afghanistan all over again," but even that needs about 8 more years to develop before it can be verified.

But, "Vietnam all over again" is just so silly and plain wrong at this point, that it really doesn't even deseve a response, but I thought I'd throw this out there, just to clear up another one of 46zilzal's ignorant statements.

46zilzal
05-12-2005, 10:10 PM
start someting with no END in sight is the correlation

nick777
05-12-2005, 10:30 PM
Let's clear something up, right here, right now.

"Vietnam all over again" is one of the more ignorant statements made on off-topic. I'm by no means an expert on Vietnam, but it is a conflict that has always fascinated me, and I in fact took a college course on Vietnam....but I digress.

This thread would have been MUCH MORE accurately titled had it said "Soviet occupation of Afghanistan all over again," but even that needs about 8 more years to develop before it can be verified.

But, "Vietnam all over again" is just so silly and plain wrong at this point, that it really doesn't even deseve a response, but I thought I'd throw this out there, just to clear up another one of 46zilzal's ignorant statements.


Then you should know that it was the Americans who supported and supplied the Afganhis with weapons to defend themselves against the Russians.

America's stance was pro Afganhi in this one, yet a few short years later, they do the same thing, and seek the support of the Russians, after stabbing them in the back.

How ridiculous

You choose the path on which you walk on

Maybe the Japs will occupy Korea and hand it over to the U.S.
You know, because the U.S. desreves it

Go run your software and pick a winner, looks like the U.S. has the early lead, but the pace is hot, will they last.

Past performance indicates they have no decisions against countries that are more than 10x smaller than them, not too impressive

I will look for a winner elsewhere, and take the odds

Tom
05-12-2005, 11:12 PM
start someting with no END in sight is the correlation


You mean like WWII?
There was no exit strategy...and YOU said that one was the last justifiable war.

Tom
05-12-2005, 11:18 PM
Then you should know that it was the Americans who supported and supplied the Afganhis with weapons to defend themselves against the Russians.

America's stance was pro Afganhi in this one, yet a few short years later, they do the same thing, and seek the support of the Russians, after stabbing them in the back.

How ridiculous

You choose the path on which you walk on

Maybe the Japs will occupy Korea and hand it over to the U.S.
You know, because the U.S. desreves it

Go run your software and pick a winner, looks like the U.S. has the early lead, but the pace is hot, will they last.

Past performance indicates they have no decisions against countries that are more than 10x smaller than them, not too impressive

I will look for a winner elsewhere, and take the odds

When we supported the Afghanis against the Russina, it was to not only help them drive out the communists, but to help us destroy communism - and it worked. Russia was drained and weaken by that war (which they lost in 10 years, compared to to our relatively cake-walk thourgh in 2001-2).

When we invaded, we drove out the taliban and Bin Laden, who were not the terror organization back then. And the Russians we opposed then and the Russians we counted on for help were two totally different countries.

And please explain that crack about the US deserving it....

nick777
05-12-2005, 11:50 PM
When we supported the Afghanis against the Russina, it was to not only help them drive out the communists, but to help us destroy communism - and it worked. Russia was drained and weaken by that war (which they lost in 10 years, compared to to our relatively cake-walk thourgh in 2001-2).

When we invaded, we drove out the taliban and Bin Laden, who were not the terror organization back then. And the Russians we opposed then and the Russians we counted on for help were two totally different countries.

And please explain that crack about the US deserving it....


So you say

The real world and your world are very much different

Stick your head out of your cave and see how the rest of the world views you.

You might come back headless

PaceAdvantage
05-13-2005, 12:50 AM
Uh oh, here we go again. Another non-American taking pot shots.

I won't even touch this one with a ten foot pole....

And I hope the rest of the world hates us enough to STOP SUCKING AT OUR DAMN TEET WHENEVER THEIR ASSES GET INTO TROUBLE!!!

Oh wait, that will never happen. They still need America, and America is too damn nice to say no to the ingrates.

