silliness

[46zilzal]

Animals have ability or not. They might be an excellent sprinter and a mediocre router, or they may step up on the lawn over the dirt. THE ANIMAL'S INHERENT ABILITY IS THE ANIMAL'S, NOT some silly class structure that a racing secretary imposes on it, or some irrelevant panel of handicapper's. Horse might be declining today, another improving, but AGAIN it is the horse, not the class structure one should look at.

When an animal goes up or down in this "artificial" class, it still performs to the limits of it's current ability MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE from this artificial class some imposes upon the horse.

Ah, but all hail those who still believe this nonsense

[PaceAdvantage]

So then, you don't subscribe at all to the herd instinct among horses? There are dominant and submissive roles to be played, even in the horse world.

You don't buy any of that? When a filly of equal ability is entered in a race against all males, you don't think there is anything other than pure raw ability at play during the post parade or the running of the race?

Interesting.....

And by the way, the condescending attitude doesn't bode well outside of off-topic. It's kind of a turn off....

[GameTheory]

I don't know anyone who believes that the class of the race is the CAUSE of how an animal runs. But the fact that the trainer put the horse in the race might be a sign that it can run with those that are usually in such races. Claiming prices, allowance conditions, etc are reasonable equalizers/stabilizers as far as attracting horses roughly equal ability-wise, and looking at the conditions of the race certainly has its uses.

But I never heard anyone who believes as you imply. They do believe that lesser/stiffer competition can affect a performance, but that is caused by the animals and not the class. But it was the class that allowed those horses to enter the race...

[CryingForTheHorses]

A horse will look another in the eye.Look at them old class horses that run cheap. They can look a 5k claimer in the eye and demoralize them. This old class horse will size up his competition in the paddock and also on the track.The greatest thing about them cheap 'class" horses. When they beat them 5k claimers, Its like a walk in the park.Easy competition makes it easier on your horse and a chance to win again. The trick is to leave him where he can win

[46zilzal]

So then, you don't subscribe at all to the herd instinct among horses? There are dominant and submissive roles to be played, even in the horse world.
And by the way, the condescending attitude doesn't bode well outside of off-topic. It's kind of a turn off....

Don't ascribe to that YES.

Just promoting what works FOR ME.You chose what you want.

Condescending???Just MY opinion that's all

[46zilzal]

A horse will look another in the eye.Look at them old class horses that run cheap. They can look a 5k claimer in the eye and demoralize them. This old class horse will size up his competition in the paddock and also on the track.T


Interesting OLD school belief

[46zilzal]

Herd instinct, according to ALL the animal studies I have ever read, TAKES A LONG TIME TO DEVELOPE. How long is the "herd" (entrants in a race) actually together?? Not long enough to develope ANY heirarchy and I studied this very pheneomenon as a Zoology major.

ALSO one of the greatest things WE can do PARIMUTUALLY is not act like THE HERD at the windows

[schweitz]

46,
You are of course entitled to your opinion---but I strongly disagree with it.

[46zilzal]

46,
You are of course entitled to your opinion---but I strongly disagree with it.
Good I hope MORE people do

[CryingForTheHorses]

Interesting OLD school belief

Its very true! Nothing like being on the back of a nice horse sitting besid a cheap horse, Very hard to discribe, like when you move your hands a little..He will just pull away without any urging..Great feeling!

[46zilzal]

Its very true! Nothing like being on the back of a nice horse sitting besid a cheap horse, Very hard to discribe, like when you move your hands a little..He will just pull away without any urging..Great feeling!

anthropomorphizing at it's best!!

[Tom]

I have seen more than enough data to suggest a class drop improves a horse.

MSW to MdCl is one of the most important drop in all of racing. Alw to Clmg is usually significant.

46, why is that that we do not see a huge number of peaking horses stepping up to GR1 stakes from $20,000 claimers and winning.
Why do horse ship from NYRA to FL and win off by open lengths wehn they have never been out of the back of the pack in previous races?

I went through that whole nonsense with Sartin and he is just plain wrong.
There may not be a big diff from 20K to 50K, but overall, there is a huge diff from cheap horses to class horses.

[46zilzal]

46, why is that that we do not see a huge number of peaking horses stepping up to GR1 stakes from $20,000 claimers and winning.
.
Their performances would eliminate them NOT some man made class structure baloney, just like the maiden fields

[DJofSD]

The original statement that is.

