Ron Paul

[hcap]

http://www.rense.com/general63/whosbetteroff.htm

Who's Better Off?
By Rep. Ron Paul, MD
4-7-5

...before the US House of Representatives, April 6, 2005.

[ljb]

Hcap,
Glad to see not all Republicans have fallen for the neocon line. Hopefully some on this board will see the light also.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for posting this. I've always had respect for Ron Paul, because he always seems like a straigtht shooter, no matter if his gun is loaded with unpopular opiinion.

I have 1000x more respect for Paul than I do many of the "anti-Bush at any cost" folks on this board, who have posted a lot of stuff similar to what Paul stated. The reasons for this should be obvious.

[highnote]

Thanks for posting this. I've always had respect for Ron Paul, because he always seems like a straigtht shooter, no matter if his gun is loaded with unpopular opiinion.

I have 1000x more respect for Paul than I do many of the "anti-Bush at any cost" folks on this board, who have posted a lot of stuff similar to what Paul stated. The reasons for this should be obvious.

PA,

Could you clarify "The reasons for this should be obvious"?

Are you saying it should be obvious that you have 1000x more respect for Paul? Or are you saying "anti-Bush" folks have posted similar stuff to Paul before the war and it should be obvious why they posted it?

It isn't clear to me what "reasons" refer to in your sentence. Thanks.

John

[highnote]

I have 1000x more respect for Paul than I do many of the "anti-Bush at any cost" folks on this board, who have posted a lot of stuff similar to what Paul stated. The reasons for this should be obvious.


To be fair, there are also plenty of "pro-Bush at any cost" and "anti-Democrat at any cost" posters on this board.

[Bobby]

One interesting quote says that before the war in IRAQ a barrel of oil cost $27, now a barrel hovers around $56. Thx Dubya. That's why I pay $2.30 for regular

[highnote]

One interesting quote says that before the war in IRAQ a barrel of oil cost $27, now a barrel hovers around $56. Thx Dubya. That's why I pay $2.30 for regular


The cost of oil has doubled, partly because the value of the dollar has halved. THe dollar is very weak against other currencies. This has all kinds of consequences -- good and bad -- depending on individual circumstances.

[lsbets]

I'll go through the diatribe later point by point, but on a quick glance, I can say it so full of factual inaccuracies it is laughable. Unfortunatly I don't have the time right now to go point by point.

Ljb - see the light? I've seen the light on the streets of Baghdad and Fallujah and Mosul and Tikrit and Kirkuk and Ramadi. The light reveals that the truth is not what you want it to be. Enjoy the upcoming weekend in the fantasyland you live in.

[ljb]

lsbets,
First I thought you were out of Iraq. Secondly just because you are there doesn't mean you are the only one that knows anything about what is going on in the world. You are seeing but a small window of what is happening. And you are more then likely being bombarded with Pentagon propaganda.

[lsbets]

ljb, I am out. I've been back for almost two weeks. Your assertions are laughable. The only "propoganda" I ever got was the daily BUB, where I saw a list of everything that happenned the day before. Nothing for the media, just where the hot spots were, how many attacks there were, what casualties there were, and whatever operations might be coming up. Just because the facts don't coincide with your worldview does not make them propoganda. You want propoganda - how about 100K Iraqi civilians killed, or Fallujah "leveled". That is propoganda. The Lancet study has been throoughly discredited, yet those who propogandizae against the war trot it out time and again hoping that people will forget that it's false. And I love the Fallujah charge you hear from the anti-war crowd. I'd be pretty confident in saying that Ron Paul has never stepped foot in Fallujah, yet he says we leveled the city. I went to Fallujah about once a week for 13 months. It wasn't leveled.

I do appreciate your predicament. If you admit to the successes in Iraq, your worldview has been invalidated. So, you must hang on to the hope that Iraq is a miserable failure. Because admitting otherwise would mean you would have to revisit everything you so desperatly hope to be true.

