Claiming to be pro? Put your $ where your mouth is.

[fishorsechess]

Why is it there are so many handicappers who claim to
be professionals , write books, but only make 10 dollar
wagers. If they are pros they would be betting at
least in the hundred of dollars.

[BillW]

Pls explain??? Who is claiming to be a pro and betting $10? Where do you get the $100 figure?

Bill

[PaceAdvantage]

Define "Professional Handicapper."

If someone works for the DRF, handicapping races every day for a living, and having their selections printed in the paper, yet they don't make a single bet, aren't they still, technically, a professional handicapper?

There are many definitions of the word. I assume you believe the term "professional handicapper" means that the person derives ALL of their income from the betting windows (and/or rebates).

[fishorsechess]

A person who derives all his income soley from playing the
horses. And who consistently year in and year out profits
from them. There are only a handful of people that can
claim this.

[GameTheory]

A person who derives all his income soley from playing the
horses. And who consistently year in and year out profits
from them. There are only a handful of people that can
claim this.Yeah, but who are these people "claiming to be pros" that you referenced in your top post? Who are you talking about?

[Diamond K]

I think you answered your own question based on your belief.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The only reason you hear about those "pros" is because they do other stuff, like write books, write, make picks for publications, or sell picks.
How could you possibly hear of the pros who never deal with the public? I think there are some who keep to themselves but the racing industry is very inadequate at finding out who the fans or bettors are. And if so I have not heard of the information being released.
I know of no kind of gambling entities that brag about how few of their bettors win money consistently. They would just be shooting themselves in the foot.
There has been information on this forum on some public handicappers' success rate.
From what I have seen even when successful bettors who are members of this forum talk about their success other just disbelieve them instead of trying to learn.
I have for the most part given up trying to convince anyone of my ROI because they do not want to test my methods themselves- they just want to believe if they are losers everyone else must be also! Fine by me!
Besides, betting is not my only income so I do not qualify.
What is your deal on ROI and amounts bet? Are you a "pro".

[cadillac pete]

Can anyone identify by name a top "professional" horse handicapper. In sports betting, the common names one hears are the likes of Billy Walters, Lem Banker, Billy Baxter etc., but I havn't come across names on the horse racing end. Who are they?

[how cliche]

I know one professional horseplayer. One. He lives in Philadelphia. He's a bachelor for life. He keeps a nice house, a new car, invests in the stock market, loves his parents, and occasionally takes a girlfriend. He's forfeited romantic love in favor of his career. He goes to Philadelphia Park nearly every day and waits. He bets exclusively those mid atlantic courses which he says run the same circuit(LRL, PHA, PIM, AQU, BEL, etc.) He'll place a large w/p wager about once a month and that's it. He has an incredible rate of success and r.o.i.

I've surmised he's no better than anybody else. He's just more patient than everybody else.

[Light]

The "proffessional Handicapper" has been a hot topic here recently and I have participated in any I could find. So far I count about 4 members claiming to be "proffessional". Personally I dont care what they do with their lives or if they are lying. But when I prompted for further information from these individuals there was stone silence or excuses for not replying which makes me suspicious. Don't recall any mentioning $10 bets. Actually it would have been refreshing if any of them went as far as anything as specific as that.

[Pace Cap'n]

Can anyone identify by name a top "professional" horse handicapper. In sports betting, the common names one hears are the likes of Billy Walters, Lem Banker, Billy Baxter etc., but I havn't come across names on the horse racing end. Who are they?

Two of the names most commonly mentioned are Ernie Dahlman and Bill Bentner.

[Jeff P]

No, I'm not currently a pro. But, I have tried it twice in my lifetime. Both times I played horses full time (profitably, I might add) for about two years. Both times I gave it up. My reasons are listed below.

The recent questions posed in this thread and others about so called pros always seem to strike a chord somewhere deep down inside me. I did a search and found a post I made about two years ago on the subject of turning pro. Oddly enough, two years later, these answers still seem like the "right" answers to me. So here's a cut-n-paste of the post I made:



1) How long do you typically spend on handicapping each night,
A) In my case I would typically devote one to two hours the night before. That would be for a typical mid week card. For a card that really held my interest such as the Breeder's Cup, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, or Belmont- sometimes five or six hours.

