Finally . . .hydrogen cell cars

[Bobby]

Can u believe it? Bush's Dept of NRG contracts GM to build hydrogen fueled cars, just as gas prices soar to $3.00/gal. Dont ya think it's about time? His oil buddies are in on this too.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/30/news/fortune500/gm_fuelcell.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

[PaceAdvantage]

$3 a gallon? Where are you buying your gasoline?

Bush buddies in on the deal? What the hell do you think the oil companies are going to do? Roll over and die? They are going to diversify into other alternative fuels. It only makes sense. You're going to continue to fuel up your car at the service station. Duh.

[Kreed]

Bush announces that, as of june 1, the FED gov't will buy & GIVE AWAY gratis
100 Million Hybrids for FREE. Maybe that would help jump start our fuel use?
(i wonder what that costs? Does any largely american comp make Hybrids?)
what about the auto parts business? -----------

[chickenhead]

free gratis?

[Dick Schmidt]

The dirty little secret no one talks about when discussing H powered cars:


The only viable source of commercial quantities of Hydrogen is from oil and gas. No, we can't use electricity to break down water, no, we have no hydrogen mines, no, there is no natural source of hydrogen. Remember, even if we could develop a commercial process to break down water, 80% of our power is generated by fossil fuels. Hydrogen is a non starter without either cheap oil (in which case do we really need it?) or a really cheap source of electricity (atomic? dare I say the word?). Just not gonna happen, the numbers just don't make sense.

Dick

Freud's 23rd law: ideas endure and prosper in inverse proportion to their soundness and validity.

[GameTheory]

Some of you may have heard of the "anything into oil" technology developed by these folks:

http://www.changingworldtech.com/

They are turning turkey guts and plastic bottles into light crude oil. Cleaning up the environment and creating new oil at the same time....

[Bobby]

Kinda of off topic but even the right-wing Washington Times is starting to see the LIGHT: Bush has failed the American people.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050331-010648-8343r.htm

[GameTheory]

Kinda of off topic but even the right-wing Washington Times is starting to see the LIGHT: Bush has failed the American people.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050331-010648-8343r.htm
I thought you were going to link to an editorial -- it is just an article about poll results. I think the end of the article is very important:


By comparison, the seven previous presidents each had approval ratings of 37 percent or lower at various points in their tenures. The lowest rating recorded was 23 percent for Harry S. Truman, who fell to that level twice during his time in office.
Some analysts blame Mr. Bush's low approval ratings on his tendency to champion unpopular or controversial causes. But the president predicted the ultimate losers will be those who oppose his efforts to tackle tough issues such as Social Security reform.
"There's a political price for not getting involved in the process," he told a radio station in Iowa yesterday. "There's a political price for saying, 'It's not a problem. I'm going to stay away from the table.' "
He was referring to widespread reluctance by Democrats to offer their own plan for Social Security reform.
"It's pretty easy to ignore problems in politics. What's hard is to take on a tough problem," Mr. Bush said.

ANY president willing to tackle the political hot potatoes Bush is/has is going to get low approval ratings during that process. That is why they are hot potatoes -- nobody wants to touch them even though they know it is a problem. I have been impressed with Bush's willingness to take on anything he feels needs taking on, regardless of the politics. Isn't what they all run on? ("I'm going to change this and change that / I'm a Washington outsider / I will fight for you", etc.) His backbone is impressive independent of whether or not you or I think he is taking the right approach to a particular problem...

[Dick Schmidt]

GT,


I've been following this garbage into oil company since the first Discover magazine article. Now this is a technology that shows promise on so many fronts. I do hope they can ramp up and start providing a significant amount of energy while at the same time using the sort of toxic wastes that no landfill wants to handle.

Dick

Opportunities always look bigger going than coming.

[Dave Schwartz]

Gas prices- Yesterday in Las Vegas we paid $2.79 for regular!


Dave Schwartz

[Kreed]

Yesterday I wrote about Hybrids & NO, BUSH is NOT planning on giving
Hybrids away, although I think its a Great Idea. I really beleive that IF WE
DID huge amounts of Hybrids NOW, we could just benefit greatly. I asked
if any american (largely) USA companys make Hybrids? And, if Hybrids came,
what would that do to USA auto parts industry? Do you think that the auto parts generate MORE income, pay MORE taxes, than the Auto Mfgs? ummm ...
IF GM crashes, the auto parts companys can't be far behind.

