Sweet Catomine

[DJofSD]

The you-know-what hit the fan this morning. Tim Sullivan of the San Diego Union Tribune leveled charges that critical information about Sweet Catomine was delibrately withheld from the public. Information that likely would have put the public off the horse.

No link at present exists at the web site. If it becomes available later I'll update the thread.

DJofSD

[bdhsheets]

What sort of info is he talking about? That Canani wasn't administering shakes yesterday? LOL :D :D :D

[so.cal.fan]

I just heard that SC had bled and was sick last week....they took her up to Santa Barbara for treatment....but decided to run her anyway, when Marty Wygod was asked why he didn't disclose this to the public......he replied"no one asked"
I don't know if this is true or not.....however, I was told this by a pretty reliable source at Santa Anita......if it's true......... :(

[cj]

Here is some of it:

After the race, owner Marty Wygod came to the press box and said that Sweet Catomine had bled in her final workout on Sunday and was sent to a vet clinic for the next 48 hours earlier this week. Wygod said he had contemplated scratching Sweet Catomine before the race. None of this was disclose by Wygod or trainer Julio Canani when asked specifically about the filly's condition on Wednesday.

[Misteranthropic]

More suspect than lack of disclosure about SC's condition is the amount of money that filly took in a field of colts. Kinda like girls playing basketball against the boys.

[cj]

More suspect than lack of disclosure about SC's condition is the amount of money that filly took in a field of colts. Kinda like girls playing basketball against the boys.

Let's not get carried away now, its not like fillies have never beaten colts. I have no doubt that SC would have won the Juvenile last year if she was in that race. But yesterday, I didn't really think she had a shot.

[Misteranthropic]

I was kidding around a little actually. I figured her for fourth yesterday, and just missed with the General.

The nice thing about a huge underlay is the great overlays left on the table.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Even worse, Wilko's connections did not disclose they would box SC in.
Thought eveyone on this thread knew over 90% of all runners bleed. Many through lasix. It is part of thoroughbred physiology. Horses that run farther than they are supposed to in nature have physical reactions.
Major media idiots that hardly ever cover horses and would not know which end of a horse to interview I expect that from. It is racing's fault they do not properly educate the jounalists and public that some trainers take precautions.
I did not notice the results charts saying SC was "eased".
I wonder how many who bet the horse are mad Canani did not use a milkshake on her?

[McSchell_Racing]

I just heard that SC had bled and was sick last week....they took her up to Santa Barbara for treatment....but decided to run her anyway, when Marty Wygod was asked why he didn't disclose this to the public......he replied"no one asked"
I don't know if this is true or not.....however, I was told this by a pretty reliable source at Santa Anita......if it's true......... :(

This is just pure GREED on the owners part.
Here you have a nice filly and they are indangering her career by running her when she isnt right. I would also bet you that they have now ruined this filly.
ALL in the name of MONEY!

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Here you have a nice filly and they are indangering her career by running her when she isnt right".
Maybe as a horseman you know more about blanket statements concerning bleeding by your statement than I. But I certainly do not have access to the test results or know what went on at the facility.
I assumed they do not want to kill a million dollar horse and the track vet is supposed to be told if a condition exists that would keep her from the race.
I am more concerned about SA and other Magna tracks hurting horse by being too hard and fast to be safe. At least they are now montitoring SA track speed.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Did anyone stop to consider that this could be very minor bleeding and the treatment, clearasnce to run by Magna, and post-race disclosure could have been to get bigger odds in the derby? My guess is she will run at a big overlay!

[DJofSD]

OK. Here's the link to the story. You decide.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/sullivan/index.html

DJofSD

[DJofSD]

It is part of thoroughbred physiology. Horses that run farther than they are supposed to in nature have physical reactions.

B.S.

Go watch what even low level three day event horses do.

Don't tell me it's too far for them to run. Horse pucky.

DJofSD

[chrisg]

...Wilko's connections did not disclose they would box SC in...

I don't think that "boxing" her in excuse holds up.

[McSchell_Racing]

"Here you have a nice filly and they are indangering her career by running her when she isnt right".
Maybe as a horseman you know more about blanket statements concerning bleeding by your statement than I. But I certainly do not have access to the test results or know what went on at the facility.
I assumed they do not want to kill a million dollar horse and the track vet is supposed to be told if a condition exists that would keep her from the race.
I am more concerned about SA and other Magna tracks hurting horse by being too hard and fast to be safe. At least they are now montitoring SA track speed.

