Thought Id Share

[CryingForTheHorses]

I know lots of you guys dont like me in some of my posts.This has no bearing on my ability as a trainer. I just wanted to tell you just how hard it is to get a stall for the small trainer. Here is my chance to show you guys what I can do .I have a couple of interested owners who want to race here in South Florida but want the horse to run in my name. I very much want that. The last couple of day I made phone calls ie workmans comp. They want 3k up front. Since I have no history at Calder and McSchell_Racing does nothing for my credbilty. I have no shot of getting a stall/stalls.I still dream at age 48 of being a trainer with my own stalls.Id give em hell if they would give me a chance.So you see there goes a owner to a bigger guy!
I very sorry PA s I thought I started another thread.Move if you must as I dont want to go off the topic of this thread

[Dave Schwartz]

McSchell,

I can only imagine how tough it is - and I'd guess it goes beyond the old "takes money to make money" adage.

As horseplayers I think trainers are "statistical objects" that we really can't identify with.



On an unrelated subject, how do you like living in Hollywood? That was home to me in my youth.

Best Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[socantra]

Unfortunate, but its pretty hard to get a foothold in any business without the capital up front. I've spent a lifetime in the club and restaurant business, and I figure to open even a small place with a reasonable chance of success would run a hundred grand or so. That's in Oklahoma. In Florida, probably closer to a quarter mil.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Since I have heard some trainers start at very small tracks or training Quarterhorses, is it easier to get in that way.
I wonder how the stalls thing works at the Northern Ca fairs, where they move every 2 weeks and may have horses at another fair due to lag time and working out.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Citing statistics showing that an unusually high 14% of samples taken in May and June of 2000 were "suspect" for opiates, Thomas said "these facts and [Baffert's] success as a trainer support the conclusion he had nothing to gain and a great deal to lose by the use of a banned substance."
Nice to be a big shot trainer in Ca.

[kingfin66]

I know lots of you guys dont like me in some of my posts.This has no bearing on my ability as a trainer.

Bingo. I like posts like this where you add insight that only a trainer would have. I don't like posts that involve attacks on other members that you perceive to receive preferential treatment.

It's interesting how we always hear about horse shortages, but then the smaller trainers can't get stalls. I am curious to know how you are even able to operate. Do you house your horses at property somewhere off track then bring them in to race. Do you have to borrow space from other trainers? How does it work?

[Sundown]

It's interesting how we always hear about horse shortages, but then the smaller trainers can't get stalls. I am curious to know how you are even able to operate. Do you house your horses at property somewhere off track then bring them in to race. Do you have to borrow space from other trainers? How does it work?
[/QUOTE]

I would also like to hear insight into this situation, if time perimts.

Thanks:)

[CryingForTheHorses]

Paying the workmans comp is no problem if they would let me have a couple of stalls. Geeze you can walk around the barn area at Calder and see lots of empty stalls. I skirt around this by putting my horse in another trainers name and pay him 15% of my purses. That saves me having to pay the workmans comp and I do all my own work and my wife gallops. I now have a few guys very upset because they wanted to race here in South Florida.These are guys that would help me get on the road to success as a trainer.Would be nice if I had a million dollars then maybe I could 'bribe" the stallman.I love to run my horses and I see lots of people at Calder who hardly ever run. They just use the place to train their horses.Members would be very surprised at the amount of small trainers that cant run their horses due to lack of stalls and workmans comp.Seems the two of these things are hurting the fields and the handle.
ps Dave I love Hollywood.Love to go to the beach and walk around.Paradise!

[Doc]

You say you put your horses in another trainer's name and give him 15% of the purses, and that way you get stalls and get around the workman's comp issue. So what happens if one of your horses gets loose and severely injures someone? Are you saying that you're not insured? I don't understand why you would leave yourself open to a big medical claim if an accident were to occur.


Doc

[karlskorner]

Just for the hell of it, take a poll, ask the 400 or so Trainers at CRC, where they started out, I doubt very much if you will find a 1 horse trainer who was given stall space at CRC. There are a dozen, if not more, farms out here in Davie, some with training tracks, that will board your horses. There isn't a day I drive down University Drive that I am not following 2/3 horse vans into the track. You can board at Palm Meadows or Payton, like a lot of other trainers. You have to start in the boondocks, like everyone else. Come April those empty stalls at CRC will be filled with proven trainers. Just to tell CRC that " I have a horse " or the possibility of a couple more hores ain't going to cut it.

[JustMissed]

I'm just guessing but maybe Calder won't give you a trainer's license without proof of workers comp insurance.

If you don't have any employees, a person could incorporate and then get a WC exemption for himself and any other 10% or more shareholders, i.e. Himself and his wife.