[JustMissed]

Have you ever heard of a country invading and capturing a major oil producing foreign country and the price of gasoline goes up at home?

Some nights when it is real quiet I can hear George and Dick laughing all the way from Washington. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey, how about that Social Security crisis that George was trying to correct with his Privatization.....Just heard today that is off the table for now. WTF.
Still waiting for someone to tell me what that numskull deal is about.

I prayed real hard the other night that I could retract my first vote and cast my ballot for Al. God spoke to me and all he said was "Dumbass, I thought you were smarter than to fall for that reformed drunk/born again line, hope you have learned your lesson".

Hey, I used to think Hillary looked like an old bull lesbian. Now she is getting better looking day by day.

By the time gas get to $3.00/gal, she'll probably start looking like Brittany! :lol:

JM :D

[Equineer]

Fallujah

From Our Own Voice of America News as of 31 March 2005 (http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-03-31-voa6.cfm)

Four months after the assault on Fallujah: No major reconstruction has begun.
Only 80,000 to 90,000 residents have been able to return... another 150,000 displaced civilians are expected to return as reconstruction permits.
Sixty percent of homes and shops left standing still lack power and running water.
Only about 50 families have been compensated for property damages because damage payments (promised before the assault) have just begun.
Economics Of Bush's Colassal Blunder

When all Iraqi reconstruction has been completed, and all military resources expended or worn out in Iraq are replenished, most informed experts estimate that the total cost of Iraq will reach $500-Billion.

This staggering total is equivalent to $20,000 for every one of Iraq's 25-million citizens.

Here at home, 28-million American workers, or about one of every four workers in the workforce, will earn less than $20,000 in 2005... that's right, less than $20,000 in gross pay during 2005!

Moreover, because Iraq is being charged on the neo-con credit card, our national debt, Americans will still be making interest and principal payments years into the future when a reconstructed Iraq is enjoying annual budget surpluses due to oil exports.

Net Result: we lose, they win!

[lsbets]

Vetquineer - nice selective posting. Here is the crux of the piece. I hope you never have to read my living will for my doctors. :lol: :lol:

In many places across Fallujah, the devastation is still evident. But U.S. Marines say even in areas where they faced the strongest resistance, they have seen a noticeable change.

Colonel Mike Shupp says, "We weren't sure what would happen. Would we be welcomed or would people be against us? And then, all of a sudden, we realized that the people wanted us there. That they wanted security, that they wanted another chance."

A man said - "Since the day we came back, we have not seen any terrorists here."

The U.S. military says the insurgents have disappeared, and security has dramatically improved.

Many people are back on the streets. Fifty of the city's 85 schools have reopened.

[ljb]

Wait a minute didn't Wolfowitz say the reconstruction was going to be paid for with Iraqs oil money? Oh where and oh where did Iraqs oil go, oh where and oh where did it go? Perhaps someone with connections to big oil knows, perhaps they are holding it back. We'll never know for sure thats for sure, we'll never get the truth from this gang. So we'll just have to take it in the arse. :lol:
lsbets, I didn't really expect you to be one that would "see the light" but then, some never do.

[lsbets]

ljb - I find it funny that so many who sit on their ass in the comfort of their homes refuse to believe what the overwhelming majority of troops returning from Iraq say is really happenning there. There is no light to see when you are referring to the twisted perceptions that exist in your mind.

[JustMissed]

Funny you mention Tom Delay.

I just read and heard this week where his wife and daughter were paid $500,000(that's half a millon for you math impaired folk)with Tom DeLay PAC funds.

What a frigging hoot. Those Texas boys learned how to steal from the masters didn't they.

Trains, banks, cattle or land--don't matter--they know how to steal it! Now it's oil and the money right out of your pocket and your children's future.

Ever watch the old TV series "Dallas". Well it is alive and well and being played out in Washington DC. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


JM :D

[Secretariat]

I figured I'd post a strong positive about Bush and the Pope here.