[Suff]

Remember the State of The Union?

Two things caught people off gaurd..

The African Aids initiative and Hydrogen cars. Bush pitched them both a few years ago.

[Secretariat]

Yesterday I wrote about Hybrids & NO, BUSH is NOT planning on giving
Hybrids away, although I think its a Great Idea. I really beleive that IF WE
DID huge amounts of Hybrids NOW, we could just benefit greatly. I asked
if any american (largely) USA companys make Hybrids? And, if Hybrids came,
what would that do to USA auto parts industry? Do you think that the auto parts generate MORE income, pay MORE taxes, than the Auto Mfgs? ummm ...
IF GM crashes, the auto parts companys can't be far behind.

kreed,

I bought a 2002 hybrid and have 84,000 miles on it. Yes i do a lot of traveling, and have never had a problem with it. If I stay to the speed limit I get 50 miles to the gallon, and when I do 85 miles an hour I get about 40.

They like to say the technolgy isn't there. THe answer is BS. Been using it for the last three years.

[Tom]

Yesterday I wrote about Hybrids & NO, BUSH is NOT planning on giving
Hybrids away, although I think its a Great Idea. I really beleive that IF WE
DID huge amounts of Hybrids NOW, we could just benefit greatly. I asked
if any american (largely) USA companys make Hybrids? And, if Hybrids came,
what would that do to USA auto parts industry? Do you think that the auto parts generate MORE income, pay MORE taxes, than the Auto Mfgs? ummm ...
IF GM crashes, the auto parts companys can't be far behind.

Autoparts companies are already hurting. I can't see hybrids affecting us, though. What is KILLING us is the price of plastic resins - petrolium based. Some that were selling for $.45 a pound two years ago are going for $1.50 a pound now. And we cannot raise our prices to cover the cost - we have to keep LOWERing prices every year. And any cost saving sideas we come up with, we only get to keep 35% of them and have to pass 65% on to GM, et al. What is going to happen, is the quality of American cars is going to drop. You won't be able to notice it when you pay thorough the nose for that shinny new Buick. What is going on big time is "material substitutions. In other words, there are paltics that don't let your windows fog up so much in damp weather - they cost more. "We" (auto suppliers) will use the "good stuf" for our validation testing and part submissions to GM et al, then buy "crap" for day in day out produciton. Same with adhesives, so your wrapped window pillars or head rest might start to unravel in a couple of years, or less. You will probably see your colored interior fading faster in sunlight, you might find you door trim panels falling off the sheet metal becase we used cheap plastic in the xmass tree fasteners and it dries out in a year and crumbles.
You already see bad results from crash test by the insurance companies - because a good engineer comes with a high pay check - the first to be "downsized" so that lesser people are in charge of your safety.
Bumpers and frames, made not from strong metal are now made from cheaper asdel - a plastic compound - that can become brittle, can warp.
2006 mdel year roll outs are already being delayed and re-sourced becasue the autoparts suppliers are failing to meet launch deadlines with a quality product - you can't squeeze your supply base to death and expect them to deliver.

[Kreed]

What a sad but insightful post. When I asked about auto parts I was referring
to GM sticking its suppliers BIG TIME plus the Honda-Toyota reign & their
NOT using american parts, but I did NOT know of how the engineer-mfg split
was NOT a quality control problem but JUST being forced into shoddiness.
TY, for that insight.

[Secretariat]

btw..got this email today which is a way to make your own statement.

"Every time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't import their oil from the Saudis.

Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up the tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my family, and my friends.

I thought it might be interesting for you to know which oil companies are the best to buy gas from and which major companies import Middle Eastern oil :

Shell............................. 205,742,000 barrels
Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
Exxon/Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
Amoco............................62,231,000 barrels

If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 BILLION!

Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:

Citgo.......................0 barrels
Sunoco...................0 barrels
Conoco...................0 barrels
Sinclair....................0 barrels
BP/Phillips..............0 barrels
Hess........................0 barrels ARC0.0 barrels

All of this information is available from the department of Energy and each is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are importing."

Not sure of the accuracy of this email, but it is kind of interesting.

