Some facts not being seen by the neocons

[ljb]

Thought this data was interesting:
By now most people who read liberal blogs are aware that George W. Bush signed a law in Texas that expressly gave hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there was no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. It is called the Texas Futile Care Law. Under this law, a baby was removed from life support against his mother's wishes in Texas just this week. A 68 year old man was given a temporary reprieve by the Texas courts just yesterday.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are also aware that Republicans have voted en masse to pull the plug (no pun intended) on medicaid funding that pays for the kind of care that someone like Terry Schiavo and many others who are not so severely brain damaged need all across this country.

Those of us who read liberal blogs also understand that that the tort reform that is being contemplated by the Republican congress would preclude malpractice claims like that which has paid for Terry Schiavo's care thus far.

Those of us who read liberal blogs are aware that the bankruptcy bill will make it even more difficult for families who suffer a catastrophic illness like Terry Schiavo's because they will not be able to declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start when the gargantuan medical bills become overwhelming.

And those of us who read liberal blogs also know that this grandstanding by the congress is a purely political move designed to appease the religious right and that the legal maneuverings being employed would be anathema to any true small government conservative.

Those who don't read liberal blogs, on the other hand, are seeing a spectacle on television in which the news anchors repeatedly say that the congress is "stepping in to save Terry Schiavo" mimicking the unctuous words of Tom Delay as they grovel and leer at the family and nod sympathetically at the sanctimonious phonies who are using this issue for their political gain.

This is why we cannot trust the mainstream media. Most people get their news from television. And television is presenting this issue as a round the clock one dimensional soap opera pitting the "family", the congress and the church against this woman's husband and the judicial system that upheld Terry Schiavo's right and explicit request that she be allowed to die if extraordinary means were required to keep her alive. The ghoulish infotainment industry is making a killing by acceding once again to trumped up right wing sensationalism.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, you should applaud this kind of thinking and actions by President Bush. If true, it kind of mimics your beloved John Kerry's flip flopping on issues, does it not? You should be overjoyed. It's kind of like having Kerry briefly in the White House....

[sq764]

When Kennedy was president, the press never reported that he had affairs, did they? Truth be told, he had dozens of affairs during his time in the White House..

What is your point in all of this exactly? That the media reports what they want? Well duh..

[ljb]

Well, you should applaud this kind of thinking and actions by President Bush. If true, it kind of mimics your beloved John Kerry's flip flopping on issues, does it not? You should be overjoyed. It's kind of like having Kerry briefly in the White House....
I don't know Pa, this kinda sounds like a one line smart ass remark. You have not addressed any of the issues posted in the original note.

[ljb]

When Kennedy was president, the press never reported that he had affairs, did they? Truth be told, he had dozens of affairs during his time in the White House..

What is your point in all of this exactly? That the media reports what they want? Well duh..
Sq,
Please see my note to PA,
You also fail to address any of the issues posted in the original note.

[Secretariat]

LJB,

Thought provoking post. I have also noticed the media circus around this. To be honest I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. From a emotional point I empathize with both Ms. Schivao's family and with her husband. I'm sure it's been unbelievably difficult for both. And your points of Congress being able to push this through so quickly, but we can't get prescription drugs from Canada cheaper which would benefit "millions" of people versus the latest Dateline individual story worry me a bit. How many medical stories are out there everyday which don't get the same coverage I wonder?

I'm also unsure of the constitutional ramifications of the legislature overriding the judicial branch when they don't agree with their decisions. From what Iv'e seen they are going to find the bill just passed unconstitutional.

[sq764]

Sq,
Please see my note to PA,
You also fail to address any of the issues posted in the original note.
You said 'This is why you can never trust mainstream media'..

I addressed that with my example.. Proving you could never trust mainstream media, why start now?

[ljb]

Sq,
You are right. I was actually more interested in the other points in the note. But I repeat, you are right about the mainstream media. I stand corrected.

[Tom]

I will address your points......

This message is hidden because ljb is on your ignore list (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/profile.php?do=editlist).</SPAN>


:jump: :jump: :jump:

[sq764]

Sq,
You are right. I was actually more interested in the other points in the note. But I repeat, you are right about the mainstream media. I stand corrected.
The one thing I can respond to is that I really think you underestimate the amount of intelligent Republicans out in this great country. You seem to think that Republicans only care about Republican news.This could be said about Dems too. I don't see the point here..

You seem to think that all people that voted for Bush were duped.. Did you ever think that maybe they voted for Bush simply because they believed in his ideals, his plan, his beliefs?