First Bush's comments about the judiciary:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050408/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_delay_1

Second, the Pope's views on Iraq:

http://www.cathnews.com/news/303/124.php

Also some photos from Iraq:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/in_pictures_iraqi_lives_two_years_after_saddam/html/1.stm

btw.. Ron Paul is more of a Libertarian, not truly a Republican. He's advocated withdrawal from Iraq for a long time.

[ljb]

ljb - I find it funny that so many who sit on their ass in the comfort of their homes refuse to believe what the overwhelming majority of troops returning from Iraq say is really happenning there. There is no light to see when you are referring to the twisted perceptions that exist in your mind.
I have talked to troops that returned from Iraq. They don't spout the same story as you do.
Oh and have you had a chance to view the pictures posted by Secretariat ?

[Equineer]

Secretariat,

From your third link, Iraqi Lives Two Years After Saddam (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/in_pictures_iraqi_lives_two_years_after_saddam/html/1.stm), the comments of Thamer Hamid were illuminating:

"The corruption in Iraq is very bad now. All the ministries are stealing the wealth of Iraq. In the past groceries were cheap. The milk powder for my children was subsidized, and a box cost 500 dinars. Now I pay 15,000."

Milk powder at 500 per box suggests that corruption under Saddam's oil-for-food program was just as woefully inefficient as his military machine.

Milk powder at 15,000 per box suggests that Bush's interim Allawi government was able to establish Washington standards for efficient corruption.

Among other interviewed Iraqis, comments that securing the borders to keep out foreigners was a primary concern... maybe Bush can help them attain his standards for border patrol efficiency.

But thank goodness unemployment is still so epidemic... otherwise, Iraqis might have to endure the cruel and unusual punishment of listening to Bush pitch personal retirement accounts.

[Secretariat]

Eq,

To put that purchase into American dollars means that box of milk in Hussein's Iraq cost that fellow about $0.34. Today that same box of milk cost $10.28.

A dollar is equal to 1,459.10 dinars.

[Equineer]

JustMissed,

Tom DeLay's version of Huddie Ledbetter's "Midnight Special"...

If you ever go to Austin,
You better walk right;
You better not stagger,
You better not fight;
Ronnie Earle will arrest you,
He'll carry you down,
And if the jury finds you guilty,
Penitentiary bound.

Chorus...

Yonder come Christine DeLay.
How in the world do you know?
l can tell her by her apron,
And the dress she wore.
Umbrella on her shoulder,
Piece of paper in her hand,
She come to see da pros'cutor,
Says, "I wanna cop a plea."

Chorus...

I don' believe Christine loves me.
Won't you tell me why?
She ain't been to see me
Since las' July.
She brought me little coffee,
She brought me little tea,
Brought me damn near ever'thing
But the jailhouse key.

[ElKabong]

Funny you mention Tom Delay.

I just read and heard this week where his wife and daughter were paid $500,000(that's half a millon for you math impaired folk)with Tom DeLay PAC funds.

What a frigging hoot. Those Texas boys learned how to steal from the masters didn't they.

Trains, banks, cattle or land--don't matter--they know how to steal it! Now it's oil and the money right out of your pocket and your children's future.

Ever watch the old TV series "Dallas". Well it is alive and well and being played out in Washington DC. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


JM :D


JM,

Why just look at Delay? And, personally, I don't think 60k per yr is a lot of $$ to pay them as long as they worked for it. Much of that c/b for travel expenses. Speaking as someone who travelled a lot in 2003 and 2004, the costs build up in a hurry (thank heavens I could write it off...if i couldn't be able to write it all off i wouldn't have travelled at all).

Read on about Nancy Pelo$i, will ya? There's a politician who'll do ya a favor (as long as you contribute!). Funny that the liberals on this board don't mentione her....