Stress makes a horse bleed, When this filly bled in her workout, OBVIOUSLY something was wrong BEFORE she worked, She may have issues that none of us know about.This may have been know to the trainer beforehand and never disclosed to the unsuspecting owner (MANY Trainers are afraid to tell their owners something is wrong).As for Magna tracks being too hard???...Hasnt California tracks always been speed favoring?.When this filly bled after her workout, She shouldnt have even been considered for that race. Takes at least 2 weeks for her to heal inside, It is a shame to see this when you have a nice horse.Mark my words, This bleeding thing will eventually cheapen her or send her on to a early trip to the breeding shed.

[McSchell_Racing]

From Tim Sullivan's column in the San Diego Union Tribune.


ARCADIA – Caveat sucker.

Bet on the horses, and you deserve to get snookered. You deserve to be
flim-flammed. You deserve to go broke.

The sport of kings is ruled for the most part by anarchy. Its currency is
inside information. Its regulation, too often, consists of winks and nods.
If it weren't already fading toward the fringes of the sports world, it
would fairly scream for congressional scrutiny.
It is an outrage, or at least it was yesterday.

Sweet Catomine, the favored filly in the Santa Anita Derby, ran a listless
fifth in a race she probably shouldn't have run at all. She had bled in her
last workout and spent two days being treated at Alamo Pintado, the equine
medical center near Santa Barbara. When she returned to the track, she was
in heat. She was, owner Marty Wygod acknowledged yesterday, a 50-50
possibility of being scratched.

Yet the general public knew none of this. The general public had been led to
believe Sweet Catomine was prepping for the Kentucky Derby with no known
problems. The general public bet more than $700,000 on Sweet Catomine to
win, place or show yesterday – plus untold thousands in more exotic wagering
– without the benefit of some pretty basic information.
Does anyone else have a problem with this?

What Wall Street condemns as insider trading, though, the equine industry
accepts as standard operating procedure. Wygod, of Rancho Santa Fe, warned
Santa Anita officials on Wednesday that his horse's status was shaky, but
neither the owner nor the track nor trainer Julio Canani chose to clue in
the customers.

"No one asked me," Wygod said. "If you listen to my NBC interview, I said
she's not quite right. She's not as good as she was in her earlier races.
She's got a few problems. But nobody asked me what those problems were, so I
figured I'd leave it just that way. I was very clear, if you listen to the
interview carefully, that she had a few problems . . .

"You can go through the tape, I was pretty explicit. If someone would ask me
what are the problems, I would have told them."

Maybe so, but because the NBC interview did not air until yesterday
afternoon, few of the 38,014 at the track were able to hear it. It's almost
inconceivable that Sweet Catomine would have left the starting gate as an
even-money favorite had bettors been better informed. It's easy to imagine
that some of those privy to the horse's condition were in a position to
profit from that knowledge.
Even if no one acted on an unethical impulse in this case, it is
unconscionable that such an opportunity could exist. How can an industry
entirely predicated on gambling afford even the appearance of impropriety?
How can it continue to treat its patrons as people who deserve to be duped?
How long before the National Thoroughbred Racing Association requires at
least the same minimum disclosure the National Football League provides
about injuries?

Sweet Catomine's connections had every chance to come forward in a timely
fashion. Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden said yesterday that Wygod had
shared some of the details of the filly's condition with him on Friday – but
only after an assurance that Layden's story would not be published until
after the race was run.

Why? At the least, letting the Catomine out of the bag could have hurt Santa
Anita's gate (and NBC's ratings). The track's prerace advertising was built
around the champion filly – "Will she beat the boys?" – as was the network's
coverage of the event.

Still, if knowledge of Sweet Catomine's uncertain status placed the track
and the network in a position of conflicting interests, it did not absolve
them of their responsibility to those inclined to watch and/or wager.

Sure, this sort of thing probably happens every day at every racetrack in
America. But when it happens in a major race with a high-profile horse, it
can only erode confidence in the entire sport. If racing's stewards do not
see a danger here, they must have borrowed some blinders from the tack room.

"How close the horse was to being scratched, I really don't know," said Ron
Charles, executive director of MEC/California, which owns Santa Anita.
"Clearly, (Wygod) did mention that. I just assured him to do what was right
for the filly."

And what about what's right for the public?

"I believe the decision would clearly rest with Julio and Marty," Charles
said. "They're on top of it. Julio's a terrific horseman and he keeps Marty,
I'm sure, informed. I think the decision was theirs . . .