Could be that Calder has a blanket policy to cover all backside employees and they make the trainers kick in for the premium based on the horses stalled on premise. I don't know.

Kinda odd that for such a large group of book writers, software developers, tipsters, handicappers, trainers, owners and players, nobody ever seems to know squat about how the backside operates.

JM

[TOOZ]

Don't you officially have to be listed as an assistant trainer for this guy? Or does anything that falls under the trainer responsibility rule fall under him? Sounds like a big loophole to me.

[karlskorner]

Workmens Comp. is not McShell's problem, as he stated he can put up the 3K. Elsewhere he has posted his w/p/s record ( which is decent ) with his horse, unforuntately no one else is keeping track of it, as he is not the listed Trainer. Getting his Trainers license should not be a problem, but my opinion is that because he has a horse he is entitled to stall space at CRC. Meanwhile there are scores of 1 horse trainers out there who would like the same privilege, however, they are boarding their charges elsewhere, which is probably so throughout the racing industry.

[JustMissed]

Karl, in Tom's first post he mentioned the 3K WC like it was part of the problem getting stalls. I see where he later said the 3K was no problem.

Here at Tampa I see the same thing you do.

One and two horse trailers clog Tampa and Race Track Road.

These guys haul them in from Ocala and elsewhere 24/7.

Like everything else in life you do what you got to do to get where you want to be.

JM

[karlskorner]

I can't fault McShell for trying. Getting his Trainers licence ( if he doesn't already have it ) should not be a problem, infact if they printed the test for Trainers in Spanish, there would be 100's more applying, manys the Groom who is responsible for a winning horse.

[Buddha]

I have a couple of interested owners who want to race here in South Florida but want the horse to run in my name.

Like KK said, you cant find a farm close to the track that you can use as a "home" base? It would be more work, but takes out the politics of the track and stall allocation. Find a farm, get some horses and wins, and then I am sure that they would be more willing to give you stalls.

[alysheba88]

Paying the workmans comp is no problem if they would let me have a couple of stalls. Geeze you can walk around the barn area at Calder and see lots of empty stalls. I skirt around this by putting my horse in another trainers name and pay him 15% of my purses. That saves me having to pay the workmans comp and I do all my own work and my wife gallops. I now have a few guys very upset because they wanted to race here in South Florida.These are guys that would help me get on the road to success as a trainer.Would be nice if I had a million dollars then maybe I could 'bribe" the stallman.I love to run my horses and I see lots of people at Calder who hardly ever run. They just use the place to train their horses.Members would be very surprised at the amount of small trainers that cant run their horses due to lack of stalls and workmans comp.Seems the two of these things are hurting the fields and the handle.
ps Dave I love Hollywood.Love to go to the beach and walk around.Paradise!


McSchell, I appreciate how hard it must be. So excuse me for taking a quote from a part of your post. Specifically regarding putting your horse in anoter trainers name. I understand this is commonplace, happens all the time. But as a player I hate it, and wish it was stopped. Totally deceives the public

[hurrikane]

ok, I'm going to sound like a ball buster but really man, listen to yourself.

karl is right. What in the hell are you complaining about. build on what you have. Earn your way in. The track should give you a stall for one horse to race in one race every few weeks. If they did that you'd have fields the size of SA. This is a bunch of cry baby bs if you ask me.

I think you are making excuses. The fed should have given me a 35 mil contract but they tought I didn't have the experience with contracts that large. So my company has to go as a sub under someone that gets paid for doing nothing. That's life man...suck it up.

One day soon I'll be the prime and someone will be bitching about me.
If I don't quit or cry about it to much. (hint hint)

[azibuck]

I should let McSchell answer for himself, but wouldn't blame him if he dropped the issue now.

I think what he's saying is that he can't run a horse in his name without the workmen's comp issue coming into play. He ALREADY stables horses off the grounds (I think. Right?). So stabling horses for these new owners off the grounds doesn't get him anywhere if they are to be raced in his name.

I think the question is, why do these owners want the horse run in your name, if it's not an attempt to deceive the public because it's really trained by someone else -- which doesn't sound like the case here.

Hurrikane, your "earn your way in" comment is ridiculous. That's his point -- that's what he's trying to do. He's not coming in off the street with nothing -- he's trained horses off track, and now he's got the prospect of building a stable. He's trying to take the next step. That's the way I read it anyway.

Also, I think you've got it wrong on him saying paying the WC was no problem. I think paying the $3K up front is part of the problem. IF he had stalls, then paying WC would NOT be a problem.

