Should the Public know?

[cj]

Here is a quote from a DRF article, says a lot about the state or OUR game

After the race, owner Marty Wygod came to the press box and said that Sweet Catomine had bled in her final workout on Sunday and was sent to a vet clinic for the next 48 hours earlier this week. Wygod said he had contemplated scratching Sweet Catomine before the race. None of this was disclose by Wygod or trainer Julio Canani when asked specifically about the filly's condition on Wednesday.

[rastajenk]

I was just looking at Future Pool odds thinking random thoughts about this situation. How would you like to have a Pool Three ticket on her today? If she had been declared hurt and off the Trail, they would scratch her from the pool and issue refunds. But to race, and lose, and then come out with compromising information, well, that would suck if you're left holding a dead live ticket before the Pool even closes. Glad it's not me.

[cj]

Here is what I don't get...what is the advantage to the connections of withholding this information? What possible damage could come from keeping the betting public informed?

[Tom]

Uh, first thing cvomes to my mind is "WOW! Look at the boatload of money she will take down with her! So we can get 5,6-1 on XXX!"

So either the owners/trainers were betting or Magna told them "Dummy up - we need the crowd."

Either way, bad for racing.

[Figman]

Real Strange! In the Saratoga-Albany NY area on Saturday morning the Capital District OTB corporation has a racing program on its cable television station. Julio Canani, who has been a very gracious guest and good interview many times in the past on this television program was interviewed. It was taped on Thursday and shown Saturday. Canani can be best described during this most recent interview as "aloof" and "edgy." Totally out of character!

Canani was asked straightout by interviewer Mark Cusano, "What do you say to critics that maintain that SWEET CATOMINE has not come back to her championship two year old form?" Canani appeared indignant to the question and said flatly and unconvincingly "she's as good as she ever has been." This is two days after being treated for bleeding as related yesterday by owner Martin Wygod. My guess is that Canani was being forced to run SWEET CATOMINE against his better judgement and this made him extremely uncomfortable.

[BeatTheChalk]

Ho hum .. just another BLACK MARK for racing. And what about the
TRAINER ? When the press tried to get "Julio " to talk about the horse..
Julio wanted none of it !! It's Wygood and Julio .. down by the back stretch.
What about the Track Vets ?? And what about the NEXT horse that
Mr Wygood .. brings to the races ? hmmmm ??? Sickening and disgusting.

[Secretariat]

Just bad for racing. I lost a little on Sweet Catomine, but it taints the victory for the other horses in the race. It makes Sweet Catomine's effort a questionmark for handicappers. It possibly allows for injury of the horse. This kind of withheld information is like the steroid info in baseball. Rafael Palmiero said it best when he said "A whole generation of ballplayers now comes into question." If Julio withholds this kind of info in a stake of this caliber just imagine the info withheld in a lower class claimer. The management of racing needs to address this stuff.

Sweet Catomine was severely blocked throughout the race, but was she capable of a full effort, and if handicappers had known that info, would she have been the favorite. I doubt it.

[Buddha]

I think something like that should be disclosed, but if the owner/trainer isnt going to disclose, not many others would know or be able to say so. Even if she bled in a workout, that doesnt necessarily mean that she will bleed/run bad in her next race. I know it isnt a good sign, but not necessarily a horrible sign.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sorry- there is not emough room on the pp's to list every medication treatment, training procedure and treatment a horse has successflully.
Tha announcers seemed to know she was an off the pace horse who would be running behind the boys.
Maybe you all will be happier if Mullins' horse drug test is positive, since your bigass numbers horse couldn't hang.
Like I said before fast (and bigname) horses don't win races- the first horse to the wire does. :lol:

[garyoz]

That's why it is called gambling. Should a trainer in a $5,000 maiden claimer at Tampa be held to the same standards at trainers before a stake race at Santa Anita? Why not? It is still information the public should now if you take the argument to its logical conclusion.

Come on, if you're going to have disclosure you'd end up having a vet sign off every horse before every race and making that document public. You'd never fill a racing card. There's a long tradition of withholding information from the public by trainers and owners. It is one of the cornerstones of the claiming system and betting angles. If you want "full disclosure" you're in the wrong game.