"The way it was said to me, it seemed as if I had the feeling they were
going to race, but there was the possibility that they were going to go
right up till today before they made their final decision. I was comfortable
with that."

That makes one of us.

So.Cal.Fan
Here is more on her taken from another form that I visit.This proves my thinkig on earlier posts

[toetoe]

I agree, but I'm sure Ken was kidding. As to S.C. being bet to EVEN FRIGGING MONEY, her backers almost ... ALMOST deserved the shabby treatment they got. Even money? I'm still scratching my head over it. Against her mediocre female classmates, she never showed a devastating burst, just a steady assertion of her superiority. But it was against MEDIOCRE FILLIES! These were mediocre colts, and that makes a huge difference.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Connections informed the track. NBC set the time to air the interview. Magna owns the track. NTRA should be requiring notice to the public of any corrected problems.
Too bad it wasn't Del Mar. Then he could blame Bing Crosby's decendents for him being a sore loser!
How many of you are going to contact the above people about this anarchy?
I demand Cannani send a detailed listing of every activity, maintenance, treatment, and and food left in the bucket of every horse Cannani trains to Tom Sullivan's email address every day!

[Suff]

The you-know-what hit the fan this morning. Tim Sullivan of the San Diego Union Tribune leveled charges that critical information about Sweet Catomine was delibrately withheld from the public.

DJofSD
Board to investigate horse's health status
The revelation that Sweet Catomine had physical problems in the week before her Santa Anita Derby defeat has prompted an investigation by the California Horse Racing Board, the state agency announced Sunday.http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~29583~2809920,00.html

[rrbauer]

Wager details for ticket number 37805427-1:

Wager Type: Win
Wager Status: Win
Base Amount: 10.00 (USD)
Risk / To Win Amount: 10.00 / (USD)
Date Accepted: 9-April-2005
Time Accepted: 2:32:03 PM (Pacific)
Amount Paid: 311.00

Track Race: Santa Anita; Race #6
Race Date: 9-April-2005
Runners: 9.Buzzards Bay

I didn't have much confidence in anything in the SA Derby; but, when I saw
the price on BB and had heard that he had been chowing down on Dairy Queen products the night before, I had to take a little shot. :D

[chickenhead]

"Once again I've been taught the lesson, if you see a Mullins horse that doesn't belong, bet it HEAVILY. I would be retired by now if I followed that advice."

I made this post May last year......looks like I am still learning :mad: :blush: :mad:

[OTM Al]

Like I said in another post, I would swear that they posted the off odds on the unofficial results screen at 40-1 and yet it only paid around 30-1 by the time they made it official. Maybe I'd had a few too many beers and wasn't seeing right and usually I'm one of the last to cry fire, but this one kind of struk me odd. And if all this stuff they are now saying about SC are true, bad hoof, bleeding, and in season, she ran a pretty darn good race.

[BillW]

Like I said in another post, I would swear that they posted the off odds on the unofficial results screen at 40-1 and yet it only paid around 30-1 by the time they made it official. Maybe I'd had a few too many beers and wasn't seeing right and usually I'm one of the last to cry fire, but this one kind of struk me odd. And if all this stuff they are now saying about SC are true, bad hoof, bleeding, and in season, she ran a pretty darn good race.

There's probably is an element of the "They're out to get me" conspiracy theorist crowd in the report of the problems.

A shift of 40-1 to 30-1 is a shift of 2% to 2.6% of the pool which would represent (wild guess - based on $1 Million in win pool) $6000 coming in late. At these high odds small pctgs. can mean big move in odds.

And yes, for a candidate for life support, she didn't run a bad race :) .


Bill

[OTM Al]

$1 mil in the win pool is probably pretty close to what it was, maybe a little under (Equibase shows just shy of $2 mil total WPS). Knew at those long odds it didn't take a ton of money to make that move, but thought it would be a little more than that...what I get for not doing a quick calculation. Not ashamed to say I bet her small keyed on top of a tri. If she was right I still think she is a better horse than the lot that ran in that race. What she's beat lately have been fairly mediocre to agree with toetoe, but she beat the best just a few months ago at Lone Star and frankly, that was a fairly mediocre crew she was going against saturday. Not touching any of them that make it to the Derby to be sure. Oh well, won't have to think about her for a while. Hopefully she hasn't been damaged by the effort.

So in the end, crying fire was probably not right, but with Mullin's rap of late it is something that unfortunately comes to mind too easily.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"This obviously a concern," said Ingrid Fermin, the CHRB's executive director, who said she learned of the situation from Sunday-morning newspaper columns. :lol:
No wonder racing is losing total bets: Not only do they not know how to put out their own good press, but they buy into the BS trash Sullivan puts out instead of waiting for SC's post race scope.
And on PA here comes the wives' tales of the doping and odds-fixing of the winner.
I trust McSchell's opinion of care generally given to bleeders, and I know that racing is not 100% foolproof in spite of the many layers of policing in effect, but I prefer to deal with facts and accurate information and not guesswork.
That is why I maintain a +ROI and do a lot of research in regard to racing.
I do not know why then racing community including some of those on this forum are so upset since Sullivan admitted the track officials were told about the situation.
As I have stated earlier on threads, instead of automatically dumping on the trainers, trainers are the most stable forces in racing by workload, responsibility, and longevity and shopuld be promoted.
Trainers have to work closely with all racing entities including authorities' rules, their employees, owners, jockeys and track officials. I understand they have to keep detailed track of daily activities of sometimes hundreds of horses at various tracks and training facilities. They are held responsible for any little mistake.
There are those on this forum who could not wait to call McSchell a liar about his experiences instead of learning from his knowledge.
Maybe it is because of activities in many decades past or maybe because a lot of (legit) strategy goes into trainers' work, but I would rather give the immediate benefit of the doubt to most trainers and wait for proof of wrongdoing or aggregious errors.

[BillW]

So in the end, crying fire was probably not right, but with Mullin's rap of late it is something that unfortunately comes to mind too easily.

I'd be willing to bet that a chunk of that late money was just taking a flyer that the CHRB did not have Mullins under control :D . Dammit,why didn't I think of that :bang:.

Bill

[chickenhead]

Or, it could have been from the CHRB Board Member who owns Buzzards Bay....maybe he KNEW they didn't have him under control?

[McSchell_Racing]

"This obviously a concern," said Ingrid Fermin, the CHRB's executive director, who said she learned of the situation from Sunday-morning newspaper columns. :lol:
No wonder racing is losing total bets: Not only do they not know how to put out their own good press, but they buy into the BS trash Sullivan puts out instead of waiting for SC's post race scope.
And on PA here comes the wives' tales of the doping and odds-fixing of the winner.
I trust McSchell's opinion of care generally given to bleeders, and I know that racing is not 100% foolproof in spite of the many layers of policing in effect, but I prefer to deal with facts and accurate information and not guesswork.
That is why I maintain a +ROI and do a lot of research in regard to racing.
I do not know why then racing community including some of those on this forum are so upset since Sullivan admitted the track officials were told about the situation.
As I have stated earlier on threads, instead of automatically dumping on the trainers, trainers are the most stable forces in racing by workload, responsibility, and longevity and shopuld be promoted.
Trainers have to work closely with all racing entities including authorities' rules, their employees, owners, jockeys and track officials. I understand they have to keep detailed track of daily activities of sometimes hundreds of horses at various tracks and training facilities. They are held responsible for any little mistake.
There are those on this forum who could not wait to call McSchell a liar about his experiences instead of learning from his knowledge.
Maybe it is because of activities in many decades past or maybe because a lot of (legit) strategy goes into trainers' work, but I would rather give the immediate benefit of the doubt to most trainers and wait for proof of wrongdoing or aggregious errors.

When something goes wrong whether it be a work or race, The trainer is the guy who MUST come up with the answers,I respected JS desision not to run Rocky in that race,and head to Kentucky.Sweet Catomine had a problem before her workout, The trainer stated on his interview that she has had issues before!!!..To me that tells me this wasnt a very confident trainer even before she breezed.The TRAINER said in the interview that she wasnt 100%...BUT we ran her anyway! This owner/trainer connection need to come clean and tell the truth..I wont say it too loud..But Im sure the trainer was "afraid" to say NO to the owner for that fear of LOSING his horse and give her to someone else

[OTM Al]

McShell a bit prophetic I guess.....

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27588

[so.cal.fan]

Canani and Wygod split. Wygod said he fired, Canani said he quit.

:confused:

[TOOZ]

The only difference between Sweet Catomine and Afleet Alex is one trainer knew and one should of known. Dems the breaks. One of the other trainers in the race said she hasn't looked that good winning this year, he didn't fear her. Everyone should have listened to him. I think Sis City is going to eat her for lunch anyway.

[McSchell_Racing]

Very sorry to hear this,Takes balls to stand up to our owners when something is wrong with their prize horse, NO owner even me wants to hear something is wrong with their horse,They want to run and win! NO trainer wants to reveal issues with his horses,I feel for the trainer but maybe now he has learned a hard lesson,I wouldnt think the trainer would just walk away from this kind of horse, The owner is correct in assessing this sitution and turning his horses over to another trainer. Honesty runs deep with owners.A filly like this will run maybe 10 times ove the year or maybe less, For that kind of money and the money spent by the owner..That horse must be ready.If the horse cant make the race..Fess up to the owners with the problem.

[Tom]

Or, it could have been from the CHRB Board Member who owns Buzzards Bay....maybe he KNEW they didn't have him under control?


From: robert kachur (view other messages by this author (http://www.escribe.com/sports/derby/index.html?by=Author&a=robert%20kachur))
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:57:42
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27593The California Horse Racing Board filed complaints Monday against Martin J. Wygod, the ownerof Sweet Catomine, and Dean Kerkhoff, a racehorse transport driver, after determining the fillywas falsely identified to the stable gate guard as a “pony” when she left Santa Anita at 3a.m. on April 4 for special medical treatment and again when she returned to the stable areathe following night

[andicap]

I think there's some difference between a trainer or owner flat out lying to the public so blatantly and remaining silent.
Sure remaining silent when something is wrong with the horse qualifies as being deceptive but just actively deceiving people as Canani did was inexcusable.
Yes, yes, you are only to blame if you listen to a trainer's reports on his horses prior to a race. They are all "doing beautifully," but there is no excuse for such a flat-out lie. It's morally wrong.
Canani was in a tough spot -- the owner is also to blame -- but he could have been a bit less effusive in his praise of SC at the press conference. You hear trainers all the time saying bland things like
"She's doing well and we are hoping for the best."

Now I'd rather they all told the truth but at least the above statement isn't such a blatant deception.

[rrbauer]

So was it 'Catomine that ran in the SA Derby or was it the pony?

I understand that now that SC is out of Julio's barn that he has put the picture of Ruffian back on the wall....over the caption, "Greatest Filly to ever Race".

As it should be.....

[classhandicapper]

"I think Sis City is going to eat her for lunch anyway."

Sis City looked great. Not only did she beat a pretty good field, but she did it without being on a loose lead.

CJ you have a pace figure for that race?

[JustRalph]

"When she returned, Sweet Catomine developed a minor foot problem. She also went into season. "

I can't wait to see the symbol they come with in the DRF for that one!

[GeTydOn]

Hasn't Penny Chenery said some of Secretariat's losses can be attributed to him having been sick or having had problems?? But they ran him anyway.

[rrbauer]

Yeah. Similar to 'Bid's needle in a haystack, er, hoof.

[TOOZ]

Ah yes, the insert a safety pin into a 2x4 causing structural damage excuse. Still the best and lamest ever. Although Drysdale can come up with some beauts.

[Suff]

One way I look at the shenanigans by Wygod is to harken back to the recent past of the 2004 Eclipse Awards.

Ken Ramsey attempted to manipulate the field of a race to earn his Stallion , Top Juvenile Sire status....and 3 weeks later they hand him the Eclipse Award for "Owner of The year"...

Was it Baileys agent that wrote a Letter to the editor at DRF defending Ramsay for all the good he does? And how he accepted responsibility and admitted his mistake.....and blah blah blah?

So Wygod shipped his Filly out listed as a Pony.... Maybe he oughta get an Eclipse award as well.

The day they handed that Eclipse Award to Ken Ramsay, they told the entire thoroughbred community....

There are no consequences for unethical owner conduct.

[GeTydOn]

Yeah, and Frankel's Ghostzapper gets Horse of the Year with just 4 races!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Next thing ya know a horse need only run maybe twice as long as he wins the right races - Derby & Breeders' Cup Classic - in a year when there is the "right" turmoil.

[JustRalph]

The day they handed that Eclipse Award to Ken Ramsay, they told the entire thoroughbred community....



There are no consequences for unethical owner conduct.



I agree with suff on this one. The owners try to stay above the fray, it seems. But lately I think we are starting to see who some of them really are. And it seems the dirtier ones are the most succesful...........also

[DJofSD]

To all:

Tim Sullivan to be interviewed on AM 600 KOGO Race and Sports radio program today -- now, 7 AM PT, Sunday.

http://www.kogo.com/streaming.html

DJofSD