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DerbyTrail
04-01-2005, 09:16 PM
FLORIDA DERBY A REFERENDUM ON HIGH FLY, HIGH LIMIT

Many are finding it fashionable to scoff at Saturday's 54th edition of the Florida Derby, choosing to deride the slapdash field assembled upon the untimely demure of Bandini and Closing Argument. While the absence of that pair may have tarnished the gilding of the Gr. I, $1,000,000 centerpiece of Gulfstream's meeting, the 9f test remains the important Derby Trail stop it has always historically been.

From early on, the Donn Family's concept for a Sunshine State sophomore cavalcade has proven to be fertile as a past performance entry in the career resumes of Kentucky Derby winners. Nineteen times in 53 years, those that donned the roses the first Saturday in May had earlier participated in the Florida Derby.

And while many have criticized the re-scheduling of the race to five weeks before the run for the roses, the contest was docketed this same weekend on the calendar several times in the 60's, 70's and 80's. FL-KY doublers Carry Back (1961) and Northern Dancer (1964) put in an additional start between their dual April-May Derby victories, but in an era when horses race far more infrequently, a Florida Derby five weeks before the Kentucky Derby will be a concept that takes hold readily on future prep slates.

Saturday, Nick Zito's HIGH FLY will enter the gate as the deserving prohibitive favorite. Charlotte Weber's colt is 5/4-0-1 with his wide berth showing in the Holy Bull being the difference between him and an unblemished record. He drew a favorable slot for his near the pace style, and can move to the lead at Jerry Bailey's whim. While the son of Atticus doesn't really require earnings here to make the Derby, he is tough to look past.

VICARAGE was a solid second behind High Limit's 105 Beyer stunner in the Louisiana Derby, and this event is actually a bit of a referendum on the Fair Grounds standard. If you believe that the Frankel trainee is among the elite Derby hopefuls, then Todd Pletcher's substitute for Bandini merits a long look in this event. Vicarage will have the advantage of being outside High Fly here, and helmsman John Velasquez can move with High Fly at his discretion.

NOBLE CAUSEWAY was no match for Bandini in January, and despite his pair of GP condition wins at the trip, is suspect in our view at what is likely to be a short number... PAPI CHULLO stayed in Florida after his good try 4th in the Fountain of Youth, where we understand he was nearly lame. Seemingly healthy now off a pair of good works, the poor man's Giacomo will draw play here but looks a notch below the likely exotic players...

B.B. BEST is highly underrated in this Class of '05, having amassed $413,000 in nine career starts including the game showing in the Fountain. He can take this field a long way if unchallenged, and trainer Plesa can't wait for the gates to open... If "Best" is the poor man's Giacomo, than PARK AVENUE BALL is the poor man's Proud Accolade. Consistently accused of being two-turn shy, the Jimmy Ryerson-Charlie Hesse chestnut faltered when trying nine panels in the FOY after his Hutcheson placement to the aforementioned Accolade.

MIGHTY MECKE shows up here after scoring big in the Ocala Championship a fortnight ago. His sire was third in this a decade ago behind Thunder Gulch, and we doubt Steve Klesaris threw his hat in the ring to curry favor with the Hallandale stewards. Bay merits inclusion if able to duplicate stalking form shown mid-state...

Turfy WALLSTREET SCANDAL is a fish out of water for Violette and Klaravich. But JJ Castellano is the hottest jock in the panhandle state, even if Rick seemed underwhelmed to be involved in this at Wednesday's press conference. Chestnut is one least affected by wide draw given off the pace predilection... EVIL MINISTER came back to racing in a tough spot when crushed in Lost in the Fog's Swale.

SELECTIONS:
1. (5) VICARAGE: Pletcher "second stringers" continue to surprise. Offers best value.
2. (4) HIGH FLY: Earnings or not, son of Atticus is plain faster than everyone here.
3. (8) WALLSTREET SCANDAL: Expecting LA Derby grads to confirm High Limit in this.
4. (6) MIGHTY MECKE: At 10-1, must trust Klesaris' judgment to wheel back.
5. (2) B. B. BEST: Pace doesn't figure suicidal, so feel inclined to believe Plesa.