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050405-123505-7189r.htm

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi helped secure $3 million last year for a nonprofit transportation-research organization whose president gave money to her political action committee as the group was paying for a European trip for one of her policy advisers. .....

But the trip is raising questions from some Republicans, who say the California Democrat and some ethics-watchdog groups are being hypocritical when they criticize House Majority Leader Tom DeLay on ethics charges.
"Given the actions of the minority leader vis-a-vis the majority leader and other Republicans, I'm having a little trouble finding where the outrage is coming from these groups that continue to pound on Republican members," a senior Republican lawmaker said on the condition of anonymity.
The lawmaker said nothing distinguished Mrs. Pelosi's actions from those of Mr. DeLay and other Republicans that she has criticized. He also said the questions about Mrs. Pelosi rise to the point of an ethics complaint.
"I think the minority leader ought to be subject to the same type of scrutiny as other members," he said.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA,

Could you clarify "The reasons for this should be obvious"?

Are you saying it should be obvious that you have 1000x more respect for Paul? Or are you saying "anti-Bush" folks have posted similar stuff to Paul before the war and it should be obvious why they posted it?

I guess it wasn't so obvious after all....sigh

To clarify, I meant it should be obvious why I have 1000x more respect for someone like Ron Paul when compared to many of the posters on this board who are/were saying similar stuff about Iraq. It doesn't mean I agree with Paul, but I do respect his opinion.

It's tough for me to respect the opinion of someone with an obvious agenda.

[ljb]

It's tough for me to respect the opinion of someone with an obvious agenda.
So, am I correct in assuming you have a hard time respecting the opinions of most posters on this off topic board ?

[hcap]

I think many of us who are against this war, now and before the invasion, resent the way we and the congress were bamboozled by a group of ideolouges, their own agenda spelled out in their earlier writings by the PNAC.

Many of these PNACers of course are now strategically placed in this adminstration.

Now you may agree with that agenda, but it was not placed before the world as THE reasons to invade. The reasons set forth were exagerated to scare and lead us into a war. Why didn't the bushies say " look at our PNAC policies and you will all know what we believe"? Ya think the congress would have rubber stamped bushs' PNAC policies?. Why didn't bush centralize his thesis around knocking off Saddam and by the way "changing the Mid East and promoting democracy?

Instead we got mushroom clouds and links to 911 type terrorists.
Geopolitical politics and CONTROL of Mid East resources (OIL) were part of the the PNACs agenda. To ensure America took a leading role in transforming the world--a "PAX AMERICANA", was to be the new glorious roman empire. Removing Saddam was one of their wet dreams.

But, their game plan was poorly orchestrated, and executed. The five sisters wanted stability and got chaos instead. Instead of rapid growth of Iraqs' existing oil fields and development of new fields, the region is more unstable, and uncertainty in oil markets is growing. Control of oil prices by breaking OPEC is a failed plan.

The neocon agenda has failed, and we were led down the garden path.

If that is not a perfect example of manipulating public opinion, I don't know what is.

[Kreed]

How right you are. It's scarey how "unscientific" neocons are. Even when
SHOWN clearly, they seem NOT TO SEE. It's got to be genetic. This
Bush admistration is all about lying & deceit & non-sceince in so many ways.
And look at who supports them: mostly the middle-class who think they can one day be upper class!! LOL ... NeoCons grow up, YOU are NEVER GOING TO
TAKE OVER the world. Maybe Ethopia is more your style. And look at how
the Bushies act with OUR money. Bush loves bankrupcy (he never made one
thin dime in business) and isn't it sad how Bush pleads with all nations to
"forgive Iraq its Billions in debt" --------- and then bullies on behalf of the
greedy credit card companies & banks to pass laws that will bring debtor prisons
back for USA CITIZENS who just cant pay those Ever-Rising Interest Rates!!!
I really wonder if these NeoCons & Republicans even LIKE USA citizens?

