Are handicappers "nice people"

[fishorsechess]

I remeber at a Sartin meeting long ago Dick Schmidt mentioned
how he discovered so many "nice people" (handicappers) at the
PIRCO meetings. He once hung up on the phone on me once ....ha! ha!
When I first discovered the Sartin Methodology I would call
Tom Brohamer at his home and he seemed like he didnt want to
talk to me. However, at the meetings he seemed like a very nice
person. I play chess and lots of the players are egomaniacs,
self centered, selfish, introverted, socially lacking. You go
to Hollywood Park, what do you see? Bums! My guess is
horseplayers are like chessplayers. Is this true? Andy
Beyer mentioned in Picking Winners that horseplayers do like
to talk and are not the stereotypical introverted, selfish types.

[Dan Montilion]

All of us horseplayers/handicappers are introverted and rarely enjoy conversational attempts. You see this Pace Advantage site is just an illusion.

Dan Montilion

[Binder]

If there is a place were nice Sartin waggerers go it might be
V/Dc messenger
Although times are a little rough lately. I am real proud of the
nice friendly atmosphere there
We share our ideas and problems People sure are not selfish and most of the time offer help first
In this method, A modern method Doc never had. There are many times
when I read post and E mails that I really am not ready to answer. If I had to use a phone it would be much harder
I and the other members of V/DC have the advantage to think and answer when is good for us . I have Email, Instant messaging, and our own chat
room. Back when I used to speak to Doc, It was a call to California to set up a appointment , Then another call to talk to Doc were hopefully he had a chance to check the printouts I mailed to him
I got the chance to go out and Visit Doc I spent a whole day in his office
we worked five races
Today on V/DC we can do whole cards live and talk about the methodology

The times have helped. Doc for me did his best considering the methods of his time
Bind
V/DC messenger

[46zilzal]

The BASIS of the parimutuel system almost REQUIRE that one be a bit secretive and INDIVIDUALISITIC....particularly the LATTER. I would hate to think about all the hours of reading, review, record keeping, practice, soul searching, and behavior modification would be just GIVEN away to others. The reallly funny thing is even when you DO GIVE AWAY really good ideas, the majority of folks simply REJECT them without even trying them to begin with.

It is great to philosophize about the TOOLS of the art, the methods of the wager, the generalities of the whole area of handicapping, but NEVER the specifics beyond a point. Review POST wager only.

BOTTOM LINE: we all made the LONG journey, there is NO degree in this discipline and if you value what you have discovered, you don't show all your cards.

[kingfin66]

I can tell you this. I am one helluva nice guy. And this is only one of many positive traits that I possess. I am also moderately handsome, funny, gainfully employed, a good father and husband, and a good friend. In short, I am a catch.

[Buckeye]

The reallly funny thing is even when you DO GIVE AWAY really good ideas, the majority of folks simply REJECT them without even trying them to begin with.
Very true.

[whobet]

I don't know about all handicappers but the old retired guys at the track that I know that are having fun and that can afford to bet the horses are like little kids when you get know them. I loved them all, and miss lots of them. They go to the big race track in the sky and I miss them. But another one always comes along. Horse racing is the greatest.

[Dave Schwartz]

The BASIS of the parimutuel system almost REQUIRE that one be a bit secretive and INDIVIDUALISITIC....particularly the LATTER.

Although logically it would seem that this should be true, I would have to disagree with you.

My personal experience with real professionals (of which I do not count myself as I do not make "enough" from racing) is that they are extremely willing to share much of what they know and do so unselfishly.

I recall a female handicapper who was highly successful (with a solid six-figure racing income) unselfishly doing 3 hours of stand up explaining what she did at one of my seminars back in 1996. She even passed out a 38-page document explaining it step-by-step! And the real kicker? Not only was she not paid for this, she actually paid to attend the seminar! (Note: She had requested a short time to speak at the seminar; her performance caught me totally by surprise.)

(Aside from being one of the finest people I have ever known, she was a winning player before she used my software, and is still clicking along years later even though she does not use my software any more.)

Another full-time "professional" player (since 1976), who lurks here (and many of you met at Saratoga two years ago) but rarely posts, has also shared precisely what he did at a seminar. We even made and sold a video tape of this approach.


So, what is their payoff for sharing?
My opinion is that everyone enjoys being recognized by their peers. And I don't mean this in some twisted ego sense, but, as has been stated previously, wagering on a professional level can be a lonely road if you choose it to be.

Consider this... Think of yourself... If you reached the level of "successful handicapper," would you suddenly stop sharing with the guys on this BBS? How about the guys you have been talking racing with for a decade or more? I don't think so.


What makes them stop sharing publicly?
My opinion is that a bad experience will turn them right off. When I asked the man I mentioned above why he stopped posting on the HSH board, he told me got tired of people questioning whether or not he was really a winning player. He put it something like, "I feel that I am doing them a favor by sharing what I know. If they don't want to take my advice, that is fine. But don't ask me to jump through hoops for the priviledge of giving you my advice."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Dick Schmidt]

Thoughts from the other side of the fence:


First off, I never hung up on anyone in my life. I hate that, and would certainly never do it to one of Howard's clients. Now, I might get a bit short tempered, even churlish, but hang up? Never. What most of the callers I used to get failed to realize is that for them, the call was a big deal, one that they can still remember years later (even if incorrectly). For me, it was one of 15 that day, one of 75 to 100 that week, and sometimes they all asked the same question. Experts (and if you don't think they are experts, why do you call them?) are surrounded by people who want things done for them. Do me this, do me that. Tell me the answer, I don't want to do the work. Oh, and do it for free. I'm entitled. The fact that you spent three hours helping other people that morning means nothing if you don't do it all over again for that last caller. It can get a bit tiring.