Class structures do not define class. It is a way to write races not to analyze horses.

What does herd instinct have to do with a class structure? That's like trying to tell me where I should live depending upon my annual income.

And, yes, one horse can look another an intimidate it.

For me, the so called class of a horse is a combination of how well it runs, how fast, for how long, how often. And how "tough" it is. Does it give up after a couple of bumps? Does it spit out the bit when it can't get the lead? Does it sulk becasue the jock wacks it a couple of times with the whip? Is it able to duck through a hole when asked?

DJofSD

[kenwoodallpromos]

I am entralled! Can you give me a reference for a study that shows instinct can be learned? Thanks.
Of course conditions are artificial. All that matters is the relative abilities of the horses whose MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE records qualfy them to run in it.
Old School- or not, I think most species can recognize if another of the same species is older. And all the old schoolers in racing believe stamina comes with age. Find me 1 10f for 2 year olds!

[46zilzal]

older??

when did age enter this discussion?

[JustRalph]

anthropomorphizing at it's best!!

great word..........and I agree. Somebody write this down..........!!!!!!!:eek:

[chickenhead]

it still performs to the limits of it's current ability MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE from this artificial class some imposes upon the horse.

first it was workouts and races, now it's ability and price...you're driving me fricken crazy with this MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE misuse....KNOCK IT OFF!

[46zilzal]

That is what is at the heart of this thread...K.I.S.S..... the horse's performance is it.. NOTHING ELSE

[Tom]

Well duh!

Performance IS class! :bang:

[kingfin66]

I think 46 has started an interesting thread here. Do horses know that they were once a $40k horse that is now running against $5k claimers? Do they know that two weeks ago they were running MSW, but today feel super confident becaue they are dropping down into the MCL ranks? I doubt it. It seems to me that horses are taught to load into the gate and run when the gate opens. I don't think they even know where the finish line is. They don't know class. That's my opinion.

It is also my opinion that every horse is different, just as is the case for all mammals. One horse may like being on the rail because that is how it is used to training while another may like being on the outside. Some know only to always be on the lead. Some don't like wet tracks. Some don't like getting dirt kicked in their face. Etc., etc..

[46zilzal]

Do horses know that they were once a $40k horse that is now running against $5k claimers? Do they know that two weeks ago they were running MSW, but today feel super confident becaue they are dropping down into the MCL ranks? I doubt it. It seems to me that horses are taught to load into the gate and run when the gate opens. I don't think they even know where the finish line is. They don't know class.

Ah enlightenment. Isn't it wonderful?

[46zilzal]

first it was workouts and races, now it's ability and price...you're driving me fricken crazy with this MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE misuse....KNOCK IT OFF!
INDEPENDENT OF, happy?

[chickenhead]

much better.

Class structure is just a way of getting horses of like ability together, I've never considered it anything more. If horses do "stare down" each other, or intimidate each other, or any of that other stuff, I would consider that just another part of their ability.

[46zilzal]

How can her behavior establish itself when the very nature of the race track interacts to take away ANY longer term interaction with a stable herd?

In the wild there is a very heterogeneous intreaction based upon REPEATED dominant/submissive re-infocrement to establish "pecking orders," which, in themselvles, are only transitory at best. A new dominant stallion enters the herd, and, after a number of encounters, that one has a new place in the pecking order. Some young stallion leave the herd and there is less interaction. The herd itself is very heterogenous with older, younger, male and female in varoius levels of dominance.

What happens at the race track? Animals are SEQUESTERED in stalls the majority of their day ONLY having a weak interaction with the few horses in the neighboring stalls NEVER actually having the dominant/submissive encounters of a real herd. When they are OUT, they are under saddlle, bridle and things like blinkers (ALL unnatural) . In a race, there is NO time for any of these realtionships to establish themsleves since they are coerced to run at a speed they would rarely do in the wild, in a directed way and under very artificial circumstances.

[46zilzal]

Class structure is just a way of getting horses of like ability together, I've never considered it anything more. If horses do "stare down" each other, or intimidate each other, or any of that other stuff, I would consider that just another part of their ability.
Succinctly stated. Agree

[schweitz]

Class structure is just a way of getting horses of like ability together, I've never considered it anything more. If horses do "stare down" each other, or intimidate each other, or any of that other stuff, I would consider that just another part of their ability.

And I agree also---apparently I misunderstood what 46 was originally stating.