[highnote]

I guess it wasn't so obvious after all....sigh

To clarify, I meant it should be obvious why I have 1000x more respect for someone like Ron Paul when compared to many of the posters on this board who are/were saying similar stuff about Iraq. It doesn't mean I agree with Paul, but I do respect his opinion.

It's tough for me to respect the opinion of someone with an obvious agenda.


Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't trying to be snarky -- I was serious. You make a good point.

Some of the off-topic posters remind me of my wife -- once they take a stance they won't admit they're wrong even when their stance is totally illogical. They argue for the sake of arguing. So I do the same thing with them as my wife, I don't argue with them. What's the point? They just want to be difficult.

[highnote]

And look at how the Bushies act with OUR money. Bush loves bankrupcy (he never made one thin dime in business) and isn't it sad how Bush pleads with all nations to "forgive Iraq its Billions in debt" --------- and then bullies on behalf of the greedy credit card companies & banks to pass laws that will bring debtor prisons back for USA CITIZENS who just cant pay those Ever-Rising Interest Rates!!!
I really wonder if these NeoCons & Republicans even LIKE USA citizens?

CitiGroup - the largest U.S. bank has a Saudi as it largest stakeholder -- Prince Alwaleed bin Talal. CitiGroup seems to like lending high interest credit card money to USA citizens.

Personally, I would never have a CitiGroup card.

http://www.innercitypress.org/citi.html

This quote from the above link:

"Update of February 14, 2005: Financial literacy in the Kremlin: last week, Russian president Putin met Sandy Weill [CEO CitiGroup]. During the meeting, Weill suggested that Putin open a credit card account with Citigroup. Putin responded: "I need to see your interest rates.” Good question.... From Business Week’s Feb. 14 “Scrambling to Save Face” article: “consumer finance -- the business of extending unsecured loans at double-digit interest rates. Citi has been a player in Japanese consumer finance since 2000, when it took over a trio of brands with 1,000 consumer loan outlets nationwide.” Double digit interest rates"

[hcap]

We have argued this before. And wherever the truth lies, by the time this long term occupation is over it will only get worse. We are caught up in the ends justifies the means. The usual bs for most wars. Add in the 500,000 Iraqi kids who died from previous sanctions....

"Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq:
60 Minutes (5/12/96)

We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

No it is not. Not during Clinton not during Bush


lsbetsYou want propoganda - how about 100K Iraqi civilians killed, or Fallujah "leveled". That is propoganda. The Lancet study has been throoughly discreditedDiscredited by who? Lancet is a peer-reviewed journal. Cluster sampling is a widely used methodology.

Columbia Journalism Review on Lancet Study

Lila Guterman writes in the Columbia Journalism Review about the dismal reporting of the Lancet study:

"Last fall, a major public-health study appeared in The Lancet, a prestigious British medical journal, only to be missed or dismissed by the American press. To the extent it was covered at all, the reports were short and usually buried far from the front pages of major newspapers. The results of the study could have played an important role in future policy decisions, but the press’s near total silence allowed the issue to pass without debate. …

Reporters’ unease about the wide range may have been a primary reason many didn’t cover the study. One columnist, Fred Kaplan of Slate, called the estimate “meaningless” and labeled the range “a dart board.”

But he was wrong. I called about ten biostatisticians and mortality experts. Not one of them took issue with the study’s methods or its conclusions. If anything, the scientists told me, the authors had been cautious in their estimates. With a quick call to a statistician, reporters would have found that the probability forms a bell curve—the likelihood is very small that the number of deaths fell at either extreme of the range. It was very likely to fall near the middle."

[Tom]

lsbets has almost convinced me to take Ljb off my ignore list. I always get a kick out reading posts that come from total ignorance and then watch people who actually have some facts at their disposal grind them up.:lol:
I have this mental picute of of Ljb and eqVet playing "twister" on a map of the United States, trying to only touch blue states! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lsbets]

little girl with face paint,

while most little girls dream of being a princess in a castle somewhere, you have your dreams which you cling to no matter what. I know it must be hard when current events and what will soon be history are making your views irrelevant, but there have always been people like you who could not acknowledge what was really happenning. Its back to capping for me now, enjoy the weekend.