Yes, there were 'blind' votes for Bush.. Votes that were made based on gay marriages and other agendas that were diversions.. But is that any worse
than a Dem vote for "the one not named Bush"?

How many Kerry voters actually knew more about Kerry's ideals and plan than they knew how much they hated Bush? I bet a small minority..

[Secretariat]

SQ,

Count me in that small minority.

[ljb]

The one thing I can respond to is that I really think you underestimate the amount of intelligent Republicans out in this great country. You seem to think that Republicans only care about Republican news.This could be said about Dems too. I don't see the point here..

You seem to think that all people that voted for Bush were duped.. Did you ever think that maybe they voted for Bush simply because they believed in his ideals, his plan, his beliefs?

Yes, there were 'blind' votes for Bush.. Votes that were made based on gay marriages and other agendas that were diversions.. But is that any worse
than a Dem vote for "the one not named Bush"?

How many Kerry voters actually knew more about Kerry's ideals and plan than they knew how much they hated Bush? I bet a small minority..

And what does any of this have to do with the original note ?

[sq764]

And what does any of this have to do with the original note ?
"Most people get their news from television"

No, most people are a little more educated than you think..

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know Pa, this kinda sounds like a one line smart ass remark. You have not addressed any of the issues posted in the original note.

I don't agree (surprise)!

I interpreted your original post to mean that President Bush is flip-flopping on "pulling the plug" issues. I responded in kind. Don't mistake a bit of levity (though levity is not very appropriate for this topic) for smart-ass mean spirited posts.

It's a fine line, I know. That's why they pay me the big bucks to be the admin here.

[ljb]

PA,
Well ok then. I wasn't sure so I figured I had better check with you. IMHO the only flip-flopping i see is his signing a bill in Texas to allow pulling the plug and now saying "in cases like this life has to be the determining factor" or something quite similiar to that. This to me is just pandering to the religious right.
However if you take the whole message in thought, it appears that the Bush gang is not being very nice to us common folks.
Oh and about the large dollars you get for being board administrator. That will have to be our secret. ;)

[ljb]

"Most people get their news from television"

No, most people are a little more educated than you think..
I think there are many well educated people. But what does education have to do with where one gets his news? I believe most people get their news from television . Meaning most people do not read newspapers or use other sources for news. Now this is not to say some people don't get their news from Jay Leno or Dave Letterman or Jon Stewert, but it is still television.
Oh and what about the other issues mentioned in this thread?

[sq764]

I think there are many well educated people. But what does education have to do with where one gets his news? I believe most people get their news from television . Meaning most people do not read newspapers or use other sources for news. Now this is not to say some people don't get their news from Jay Leno or Dave Letterman or Jon Stewert, but it is still television.
Oh and what about the other issues mentioned in this thread?
LJB, tell me one thing.. Where does the Democratic Party stand on the right to die issue? From the latest 'vote', they seem split almost equally...

Right or wrong, at least you know where the Republicans stand on the issue. Do you even know where the other side stands?

[ljb]

Sq, there is a thread on this board titled "let her die". Perhaps your query should be posted there.

[sq764]

Sq, there is a thread on this board titled "let her die". Perhaps your query should be posted there.
You commented:

"Those of us who read liberal blogs are also aware that Republicans have voted en masse to pull the plug (no pun intended) on medicaid funding that pays for the kind of care that someone like Terry Schiavo and many others who are not so severely brain damaged need all across this country."


Now my post pertains directly to this point, considering you only included half the story... Why isn't it of interest to you that half of the Dems voted to pull the plug and half did not?

Or, if you are so concerned about this horrible decision, aren't you puzzled or disappointed that half the Dems voted with Bush?

[ljb]

Sq,
What are you talking about medicare or the Schiavo case?

[ljb]

From sq
Right or wrong, at least you know where the Republicans stand on the issue. Do you even know where the other side stands? "
Sq,
Do you know where Bush stands on this issue? In Texas he signed a bill which gives the hospitals the right to pull the plug inspite of the family's wishes. If the family has no insurance or not enough money to pay for the care.
Course Bush is not really a republican, he is more of a neocon.

[sq764]

From sq
Right or wrong, at least you know where the Republicans stand on the issue. Do you even know where the other side stands? "
Sq,
Do you know where Bush stands on this issue? In Texas he signed a bill which gives the hospitals the right to pull the plug inspite of the family's wishes. If the family has no insurance or not enough money to pay for the care.
Course Bush is not really a republican, he is more of a neocon.

The Texas bill deals with enhancing critically ill patients and prevents hospitals from delivering treatment that could save their lives.

And if you researched further, Bush, vetoed a law in 1997 that gave the familities 3 days to find an alternative hospital if they could not afford treatment..