2) How many wagers do you make on an average day?
A.) In my case I am always looking for value. I average two to three bets per card and usually bet win only.

3) Once you hit your optimal profit and/or hit your maximum loss, do you always quit for the day?
A.) No. If I still have plays to make later in the day I usually stick around and make them. I generally bet a percentage of bankroll. The daily swings seem irrelevant to me. I tend to measure progress by examining the bigger picture. Bankroll size at 30, 60, and 90 day intervals seems far more important to me than worrying about profit or loss for individual days. Also very important is categorizing and tracking your plays. You have to know that a certain play type is working before you can risk significant money. Anything else, to me, is sheer insanity.

4) How do you break yourself out of bad slumps? Mentally and physically?
A.) If you think you want to play full time you have to know going in that you are going to have losing streaks. And these losing streaks are going to last far longer than you would like them to. My longest personal losing streak was 57 straight plays. I had my share of bad beats, lost photos, DQs, horses that broke down or jumped the rail while leading just yards from the wire, etc. You have to accept that this is all part of the game. Don't get too emotionally attached to an individual outcome. When the next play comes up just bet your percentage of bankroll to win and take your chances. If you've done your homework you'll know going in what your hit rate, average mutuel, and longest losing streak should be. BTW, looking back at a group of 220 plays on either side of and including those 57 straight losses, and the entire group still shows a small profit.

When I played full time I generally played five days- Wednesday thru Sunday. So it was five days of work for me just like any other job. My days off were always Monday and Tuesday. I usually went camping or fishing on my days off. That usually recharged my batteries.

5) How often do you think of giving it up?
A.) Playing horses full time seemed glamorous and fun to me at first. Both times. But in reality it has to be about the loneliest full time job on earth. I'm still fairly young. I'm also still single. How many beautiful girls do you see at the track or OTB on a Wednesday? Just imagine going there five days a week.

Playing horses full time comes with other costs that aren't apparent at first. You won't have any true peers or any kind of a support system. I am a software developer by trade. The longer I played horses (and stayed out of the job market as a result) the less hireable I became to a prospective employer. That becomes real important if you ever need to go back to work. There also aren't any benefits. Anyone ever seen a dental or health plan for handicappers? Also, be prepared to pay cash if you want a new car. One of the harder things in life would have to be convincing a bank to give you a loan if you tell them you are a professional gambler. They'll just about always see you as unemployed.

If you play full time, your friends and family will all think that you've lost your mind. They all have jobs. So they think: What's wrong with him? Why doesn't he have a job? Our own sense of self worth is often deeply rooted in how we believe others perceive us.

So, for me, playing part time is the way to go. I really do enjoy betting horses - so long as I can do it for fun when I want and am not forced to do it day in and day out.

[RonTiller]

What is a "professional" ANYTHING? As opposed to what? An amateur? A hobbyist? A NONprofessional?

The definition you give is this: "A person who derives all his income soley from playing the horses. And who consistently year in and year out profits from them." This certainly sets a standard for "professional" that few others could meet. Is Shaq not a professional basketball player because he derives a lot of income from endorsements, commercials, and the (thank goodness) occassional hollywood movie? He certainly does not derive ALL his income from playing basketball. But his income is RELATED to his playing basketball. Jim Quinn's income is RELATED to handicapping (writing articles. books, selling picks, giving seminars, etc.)

Is somebody I know NOT a professional caterer because her small catering business LOST money the first couple of years? Does she contrast with the AMATEUR or HOBBYIST caterer who bakes stuff for girl scout and PTA functions?

I knew a woman who made jewelry as a hobby, gave stuff away to friends and family. She started to sell it on consignment at local stores and made some decent money, yet her primary income was still something else. What was she before and after the decision to start seriously selling her wares?

Is the golfer who struggles to maintain his PGA card, last in the money earned list, living out of his car, living on savings and the good graces of his family, a professional golfer?