[CryingForTheHorses]

When I run under another trainer, I am covered undr workmans comp as a owner.I guess I will look round and see what place I can find.3k is a lot of money but I would gladly pay it if they gave me stalls.Its not worth it just for my 1 horse.Its not a matter of them" giving" me my trainers licence, I have held 1 since 1982.Its going to take a while to get in I guess. Funny thing is EVERYBODY knows us and even the track president always talks wih me.I am a racing secretarys dream as I love to run.Every trainer that I have let be my program trainer has made money.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Don't you officially have to be listed as an assistant trainer for this guy? Or does anything that falls under the trainer responsibility rule fall under him? Sounds like a big loophole to me.

Why would I have to be his asst? Im an owner!I pay him 15%.He covers me with workmans comp, Gives me shavings and hay. I buy all the feed and equipment the horse needs and PAY all the bills.

[Suff]

for christsake.. You been down there awhile haven't you? Why don't you have something in place. Let me give you a lead.

Your in Hollywood right? You know where Dania Jai-Lai is? You know where you take that right turn off US1 to go down to the Jai-lai track? It is the first street on your right.. Its First Ave I believe. You should be right near it.

Wayside Inn.... and cafe

Start stopping in there for a Beer once and awhile. You'll have a stall in 3-4 weeks.

as long as you don't act to stupid.

[CryingForTheHorses]

for christsake.. You been down there awhile haven't you? Why don't you have something in place. Let me give you a lead.

Your in Hollywood right? You know where Dania Jai-Lai is? You know where you take that right turn off US1 to go down to the Jai-lai track? It is the first street on your right.. Its First Ave I believe. You should be right near it.

Wayside Inn.... and cafe

Start stopping in there for a Beer once and awhile. You'll have a stall in 3-4 weeks.

as long as you don't act to stupid.

Dont mean to quote but Suff..Who goes there. I do know where you are talking about. I thought with us running our horses and everybody knowing us, I thought that was a 'in".

[kenwoodallpromos]

It sounds like Tom is a legal owner who helps train and care for his own horses- I thing The Horse Whisperer does the same thing and Baffert is the legal trainer of record for some of Monty Roberts' horses.
Many trainers are co-owners; Tom is a co-trainer and owner.
As for who really works with the various horses under a trainer's name; I do not care to handicap the stable help, groom, asst trainer, vet, farrier, and owner; Most of Tom's horses are bought and sold within 1 year anyway.
I want to know that track officials and connections are competent because that is all you can hope for; I can usually tell a bad trainer from assessing a horse the trainer has had a few races.
As far as I am concerned, Tom is the only one who comes on this forum and teaches me what goes on in a horse's career; I know of no other place to get the kind of information he freely puts out here concerning horse health, trainer strategy, buying and selling horses, and stall politics that I know goes on.
I can also be sure that any trainer that allows Tom to run as the owner under that trainer's name is automatically a smart trainer!
Don't I wish a lot more owners and trainers would come on here and give away the farm!!LOL!! :jump:

[Suff]

Dont mean to quote but Suff..Who goes there. I do know where you are talking about. I thought with us running our horses and everybody knowing us, I thought that was a 'in".


The thing is,, many times a guy will let you have stall he might have empty or be using to store tack... because he likes you or you help him out ..

Like doing the 5 AM feed once in a while, or Tacking up 1 of his horses in the AM so he can get all his stock on the Track for morning excersise. Or walking a Horse to the paddock before a race , or better yet walking one back after a Loss,, or a new claim.. Or coming in on a Non-race day to do the afternoon feed.. or walking a horse an extra 15 minutes because the horse needs it... stuff like that,.

I know more than a handfull of guys that have 1, 2 3 or 4 horses that make themselves useful and get a home for their animals...

This Place I told you about is a Bar owned by 4 Boston Guys... all of them are Suffolk Downs types.. the place is full of Northeast Horsemen that help each other out with the stuff your talking about. You go in there, make a friend or two...and people will help you.. Thats the way it is done where I come from..

Matter of fact.. when you go in there.. Look above the Cash Register next to the Grill, on the small end of the bar. You 'll see a huge Picture of Colin Powell and a Smiling Boston Irishman in a Tuxedo. Thats my Dad. Doc Dudley. Tell them your a friend of his, and they'll be lending you money ! Lol

Seriously.. a Lot of good guys in there that know how to get things done..

[CryingForTheHorses]

Thanks Suff. Thats very kind of you to even mention anything.Your posts have always had my utmost respect!
You must remember ths Suff. Trainers are very funny people,Let me ask you this..If I had a horse in your barn that has won his last 3..Would you be nervous about me being in your barn, being that successful with every horse I own then having your own owners horses run bad.When I train my horse, It is very early and I dont worry about "talking" to the wrong person. Another thing a trainer fears...Is losing his owner to another trainer.Even if you help them, There is always that "resentment".Does anyone know about Boyton Beach ttraining center, Fees? Are they going to stay open all year? Suff We may go check that place tomorrow. Ill let you know. Again Thankyou.