SUGGESTED $24 PLAY:
$5 WP Vicarage ($10)
$1 TRI 4,5/4,5/All ($14)

keilan
04-01-2005, 10:59 PM
Derby Trail,

Interesting that you would lean towards this horse today (Vicarage). If you remember I had this horse and High Limit as keys in the LA-Derby. I thought Vicarage would move forward nicely in his last start and fortunately for me he did but I see him regressing off that effort.

I don’t particularly favour young horses like this to match their top or improve off of that. Couple other things that tend to influence my thinking are 1) Three weeks between starts after huge effort, 2) Pletcher only put him in this race after a couple other horses scratched. Vicarage was pointed to running next weekend I believe.

Obviously a wetfast surface moves him up but I’ll still play against.

I expect Papi Chullo to run a good one at longer odds. Thorograph and others are writing him off. I’ll be keying him in the 1st and 2nd spots.

DerbyTrail
04-02-2005, 04:17 AM
Derby Trail,
Interesting that you would lean towards this horse today (Vicarage). If you remember I had this horse and High Limit as keys in the LA-Derby. I thought Vicarage would move forward nicely in his last start and fortunately for me he did but I see him regressing off that effort. I don’t particularly favour young horses like this to match their top or improve off of that.

Keil..

I surprised myself too tabbing VIC, but he's the best value alternative. I think he gets a favorable scenario pace-wise being able to flank BBB and FLY, who may not be setting the stiffest fractions.

Good young three year olds frequently DO pair up efforts this time of year, and if Vicarage is going to be a good young three old, this is the spot to pair up. I agree with you that it's a quick turnaround, and Vicarage's line shows a tendency to react off big efforts. But think about Pletcher... This will be the third time in 4 weeks that he's thrown "horse B" into a prep like this. Vicarage in the LA Derb for Accolade... Flower Alley last week in the Lane's, and now Vicarage again for Bandini... Hmmm...

Plus, I'm a big believer in key races, and this is the spot to TRY and make High Limit's FG run a key race with Vic and Scandal. I just always Preview with an eye on value, and I can't swallow a High Fly-Noble Causeway play here.

I like Papi a lot and am anxious for him to do well. I know he was hurting physically all winter. If he's indeed feeling good, he could shock. But Basically after the top pair, everybody here is about equally fast..

kingfin66
04-02-2005, 01:05 PM
I surprised myself too tabbing VIC, but he's the best value alternative.

I agree. He may not win, but he is the value play.

keilan
04-02-2005, 01:10 PM
Last start was the value play :)

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 03:29 PM
High Fly best velocity, Vicarage best deceleration.

keilan
04-02-2005, 03:59 PM
High Fly best velocity, Vicarage best deceleration.


And your pic is................

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 04:13 PM
without an odds board in front of me.

NEVER think in terms of a simple WINNER, just scenarios and what those MIGHT pay.

keilan
04-02-2005, 04:14 PM
Then why post your s***

Tom
04-02-2005, 04:21 PM
K- Man,

I like Papi Chullo in here - if BB Best doesn't run away and hide, but I think he will feel that last move in the stretch today. He should keep everyone on their toes for 6 though, andh that will set up PC. PC showing nice improvement patterns in his pace numbers while maintaining his final figs - so 100 is not his top. I think he is ready to move ahead a few points here. At the odds, I am playing both PC and BB.

keilan
04-02-2005, 04:28 PM
Best of trips Tom :)

I think Papi Chullo will be the over-looked horse --- giddy up

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 04:28 PM
Then why post your s***
To learn from others, comments are taken in and evaluated

SOMETIMES I actually learn, or am reminded of somethings I forgot to look at.

At the root of all of this, it is simple diversity. ARE THERE RULES HERE???

JPinMaryland
04-02-2005, 04:29 PM
this is a pretty interesting race to handicap, even if this years class isnt the best. I dont have a feel for Vicarage, I sort of like Noble Causeway but Zitos horses have been a bit off form last week or two...

What's the track going to be? Like 46 I really would have to be at the track to try to make a call on this one.

kenwoodallpromos
04-02-2005, 04:59 PM
I'll get on the High horse!

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 05:43 PM
NOTHING works all the time...High Fly's last three races (all routes) have shown an increase each time in % median. Speed favoring track today could be the example that defies the simple filter. 67.7. 68.1, and last was 68.3

Let's see

cj
04-02-2005, 05:57 PM
I had his %E as his lowest ever, 51.40, with previous race being 52.33.