Is Jim Cramer NOT a professional doing what he does because he is retired from M&M Mars drawing a retirement income as well as income from HDW. This is MY only source of income, so maybe I'm the professional and Jim is the what? Amateur? NONprofessional?

What about an actress who sells a line of clothes in a department store? The poor woman is neither a professional actress nor a professional cothing designer since she derives ALL her income from neither.

Is my brother NOT a professional musician because he works with computers by day and plays in a (for profit - not just for fun) band at night? But then again, he can't be an IT professional either.

Sad to say Dave Schwartz is not a professional programmer because he finds ways to make money that don't involve programming. Sorry Dave.

And friend of this forum, Barry Meadow, is involved in so many things he's not a professional anything, handicapper or otherwise!

I guess the point of all this is that the Professional/Amateur, Professional/Hobbyist or Professional/NONprofessional distinction is not really very perspicuous or helpful. There are people that handicap races and sell their analyses, picks, methodologies and expertise as TV commentators, touts, essayists, book writers, seminar leaders. There are (all too many) who do the same thing at the track or racebook free of charge. Some of these people may also bet, win or lose. Some just love handicapping and betting, win or lose. Some serious players spend every free hour handicapping and betting, win or lose. Some may band together in syndicates to beat the races with sophisticated computer programs and rebates. And a precious few may quit their (sometimes lucrative) jobs to attempt to support themselves solely and exclusively from RIB (Return on Bets) - with or without a comfortable investment portfolio, social security or a spouse with a very well paying job.

Perhaps there is an analogy with investment analysts, investors (who probably don't listen to the analysts), serious investors who are trying to build a nestegg or build up a lot of wealth and dabblers who may get lucky every now and then but who on the whole won't ever make or lose much money. The lines here are probably equally fuzzy. Its more of a continuum than: this side of the line, PROFESSIONAL; this side, amateurs, pretenders & everybody else.

Frankly, I've only met one person in my life who fits your definition of professional horseplayer, a very good friend of mine. No savings to fall back on, no investments to keep him afloat, no social security, no side source of income at all, no wife or girlfriend to pick up the slack, no parents to run home to. If he didn't score, he didn't eat. After 6 months or so, the stress ate away at him and he went on to a less stressful job: day trading stock (for real).

So al in all, I don't ask the "Are you a professional handicapper/horseplayer?" question anymore. Life is much more complicated than that.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[wes]

If you can't handicap and know better than to make a bet. Then you are a top PRO.

wes

[lsbets]

fish - why would anyone who makes a living betting the races (my def of a pro) feel the need to validate what they do to you? They makes their bets, make their money, and live their lives. If they're not looking at running a tout service, why would they need/want any publicity at all? What incentive would a pro have to respond to your post when all it seems is that he would get in an argument with you telling him he is not a pro? (if my take on your post is worng, sorry, but that's how it comes across).

[how cliche]

fish - why would anyone who makes a living betting the races (my def of a pro) feel the need to validate what they do to you? They makes their bets, make their money, and live their lives. If they're not looking at running a tout service, why would they need/want any publicity at all? What incentive would a pro have to respond to your post when all it seems is that he would get in an argument with you telling him he is not a pro? (if my take on your post is worng, sorry, but that's how it comes across).

I think you're correct Isbets. For years I've invited my friend to come to several internet forums to display his mastery over the game & to exchange ideas with other hardcore players. He categorically wants nothing to do with them. I've sent him links to the forums and he doesn't even open them. He has many routes to his success and wants to keep them to himself. He doesn't care about learning other people's techniques either. I think he has a lot to offer, but so it goes.

[Light]

LSbets said:

fish - why would anyone who makes a living betting the races (my def of a pro) feel the need to validate what they do to you? They makes their bets, make their money, and live their lives. If they're not looking at running a tout service, why would they need/want any publicity at all? What incentive would a pro have to respond to your post when all it seems is that he would get in an argument with you telling him he is not a pro? (if my take on your post is worng, sorry, but that's how it comes across).