[Suff]

Suff We may go check that place tomorrow. Ill let you know. Again Thankyou.


I have a feeling you might not be to adept at navigating a Barroom. Just a hunch.

Do you know Bobby Dibona? You know of him? He's down your way. Total degenerate Gambler/Trainer. But good guy to know. They did a piece on him when Gulfstream opened this year.. it was on the front page of thier web site for a month... it might still be archived there.

Don't go in there with your hat in your hand. Stop in, take a whiff, put your antenna's up, Radar on...and navigate. ;)

go slow and steady

[JustRalph]

I have a feeling you might not be to adept at navigating a Barroom. Just a hunch.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Now that was a low blow!!!

Too! Damn it! ;)

[keilan]

Christ Suff I’d love to be a fly on the wall when McSchelly shows up there.

Mc just a word to the wise don’t begin each new conversation with “Frankie is my hero”.

Suff if he gets hurt I'll hold you directly responsible hehe

[Suff]

I picture him walking in and saying

Can I get a Shirley Temple please.. Paying with exact change and saying "Oh and Mike Dudley said someone would give me a stall for my horse in here? "LMAO

No seriously.. You gotta love Mcshell. Maybe I'm wrong. But he's a lovable guy

[CryingForTheHorses]

I have a feeling you might not be to adept at navigating a Barroom. Just a hunch.

Do you know Bobby Dibona? You know of him? He's down your way. Total degenerate Gambler/Trainer. But good guy to know. They did a piece on him when Gulfstream opened this year.. it was on the front page of thier web site for a month... it might still be archived there.

Don't go in there with your hat in your hand. Stop in, take a whiff, put your antenna's up, Radar on...and navigate. ;)

go slow and steady

I believe I know Robert.Didn he have a horse called King something?..Didnt Nick C train for him at Suffolk?.If ths is the same guy, Lisa rode for him in Boston and finished 2nd on his horse.

[MR MAGNA]

I read this thread and think i got a feel for your situation.

I would look at hooking up with a big trainer, working under "assistant" status, but at the same time, renting out a couple stalls for your horses.

Many trainers are stubborn and won't take kindly to any suggestions you might have on how to train a horse. What you want is someone who is not like that.

I know, when i give someone like Tino Attard(who's been a trainer for 50+ years) a training tip, he looks at me funny.

You also want this trainer to let you handle a couple of his own horses.

This is how you build a name for yourself, and get the financial backing of owners behind you when you go solo.

I can tell you for me it is quite easy now, i can have any job i want within an hour up at Woodbine, but it wasn't always like that, and it's the same story for a lot of guys.

I'll give you an example, as you know, we have a lot of good horses at my stable, the head trainers get the top 10, for example, to focus on, but what happens to the others, somebody has to take care of them too. That someone is usually someone like me.

I'll get the geldings, the undersized, the bow legged, or whatever. The expectations are low, so i can tinker around with creative training techniques.

It's like a coach taking over a losing team and having success. With a horse, it could be the simplest thing like an uncomfortable shoe or a breathing impairment preventing them from success. Not much gets by our guys, but there are a lot of trainers who are completely "out to lunch". I've seen guys run horses who were limping.

When you achieve some kind of unexpected success, the word will get around, and new owners will sometimes feel more comfortable with a small trainer, thinking their horse will get more attention, of course finding owners you will get along with is your responsibility, but as long as you have some kind of positive reputation, and someone notable to vouch for you, you should be ok.

I'll tell you a story, you might like it

These owners who were from my part of the world, Europe originally, asked me to check out their 2 year olds, who weren't doing as good as they thought they should be, they were grandsons of Northern Dancer, and looked decent enough, i could tell right away they weren't speedy types, but i figured they had some run in them, so i hung around their stable for a couple of weeks, checking out the element.

Not to get into the details of my shifty work, but my suggestions turned one of them into a Stakes horse.

What did i say ?

"get rid of the excercise rider"

why ?

i asked "her" what she thought of Jerry Bailey

she said: "who's that"

true story, funny eh, a good excercise rider is one of the most important factors in developing 2 year olds.

All i can offer you in the way of positive thinking is keep working at it, believe that what you put in is what you'll get out, and who knows, maybe someday me and you will be battling it out in the Kentucky Derby.

[CryingForTheHorses]

At this rate I wont make it for "The Tin Pan Derby"