[46zilzal]

NO where at the track does one find the HONESTY that there is (I know I am putting human traits on an animal before someone remeinds me of it) in the horse. They run TO THEIR ABILITY, FITNESS and state of health...that's it. They have NO inkling of the class status that HUMANS impose upon them. They simply DO, WE evaluate the WAY they simply do...OVER-EVALUATE methinks

[rastajenk]

It seems to me you're trying very hard to hammer home the obvious. The question is, why? :cool:

[46zilzal]

It seems to me you're trying very hard to hammer home the obvious. The question is, why? :cool:
Everyone has a "sopabox" point that they push at....this one is mine that's all...Am amamzed that this idea is still even "gospel"

[GameTheory]

Everyone has a "sopabox" point that they push at....this one is mine that's all...Am amamzed that this idea is still even "gospel"It isn't gospel, never has been.

[46zilzal]

It isn't gospel, never has been.

CLASS SHIFTS NOT GOSPEL???.... my goodness I must BURN all those old books!

[chickenhead]

it seems logical to me that in the days before semi accurate variants..how was one to know what a horses ability was? By class, of course...and in the days before variants, when horses with faster final times were routinely beaten by "classier" horses with slower final times...it was a reasonable explanation, class counts for quite a bit if that's all you have to go on...but i don't see where this is going or why it's come up here now.

[JPinMaryland]

wow if you dont believe "class" exists you should take a look at Spanish Chesnut's races. This horse is supposed to be really fast but everytime he gets a challenge he seems to fade.

It depends on what you mean by "class" of course. To me it means having physical presence to hold up when challenged. It can also refer to a general ranking of horses, e.g. "graded stakes company" it can also refer to courage and determination which are a little more intangible to define.


another example of class is when Proud Accolade beat Park Ave. Ball in the Hutcheson. Accolade butt swatted Park Ave. and he just backed off right then and there, no way he was going to challenge Proud Accolade from that pt. on. This is often what is meant by class, the horses seem to have a built in pecking order, but this may have to do with fear, being on the rail, physical contact, etc.

Still it does seem to exist, you'd need to define this term more to have any meaningful debate.

[46zilzal]

wow if you dont believe "class" exists you should take a look at Spanish Chesnut's races.
.
I got the distinct impression that this three year old had some physical problems that had srufaced a few races back as the distances got a BIT farther...

But you are talking about the INTANGIBLE whereas I started this to show the almost slavish belief that the man made class structure is NOT GOSPEL.

[chickenhead]

To me it means having physical presence to hold up when challenged.

I don't think this should be called class, but guts, or 'nads, or something like that. There are cheap claimers with 10 lb. nads...they just can't run very fast. Kind of like a tough midget...got a lot of fight to them, but who cares?

[46zilzal]

By class, of course...and in the days before variants, when horses with faster final times were routinely beaten by "classier" horses with slower final times...
I go around and around with Beyer enthusiasts about this all the time :FINAL TIME IS THE SURVIVIORS TIME, most often the battle has ALREADY been won or lost before the wire.

[GameTheory]

CLASS SHIFTS NOT GOSPEL???.... my goodness I must BURN all those old books!Shifts in class (class structure -- up or down in claiming price, for instance) are often predictive factors. They are not causes, however, which is what you seem to be implying people believe, when no one does. If the majority of "class droppers" run a better finish position, isn't that good to know? It is just a shortcut -- you are assuming that the animals running at that class are about the same ability as usually run at that class. What's the problem?

[46zilzal]

Shifts in class (class structure -- up or down in claiming price, for instance) are often predictive factors. What's the problem?
No problem, just NEVER look at the class unless "DAMAGED GOODS" sign comes on.

[CryingForTheHorses]

anthropomorphizing at it's best!!
Not sure if I have heard of this word,You know us trainers.How bought when you come out of the gate and the cheap horse is beside you, Legs going 90 miles a hour, Your on the nice horse, He is watching this poor horse beside him floundering, By the time you get to the far turn,The cheap horse is cooked trying to stay with the class horse...Then you just pull away. A cheap speed horse can foil a class horse if the cheap speed can hang on for over a 1/2 mile.If the cheap speed gets out front, Takes a bear to run him down if the speed lasts for over 1/2 mile,Not only does the horse know, So does the rider.Thats why you see these jocks packing it in after a speedy 1/2.