Then they should keep their mouth shut.Why do they have to declare that they are proffessional in the first place? If someone truly wants to stay out of the spotlight,they wouldn't say anything at all. When they do,they're fair game.

[DrugSalvastore]

There is supposed to be some guy in Hong Kong who avg. making $37 million a year in profits over an extended period of time. I find that hard to believe, but whatever.

When you are dealing with a takeout ranging from 14-to as high as-30%, you can be assured that VERY VERY few people are going to be grinding out sustained profits over the long term. Even with nice rebates...it's still something very tough to do.

It's obviously possibly to be a long term winner thanks in part to catching a nice big score every now and than---but when you are relying on an occasional home run hit to show that long term profit...there is always the chance you won't get it.

I've gotten by nicely so far--It's fair to say my future is very dark though. I have no college education, no talent, and no motivation to do anything productive in the eyes of society. I guess I would consider myself a pro right now--but maybe five or six years from now I might be handing you french fries through the drive through window at McDonald's.

It's impossible to have a relationship with a women and bet effectivley at the same time---anyone who thinks they can do that, are either lying....or are just flat out a dramatically better player than I am.

[Dick Schmidt]

"It's impossible to have a relationship with a women and bet effectivley(sic) at the same time---anyone who thinks they can do that, are either lying....or are just flat out a dramatically better player than I am."



This is nonsense. Handicapping shouldn't take any more time than any other job, maybe 10 or 11 hours a day. When you add in commuting time, that's a regular job. I did it for years and was (and continue to be) happily married the whole time. The trick is simple: no wife objects to a winning player.

Dick

P.S. Good luck with that McDonald's gig.

[hurrikane]

wow, I have 2 sucessful businesses, investments and he horses.

i don't derive all of my income from any one of these.

Guess I'm not a professional anything. Damn, my mother is going to be really dissappointed.

[DrugSalvastore]

"This is nonsense. Handicapping shouldn't take any more time than any other job, maybe 10 or 11 hours a day. When you add in commuting time, that's a regular job. I did it for years and was (and continue to be) happily married the whole time. The trick is simple: no wife objects to a winning player.

Well, you've been about the 35th person to tell me this over the internet in the past few years.

When you hear people all talk about how great they do---you would almost think there is a 20% giveout instead of a 20% takeout. Yea, it's a really easy game, just put in 10 or 11 hours a day. I'm not implying that you are a liar either---I've been told by so many people that this was a much easier game to beat 12 or so years ago. For someone who isn't playing the game RIGHT NOW, you sure acted real defensively and condescendingly.

I don't sleep much--maybe 5 or 6 hours a night--that leaves 18 or 19 hours left in the day. I probably spend about 3-to-5 hours a day doing stuff that doesn't involve horse racing. So, I probably spend about 14 hours a day, 7 days a week doing stuff involving horse racing. This is the only message board I post on now--and I never have done more than one message board at a time. I'm always up at 4AM on the weekends digging though a pile of VHS tapes and viewing horses previous races.

I only handicap and bet at two circuits during the winter and one during the summer. If I tried to do anymore--my head would explode. I will take an occasional vacation or burnout induced layoff. Now, my updated bank statement just came in the mail, $28,768.72 as of 3/31/05--I'll E-mail it to you if you want to see it. I have about 6K in liquid cash not in my savings account...I'm not a losing player, but I'm never going to get rich doing this, and if I ever wanted a relationship, I would have to change everything.
I would add, not only am I not ever going to get rich doing this, but there is a real legit chance that I could go bust. What if I get hit on my daily bike ride, or if I brake my leg in a game of B-ball? Horse Players don't get free health insurance...I'm broke if that happens! I can always lose my edge and become a losing player as well.

If people haven't figured it out yet--you have to be a nutcase (like I am) to do this. Little Andy is like a hotshot wall st. guy--he didn't make his vast fortune doing only this stuff. I'm sure better players than I are out there--but, I have strong doubts that they are much better than I--and even stronger doubts that they devote more time to this game than I do.

[NoDayJob]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just burst a hernia.