[Kreed]

great post SEC. I dont drive too much, mostly in the summers gettin away,
but Ill buy Sunoco from now on thanks to your post.

[JustRalph]

to GM sticking its suppliers BIG TIME plus the Honda-Toyota reign & their NOT using american parts,

Honda has a motorcycle and car plant 35 miles from my home, here in Ohio.

They have hundreds of companies making parts from the central ohio area.

The Accord is supposed to be 70% made in America now.

The Honda Goldwing.........that I ride.......is supposed to be 65% American made nowadays. FYI

[Observer]

Okay .. I don't even want to get into how INSANE gas prices have become .. ENOUGH ALREADY!!

Not too long ago .. it seemed like we were paying relatively low prices .. maybe 1 1/2 years ago .. somewhere less than $1.50/gallon .. unless I'm just totally remembering wrong.

ANYWAY .. regarding HYBRID cars .. careful before any of you go and make the jump to convert and do something "friendly" for the environment & your gas-fund .. plans are spreading for a "mileage tax" on Hybrid cars .. because since you fuel less at the pumps .. the difference needs to be made up somewhere .. so it would come in the form of taxation based on miles driven!

[Secretariat]

Well, Goldman Sachs might advise looking at a hybrid.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050331/bs_nm/energy_goldman_dc_1

btw, my reading on the mileage tax..unbelievable...is for all mileage on all cars ..not just hybrids. This energy President has created another disaster...except if you've bought Exxon Mobil...They seem to keep going up...

[ElKabong]

I bought a 2002 hybrid and have 84,000 miles on it. Yes i do a lot of traveling, and have never had a problem with it. If I stay to the speed limit I get 50 miles to the gallon, and when I do 85 miles an hour I get about 40.

.

Props to you for buying, and driving this vehicle. My next w/b a Prius.

[Observer]

...my reading on the mileage tax..unbelievable...is for all mileage on all cars ..not just hybrids...

Well, that's just even more outrageous!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Kreed]

The more I think about it, a HYBRID car is ready NOW -- and would save us
huge future costs, and we should INSIST that more Hybrids are made. Then,
the costs would go down. There's too many technical snags with hydrogen
cars, plus very high costs. I read that NYC buses are going Hybrid & doing away
with their hydrogen fleet, of course, after they spent Millions building a hydrogen
re-fuelling station. Tax dollars at Work.

[Secretariat]

The more I think about it, a HYBRID car is ready NOW -- and would save us
huge future costs, and we should INSIST that more Hybrids are made. Then,
the costs would go down. There's too many technical snags with hydrogen
cars, plus very high costs. I read that NYC buses are going Hybrid & doing away
with their hydrogen fleet, of course, after they spent Millions building a hydrogen
re-fuelling station. Tax dollars at Work.

There's a tax write off for buying one as well. Frankly, we could make the switch if Congress would give even a larger tax incentive to those who buy. We could wean off this mid-eastern oil real fast, IF we (a) we rewarded consumers who are fuel efficient and (b) rewarded companies that got their gas from non-mid-east sources instead of selling them discounted F-16's.

[JustRalph]

We could wean off this mid-eastern oil real fast, IF we (a) we rewarded consumers who are fuel efficient and (b) rewarded companies that got their gas from non-mid-east sources instead of selling them discounted F-16's.

This is just crap. There are so many problems with switching to Hybrids and hydrogen powered cars that it will take 10 years to replace the current infrastructure. And if we all moved at the same time, the problems of using more oil building the infrastructure would kick in. So in the long run, we use more oil......and the cost goes up due to demand. I would love to see it happen. But financing the changeover is the biggest leap. No way in hell there is a fast fix ..........

[Kreed]

HYDROGEN, NO ... HYBRIDS, YES. And besides just YES, its inevitable, so why
fight it. Once social-minded engineers get going (and they are now) then the
HYBRID will only get better & cheaper. We need MORE Nuclear Power -- the
ones now known to be ~100% safe & very tech savvy -- and we need more
use of THAT nuclear-fuel derived electricity, and theN, Hybrids on a large scale,
and then --- I dont know, but Much Less oil-gas-based transportation.
NOW ...re Honda & Toyota + Nissan, and these 3 are beginning to own the US auto industry. Who builds & sells more cars in the US? I think Honda, NOT
Toyota or Nissan. I really don't know what the trade-off is but if GM does ever
go belly-up, I just gotta feel a GIANT BALL will fall on the USA. Any thoughts?