Lefty
05-13-2005, 01:19 AM
I expect the overseas ingrates but I get really amazed at the hate right here in the USA for this country. I'll never understand it.

46zilzal
05-13-2005, 01:24 AM
Hate??? simple questioning

PaceAdvantage
05-13-2005, 01:25 AM
Let me make a prediction....there will be a couple of posts about how China and other foreign nations are propping up our teetering economy....making US need them, more then they need us....I can't wait for those posts....

How about we get back to the subject at hand --> "Vietnam all over again," and how truly laughable a thread title this really is....

46zilzal
05-13-2005, 01:32 AM
How about we get back to the subject at hand --> "Vietnam all over again," and how truly laughable a thread title this really is....

Yup, Learning about it in a college course is ONE way to understand it all, not the only one

nick777
05-13-2005, 01:59 AM
Nobody needs the Americans, the truth is, they are an unwanted presence wherever they go.

Just like every other powerful nation throughout history, their time will pass, and what will they be remembered for, Reality Tv shows.

Lefty
05-13-2005, 02:17 AM
nick, you say they instead of us or our. I guess you are not an american?
Truth is, whenever there's a tragedy anywhere we are there with help and money. Without America there would not be freedom anyplace in the world.
46, you do not think this guy's posts reek of hate?

nick777
05-13-2005, 02:35 AM
nick, you say they instead of us or our. I guess you are not an american?
Truth is, whenever there's a tragedy anywhere we are there with help and money. Without America there would not be freedom anyplace in the world.
46, you do not think this guy's posts reek of hate?


When you take the whole world, put em in one country, you refer to people as they, there is nothing our about them

PaceAdvantage
05-13-2005, 03:14 AM
Yup, Learning about it in a college course is ONE way to understand it all, not the only one

Not the only place my friend....just one cog in my wheel. But, ridicule it all you want, and ridicule the professor who fought in Vietnam as well....

Suff
05-13-2005, 10:00 AM
I expect the overseas ingrates.

No you don't. You love unamericans telling you about America. Hence your love for Fox. They're owned by an unamerican "multi-nationalist".

46zilzal
05-13-2005, 10:56 AM
Not the only place my friend....just one cog in my wheel. But, ridicule it all you want, and ridicule the professor who fought in Vietnam as well....
continually amazed at your ability to ADD information in between very simple language. Passively learning something is not being there (those times) when it happened.

46zilzal
05-13-2005, 10:58 AM
46, you do not think this guy's posts reek of hate?
fairly close

Lefty
05-13-2005, 12:19 PM
nick, do you think you can write a clear, concise coherent post and just ell me clearly, are you an american? And why do you hate America?

Lefty
05-13-2005, 12:21 PM
suff, the fact that you libs are so afraid of Fox, i.e. fair and balanced shows me how weak and vulnerable the liberal message is. It can't withstand fair and balanced let alone the conservative view.
LOL

46zilzal
05-13-2005, 12:33 PM
suff, the fact that you libs are so afraid of Fox,

dont think any rational person is AFRAID of Fox. The little I have seen of it is uproariously FUNNY

nick777
05-13-2005, 04:35 PM
nick, do you think you can write a clear, concise coherent post and just ell me clearly, are you an american? And why do you hate America?


Just call me WHACKHAPPY JACK

Suff
05-13-2005, 05:15 PM
suff, the fact that you libs are so afraid of Fox, i.e. fair and balanced shows me how weak and vulnerable the liberal message is. It can't withstand fair and balanced let alone the conservative view.
LOL

Lefty.. You are going waaaaaay out of your way to Find out wether Nick is an American or not. Because if you find he is not... He SUCKS! Not because he disgrees with you.. But because being a "non-american" you think his opinion is meaningless.

Yet you swear by Fox news. It's a non-american owned firm.

I'm not afraid of Fox. Fox's weapons don't work on me...and I'm the only one I'm responisble for. I don't give "any" of them my mind. My Mind is my own. I don't take anything they say as 100% true. Not Fox, Not CNN, not PBS, Not MSNBC, Not BLOOMBERG, none of them. They might dictate what the Nation is talking about. But they don't dictate what I talk about, how I think about things, nor where I stand.