NDJ

[sgv]

I think what dsv is trying to say is yeah! you can be succesful at this game but you have to kill yourself in the process, your social life will suffer, there is no guarantee that you will keep on being succesful. And, Your flying with out a parachute as a backup.

[keilan]

If people haven't figured it out yet--you have to be a nutcase (like I am) to do this. Little Andy is like a hotshot wall st. guy--he didn't make his vast fortune doing only this stuff. I'm sure better players than I are out there--but, I have strong doubts that they are much better than I--and even stronger doubts that they devote more time to this game than I do.

The Little Guy ---- former hotshot wall st. guy, vast fortune, talented horse enthusiast. Andy guys spend two lifetimes trying to accomplish all that. Is there any time to chase the odd skirt and or have a beer?

And for you Drugstore – You’re gonna be alright. Unless that’s you “Scratchy” pulling another fast one. :D

[highnote]

I'm never going to get rich doing this, and if I ever wanted a relationship, I would have to change everything. ....... If people haven't figured it out yet--you have to be a nutcase (like I am) to do this.

Drug,

It sounds to me like you have limited beliefs. You say, "I am never going to get rich doing this" and "you have to be a nutcase (like I am).

Guess what? Whatever you believe is true.

See, it doesn't matter what you believe as long as it is useful. So you might want to change your beliefs. You'll be surprised at the results.

What if you started to believe that "I am going to get rich doing this" and start asking yourself an empowering question like, "What will it take to get rich doing this?"

If you drop all the limited and negative beliefs and replace them with empowering beliefs you'll go far. Afterall, where do beliefs come from? I'll tell you -- we create them. So if you're going to create them, you may as well create empowering ones and not limiting ones.

You can take my free advice for what it's worth, but I believe it works pretty well.

Good luck,

John

[GameTheory]

Guess what? Whatever you believe is true.

See, it doesn't matter what you believe as long as it is useful. So you might want to change your beliefs. You'll be surprised at the results.

What if you started to believe that "I am going to get rich doing this" and start asking yourself an empowering question like, "What will it take to get rich doing this?"

If you drop all the limited and negative beliefs and replace them with empowering beliefs you'll go far. Afterall, where do beliefs come from? I'll tell you -- we create them. So if you're going to create them, you may as well create empowering ones and not limiting ones.

You can take my free advice for what it's worth, but I believe it works pretty well.

Now you tell me!

[rokitman]

Does it count as being a pro if you derive all your income from racing and your income is $1? Please let me know ASAP because I'm anxious to go bigshot around at the track with my fancy hat on if I am.

[highnote]

Does it count as being a pro if you derive all your income from racing and your income is $1? Please let me know ASAP because I'm anxious to go bigshot around at the track with my fancy hat on if I am.

If you can show an income from racing of $1 per year, year in and year out, you're doing a heluva lot better than most.

The bad part is, you'd have to have a lot of cash to draw from and that does not earn interest income. If you make only 1 cent in interest income you'd no longer derive all your income from racing.

[highnote]

Now you tell me!


Yep. My mistake. I should have told you years ago. Sorry.

Just kidding. Lighten up. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:

OK so I'm an idiot. At least I'm trying to be helpful.

[kenwoodallpromos]

How did you get your first name Drug?
I will not accuse you of being a gambling addict, but from your desciption I say you are a horseracing addict.
Both parents were trainers and you are absorbed by racing. You need a diversion at least 2 hours per day.
Go to Pogo.com and sign up and play "high stakes pool" 2 hours per day.
Then bet to show only for 1 week, win or lose.
Then clear your mind of racing and write down on paper the ways track officials try to make races competitive. Like classifying by age, sex, distance, post position, M/L, weight, price or purse. Think about how to separate contenders again for your picks. It is good practice.

[breakage]

[QUOTE

When you hear people all talk about how great they do---you would almost think there is a 20% giveout instead of a 20% takeout. [/QUOTE]
:D I often think the same thing.

[PaceAdvantage]

And for you Drugstore – You’re gonna be alright. Unless that’s you “Scratchy” pulling another fast one. :D

Ya think? :lol:

Sometimes it sucks being cynical and jaded all at the same time....