[Tom]

This is just crap. There are so many problems with switching to Hybrids and hydrogen powered cars that it will take 10 years to replace the current infrastructure. And if we all moved at the same time, the problems of using more oil building the infrastructure would kick in. So in the long run, we use more oil......and the cost goes up due to demand. I would love to see it happen. But financing the changeover is the biggest leap. No way in hell there is a fast fix ..........

And once again, a lib is hit squarely in the face with reality. Like Soupy Sales.:lol:

[highnote]

Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:

Citgo.......................0 barrels
Sunoco...................0 barrels
Conoco...................0 barrels
Sinclair....................0 barrels
BP/Phillips..............0 barrels
Hess........................0 barrels ARC0.0 barrels

Not sure of the accuracy of this email, but it is kind of interesting.

According to the link below some of the companies on your list of companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil might actually import ME oil. They are at least doing business there.

Of more interest is the cut and paste below this link about GW Bush's stake in Bahrain oil. I got the W info from the same link.

http://www.virginia.edu/igpr/apagoilcompany.html

Bahrain:
State Companies:
The Bahrain National Oil Company (BANOCO), wholly owned by the Bahrain Government, and is the holding company for the Bahrain Petroleum Company (BAPCO)

Joint Ventures:

Bahrain National Gas Co. (Banagas) is owned 75% by the government of Bahrain, 12.5% by Caltex, and 12.5% by the Arab Petroleum Investment Corp.

Bahrain Aviation Fueling Co. (Bafco) is the aviation refueling service at Bahrain International Airport. It is owned by Banoco, 60%; Caltex 27%; BP, 13%

Original Concession Holders:

Bahrain Petroleum Co. Ltd., an equal partnership of Texas Oil Co. and Socal, also offshore concession granted to Continental Oil Co.

Continental Oil Co. of Bahrain, Continental Oil Co., Pure Oil Middle East Inc. (Union Oil of California)

Major Foreign Oil Company Involvement:

Harken Oil, of Grand Prairie, Texas, who is backed in part by Bass Enterprise Production Company of Fort Worth, Texas Harvard University, a major shareholder in Harken through an affiliate, and George W. Bush

By the way, DOE website very interesting, too.

[Secretariat]

This is just crap. There are so many problems with switching to Hybrids and hydrogen powered cars that it will take 10 years to replace the current infrastructure. And if we all moved at the same time, the problems of using more oil building the infrastructure would kick in. So in the long run, we use more oil......and the cost goes up due to demand. I would love to see it happen. But financing the changeover is the biggest leap. No way in hell there is a fast fix ..........

I've already switched with no problem. It isn't crap, it's reluctance. I didn't have to wait 10 years. In fact I did get a tax credit out of the swtich to a hybrid as well. It's about commitment. When Kennedy said we could get a man on the moon in ten years, we did it sooner. Don't tell me we can't do this. It's about comittment. If the Pres. said we're doing it in two years, we'd get it done. It took a couple of days to pass legislation on the Schiavo thing. it could be done just as fast here if the congress and president would do what's right for the country rather than their lobbyists.

Frankly, keep your gas guzzler, I don't care. But don't whine about gas prices or inflation. I'm doing my part and feel good about it.

Your solution is (a) it's crap and (b) do nothing for now. That's gonna solve the problem.

btw..Thanks Sweet. Good link. Helpful.

[JustRalph]

you didn't address any of the points I made, as usual.

[kingfin66]

Well, Goldman Sachs might advise looking at a hybrid.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050331/bs_nm/energy_goldman_dc_1

btw, my reading on the mileage tax..unbelievable...is for all mileage on all cars ..not just hybrids. This energy President has created another disaster...except if you've bought Exxon Mobil...They seem to keep going up...

The SOBB's!

[Hosshead]

The dirty little secret no one talks about when discussing H powered cars:


The only viable source of commercial quantities of Hydrogen is from oil and gas. No, we can't use electricity to break down water, no, we have no hydrogen mines, no, there is no natural source of hydrogen. Remember, even if we could develop a commercial process to break down water, 80% of our power is generated by fossil fuels. Hydrogen is a non starter without either cheap oil (in which case do we really need it?) or a really cheap source of electricity (atomic? dare I say the word?). Just not gonna happen, the numbers just don't make sense.