[PaceAdvantage]

This
Bush admistration is all about lying & deceit & non-sceince in so many ways.

I asked this in another thread, and I'll ask it here. If what you say is true, then why didn't the Bush admin just have a bunch of WMDs planted in Iraq after the invasion, then do a "Look what we found!" photo op?

[highnote]

I asked this in another thread, and I'll ask it here. If what you say is true, then why didn't the Bush admin just have a bunch of WMDs planted in Iraq after the invasion, then do a "Look what we found!" photo op?


Actually, there was a photograph that was sent to me by some military friends showing US soldiers standing around a fighter jet that was buried in the sand. I think this circulated quite widely over the internet. I think the point was to show that SH was burying all his WMDs all over the desert.

I think also that perhaps the photo was created by an artist using photoshop. I may still have it. If I do, I'll pass it on.

I was never sure if it a joke or if it was real. It's amazing what a good artist can do with a computer nowadays.

[hcap]

lsbetsYou want propoganda - how about 100K Iraqi civilians killed, or Fallujah "leveled". That is propoganda. The Lancet study has been throoughly discreditedOnce again

Discredited by who? Lancet is a peer-reviewed journal. Cluster sampling is a widely used methodology.
Sorry this seems to iritate you but has not been discredited. Maybe it's time for the military to start body counting. Assumimg we would get the truth when the tally comes in.

Now if it makes you feel superior to call me a little girl with face paint, go right ahead. Or why attack an image of a child with a peace symbol?

How about this guy that spun his own clothes? Let's call him an old fool with a spinning wheel. Attack him as well . What do old fools know anyway?

http://i.timeinc.net/time/time100/poc/images/gandhi4.jpg

[hcap]

PAI asked this in another thread, and I'll ask it here. If what you say is true, then why didn't the Bush admin just have a bunch of WMDs planted in Iraq after the invasion, then do a "Look what we found!" photo op?If it ever came out that WMDs were planted, heads would roll big time. A blatant move on the bushies part like that would not be forgotten. Besides sometimes a more subtle manipulation of evidence is not clear until the spotlight moves on.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1028-09.htm

"Twelve years ago, to sell the first war against Iraq, Bush I and his ambassador to the United Nations, Thomas Pickering, sponsored an audio-visual presentation at the Security Council that purported to prove egregious human-rights abuses by Saddam Hussein's legions in Iraqi-occupied Kuwait. The most spectacular charge was that Iraqi soldiers had pulled babies from incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals, and stolen the incubators. The story was false, but wasn't completely refuted until well after the war in the Persian Gulf had run its 100-hour course.

The atrocities propaganda had a tremendous impact on public opinion, blunting the criticism that Bush I was fighting to control the Persian Gulf oil supply, rather than to uphold principle. Once Saddam Hussein became Hitler, the job of vote-getting in the U.S. Senate, as well as in the Security Council, became a good deal easier."

Deja vu all over again

[ljb]

lsbets has almost convinced me to take Ljb off my ignore list. I always get a kick out reading posts that come from total ignorance and then watch people who actually have some facts at their disposal grind them up.:lol:
I have this mental picute of of Ljb and eqVet playing "twister" on a map of the United States, trying to only touch blue states! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom,
If you take me off your ignore list, I will be forced to take you off my buddy list. :D :D :D
From reading your posts I know that you have the ability to see the light. Hang in there Tom, better days are coming. When we will be rid of, in your words, "the worst President in our lifetime."

[highnote]

PAIf it ever came out that WMDs were planted, heads would roll big time. A blatant move on the bushies part like that would not be forgotten. Besides sometimes a more subtle manipulation of evidence is not clear until the spotlight moves on.