[DrugSalvastore]

What if you started to believe that "I am going to get rich doing this" and start asking yourself an empowering question like, "What will it take to get rich doing this?"

I know the answer to that question my man!

If I was just able to place my bets at the 1/4 pole I would be insanely rich in no time! Please God!, just let me do it for one stinking week! I'll even settle for the 3/8ths pole!

Seriously, I hear ya with the positive attiude outlook stuff---but at the same time, you have to be realistic with yourself. I remember in my school days, like 8th grade or so, when I always used to say to myself that I would start keeping a log of my bets and study them to help make me a better player. I could never keep at it for long, because I was always showing losses and it was almost like rubbing it into my face that I was a loser.

So one day, I had the biggest score of my life at the time, and hit for $860. I bet MUCH smaller than as compared to the amount I bet now. So I started the first day of my record keeping with the most lucrative betting day I'd ever had at the time...it was no coincedence that I ended up sticking to the log and getting nearly a year's worth of research on my betting. I think a lot of players want to believe they are winning money--even if they just aren't.

I could go to college now with the money I have, and sacrafice my bankroll and four years of my time for a piece of paper (a degree) that will no doubt make my future a much brighter one. It's worth it and it's probably the right thing to do---but it is just something that isn't an option for me. I'm happy doing this, I want to do this, and I'm going to do it even though it isn't in my best interest.

There are old classmates, old sports teammates, and good friends of mine who are right now in three different Middle-Eastern countries, who are getting it on--and doing dirty work in battles that had been started by people other than them. I think it's terrible, but to my amazement, most (not all) really seem to think they are doing a great thing for themselves, and the local people they are helping. Whenever I think about them, and how they are stuck in a hell hole, I feel like i'm the luckiest man alive. But, at the same time, I think many of the guys would rather fight in a hell hole than do what I'm doing right now. The point is, I think people should do what makes them happy, and what they think is right...but at the same time...I would be naive to think my future has to be bright...just like the boys in the middle of the mess would be naive to think they are totally safe from harm.

I'm always real incoherent when I write more than three sentences. I think reading my posts are more of a skullbuster than handicapping the Carter. I have to try and beat Forest Danger--that race is loaded--and I'm haunted by how Strong Hope ran the same kind of monster alw race in his first start at 4 for Pletcher--than went up in smoke as the chalk in this race last year. Don Six is probably the best 6f horse in the land right now--but Luzzi and the 7f distance against these bears make him a pass. Mass Media ran the lights out the last time at this track and over this distance--crushed a next-out Grade 1 winner and ran a 115 beyer in the process. The SA form is dreadful, but Bobby is a master of the Grade 1 race, and the barn sounds pretty bullish on his chances of firing his best shot. Medallist is back in form, and he ran an amazing race over this track last spring--hooked Forest Danger and made him look like a vastly inferior horse while beating up on him in a race that featured supersonic internal fractions. Unforgettable Max (Afleet Alex's older half-bro) has run a ton of negative figures on the Thoro-Graph sheets from what I;ve heard--the sheet money will keep him from being a crazy-high price. Primary Suspect has always looked like a nice prospect--he's getting good--and he took it to a long-in-the-tooth Shake You Down last out. Talk about a fun race to watch! I'm not sure I can bet it though.

Take an aspirin if you are still reading this post. A post this long and dizzy could give aspirin a headache.

[highnote]

Sounds to me like you're doing just fine -- and no aspirin needed -- I enjoyed your post.

[cj]

DrugS,

Not everyone needs to spend that much time. There are many ways to look at a race, and mine rarely takes more than 5 minutes. If I don't have a solid opinion by then, why bother, hundreds of races to choose from EVERY day. It works for me, and is a lot less stressful. I used to do it your way, spending countless hours looking at PPs, and I was usually so worn out I wasn't sharp enough to bet properly. Just my experiences.