Please tell the whole story.

[sq764]

Sq,
What are you talking about medicare or the Schiavo case?
Both, please tell me where the Dems stand on each issue.

[ljb]

The Texas bill deals with enhancing critically ill patients and prevents hospitals from delivering treatment that could save their lives.

And if you researched further, Bush, vetoed a law in 1997 that gave the familities 3 days to find an alternative hospital if they could not afford treatment..

Please tell the whole story.
Well glad to hear the Texas bill prevents hospitals from delivering treatment that could save their lives.
Bush vetoed a law in 97 that gave the families 3 days to find an alternative hospital if they could not afford treatment. This must be what he calls compassionet conservatiism. The bill he signed gives the patients 10 days to find an alternative hospital before the hospital can pull the cord.

[ljb]

Both, please tell me where the Dems stand on each issue.
unfortunately I cannot speak for the Dems only for myself. First on Medicare the neocons have recently implemented a new drug program which created a windfall for the drug companies and a massive burden on the American taxpayer. I did not approve of that.
Second on the Schiavo case I think all honest republicans should hang their heads in shame for allowing their party to be taken over by a small group of rightwing christian zealots.

[sq764]

Well glad to hear the Texas bill prevents hospitals from delivering treatment that could save their lives.
Bush vetoed a law in 97 that gave the families 3 days to find an alternative hospital if they could not afford treatment. This must be what he calls compassionet conservatiism. The bill he signed gives the patients 10 days to find an alternative hospital before the hospital can pull the cord.
Ok, you give the solution.. What is your solution to who picks up the tab if the patient's family cannot? What if 10 days turns into 15 years and its in the 10s of millions?

[sq764]

unfortunately I cannot speak for the Dems only for myself. First on Medicare the neocons have recently implemented a new drug program which created a windfall for the drug companies and a massive burden on the American taxpayer. I did not approve of that.
Second on the Schiavo case I think all honest republicans should hang their heads in shame for allowing their party to be taken over by a small group of rightwing christian zealots.
You did vote for the Democrats, right? And you have stated that you are fully aware of all of their stances, right? Or is this something you do not concern yourself with?

[Equineer]

You did vote for the Democrats, right? And you have stated that you are fully aware of all of their stances, right? Or is this something you do not concern yourself with?Cows will face in the same direction when they ruminate, and sheep conveniently mob so that one Kelpie can fold them.

However, only the most superficially informed voters emulate cows or sheep.

[PaceAdvantage]

Second on the Schiavo case I think all honest republicans should hang their heads in shame for allowing their party to be taken over by a small group of rightwing christian zealots.

I think much of the discord in off-topic can be attributed to mischaracterizations such as this that was just posted by ljb. It's insulting.

[ljb]

I think much of the discord in off-topic can be attributed to mischaracterizations such as this that was just posted by ljb. It's insulting.
Pa, I used to respond to notes such as yours with a "truth bites em in the arse" comment but trying to comply with the guidelines my response is as follows:

If you think this is a mischaracterization, explain to me why the President flew back from Texas, why Frist and Delay created a special law to make a federal case out of something that ,rightfully, had been settled in state courts.
A majority of Americans, including Republicans think the Federal government should stay out of this case. It is only a small group of Christian zealots that are pushing for federal intervention. They are succeeding because they are well organized in their campaign and have developed an exceptional email process.
I could go on with an explanation of Frist's presidential ambitions and Delay's quest for power but, brevity is more my style.

[sq764]

Pa,
A majority of Americans, including Republicans think the Federal government should stay out of this case. It is only a small group of Christian zealots that are pushing for federal intervention.
LJB, I am just curious.. When you say 'A majority of AMericans, including Republicans', where do you get this data? Is this factual, a rough estimate based on an unscientific study, or just your guess?

[ljb]

This is based on the last poll from ABC news. On another thread one of this boards staunches supporters of Bush has voiced his displeasure with this action.

Here is a quote from a Republican representative for you and Pa to peruse.
"My party is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing," said Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut, one of five House Republicans who voted against the bill. "This couldn't be a more classic case of a state responsibility."

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy," Mr. Shays said. "There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

[sq764]

This is based on the last poll from ABC news.
Thank you for clarifying.

[PaceAdvantage]

They are succeeding because they are well organized in their campaign and have developed an exceptional email process.

Email? You're kidding, right? Nobody pays attention to MY emails!!!

[ljb]

Mine either. However when a politician gets over 100,000 emails they count them as votes. And react accordingly. As I said, this group has a very effective email program. Could be they have a spammer on their payroll.