There was a book written not long ago about how the Bush admin conducts it public relations campaign. They don't do anything illegal, they just push the envelop. The authors claim they are masters at this. I give the Bush admin credit for that. On the other hand, I prefer straight talk. But that's not the way the game of politics is played.

[hcap]

The statue incident is an example of "planted evidence." Not blatant enough for heads to role. But sort of cheered and winked at by bushwar supporters.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Jul/05/mn/mn03a.html


http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2004/Jul/05/mn03a_b.jpg

Ahh, the fog of war. A pleasant patriotic snooze.

[hcap]

Another point of view, brought to your attention by a little girl with face paint

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4395525.stm

....Malnutrition rates in children under five have almost doubled since the US-led invasion - to nearly 8% by the end of last year, it says. Jean Ziegler, a UN specialist on hunger who prepared the report, blamed the worsening situation in Iraq on the war led by coalition forces.

...The silent daily massacre by hunger is a form of murder - it must be battled and eliminated

[Tom]

This getting boring-let's talk about RU Paul!

[hcap]

Orangutans posting pictures of cross dressers?
Save that for post 20,000

Paul is not boring. From his website

http://www.house.gov/paul/

"Our invasion of Iraq will swell the ranks of our combat veterans, many of whom will need medical care as they grow older. Sadly, health issues arising from the first war with Iraq still have not been addressed. Congress should immediately end the silence and formally address Gulf War Syndrome, which has had a devastating impact on veterans who served in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. As a medical doctor, I believe the syndrome is very real, and likely represents several different maladies caused by exposure to conditions specific to the Gulf region at the time. Congress and the VA should stop insulting Gulf War veterans and recognize that the syndrome is a serious illness that needs treatment. We can only hope and pray that our soldiers in Iraq today do not suffer from similar illnesses in the future. "

"It’s easy to talk about honoring veterans and their sacrifices, even while the federal government treats veterans badly. Congress wastes billions of dollars funding countless unconstitutional programs, but fails to provide adequately for the men and women who carry out the most important constitutional function: national defense.

We can best honor both our veterans and our current armed forces by pursuing a coherent foreign policy. No veteran should ever have to look back and ask himself, "Why were we over there in the first place?" Too often history demonstrates that wars are fought for political and economic reasons, rather than legitimate national security reasons. Supporting the troops means never putting them in harm’s way unless America is truly threatened."

[Kreed]

HCAP is making very serious arguements. I respect that. You & Me & others
think MOVE ON but a lotta guys SAY NO WAY. Examine whats happened because it could get Very Worse. In a way, we should take heed.

[hcap]

Kreed we can't move on. Sometimes we have to take a stand against injustice committed and claimed to be in our name. We didn't invade Iraq, the government did. In our name. And as you say "it could get Very Worse"

Time to disown the thiefs that stole our honor. What comes around, goes around. Bad karma big time. Let your conscience out and live in the shoes of the Iraqis and others we have manipulated for an illusionary Pax Americana

By the way, anyone see Osama lately?

[Tom]

Kreed, Hcap never made good point in his whole time here. He couldn't find a point if he sat on one. That is why he was the first one on my IGNORE list. And I am a better person not having to sift his political progagnda every day.

If we don't move on, what should we do? How about the DNC dumping this uber-loser Dean (how many primaries did he win again??:D )

Then they could stop listeninig to those Air-head America jerks Randi Rhodes, Ed Schults, and Al Frankenstein and focus on actually developing bonafide candidates with legit agenda and idea, not he trash they have put forth the last two elections.
You guys keep telling us all how dumb Bush is, but he sure as hell put your guys out of action both times. And you are setting yourself up for a triple -- the Three Amigos--75% of a grand slam.

The righty's all moved on after Clinton, and look where it got us - the white house, the senate and the house. And the Kourt is on our radar screens. BTW, thank you libs...we couldn't have did it widoutya!