[headhawg]

I absolutely agree with cj. If I'm taking more than 10 minutes to figure out a race then my ego takes over, at least subconsciously. I can hear it now, "Well, this is a tough race, and if I pick the winner I will be Supercapper." I'm looking to make money, not be "right". And the more time I seem to spend on a race, the more I feel obligated to bet it. Death to a bankroll, at least mine anyway.

[Overlay]

To me, one of the great advantages of relying on objective statistics and probabilities to make handicapping and wagering decisions is being able to avoid injecting personal emotion into the process, and not get wrapped around the axle over any individual horse or race. It could certainly be argued (and I would not disagree) that there is no substitute for in-depth handicapping of a race on a horse-by-horse, raceline-by-raceline basis (i.e., "What is he doing in today's race?", as Steve Davidowitz put it); and that there is potentially more to be gained from that type of analysis than from a "one size fits all" or formula approach to handicapping, provided that you're able to spend the time and endure the stress that goes with it. But, in my opinion, if the mix of factors you're considering in a quantitative handicapping model is sufficiently broad-based and fundamental, the peaks and valleys will even out, and you'll end up catching some winners that you might have discarded using more qualitative or subjective criteria. The use of probabilities also helps me to remember that handicapping the race is really about assessing the winning chances of each horse in comparison to its odds, rather than paring the field down through elimination until I've arrived at the one horse most likely to win (which will more often than not be obvious to everyone else, too).

[The Hawk]

The posts in this thread illustrate an element of handicapping that is almost never talked about but which has a profound effect on individual results. The people who master it are the sucessful players, and the people who don't can't succeed. It's difficult to learn from those who have no problems in this area because the very reason they are successful is because they have no desire to draw attention to themselves. It is also a big reason any one of us is drawn to the game in the first place.

Ego.

[Kreed]

R5 at AQU ... winner paid $99 & won wire-2-wire. I loved the 2, Heretic,
and he finished 2nd by 1/2 length after a kinda weird start. At any rate,
about 2 months ago I came across a radio station THE PEAK, from White
Plains, NY. I like the mix they play -- anyways, yesterday i heard a Reggae
song I liked & it was by Bob Marley, entitled, Lively Up Youself, and that
is the name of the winner paying $99. !!! LOL, the Exacta paid $542. hehe

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Kreed,If you had read the post 'cj' made before yours,in 'Bombs Away',it looks like he had $30.00 on that longshot!

[kingfin66]

DrugS,

Not everyone needs to spend that much time. There are many ways to look at a race, and mine rarely takes more than 5 minutes. If I don't have a solid opinion by then, why bother, hundreds of races to choose from EVERY day. It works for me, and is a lot less stressful. I used to do it your way, spending countless hours looking at PPs, and I was usually so worn out I wasn't sharp enough to bet properly. Just my experiences.

Amen. Cutting to the chase is the only way to fly. I can look at a race and determine whether it is potentially playable within seconds. If I decide to take a closer look, 3-5 minutes is the norm, sometimes a little longer depending on the bet structuring. Handicapping should be the quick part of a handicappers day. Record keeping is another matter...takes some time.

[Vegas711]

Jeff, great post. I think that I will keep my day job.

[jfdinneen]

If I was just able to place my bets at the 1/4 pole I would be insanely rich in no time! Please God!, just let me do it for one stinking week! I'll even settle for the 3/8ths pole!


Though your comment on betting at the quarter pole was in jest, in reality it is not an impossible scenario!

In Europe, betting exchanges (e.g. Betfair (http://www.betfair.com/)) offer a separate "In Play" win-only betting market on all horse races so that backers and layers can bet during the race. In theory, as long as a backer can find a layer or vice versa, one can bet right down to the wire. In practice, it is quite difficult to time your bets while trying to get the maximum information from the drama as it unfolds.

As I have indicated elsewhere, a professional cannot afford not to exploit new technology or new developments in the racing game so when in Dublin or London, I take full advantage of this scenario - using online access to both web sites, I switch between watching the live race on At The Races (http://www.attheraces.com/) and betting "In Play" on Betfair (http://www.betfair.com/). For a good trip handicapper this is an ideal combination.

As for the ROI...

Best Wishes,

John