Dick


Actually, there is a way to crack Hydrogen from water. > The SUN !!

And if you REALLY want to, you can make your own Hydrogen at home, using solar power, or electricity if you wish.

Then use That Hydrogen to power your existing car, which (after converting) would be able to run on Gasoline OR Hydrogen. And the only amount of gasoline you would use, would be to warm up the engine, or run the car on, if you run out of hydrogen.

Cracking Hydrogen from Water, is the Clean Little Secret, That the Oil Companies DON'T want you to know.

P.S. I would suggest using a V8- (more power) :cool:

[Tom]

SOBB :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll take a whack.....son of a bitch bastard??? LOL

[Hosshead]

By the way, here I was quoting him, and forgot to say,-- Happy Birthday Dick Schmidt.

If you'd like to convert your car to hydrogen (not h-cell) , and thumb your nose at the oil companies, as kind of a birthday celebration, let me know, and I will give you (or any of my PA brothers) the info that may help you do that.

[Secretariat]

Just think if we could help companies like this, maybe it wouldn't just be Jay Leno ordering 100 mph cars.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050406/65278.html?.v=1

And a good ole USA company to boot.

[Hosshead]

Pretty Cool ! :cool: How much does it cost?

[highnote]

Bush announces that, as of june 1, the FED gov't will buy & GIVE AWAY gratis
100 Million Hybrids for FREE. Maybe that would help jump start our fuel use?
(i wonder what that costs? Does any largely american comp make Hybrids?)
what about the auto parts business? -----------


Pretty Cool ! How much does it cost?


Maybe free. Maybe it's part of the 100 million the Feds will be giving away.

[Tom]

Who gets the first two?

Tom Delay's wife and daughter???:rolleyes:

[Tote Master]

The incentives to replace natural petroleum products with the H-cell in Europe have been much greater only because we’ve enjoyed much lower gas and oil prices over the years. With the rising costs here, it’s only a matter of time before we wake up. The technology is definitely there. Once they can increase the life and lower the cost of the H-cell itself, say good-bye to oil. The Internet is loaded with interesting information especially with the things happening in Germany with this technology. Of course the Japanese are on top of it too. When America wakes up and demands that this technology be put into practical use, only then will the politicians finally have no choice but to make it a priority and support industry in the US. In the meantime, we may suffer even greater trade deficits by importing not only crude oil but useable H-cell technology as well. The hybrid car is only the beginning!

I found a link that might be of interest. (Go down the page a bit and notice the date of the article)
http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/artikeloktober2001-e.html

Has anyone ever heard the old joke about the American and Russian secret landing on the moon back in the 60’s? The astronaut and the cosmonaut finally meet after exiting their crafts. Then suddenly they recognized each other, and in German they said exuberantly, “We did it”!

I say why wait and play catch up. The country with the highest GNP, the best technology and scientific resources should not be worried about finding life on Mars! They should use the same technology that enabled our advance into space, by introducing it to life on Earth. Everyone wins including the environment. The exhaust from an H-cell is water.

[highnote]

This H-cell stuff is good. But there's still a lot of oil to be burned. Oil is a proven energy source. I think our energies (pardon the pun) should be focused on making gasoline burn cleaner. H-cells don't drive our economy -- oil does.

We need bigger cars that get decent mileage per gallon. The microprocessor has already helped big cars get better mileage.

Big cars produce big profits. Bigger profits mean more people will be employed. Bigger cars will also increase the demand for oil. Since there is so much oil in the world still to be burned prices should come down a little as producers all scramble to get a piece of the pie while prices and demand are high.

Iraq is going to start producing a lot of oil. Alaska has a lot of oil. I believe the Arctic and Antarctic have oil. There's probably a lot of oil under the sea still waiting to be pumped out. There's probably enough oil for another hundred years at the very least. We should have the bugs worked out of H-cell by then. In the meantime, carpe diem.

[chickenhead]

there is no free lunch. read Dick's post again and do some research. the numbers do not add up, not without oodles of very cheap electricity.