The other thing to remember is that for you, the races are a fun hobby, for professionals, they are a business. If I stop to help you, it can cost me more than time, it can cost money. I had a well deserved reputation for being surly and unapproachable at the track because I was there to work, not chat. I never ignored people, I told them flat out to go away. It was the only way I could survive and prosper. Tom Brohamer was much nicer than I was, though he too got tired of the calls. At the track, he was always willing to share up until about 5 minutes to post.

So the next time you decide that someone who posts here owes you more information, or proof of anything, remember that for you it may be a big deal, for the poster who spent some precious time trying to help out, it is just one more jerk demanding "Do me, give me, show me. And RIGHT NOW!"


Surly Dick

"Tracers work both ways." - U.S. Army Ordnance Corps memo.

[Zaf]

Yes. Meeting the guys at Saratoga, Playing in many contests, I have met many great people. Handicappers seem to be really good guys & gals.

ZAFONIC

[fishorsechess]

When Mark Furhman was asked during the O.J. trial have you
EVER in your life used the "N" work he said "no". EVER is a long
time and people have short memories. It was almost 20 years
ago Dick hung up on me. I don't forget things like that but I
forgive him because I know those PIRCO folks were hounded constantly
by questions from clients.

[NoDayJob]

.


What makes them stop sharing publicly?
My opinion is that a bad experience will turn them right off. When I asked the man I mentioned above why he stopped posting on the HSH board, he told me got tired of people questioning whether or not he was really a winning player. He put it something like, "I feel that I am doing them a favor by sharing what I know. If they don't want to take my advice, that is fine. But don't ask me to jump through hoops for the priviledge of giving you my advice."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

:D Yup, "No good deed goes unpunished." - C.B. Luce :D

NDJ

[JustMissed]

(Aside from being one of the finest people I have ever known, she was a winning player before she used my software,

Regards,
Dave Schwartz


JM ;)

[The Judge]

I think we are teachers and as such are willing to teach,especially about handicapping which is our passion. I use to compile a list of sires that bred grass winners 1st or 2nd. This was when you had to hunt for such stuff. Guys at the track knew this I would tell them when asked who was likely to run well 1st and 2nd time of the turf. I xerox my list and gave it to some of the guys and told them it was o.k to share but not to copy it and give it away. Well I didn't have to worry about that because to my knowledge they never use it or brought it to the track, they just kept asking me. Now that enough to make anyone mean.

[Dave Schwartz]

JM,

Why not?

Dave Schwartz

[bobhilo]

I have met some nice sociable folks at the Palm Beach Kennel club and the old Jai Ali....no winners....but decent people....some of the old timers are a hoot!!


After 2000 I rejoined and subscribed to Sartin's Followup subscription(Had bought Pace Launcher 4).... I guess Mary Sartin dealt with me(she sent me Synthesis for free!!!) I only got 2 follow up newsletters and they disbanded.(I just read about THAT on this board yesterday)

..But I GOT A NEW PROGRAM(Synthesis) FREE!!!! So I can't bash them....

I stopped using Sartin's program and found that BRIS Ultimate PPs work about as well(with record keeping)



Spoke to Doc once he was nice about getting me a handheld calculator from a member and the TPR program to run on it....in the mid 90's....

Dick Schmidt said Sartin had good and bad things about him...but why bash a sick old man....very wise reply....

Horseracing is a thrilling spectator sport....tough to get a handle on it....golf costs a lot more...and I stink at golf....I am better at handicapping and what I learned from Sartin's teachings....like hiding the favorites and keeping records of what factors work in YOUR handicapping


Yes there are nice horse players

[JustMissed]

JM,

Why not?

Dave Schwartz


Hey Dave, Read this over about ten times:

"she was a winning player before she used my software,"

Hint: If she was a winning player before she used your software, what kind of player was she "after" she used your software?

I know what you were trying to say but it reminded me of someone saying something like "my wife was beautiful before I married her", or "he was a very good horse before I started training him".

I think there is a name for these types of phrases but I can't think of it. Maybe it has something to do with the use of the adverb "before" rather than "when".

I enjoyed your post, have a nice day.

JM :)

[so.cal.fan]

I've been going to the racetrack since the early 1960's.
You meet the same kind of people at the track you do most anywhere else.
Most are nice people.
I have met some wonderful people over the years.
Every really great person ALWAYS makes up for 10 low energy type people.
I think serious horseplayers are very smart people and most are very nice people as well.

[Dave Schwartz]

JM,

LOL - Now I get it.

Well, my point was that as much as I'd like to say "my software made her a winner" it just was not true.

Of course, she did increase her income by a factor of 5 or so with it. <G>


Dave

[fmhealth]

S. Cal Fan I totally agree with your sentiments. I went to the "BIG A" for the 1st time when I was 13. That was in 1958. Have met, for the most part the most interesting & intelligent people at tracks around the world. Virtually all my friends are fellow 'cappers that I've met at the track or OTB.

I find that we're a "subculture" of society. Although most of us have been successful in the "real world". We don't easily fit the description of being "normal". Somewhat like a square peg that almost fits into a round hole. I guess that's why my favorite show is "Guys & Dolls". I think deep down we all wanted to be Nathan Detroit or maybe even Sky Masterson.

As Harvey Pack used to say. "MAY THE HORSE BE WITH YOU"!!!

[Rick]

In my opinion, most people who bet horses are very nice people. The ones who aren't so nice are the cynics who don't really believe that the game can be beaten but are still making money from pretending that they do. They get REALLY grumpy when you ask them a simple question. WAY more money has been made by people pretending to be experts than by betting based on their opinions. That's a fact.

[Tom]

You can strike up a conversation with just about anyone at a track. Especially if you are bitchin' about a bad ride. :D