To me this is nothing compared to the performance enhancing drug problem. Now that's any area I'd like disclosure on. :D

[OTM Al]

Frankly I thought she was running a pretty good race but just had no where to go. Seemed to me that she was ready to give a good kick coming out of the turn, but she was completely boxed in and it looked to me when she could find no way through, the jock started shutting her down in the deep stretch. This of course is the problem with closers like her, bad traffic will end any chance of winning. Thing about the race that made me say huh? was Buzzards Bay showed as 40-1 in the unofficial results, yet ended up paying $66...32-1. I know it doesn't take a whole lot of money to move odds a lot when they are in that range, but it still struck me as odd.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I believe in Ca the reasons for scratches are public information as it majorly can affect the race.
I learned long ago if the horse goes, it is fit to go.

[BillW]

I find it interesting that the NFL has a model for injury reporting that, at least on the surface, appears to be viable in the horse racing world. You'd think that people bet on the NFL :eek: .

Bill

[gillenr]

I was just looking at Future Pool odds thinking random thoughts about this situation. How would you like to have a Pool Three ticket on her today? If she had been declared hurt and off the Trail, they would scratch her from the pool and issue refunds. But to race, and lose, and then come out with compromising information, well, that would suck if you're left holding a dead live ticket before the Pool even closes. Glad it's not me.
No refunds in future pools.

[cj]

I'm not sure why anyone would have bet her before the race yesterday, its not like you could lock in your odds in the Future Pool.

[chrisg]

If it's true that they withheld that info, then I'd say it's par for the course in SoCal...they always have info after the race.

But ...I didn't think she had a chance to win going in ...maybe they're making excuses...

[Jeff P]

Jeff Mullins was quoted a few weeks back as saying that we bettors are idiots. I think this is exactly the type of situation he was referring to. My take is that horseracing has been going on for a long time. It is what it is. This type of thing happens far more often in racing than we as bettors are willing to admit. I think there's something we as players can learn from this. Perhaps we should consider something like this in terms of one of the many "unknowns" that can lead to a lost bet. There comes a point in the betting where even the most likely winner gets driven down in the odds below the true chances of winning. In racing, this is the norm rather than the exception. For me, pre-race, Sweet Catomine was the most likely winner. But at odds of 4/5, the race just seemed to be screaming one word at me: Pass. For me, showing a consistent profit isn't about anythnig other than two things: 1. Accurately rating a horse's chances and 2. betting if and only if the return outweighs the risk.


.

[andicap]

Let's talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

Tom Smith, trainer of Sea Biscuit, runs his horse early in the morning, away from the public,press, etc., totally hiding his form.
Yet today he's considered a hero for the job he did on the horse and the book/movie paint him as a saint because he did what was good for the horse. Today if he did that you guys would crucify him for deceiving the public.

I agree -- sure in the best of all worlds it would be great if the info was public. But it never is. Look at the NFL. Look at how the Jets mislead (read: lied) everyone about Chad Pennington's shoulder condition when he returned.

And you can't blame them. The Jets didn't want opponents to know their QB was weakened.

My problem with the owner/trainer of Sweet was in running a potential champion that may not have been 100% sound (as opposed to 100% fit).

[cj]

Martha Stewart went to jail for similar in a different venue.

[Tom]

...and she made 4 million dollars while she was i:cool: n there, and got a TV show to boot.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Connections told the track. Read! If you have a gripe, blame it on Magna employees! LOL!

[hurrikane]

I learned long ago if the horse goes, it is fit to go.

huh????


They report vet info in hong kong. Should have been done long ago.

[BillW]

huh????


They report vet info in hong kong. Should have been done long ago.

Did you see live stewcam in Dubai during that inquiry? Another innovation that would be warranted

Bill

[garyoz]

Martha Stewart went to jail for similar in a different venue.

There are completely different laws regulating the public securities markets and gambling on animals making left turns around the racetrack. They certainly play very different roles in our society. One is used to allocate goods and services as efficiently as possible, and I think that the purpose of the second is to provide entertainment.

[cj]

Garyoz,

Entertainment? Do you really believe this? Take away the betting, and see how many people give a rat's ass about horse racing.

[keilan]

Take away the betting, and see how many people give a rat's ass about horse racing.



Take away the betting, and see how many people give a rat's ass about the NFL.

[cj]

I'd disagree K, plenty of people watch the NFL and don't bet, I know one personally! (me)

[Memogram]

Granted a number of people watch the NBA/Ncaa Basketball and the /NFL/NCAA Football without a though of betting on the games, but there also many like myself who would not watch or even care about those games if I couldn't bet on them. The NFL/NCAA should thank las vegas and offshore books, without those their TV ratings would be half what they are now.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Uh, first thing cvomes to my mind is "WOW! Look at the boatload of money she will take down with her! So we can get 5,6-1 on XXX!"

So either the owners/trainers were betting or Magna told them "Dummy up - we need the crowd."

Either way, bad for racing.


The real blame lies on the Trainer and owner.
Would love to hear what the barn help has to say! It wont be long before the whole story will come out.

[CryingForTheHorses]

That's why it is called gambling. Should a trainer in a $5,000 maiden claimer at Tampa be held to the same standards at trainers before a stake race at Santa Anita? Why not? It is still information the public should now if you take the argument to its logical conclusion.

Come on, if you're going to have disclosure you'd end up having a vet sign off every horse before every race and making that document public. You'd never fill a racing card. There's a long tradition of withholding information from the public by trainers and owners. It is one of the cornerstones of the claiming system and betting angles. If you want "full disclosure" you're in the wrong game.

To me this is nothing compared to the performance enhancing drug problem. Now that's any area I'd like disclosure on. :D

I feel the issues horse has should stay in the barn.!
A good trainer knows whether or not his horse is ready, Disclosing these problems and you wouldnt have a claiming game.When a trainer enters a horse for a race 1 He must be sure his charge is ready or scratch it period. To run a horse just because there is a big purse is a waste of time and defrauds the public of a legitimate contender for that race.

[garyoz]

Garyoz,

Entertainment? Do you really believe this? .

The Commerce Department and other economists categorize expenditures on gambling as "entertainment." (See for example Hal Vogel's Book Entertainment Industry Economics). Buying and selling securities are defined as "investments" or in some cases "savings." Personally I only usually find gambling entertaining if I'm winning.

I don't think that SEC type disclosure requirements should be applied to horse racing--something like Fair Disclosure would be impossible to implement and prohibitively expensive.

In terms of the whole controversy of this filly, I can remember being about 12 years old and having old timers at the track tell me not to bet Filly and Mare races because of lack of consistency, etc. I do think that it is a truism. I find nothing out of the ordinary about the Santa Anita Derby, except perhaps the mediocre time. Personally I lost my money on Wilko.

[schweitz]

Let's talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

Tom Smith, trainer of Sea Biscuit, runs his horse early in the morning, away from the public,press, etc., totally hiding his form.
Yet today he's considered a hero for the job he did on the horse and the book/movie paint him as a saint because he did what was good for the horse. Today if he did that you guys would crucify him for deceiving the public.


Exactly--it appears to me that some on this board must not wager on claiming races and certainly not cheap claiming races.

[chickenhead]

what I want to know is why? This aint a claiming race, they get nothing out of it but lower odds.

that said, even if you thought she was right....even money is crazy.

[GeTydOn]

Garyoz,

Entertainment? Do you really believe this? Take away the betting, and see how many people give a rat's ass about horse racing.

Well, then count me as the only one who would still watch racing if gambling was taken away. Maybe I belong in Dubai?!

[ratpack]

I remember back in 70's John Longdon was all up in arms about some sports writer for the Herald Examiner who wrote an article saying that Trainers routinely enter horses in races for "schooling" with no intention of those horses really trying to win.

The gist of what the writer was getting at was should this be allowed and should the public be informed. I don't remember the writer but it did cause a stir for awhile.