Now, study hard tonight and get yer butt in the WarRoom Sunday and bring some winners with ya.:sleeping:

[kingfin66]

ljb - I find it funny that so many who sit on their ass in the comfort of their homes refuse to believe what the overwhelming majority of troops returning from Iraq say is really happenning there. There is no light to see when you are referring to the twisted perceptions that exist in your mind.

I speak to many people who have been in Iraq. I always ask them the same thing - what is it really like over there. Obviously, the media reports it a certain way. The overwhelming response I have heard is that the situation is far worse than is portrayed in the media. Every person has a different perception, and I have no reason to believe that you are simply a PR person for the military, but maybe you feel the need to believe that you made a difference over there to validate your experience. Or not. All I know is that you are the only returning soldier that I have spoken to (or at least read their posts on a public forum) that think that good things are going on. That may not be quite what you mean, and I'm not trying to misquote you, but everything I hear is that Iraq is a pit and will always be a pit.

[ElKabong]

kingfin,

My conversations w/ returning Iraq war vets (and 2 contractors that spent over a year in Iraq) are completely different from yours. I've only met one truly disgruntled vet that came back. In fact, most sound much like Lsbets.

Odd how we get differing versions. :confused:

[Equineer]

Kingfin66,

As the senior officer in this forum :), let me shed some light on Lsbets' posts by explaining what I believe is going on.

I would wager that Lsbets has been absolutely truthful in his anecdotal reports about the attitude and morale of his fellow officers and his troops.

Does this mean his reports are comprehensively accurate? Of course not. Unless you predispositioned responses from the soldiers you talked with, your exchanges with "many" returning soldiers reflect the comprehensive realities of war and conditions in Iraq.

My take is that Lsbets is a political partisan first and a soldier second. I have seen his kind before... we used to call them PCs, the abbreviation for political commissar. In the U.S. military, political partisans are not officially embedded as they were in WW-II and Korea for the Soviets and Chinese, but they get dealt with in a similar manner by many fellow officers and by the troops under their command.

Candor is wasted on PCs, and political/ideological acrimony only stands in the way of getting the job done and returning home to families. As a result, fellow officers and troops deflect PCs by avoiding unnecessary contact or by simply telling them what they want to hear.

I certainly believe Lsbets' anecdotes, but in the same way I believed Ed Norton when he repeatedly tried to convince Ralph Cramden that work in the NYC sewers was truly a dream job... even breaking into song to celebrate the joys of sewer work:

"We sing the song of the Sewer,
Of the Sewer we sing this song
Together we stand, With shovel in hand
To keep things moving along."

Well... sewer work was not quite what Norton made it out to be... and Iraq is not quite what Lsbets makes it out to be.

[kingfin66]

I also believe that lsbets is being sincere and truthful as I do the other people I have spoken with.

Let me say this about the U.S. mission in Iraq. There will always be different opinions amount individuals; soldiers, leaders, civilians. The one thing that I like about what is going on is that there were real elections and a real government is being installed in Iraq. The way I see it, the people in Iraq at least have a glimmer of hope now, where before they had none. Democracy wil take time to take hold there. How long will it take? Who knows. This is a pretty big scale operation switching from a dictatorship to a democracy.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[hcap]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000864433


" Some of the media's toughest critics on Iraq war coverage are soldiers themselves. Paul Rieckhoff, 29, as a U.S. Army first lieutenant and junior officer, was a rifle platoon leader in Iraq last year. Returning home, he founded Operation Truth, aiming to tell the public the truth of the war from a soldier's perspective, often through the media.

"I came back from Iraq a year ago and was frustrated with the way the dialogue was going in this country," Rieckhoff says at his New York City office. "Mainly, there weren't any soldiers represented. You had four-star generals or policy wonks and people on TV who had generally never been to Iraq. Rarely involved in the dialogue were people who had actually been there, especially lower-level people."


http://www.optruth.org//main.cfm