Lefty... I understand your frustrations. I do. I appreciatte your situation. I always say... Power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts.
Democrats were in Power for a long time. The're payin for thier Sins....rightfully so.

But I'll tell you one more time whats Happening..

They'll tell you if you change the Bankruptcy Laws that Credit card firms can lower thier rate because BAD DEBT is lower...and thats good for everybody. But it never comes.

They Tell you if You give up Overtime pay , and the Company can make more profit, it will be better for everybody down the road. But down the road never comes.

They tell you if we let them LIMIT what can sue them for, and how much we can get, that prices will go lower, and care will improve. Price's will never go lower, and the better care will go to less people.

They Tell yu if we let them operate overseas it will be better for our Economy "down the Road". But when that Fork in the road comes...It'll be something else.


Its is a MYTH that Big Business will give you anything, they'd give you NOTHING if they could. They'll make a slave out of you....and think nothing of. They'll use a Bible to do it. That's how sick and twisted these guys are.


The United Pilots..perfect example. They told the United workers 20 years ago..

You work for us...we'll give you this. But they won't give it to you know "they hold it".... So you go along. Then they come to you and say "will you do more work for less?" They literally ask you to "Give back" what they gave you...and still hold what they owe you. So you do.. after all, you care, its your Job.... Then when its all said and done.. what do they... They take what they're holding, The take what the asked you back for,,,and the only think you have left is your pension.. and they take that..

You see!! Thats what I'm telling you about these guys. They'll take the last Crumb! They're suns-abitch's. The worst kinda human beings walking the earth.

You never , ever, under any circumstances get more from them! You won't even get whats yours to begin with. It's a Lie!

Lefty
05-13-2005, 08:23 PM
46zilch, i'm afraid their constant cries belittling Fox and your answer betrays the libs' fear of fair and balanced.

suff, i'm afraid nick sucks either way.

nick777
05-13-2005, 08:36 PM
46zilch, i'm afraid their constant cries belittling Fox and your answer betrays the libs' fear of fair and balanced.

suff, i'm afraid nick sucks either way.


you guys sound like a bunch of damn politicians

no wonder you can't win a war, you can't even agree with eachother

my fav part of the iraqi war was when the "American" chucked a grenade at his own platoon, ABSOLUTELY APPROPRIATE

hey Lefty, you need a tissue buddy ?

ljb
05-13-2005, 08:41 PM
Suff,
You made many good factual points in your post. It is a shame that the large corporations have the power to infuence (dupe) many unwary souls in this great country of ours. :(
Some were influenced by a $300 tax cut, some were influenced by a promise of a constitutional amendment banning gay marriages and some were influenced by false evidence leading us into this quagmire in Iraq. :(

Tom
05-14-2005, 12:21 AM
Nobody needs the Americans, the truth is, they are an unwanted presence wherever they go.

Just like every other powerful nation throughout history, their time will pass, and what will they be remembered for, Reality Tv shows.


Much like your sorry ass here on this borad, you third-world little POS. You like the idea of throwing a gernade into a group of soliers? Boy, I hope I run into YOU in the real world you scum sucking jerk. Better yet, I hope you are under the next B52 we send over to take out the trash.

How old are you, 9, 10??? You write at a second grade level, so I am not clear on your age. I suppose you could be in your 20's or 30's and just be retarded.
Or yet another incarnation of Butt Scratch.

Tom
05-14-2005, 12:23 AM
I think this jerk's latest post qualify him for banishment - at least.

nick777
05-14-2005, 12:25 AM
Much like your sorry ass here on this borad, you third-world little POS. you ike the idea of throwing a gernade into a group of soliers? Boy, I hope I run into YOU in the real world you scum sucking jerk. Better yet, I hope you are under the next B52 we send over to take out the trash.


Ditto buddy

Yeah i do like that, Americans throwing grenades at other Americans, what a winning formula