Actually, here are all his races, most recent to most distant:

51.40, 52.33, 52.22, 52.78, 52.18

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 06:20 PM
SAME DATA, different eyes, or , here, DIFFERENT calculations....

All lines were EQUALIZED with a variant

cj
04-02-2005, 06:27 PM
Same data, different variants probably. I make my own also.

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 06:41 PM
Decelertaion last three was getting less 94.8, 92.9, 92.4 and early/late balance was getting EARLIER -3.5, -2.0, 0

Will be interested to see what WAY the last race moved this one.

kingfin66
04-02-2005, 07:06 PM
Well, High Fly got a good trip, a good ride, and answered the call today. Zito didn't even make any pre-race excuses, so all is well. There's really no reason for anybody to get upset in a thread like this. It's just fun to try to break down a race ahead of time, even if it isn't much of a race to bet on.

Had I bet the race, I would have played Vicarage. Fortunately, I saved my cash. The race just didn't have any appeal. Hopefully, somebody made money.

cj
04-02-2005, 07:08 PM
Agreed king, I didn't see any horse worth a bet in here. I was itching to get involved in the thread, but the race did nothing for me. I'll be shocked if High Fly wears the roses in May, just not impressed with him overall. Then again, I'm not impressed with anyone yet.

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 07:11 PM
Two weeks time should clear the picture a bit, HOPEFULLY.

depalma13
04-02-2005, 08:54 PM
23 of the last 25 derby winners have had a combined final quarter time in their last two starts under :51, High Fly is at :52 and change, that pretty much dooms him from wearing the roses.

keilan
04-02-2005, 09:25 PM
I don’t think anyone’s getting upset in the thread. Last I remember Derby Trail and I were discussing the Florida Derby as we have discussed other prep races.

46 jumps into a discussion and posts the following High Fly best velocity, Vicarage best deceleration, that's it. I don’t know what the heck he’s trying to say so I ask him who he likes and then after much deliberation I’m not sure if he picked High Fly or not but he made reference to High Fly’s % median. That was minutes before the actual race and High Fly goes off at 6/5, what a friggen prediction that was

In this case I don’t see where 46 broke the race down or shared an opinion. He writes in such a way that I have no clear understanding WTF he’s trying to say, Derek god-forbid is crystal clear compared to this guy.

King if you like this guy or share the same software and respect his opinion then maybe you two could start your own thread next time, cause I don’t much care for the guy.

46zilzal
04-02-2005, 09:40 PM
How about picking NO ONE?

Much like others: disagree in one thread, can't leave it alone and it sets the tone FOR EVERY SUBSEQUENT entry.

Differences of opinion are just that: differences and nothing more

keilan
04-02-2005, 09:47 PM
You aggravate guys in off topic as well --- looks like that’s your M.O.

kenwoodallpromos
04-03-2005, 12:11 AM
I can't wait for May. I will take my winnings on Greater Good and High early. Especially since I do not need the PP's!
I guess Bailey Can win outside NY- when I pick him! LOL!!

JPinMaryland
04-03-2005, 12:40 AM
wasnt Closing Argument supposed to be in this race? What happened to him?

Tee
04-03-2005, 03:28 AM
wasnt Closing Argument supposed to be in this race? What happened to him?

"Bruised Foot"

Look for him in the Blue Grass, Wood Memorial or Arkansas Derby.

Unless that "Bruised Foot" flares up again.

JPinMaryland
04-03-2005, 04:46 AM
...I ask him who he likes and then after much deliberation I’m not sure if he picked High Fly or not but he made reference to High Fly’s % median. That was minutes before the actual race and High Fly goes off at 6/5, what a friggen prediction that was

Well, hell, you asked him, didnt you? Then what are complaining for when he gives you his pick?

Gee, it's like he cant win either way with you.

46zilzal
04-03-2005, 01:02 PM
Well, hell, you asked him, didnt you? Then what are complaining for when he gives you his pick?
Gee, it's like he cant win either way with you.

Thanks for seeing the obvious. Was under the impression that we are to exchange ideas here. Isn't that what MOST of us are DOING?

kenwoodallpromos
04-03-2005, 01:31 PM
Never mind looking for my Derby picks. You all are too busy hassling somebody who said he didn't know so I will not be giving out any winning picks since I am ignored anyway. I do not have enough of an ego to keep tooting my own horn. Just call all my previous picks luck if you want! :sleeping: